Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

PK Fire does not activate on shields.

Ness is extremely easy to react to in a set, and we've seen time and time again players nullifying Ness by either 1) changing strategy/playstyle, or 2) changing character. He's not a safe tournament pick, I don't feel, and we've only seen the meta develop in the way it has in the past for him in each Smash game.

He's good though. Just very counter-play-able and not able to counter-play against the counter-play that defeats him, which is a big deal. Kind of the same thing Mac has to deal with. I welcome further development in his game, however, and will love to see how players cope.

 

[Z'zgashi]

the only character with absolute safty on shield is shiek.

I didnt say absolute safety, I meant anything even somewhat safe lol. Only thing on shield Yoshi has is fair, and even if youre frame perfect with it, its punishable.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

PK Fire does not activate on shields.

Ness is extremely easy to react to in a set, and we've seen time and time again players nullifying Ness by either 1) changing strategy/playstyle, or 2) changing character. He's not a safe tournament pick, I don't feel, and we've only seen the meta develop in the way it has in the past for him in each Smash game.

He's good though. Just very counter-play-able and not able to counter-play against the counter-play that defeats him, which is a big deal. Kind of the same thing Mac has to deal with. I welcome further development in his game, however, and will love to see how players cope.

It didn't in Brawl, does in Smash 4, at least at or near the end of its trajectory. That or I'm tripping on acid whenever I fight Ness.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It didn't in Brawl, does in Smash 4, at least at or near the end of its trajectory. That or I'm tripping on acid whenever I fight Ness.

You're tripping. PK Fire detonating on shield is a PM thing unless that got removed when I wasn't looking.

Alternatively, it's shield poking you.

 

[HeroMystic]

PK Fire definitely does not detonate on shield. If it did, I wouldn't be grinning whenever I powershield PK Fire and then proceed to grab him.

 

[David Viran]

the only character with absolute safty on shield is shiek.

Are you talking about all together or just individual move wise?

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

You're tripping. PK Fire detonating on shield is a PM thing unless that got removed when I wasn't looking.

Alternatively, it's shield poking you.

That's exactly what it is. I main a character that has a bad shield and a large hurtbox. Is Arcthunder not supposed to detonate on shields either? Because that move also pokes R.O.B.'s shield.

Sometimes it's like the area that R.O.B.'s shield covers is proportional to how much Hawaii covers Earth.

 

[Conda]

That's exactly what it is. I main a character that has a bad shield and a large hurtbox. Is Arcthunder not supposed to detonate on shields either? Because that move also pokes R.O.B.'s shield.

Sometimes it's like the area that R.O.B.'s shield covers is proportional to how much Hawaii covers Earth.

Arcfire detonates on shield, PK Fire doesn't. Old news, but happy to help you out if you weren't clear on how they worked yet.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's exactly what it is. I main a character that has a bad shield and a large hurtbox. Is Arcthunder not supposed to detonate on shields either? Because that move also pokes R.O.B.'s shield.

Sometimes it's like the area that R.O.B.'s shield covers is proportional to how much Hawaii covers Earth.

Arcthunder and Arcfire do detonate on shield. Blame the fact that it's literally magic, I guess.

 

[Conda]

They have limited uses, and Robin is a very different character.

This topic is a bit 4-months-ago. Let's continue discussing current evolutions in the metagame.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Are you talking about all together or just individual move wise?

move wise.

 

[David Viran]

move wise.

Number wise not exactly like zss's uair actually has decent horizontal range along with having the same amount of landing lag but does 8% instead of 5% like sheiks fair which means more sheild stun and being technically safer. There are some other factors like zss's uair being alot harder to space correctly but I was just saying that she does not have the safest moves individually in the game but all together she probably does.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Arcthunder splays out into the X hitbox on contact because of its limited uses.

Too bad that "on contact" part is applied liberally. Fireballs, Trick Shot, PKThunder, Eggs, Banana, etc. all stop it. If the projectile was transcendant like Sheik's Needles, then it would be a hell of a move.

That can be said for all of the Thunder spells, actually. Each charge is missing one thing to it that could make it a mighty projectile that justifies its limited count: Thunder and high/spikebox-esque hitstun, Arcthunder and transcendency, Thoron and being unblockable, and so on. As it is now, the projectile's solid, but nothing that a quick shield or projectile doesn't stop, and then Robin's out of a Thunder book and oh lord here we go.

 

[Radical Larry]

(Quick query, I intentionally do make stupid posts to give a good laugh. I can actually make legitimate posts, just like this.)

I find using Arcfire for shield pressure and mind-games useful with Thoron. Basically, casting an Arcfire on the shield for me results in my opponent letting guards down and allowing me to use Thoron. While it doesn't always work, it's a good thing to use. It's even better if the opponent is caught in Arcfire, making a combo of Arcfire > Thoron.

Though if I haven't fully charged Robin's N-Spec, I could use Arcthunder after Arcfire, and lead up to a brutal combo with the Levin Sword via SH F-Air or SH Pivoted B-Air.

 

[Smog Frog]

isnt sonic really safe on shield too? or is that just spin dash/charge?

 

[Unknownkid]

(Quick query, I intentionally do make stupid posts to give a good laugh.)

Frick I knew it! So you were trolling! Or is he trolling about his trolling and he believes in his radical statements? I am confused.

Anyways, what is the downside or counter to Sheik's Piercing Needle? It appears to be upgrade and more spammable than Default.

 

[meleebrawler]

Arcthunder splays out into the X hitbox on contact because of its limited uses.

Too bad that "on contact" part is applied liberally. Fireballs, Trick Shot, PKThunder, Eggs, Banana, etc. all stop it. If the projectile was transcendant like Sheik's Needles, then it would be a hell of a move.

That can be said for all of the Thunder spells, actually. Each charge is missing one thing to it that could make it a mighty projectile that justifies its limited count: Thunder and high/spikebox-esque hitstun, Arcthunder and transcendency, Thoron and being unblockable, and so on. As it is now, the projectile's solid, but nothing that a quick shield or projectile doesn't stop, and then Robin's out of a Thunder book and oh lord here we go.

Maybe Robin should stop wasting time using up the books and just throw them immediately,
since apparently a tome hurts more than a bolt of lightning, or any spell really.

 

[Nobie]

I have a simple, or perhaps not so simple question: what is Bowser Jr's typical game plan?

I would be asking this in the Bowser Jr. forums but I feel that I kind of want this to lead to a more general discussion of characters' game plans both in isolation and vs. specific character archetypes.

The thing that puzzles me about Bowser Jr. is that other characters, whether I use them or not, I can get a pretty good idea of what they want to do, but for Bowser Jr. I just have no idea, even after watching matches, even after losing to Bowser Jrs.

Samus, for example, is not considered a good character by many, but there's a rough idea of how her moves work together. A lot of her moves have gaps, and almost nothing but charge shot is guaranteed, so you have to basically condition your opponent while taking a few risks and gambles that you've picked the right decision and they haven't; very rock-paper-scissors. Charge Shot is the lynchpin of this, and punishes opponents for hesitating or sticking something out at the wrong time.

Palutena is, as others have described, a complex nest of powerful gimmicks that are meant to make up for her otherwise lackluster attributes. Zelda is arguably similar.

What is Bowser Jr (or any other Koopaling if you'd prefer)?

 

[thehard]

Bowser Jr. is: Side-B cancels, Up-B to F-airs, and Mechakoopas.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My inexperienced one-word summary of Bowser Jr. is "trickster." He's not particularly fast or powerful or anything, at least not compared to the real speedsters and powerhouses, but he has a few tricks.

The question is if these tricks are legit or just gimmicks. And I don't know the answer to that. (Like I said, inexperienced.)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Samus, for example, is not considered a good character by many, but there's a rough idea of how her moves work together. A lot of her moves have gaps, and almost nothing but charge shot is guaranteed, so you have to basically condition your opponent while taking a few risks and gambles that you've picked the right decision and they haven't; very rock-paper-scissors. Charge Shot is the lynchpin of this, and punishes opponents for hesitating or sticking something out at the wrong time.

?

What are ya talking about bruh? Just get em above u and spam u air.

 

[Dre89]

@ Dre89

I don't even need to write a long-winded essay on this. It's elementary.

Playing the game in a competitive (offline) setting and knowing a lot of **** > not playing the game in a competitive (offline) setting and knowing a lot of ****.

If somebody has solid theory and whatnot, then tl; dr, they shouldn't be immediately discarded. I agree with you on that much. But, if you're weighing in against the experience of someone that can emphatically show you otherwise, with raw actualized playtime with many different kinds of players, backed by their own data and research, you better have more than simple ****ing footage on Youtube, For Glory, and locals laying out the foundation of your argument. That's why I try to never presume anything when it comes to my knowledge of the game.

Smooth Criminal

I don't understand why you're assuming I'm resorting to personal experience when I have not once mentioned my experiences. The only time I mentioned them was to point out that what I'm arguing here contradicts my personal experiences (ie. me gconstantly getting bodied by a Diddy). I've just looked at the frame data and tool kits of the characers and deduced that Sheik and Pika are better when optimised at high level of play.

As for presumption, high level players agree with me at least partially, or at least did very recently. So in a sense, I have experience on my side. I've also backed up everything I've said. I said that Pika and Sheik are better than Diddy because they can camp, have better frame data (Pika's may be debatable) and have less defensive flaws (ie. they can recover). I said that their lack of KO power is compensated for by their superior gimping games. I also said that I think they both beat Diddy 1v1 because they can camp him and force him to approach. Even when Diddy does get in, he's still dealing with characters with equally aggressive frame data and tools. It's not like someone like Megaman, who he wrecks once he gets inside.

Could you please point out what part of that has anything to do with my personal experience

 

[Project Quarantine]

I have a simple, or perhaps not so simple question: what is Bowser Jr's typical game plan?

I would be asking this in the Bowser Jr. forums but I feel that I kind of want this to lead to a more general discussion of characters' game plans both in isolation and vs. specific character archetypes.

The thing that puzzles me about Bowser Jr. is that other characters, whether I use them or not, I can get a pretty good idea of what they want to do, but for Bowser Jr. I just have no idea, even after watching matches, even after losing to Bowser Jrs.

Samus, for example, is not considered a good character by many, but there's a rough idea of how her moves work together. A lot of her moves have gaps, and almost nothing but charge shot is guaranteed, so you have to basically condition your opponent while taking a few risks and gambles that you've picked the right decision and they haven't; very rock-paper-scissors. Charge Shot is the lynchpin of this, and punishes opponents for hesitating or sticking something out at the wrong time.

Palutena is, as others have described, a complex nest of powerful gimmicks that are meant to make up for her otherwise lackluster attributes. Zelda is arguably similar.

What is Bowser Jr (or any other Koopaling if you'd prefer)?

I'm not a Bowser Junior main, but I do play him some and I have seen a few players use him.

To my knowledge, he is a semi-rushdown character that utilizes mechakoopa and side b to set up approaches and strings. As far as the footsie game goes, he can do some cheeky spacing with aerials that allow him to quickly back out and reapproach. However, I think he struggles a bit because he, frankly, doesn't do anything exceptionally effectively. Jr. can edgeguard well, but he first needs to force opponents off. His smash attacks are powerful, but they are slow and punishable. The side b is the only consistently reliable option he has.

Bowser Jr. is: Side-B cancels, Up-B to F-airs, and Mechakoopas.

I don't think you can "up b to fair," but you can hammer if that's what you meant.

Feel free to correct any of what I said if you feel you know something I missed

 

[Hippieslayer]

You can replace Solid with "ace", Exceptional, Or Jesus-tapdancing-on-his-bathwater-good.
It won't change the argument.

Nope. Stop playing stupid.

You know that solid is an understatement.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...no.

Just no. I am not doing this with you, Dre. My point stands about raw, tangible experience versus what equates to be anecdotal fluff. You have done nothing to dispel/diffuse it; you're just repeating yourself like an echo.

Also, to reiterate: Frame data isn't everything. @Ffamran and others already made their case here.

Just...stop.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't understand why you're assuming I'm resorting to personal experience when I have not once mentioned my experiences. The only time I mentioned them was to point out that what I'm arguing here contradicts my personal experiences (ie. me gconstantly getting bodied by a Diddy). I've just looked at the frame data and tool kits of the characers and deduced that Sheik and Pika are better when optimised at high level of play.

As for presumption, high level players agree with me at least partially, or at least did very recently. So in a sense, I have experience on my side. I've also backed up everything I've said. I said that Pika and Sheik are better than Diddy because they can camp, have better frame data (Pika's may be debatable) and have less defensive flaws (ie. they can recover). I said that their lack of KO power is compensated for by their superior gimping games. I also said that I think they both beat Diddy 1v1 because they can camp him and force him to approach. Even when Diddy does get in, he's still dealing with characters with equally aggressive frame data and tools. It's not like someone like Megaman, who he wrecks once he gets inside.

Could you please point out what part of that has anything to do with my personal experience

im really getting tired of reading basically the same post.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I don't understand why you're assuming I'm resorting to personal experience when I have not once mentioned my experiences. The only time I mentioned them was to point out that what I'm arguing here contradicts my personal experiences (ie. me gconstantly getting bodied by a Diddy). I've just looked at the frame data and tool kits of the characers and deduced that Sheik and Pika are better when optimised at high level of play.

As for presumption, high level players agree with me at least partially, or at least did very recently. So in a sense, I have experience on my side. I've also backed up everything I've said. I said that Pika and Sheik are better than Diddy because they can camp, have better frame data (Pika's may be debatable) and have less defensive flaws (ie. they can recover). I said that their lack of KO power is compensated for by their superior gimping games. I also said that I think they both beat Diddy 1v1 because they can camp him and force him to approach. Even when Diddy does get in, he's still dealing with characters with equally aggressive frame data and tools. It's not like someone like Megaman, who he wrecks once he gets inside.

Could you please point out what part of that has anything to do with my personal experience

I'n not an experienced Pikachu Player, but I personally don't think camping with Pikachu's Thunderjolt is effective unless the opponent is off stage considering the move has so much ending lag after its use.

 

[Dre89]

Well you do it in the air so the jolt is less punishable. It's much easier with platforms.

im really getting tired of reading basically the same post.

I wouldn't have to repeat it if people didn't keep condescending me and assuming I'm resorting to personal experience.

 

[NairWizard]

Today Master Hand tried to edgeguard my Sheik and got KOed by Vanish.

OP as heck

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I wouldn't have to repeat it if people didn't keep condescending me and assuming I'm resorting to personal experience.

weither or not its from personal or professional your points have been addressed a while back and this is needlessly long over a stupid miscomunication.
All that was salvaged from this mess called a debate was that pros have an opinion and they can also be wrong, like everyone else in the world. Everything else has been useless pratter on things that don't combat actual points. Litterally nothing was gained from this conversation. Just nit picking at specifics.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

...

...no.

Just no. I am not doing this with you, Dre. My point stands about raw, tangible experience versus what equates to be anecdotal fluff. You have done nothing to dispel/diffuse it; you're just repeating yourself like an echo.

Also, to reiterate: Frame data isn't everything. @Ffamran and others already made their case here.

Just...stop.

Smooth Criminal

Frame data isn't everything but it's extremely important nobody would complain about diddy's uair if it was 13 frames as opposed to 3. Hitboxes matter but frames are extremely important that's why the character with the best range isn't the best character in the game

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why am I not surprised that you would miss the point, too.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Djent]

All the prophecies coming true on VGBC right now.

-GnW does well but still gets wrecked by early KOs
-Peach is OP and slaps silly old Lucario around
-Mayweather and Pacquiao are "wrestlers"

 

[Conda]

So is this an argument between people who think characters in fighters have many different important attributes, and people who feel characters in fighters have only one important attribute: frame data.

There's % dealt, knockback, range, active frames, mobility, disjointedness, height/position, and more. Sure, fast frame data can make any attack more powerful and prevent the character being taken advantage of, but that's not the only important thing.

 

[thehard]

All the prophecies coming true on VGBC right now.

-GnW does well but still gets wrecked by early KOs
-Peach is OP and slaps silly old Lucario around
-Mayweather and Pacquiao are "wrestlers"

Man G&W's up throw wrecks fast-fallers. Also I got really excited seeing Peach on stream, especially how she gave Boss some initial trouble

 

[Smog Frog]

how the **** can you get excited by this peach lmao, lookin like dabuz sr even

 

[HeavyLobster]

how the **** can you get excited by this peach lmao, lookin like dabuz sr even

Because it's a character without a tail, banana peels, or monkey noises.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

how the **** can you get excited by this peach lmao, lookin like dabuz sr even

Because high level Peach play in a tournament setting is relatively rare to the best of my knowledge?

 

[incrediblej]

So what topic are we on peach or what attribute is most important for an attack I don't want to hear the latter because that's impossible to figure out because every attribute has something over another attribute.

I don't main peach but is there any high level players in tournaments using her floats a lot because I'm sure that's her strategy

 

[Dre89]

weither or not its from personal or professional your points have been addressed a while back and this is needlessly long over a stupid miscomunication.
All that was salvaged from this mess called a debate was that pros have an opinion and they can also be wrong, like everyone else in the world. Everything else has been useless pratter on things that don't combat actual points. Litterally nothing was gained from this conversation. Just nit picking at specifics.

Well people would have learned that hoo hah is DIable as low as 30% (although you can still get faired) if they didn't know that already.

Hoo ha isn't even the dumbest thing about Diddy. It's how fair and banana alone shut down characters who can't air camp.

People might not have changed their opinions but they may have learned little facts, like Sheik's perfectly spaced fair being unpunishable on shield, except for maybe by nanas. Little things like that.