Character Competitive Impressions

[Dre89]

Frame data isn't everything. If it was, then Falco would be ranked much, much higher and Captain Falcon wouldn't be all that great.

Falcon is mobile and has good frames in enough moves that his punish and combo games are good. The reason why he's not top 3 at the moment is because he gets camped and doesn't have safe approach options. That's basically my point, that the two best characters are the ones that force you to approach them, but also have the frame data of aggressive characters to combat you when you get inside. They can't kill but they compensate with great gimping games.

 

[Shaya]

Results was a really small part of the point.
Those statements from Zero/M2K are very very old. Unless you have up to date impressions from them, I'm not aware of them.
And Rain and Nietono's list wasn't heavily touted as perfectly accurate and reflects upon a different metagame. Shi-gaming's list had Diddy still as no.1. It's contentious.

I didn't say Sheik was bad at 100%.

His immense camp game backed by what? I think thunder jolts are solid. Do they define match ups? Not really. Is anything you say actually going to mean anything? Will you actually be able to go in depth about anything you claim? No. But you will throw me circular arguments over and over again, I don't look forward to it (to outsiders, the fact Dre has finally found this thread really really worries me).
Dash Grabs are the most powerful moves in this game, they have the least amount of game play counters to them than everything else. Whiffed grabs on spot dodges being "advantageous" to the grabber? Say's a lot.
Your personal experiences does not mean he doesn't have a strong camp game, rush down (no one has the safe dash ins like Diddy does), frame data or combo potential. I'm not sure what makes Diddy free when his camp is penetrated while Sheik isn't. But how many times are you going to bring up camp games when it isn't even what makes Diddy no.1 in this game? I know exactly why you think Sheik forcing approaches 'best' means she's best, it's a great quality.

I'm pretty sure frame data backs me up fine (on Diddy). Auto cancels, hitbox durations, damage, low start up, low cool downs, long range/huge priority. Sheik has better frame data, but so much of that is over-compensated in Diddy's moveset (comparatively). Pika's frame data beyond Up/Down Tilts is... average, his specs with them are also... not that much better than average. His fast aerials aren't able to be used like other fast aerials in this game.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't know why you keep mentioning lack of a tourney results for Pika. I specifically said I think he's theoretically better than Diddy but won't get the results to prove it now that ESAM has quit. I also said that from a pragmatic perspective, there's no need to bother learning Pika instead of Diddy, unless other people do pick up Pika and start abusing his advantages over Diddy. At this point in time no one is doing that so there's no reason to not pick Diddy.

You can talk about how you've seen and analysed high level play for years. But at the end of the day, when you say Diddy is better than Sheik you are disagreeing with players like Zero, M2K, Rain and Nietono. All players who are not only better than you (no disrespect) but have also seen and experienced a lot more high level play over the years than you have. Now that doesn't mean that you're automatically wrong, but trying to pull the experience card on me won't work when technically the experience card is on my side.

Also I don't get how Sheik is bad at 100% when she is one of the best gimpers in the game. I also don't get why you're talking about Pika's dtilt when the whole reason why he's good is because he has an immense camp game backed up by the frame data and combo potential of a rush-down character. This is also why Sheik is better than Diddy, because she can camp with needles but also is not free when her camp gets penetrated. They also have good recoveries and are excellent edgeguarders, which makes up for their lack of onstage KO potential.

To be honest I would've thought that someone like you who likes to study the game, and isn't afraid of an unconventional opinion would've looked at the data and realised Pika and Sheik straight up have better frame data than Diddy on top of less defensive flaws. Those count for more the higher the level of play, and the more fleshed out the meta becomes.

Ummm Pikachu's d-tilt is one of his best moves, it's right behind QA and msybe f-air for his best moves.

 

[NairWizard]

Anyone who hasn't put themselves through Brawl ICs impact of the meta is usually someone I don't see as truly understanding what the **** is going on. Putting Sheik above Diddy plainly ignores his match up skews,

There are top players claiming that Sheik is better than Diddy, top players who have experienced the Brawl ICs metagame. And it's also surprisingly short-sighted of you to say that you think that someone needs to have played a previous game to understand what's going on in the current metagame.

Blaming yourself is fine, but there are limits to your character, if Pika has game breaking abilities to overcome this, then you wouldn't be switching to Diddy or Luigi.

A 50:50 (or heck, 55:45 or 45:55) matchup with Diddy does not imply that Pikachu will snap the game in half and erase Diddy from the SD card when selected. It implies simply that when two players are playing equally well (note, emphasis, red markings, etc.), both have about equal chances of winning.

Pikachu gets punished for mistakes much more than Diddy or Luigi in the Diddy matchup.

If I'm not playing perfectly, but I'm still better than my opponent by enough to win with a lesser-played character, then switching to Diddy or Luigi is the logical choice.

Why juggle tons of different options with subtle differences in their usability, DI d-throw properly 100% of the time, mix up Quick Attack, remain constantly mobile, edgeguard consistently offstage, etc. when I can pick Diddy/Luigi instead and just grab my opponent when he tries to grab me? It's far simpler. It doesn't mean that the matchup ratios are more or less skewed. It just means that it's easier for the player to demonstrate skill when he might not be playing at his best.

However, I have admitted that I'm finding that Diddy has more tools in the matchup than he had in the past, and that's why I've dropped my ratio from 55:45 to 50:50. Pikachu has some great tools in this MU as well, including a resistance to SH f-air, a ground game comparable to Diddy's own but better because of Quick Attack, better mobility, better recovery/edgeguarding/offstage, a slightly better camping game, and a much better platform game due to QAC.

Pikachu hasn't been shown to do a single thing super-noteworthy bar a Day 1 WiiU tournament.

Losing your best representative is a pretty huge blow. I daresay that Pit and Dark Pit would be like, lower Mid Tier without Nairo, if not worse than that. Robin? Poor Robin might be bottom 5.

If you take the strength of Pika's chaining/combos and look at how his tools don't allow him to maintain a dominant positional advantage (unlike Diddy, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina) afterwards, then the pressure the player has dealing with Pikachu diminishes drastically ["oh this could happen, but it's not that debilitating to me or my game plan at all"].

Being in range of Pikachu's down-tilt is an obnoxiously bad scenario for almost every character in the game. Roll behind, get hit by up-tilt. Roll/move back, get hit by Quick Attack. Jump, and get punished because you have to hit your f-air low to the ground to hit Pikachu at all. There is counterplay for this, but the advantage is obviously in Pikachu's court when he's in that sweetspot range. And offstage, Pikachu is obviously at advantage.

I'm not going to continue this discussion for the reason that I'm sure that people are tired of the Pikachu discussion by now. Customs are here and people want to hear about other characters, not the same Pikachu debate that's been rehashed time and time again now.

To finish I will say though that as a person I have no character loyalty. If I think that Pikachu isn't offering me anything valuable in tournament, I will be the first to drop him/forget about him. I play to win. I don't play Pikachu because I like Pikachu. I play Pikachu because I believe that in a customs-off metagame he's top 3 and has a better matchup spread than just about every character. The moment I stop believing that he offers me any value (which might be true in customs), he will disappear from my roster, simple as that.

 

[Antonykun]

In other news, it's kinda suprising just how good 1/4 height min weight Mii Swordfighter is! In that height you get a bit more range than Toon Link while also getting all that speed. One time, I somehow managed to do b-air into u-air for a whopping 26%
Also D-tilt is the other trapping tool allowing for a follow-up off recovery frames. This character has left me impressed!

 

[Dre89]

Results was a really small part of the point.
Those statements from Zero/M2K are very very old. Unless you have up to date impressions from them, I'm not aware of them.
And Rain and Nietono's list wasn't heavily touted as perfectly accurate and reflects upon a different metagame. Shi-gaming's list had Diddy still as no.1. It's contentious.

I didn't say Sheik was bad at 100%.

His immense camp game backed by what? I think thunder jolts are solid. Do they define match ups? Not really. Is anything you say actually going to mean anything? Will you actually be able to go in depth about anything you claim? No. But you will throw me circular arguments over and over again, I don't look forward to it (to outsiders, the fact Dre has finally found this thread really really worries me).
Dash Grabs are the most powerful moves in this game, they have the least amount of game play counters to them than everything else. Whiffed grabs on spot dodges being "advantageous" to the grabber? Say's a lot.
Your personal experiences does not mean he doesn't have a strong camp game, rush down (no one has the safe dash ins like Diddy does), frame data or combo potential. I'm not sure what makes Diddy free when his camp is penetrated while Sheik isn't. But how many times are you going to bring up camp games when it isn't even what makes Diddy no.1 in this game?

I'm pretty sure frame data backs me up fine (on Diddy). Auto cancels, hitbox durations, damage, low start up, low cool downs, long range/huge priority. Sheik has better frame data, but so much of that is over-compensated in Diddy's moveset (comparatively). Pika's frame data beyond Up/Down Tilts is... average, his specs with them are also... not that much better than average. His fast aerials aren't able to be used like other fast aerials in this game.

I don't get what gives you the right to an opinion, but not me. I gave explanations for my arguments, just like you did. Neither of us are elite level players, so all we have to go on for our opinions are results and what we can deduce from looking at a character's data.

I never once resorted to my personal experiences. I constantly get destroyed by a Diddy, so what I say here actually contradicts my personal experience anyway.

I still don't get what makes your opinion have more weight. Are you in America constantly versing high level players? If so then you have experience. But if you're just in Australia versing our country's players my personal experience is either equal or better than yours anyway.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't get what gives you the right to an opinion, but not me. I gave explanations for my arguments, just like you did. Neither of us are elite level players, so all we have to go on for our opinions are results and what we can deduce from looking at a character's data.

I never once resorted to my personal experiences. I constantly get destroyed by a Diddy, so what I say here actually contradicts my personal experience anyway.

I still don't get what makes your opinion have more weight. Are you in America constantly versing high level players? If so then you have experience. But if you're just in Australia versing our country's players my personal experience is either equal or better than yours anyway.

For the record Shaya seems to have Zero on speed dial as Zero seems to mention him once in awhile in his YouTube videos. Does that count?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm more practical theory based and use a great deal of "experience" bias.
I'll look at things in terms of reaction speed, 'pressure' (the average to even top level "self-defeating" that occurs) and then my 6-7 years of pretty dedicated evaluating of tools in every smash game. I've been saying things much longer than 'obvious results in the meta', because I've also been lucky to see these developments outside the tournament realm. I wouldn't be surprised if I've seen more top level Pikachu play than anyone else in this thread (streams that feature all various sorts of great players I seek out that only ever have 5-10 viewers at least gives me this impression, let alone in person training and top players 'nutting out' options).
Anyone who hasn't put themselves through Brawl ICs impact of the meta is usually someone I don't see as truly understanding what the **** is going on. Putting Sheik above Diddy plainly ignores his match up skews, results and a very distinct barrier for players to succeed even if they're winning 65:35 in most game states or better. Sheik is the best character in the game at 0%, at 100% I wouldn't put her as top 5. With a stock lead I'd put her better or second best to Diddy, at stock deficit? She's quite pitiful. Diddy is always top 3 at worst in every match up in these various conditions. If you rate them linearly / as a ratio of time, then Sheik forcing a slow excruciating death definitely puts her as no.1... I guess.
Blaming yourself is fine, but there are limits to your character, if Pika has game breaking abilities to overcome this, then you wouldn't be switching to Diddy or Luigi.

Pikachu hasn't been shown to do a single thing super-noteworthy bar a Day 1 WiiU tournament. I've been using Pikachu since day1 of 3DS and had very high expectations for him and will be happy to be proven wrong.
I would put characters like Falcon and Luigi, despite having obviously weaker neutrals (and less options in disadvantage) as better as Pikachu right now because
their moves are stupid, something we almost all agree on, oh and to top it off there's ACTUAL RESULTS for them too.

Mobility is an amazing part of a character, in this game thus far it's one of the biggest attributes we're looking at. But Pikachu lacks something very distinctive, and that's pokes/spacing tools. Down Tilt does not compensate enough (if that were the case, Marth would be having a much better time against good characters). He uses the shallow design of his frame/size to give him a semblance of one, but it's "fake" and will only continue to have counter-play developed with little to expand on from Pikachu's part. If you already have a punish consistently down for when Pikachu fairs or bairs (yes, yes, grounded Pikachu is the only Pikachu, Macachu~), chances are you're going to destroy them. If you take the strength of Pika's chaining/combos and look at how his tools don't allow him to maintain a dominant positional advantage (unlike Diddy, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina) afterwards, then the pressure the player has dealing with Pikachu diminishes drastically ["oh this could happen, but it's not that debilitating to me or my game plan at all"].

I think that Shiek is the best character in the character in the game and the more the game develops the better the shieks will do.

 

[Hippieslayer]

The problem with Palutena utilt is that even though it lessens her hurtbox its own hitbox is so ****y that the likelihood of getting hit anyway or whiffing it and being punished is rather high if you use it as an anti-air.

Figures d-tilt which has way less lag is a lot better, sure the trajetory is stupid but with super speed you can combo out of it anyway.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't get what gives you the right to an opinion, but not me. I gave explanations for my arguments, just like you did. Neither of us are elite level players, so all we have to go on for our opinions are results and what we can deduce from looking at a character's data.

I never once resorted to my personal experiences. I constantly get destroyed by a Diddy, so what I say here actually contradicts my personal experience anyway.

I still don't get what makes your opinion have more weight. Are you in America constantly versing high level players? If so then you have experience. But if you're just in Australia versing our country's players my personal experience is either equal or better than yours anyway.

I may not agree with Shaya on a lot of things (Ganon, mid-tier? Really?), but he's played enough of the game right now against people here in the States to know a little better than the average Joe. In fact, iirc, he just finished going cross-country here attending a number of our tournaments and schmoozed/rubbed shoulders with some of our finest players. He may or may not even still be around, idk.

His words do have merit; not polejocking the man, just saying I would probably take what he says with more than just a grain of salt. I'd be careful trying to tackle an educated opinion like his.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

There are top players claiming that Sheik is better than Diddy, top players who have experienced the Brawl ICs metagame. And it's also surprisingly short-sighted of you to say that you think that someone needs to have played a previous game to understand what's going on in the current metagame.

When I say degenerative gameplay, there's only one such example in any prior Smash game. Seeing Sheik as better doesn't mean you didn't experience Brawl ICs. If you know what it's all about, it saves a metric TON of explaining, if you haven't experienced it as a player you may not get the 'pressure' that I intermingle with "theory" in my arguments. It must be by fluke that there are no major player breaks outs thus far in Smash4 who don't have a competitive Brawl history (no, not need, but it's pretty helpful). When a character who can be so seemingly a 'shoe in' for a certain accolade doesn't perform, you can't deny others a fair theory as to why. When you say neutral I say 0%, 100%, lead, deficit, tournament pressure, reaction speed; so on and so forth. What you choose to discard from your perception of 'viability' isn't something I'm willing to; which type of tier list is right? I've come to find ones that are based on consistency (ease to use in the meta) are far more helpful, and it doesn't always require the infallible "results", I'd be a hypocrite to say so (not like I'm not a hypocrite, but let's not get into that~). When you purely think of potential / "doing the best" then you are using a mental image you have that is yet to come to exist, that may never exist. The higher you go, usually the more obstinate those images become (as do the counter opinions to these). With a minor perspective twinge, I could happily argue Sheik is the best in the game and be 'right', but then I'd see Sheik get up thrown up aired at 60% 500 times over the next however many months and think "yuck". For Sheik to achieve my own image of her goddess form, it has a lot to do with outcamping/footsying everyone else drastically to the point of non-contention by most match ups (i.e. "Meta Knight"), Sheik not being able to afford more than 1 mistake for Diddy's 4-5 is outside of her control or my imagination to be honest

Losing your best representative is a pretty huge blow. I daresay that Pit and Dark Pit would be like, lower Mid Tier without Nairo, if not worse than that. Robin? Poor Robin might be bottom 5.

It sure is. But it's not like he was inactive for the time after that event. They definitely wouldn't be looked upon kindly in the Western-sphere, that's for sure. Robin may indeed be bottom 5, has a lot of representation in the past and still though.

The rest of your post goes on to basically explain why Pikachu has issues, "consistency". It's a story I went through my Brawl career with in Marth, I can relate (replaces 'weeks' with months->years~). Don't forget that other characters can play perfectly too. I do agree with most of your inferences, just without character loyalty I'm going to be extra critical of your opinions while you continue to pop out the diddy/luigi for when things get tough (P.S. Always critical).

I don't get what gives you the right to an opinion, but not me. I gave explanations for my arguments, just like you did.

If you have an opinion I'm going to dig on why. When you say something I refute and your response is a dodge of the point followed by your redeclaration of your opinion, for however many times over the past 4? years. I can accept most of your points on Sheik, but not how you undermine Diddy. Your impeccable timing for Pikachu is your own fault~

 

[Pazx]

This is strange, I clicked on the "Character Competitive Impressions" thread and it seems like I got taken to the "Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion". All we need is J*mwa and D*ez for some real ****posting. i see you reading this dean

I'm going to make an ITALICS STATEMENT: I don't care who the best in the game is. At this point in time, Diddy is significantly further ahead than Sheik/Pika/Sonic in terms of meta, results and overall perceived strength. In the future, with all the "potential" underneath these characters, that may be different, and when we reach 20xx maybe quick attack will be the waveshine we need, but not the one we deserve. As the meta develops I figure the top X will likely become closer and closer in terms of strength, but that's not something I plan on concerning myself with at the moment.

 

[NairWizard]

-stuff-

-more stuff-

If you value ease of use (what you call consistency) as a metric, then sure, I can agree with Diddy > Sheik. My day 1 Wii U Diddy is almost high-level; my day-7 Wii U Sheik is barely mid-level. My 3-month Sheik will be better than my 3-month Diddy, guaranteed, though I wouldn't invest 3 months into Diddy for that very reason (this is why potential matters; good to see things ahead of time).

Also, you can be critical all you want. I'll still use Pikachu to win most of the time. Doesn't matter to me if people rate him as 15th and make me look like a better player, feel free to do that. "oh hey he's amazing he's beating good players with the 15th best character, damn he somehow beat a top Diddy wow" -> I'll take me some more of that, baby.

It must be by fluke that there are no major player breaks outs thus far in Smash4 who don't have a competitive Brawl history

Or perhaps, people who like and are good at smash...continue to like and be good at smash?

le gasp

This is strange, I clicked on the "Character Competitive Impressions" thread and it seems like I got taken to the "Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion"

what the, this doesn't make any sense; I get that Shaya is Australian (I'm not), but where are we discussing rulesets?

We're discussing metrics by which to rank characters, obviously not irrelevant to a topic about competitive impressions

unless you mean a bunch of Australians were viewing this thread

 

[Shaya]

My 3-month Sheik will be better than my 3-month Diddy, guaranteed, though I wouldn't invest 3 months into Diddy for that very reason (this is why potential matters; good to see things ahead of time).

Maybe your 3 month sheik will be better than your 3 month diddy. But that may not be the case for anyone else. 3 months (and more) has passed. Do Sheik results get better (in any tangible way)? Customs aren't helping much of that unfortunately.

Also, you can be critical all you want. I'll still use Pikachu to win most of the time. Doesn't matter to me if people rate him as 15th and make me look like a better player, feel free to do that. "oh hey he's amazing he's beating good players with the 15th best character, damn he somehow beat a top Diddy wow" -> I'll take me some more of that, baby.

I want it for you, don't worry. I want it for any Pikachu really. I know many still dedicated players who love him.

what the, this doesn't make any sense; I get that Shaya is Australian (I'm not), but where are we discussing rulesets?

We're discussing metrics by which to rank characters, obviously not irrelevant to a topic about competitive impressions

unless you mean a bunch of Australians were viewing this thread

Dre found the australian ruleset thread earlier than this thread.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm a dedicated Pikachu player who hates Pikachu, does that count for anything?

 

[Nocally]

I'm a dedicated Pikachu player who hates Pikachu, does that count for anything?

Is it a; "To defeat my enemy, I must be/think like my enemy." thing?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is it a; "To defeat my enemy, I must be/think like my enemy." thing?

No, it's a "god dammit I hate this ****ing rat why can't I play anyone else half decently". Not entirely true, obviously - I play a halfway decent ZSS. But sometimes I just have to sit back and spam some goddamn jolts.

 

[Shaya]

I'm a dedicated Quick Attack player, I may accidentally up tilt from time to time.
I like practicing all the mobility specials in this game though.
I'm looking for PERFECT BRAWL BATTLEFIELD META KNIGHT in Smash4, unfortunately Pika is the closest thing to it :<
BUT IT ISN'T SHUTTLE LOOP SWOOSHING SOUND EFFECTS.

Life without is hollow.

I do put a lot of weight into edge cancelling as a heavy skill measure for this game in the future.
I really really really wish ZSS could edge cancel her spike (back) kick from down-b.

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

In other news, it's kinda suprising just how good 1/4 height min weight Mii Swordfighter is! In that height you get a bit more range than Toon Link while also getting all that speed. One time, I somehow managed to do b-air into u-air for a whopping 26%
Also D-tilt is the other trapping tool allowing for a follow-up off recovery frames. This character has left me impressed!

So, when it comes to Swordfighter, it's better to change C-Stick option from Smash Attack into regular Attack to use those tilts easier?

 

[Luco]

This is strange, I clicked on the "Character Competitive Impressions" thread and it seems like I got taken to the "Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion". All we need is J*mwa and D*ez for some real ****posting. i see you reading this dean

I'm going to make an ITALICS STATEMENT: I don't care who the best in the game is. At this point in time, Diddy is significantly further ahead than Sheik/Pika/Sonic in terms of meta, results and overall perceived strength. In the future, with all the "potential" underneath these characters, that may be different, and when we reach 20xx maybe quick attack will be the waveshine we need, but not the one we deserve. As the meta develops I figure the top X will likely become closer and closer in terms of strength, but that's not something I plan on concerning myself with at the moment.

what the, this doesn't make any sense; I get that Shaya is Australian (I'm not), but where are we discussing rulesets?

We're discussing metrics by which to rank characters, obviously not irrelevant to a topic about competitive impressions

unless you mean a bunch of Australians were viewing this thread

Dre found the australian ruleset thread earlier than this thread.

I laughed way harder at these three posts than I should have.

But back to the topic at hand, I also feel it becomes dangerous when people look too far into the future and use predictions to determine their character placings as of now. It's very possible to hit a wall that prevents your character from getting to the point where they're that good. It's why ICs never got to being first even though theoretically they should have been first (perfection on the chain grab would have just been too stronk), and it's subjective to say that your character won't hit that wall.

I dunno, though.

 

[Dre89]

I may not agree with Shaya on a lot of things (Ganon, mid-tier? Really?), but he's played enough of the game right now against people here in the States to know a little better than the average Joe. In fact, iirc, he just finished going cross-country here attending a number of our tournaments and schmoozed/rubbed shoulders with some of our finest players. He may or may not even still be around, idk.

His words do have merit; not polejocking the man, just saying I would probably take what he says with more than just a grain of salt. I'd be careful trying to tackle an educated opinion like his.

Smooth Criminal

Except what he is saying contradicts the last known opinions of at least 4 top players. So playing the experience card doesn't work in this case.

His opinion is not 'educated', or not any moreso than anyone else's here. He's not an elite level player. No one cares about how much high level play he's witnessed. It's 2015, media has made high level Smash available to everyone and everyone has seen it, so his experience of high level play is the same as every other non-elite player's.

If you have an opinion I'm going to dig on why. When you say something I refute and your response is a dodge of the point followed by your redeclaration of your opinion, for however many times over the past 4? years. I can accept most of your points on Sheik, but not how you undermine Diddy. Your impeccable timing for Pikachu is your own fault~

How have I avoided your points? Talking up Sheik and undermining Diddy go hand-in-hand when your point is merely that Sheik(and Pika) are theoretically better than Diddy.

I hope you don't think I seek to undermine Diddy just because he's my main atm. I get constantly bodied by a Diddy that is probably at least a top 5 player in our country. If anything my persnal experience contradicts what I think about the tiers,

Edit- Accidental double post

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Edit- Accidental double post

*triple

 

[Smog Frog]

what are the brawl olimar(s)/melee puff(s) in this game, if there are any?

edit: if you ask me its probably charizard.

 

[David Viran]

I'm a dedicated Quick Attack player, I may accidentally up tilt from time to time.
I like practicing all the mobility specials in this game though.
I'm looking for PERFECT BRAWL BATTLEFIELD META KNIGHT in Smash4, unfortunately Pika is the closest thing to it :<
BUT IT ISN'T SHUTTLE LOOP SWOOSHING SOUND EFFECTS.

Life without is hollow.

I do put a lot of weight into edge cancelling as a heavy skill measure for this game in the future.
I really really really wish ZSS could edge cancel her spike (back) kick from down-b.

You can edge cancel zss's down b kick.

 

[wedl!!]

what are the brawl olimar(s)/melee puff(s) in this game, if there are any?

do you mean like an underdog character everyone thinks is horse**** at release and then the hivemind realizes they're extremely strong

olimar (rofl), luigi (boss.zip) and palutena (with customs on) come to mind

in an inverse situation mac robin and bowser took their positions

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Has Shulk been getting results anywhere? Just curious.

 

[Shaya]

I laughed way harder at these three posts than I should have.

People who know... know, ya know?

Except what he is saying contradicts the last known opinions of at least 4 top players. So playing the experience card doesn't work in this case.

His opinion is not 'educated', or not any moreso than anyone else's here. He's not an elite level player. No one cares about how much high level play he's witnessed. It's 2015, media has made high level Smash available to everyone and everyone has seen it, so his experience of high level play is the same as every other non-elite player's.

And are they justifying those opinions to you? Do you understand how they came to those conclusions? No.
Top players aren't infallible. A lot of things happen outside of popular streams or 'public' discussions. If you want elite-level player opinion on something, asking them directly is usually sufficient. Not every Smash player is hyper segmented into social media, a lot of scenes with top level players do not have strong media coverage either. I thought Sheik was best in the game at the same time ZeRo/M2K did, for what it's worth. ZeRo had the best Sheik in the world (and everyone in SoCal knew it) but he made the choice to play Diddy, the same opinion you ride is one which they both believed Luigi and Mario are top 5; he didn't like Sheik against either, so Diddy it was. He would not play any other character for the last month leading up to Apex. Are you going to tell me Luigi/Mario are top 5 or are you going to cherry pick things without even knowing the context/meaning behind them? It is what you do... every single time you try to make a point in any discussion ever....

*sigh*, it's really self-defeating jumping through your hoops Dre. I will hop off here.

You can edge cancel zss's down b kick.

The forward kick (i.e. diagonal one) can 100%, but I have not seen the 'heel' or backwards kick edge cancel, at least I couldn't get it to happen on Battlefield platforms or it's stage ledges (I was practicing the timing of a ledge drop down b heel kick that reaches under the stage and timed right will **** ALL of the recoveries; I did it accidentally to Rosalina in tournament and a few times on wifi so it MUST BE AUGMENTED). If it is possible than I'm doing something super wrong and would be very happy to learn to do it (let me know).

what are the brawl olimar(s)/melee puff(s) in this game, if there are any?

edit: if you ask me its probably charizard.

Hmm, maybe the Pits? Are they too mainstream?
I think there's a little bit of hype for just about every character in the game, and the one's that don't are for a really good reason I think.
Both were considered mid tier-ish and became top right?
Could see Shulk, Peach, the Pits, Greninja and *hackcough* Falco *blows up lung, can't explain this one without losing the other coughcough*
Heck, Jigglypuffy and Kirby.
If you mean bottom tier to top? I guess it's all Palutena or "PATCH BOYS".

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Hrmm this debate is something else I tell ya.

So far ima go on the limb and say Diddy is better, NOT because hes the shiz or whatever, But simply because his meta is MUCH further ahead than any character right now. He has the largest player base (pocket diddys everywhere) and like 9 top competitve players moving his meta along at lightning speed.

Shiek could be the better character overall I dont know. But right now just in terms of sheer development Diddy is the best.

 

[TTTTTsd]

In the midst of this argument about whose opinions are valid I'd just like to chime in and say....

If it's backed up by any form of research, experience, or whatever have you, regardless of any other factors, it's at least worth considering, discussing, and thinking about. I think open-mindedness regardless of your own opinion is something that benefits like, every competitive scene ever.

Probably common knowledge but I felt like dropping this in here anyways cause I think it's REALLY important. Obviously some statements are really radical and some weigh more than others based on a slew of things, but anything with ration or notion/experience behind it is worth considering.

I think Diddy vs. Sheik falls in Diddy's favor, not really out of character strength but out of how CONSISTENT you can be with him vs. Sheik. Not even just results, Diddy's gameplan requires less precision and he gets a lot of benefits that come close to Sheik's, maybe not vs. the entire cast like her, but a majority of the commonly used viable chars he can handle, and it's a lot less taxing in comparison. By that alone I think he's a hair ahead. Just me tho.

Also yeah @ Shaya the more I mess with Falcon the better I think he is. I think the only thing that keeps him from being ridiculous is his really bad disadvantage, cause it's AWFUL when Falcon gets hit by virtually anyone.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

In the midst of this argument about whose opinions are valid I'd just like to chime in and say....

If it's backed up by any form of research, experience, or whatever have you, regardless of any other factors, it's at least worth considering, discussing, and thinking about. I think open-mindedness regardless of your own opinion is something that benefits like, every competitive scene ever.

Probably common knowledge but I felt like dropping this in here anyways cause I think it's REALLY important. Obviously some statements are really radical and some weigh more than others based on a slew of things, but anything with ration or notion/experience behind it is worth considering.

I think Diddy vs. Sheik falls in Diddy's favor, not really out of character strength but out of how CONSISTENT you can be with him vs. Sheik. Not even just results, Diddy's gameplan requires less precision and he gets a lot of benefits that come close to Sheik's, maybe not vs. the entire cast like her, but a majority of the commonly used viable chars he can handle, and it's a lot less taxing in comparison. By that alone I think he's a hair ahead. Just me tho.

Also yeah @ Shaya the more I mess with Falcon the better I think he is. I think the only thing that keeps him from being ridiculous is his really bad disadvantage, cause it's AWFUL when Falcon gets hit by virtually anyone.

Ya i really wanted to say somthing about the mindless opinion bashing bs that was happening but i always get called out on it, with crap like "its a disscussion thread bruh" like we have to be at each others necks or crap.


also on the captain falcon thing im sure his disadvantage against zelda aint all dat bad.

 

[Dre89]

I think Diddy vs. Sheik falls in Diddy's favor, not really out of character strength but out of how CONSISTENT you can be with him vs. Sheik. Not even just results, Diddy's gameplan requires less precision and he gets a lot of benefits that come close to Sheik's, maybe not vs. the entire cast like her, but a majority of the commonly used viable chars he can handle, and it's a lot less taxing in comparison. By that alone I think he's a hair ahead. Just me tho.

I think spamming needles and unpunishable fairs requires less precision than forcing a defensive option without committing yourself, or just reading their option. At least with Diddy there's no one or two aggressive options you can do in neutral that will pretty much always be safe, unlike Sheik.

People who know... know, ya know?
And are they justifying those opinions to you? No.
Top players aren't infallible. You have no idea how much isn't easily seen or how much discussion happens in private. If you want elite-level player opinion on something, asking them directly is usually sufficient. Not every Smash player is hyper segmented into social media, a lot of scenes with top level players do not have strong media coverage either. I thought Sheik was best in the game at the same time ZeRo/M2K did, for what it's worth. ZeRo had the best Sheik in the world (and everyone in SoCal knew it) but he made the choice to play Diddy, the same opinion you ride is one which they both believed Luigi and Mario are top 5; he didn't like Sheik against either, so Diddy it was. He would not play any other character for the last month leading up to Apex. Are you going to tell me Luigi/Mario are top 5 or are you going to cherry pick things without even knowing the context/meaning behind them? It is what you do... every single time you try to make a point in any discussion ever....

*sigh*, it's really self-defeating jumping through your hoops Dre.

I'm not saying you're automatically wrong because you disagreed with their public opinions. It's just that referring to your years of experiencing high level play as if it gives your opinion more weight than mine doesn't work when many pros seemingly agree with me, or at least did very recently. It's not like the meta has changed that much since then. I'm also not saying Sheik is better because they do. I thought Sheik was better basically from day 1, before I knew what their opinions were.

Not all high level play is covered, but the highest level normally is. The elite level players often have their own stream and have most of their notable tourney games recorded. In this day and age everyone sees high level play. The only extra weight someone's opinion can have is if they're a high level player themself.

Luigi being top 5 isn't that unreasonable. Tons of people seem to rate him really high. I personally don't because I think he can't approach and has too many defensive flaws. But it's certainly not like thinking he's top 5 discredits someone's opinion in the same way as thinking D3 is top 5 would.

 

[deepseadiva]

The thing about "everyone's opinion matters!" is that no, not everyone's opinion matters.

I would even go so far as to say most people's opinions don't matter. A real fleshed out education and experience in this game is rare.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The thing about "everyone's opinion matters!" is that no, not everyone's opinion matters.

I would even go so far as to say most people's opinions don't matter. A real fleshed out education and experience in this game is rare.

Lol so your saying facts only matter right? I barked up that tree.

Upsets the people with opinions.

 

[Djent]

The problem with Palutena utilt is that even though it lessens her hurtbox its own hitbox is so ****y that the likelihood of getting hit anyway or whiffing it and being punished is rather high if you use it as an anti-air.

Figures d-tilt which has way less lag is a lot better, sure the trajetory is stupid but with super speed you can combo out of it anyway.

Yeah, I seem to recall having it whiff on short grounded characters in front of her.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ya i really wanted to say somthing about the mindless opinion bashing bs that was happening but i always get called out on it, with crap like "its a disscussion thread bruh" like we have to be at each others necks or crap.


also on the captain falcon thing im sure his disadvantage against zelda aint all dat bad.

Zelda's D-tilt/U-tilt combos and edgeguards on him are REALLY GOOD. Have you ever seen D-tilt -> Kick? That nonsense is brutal on Falcon, and then there's the problem of his Up-B losing completely to Zelda's D-air.

If anyone does poorly in the advantaged stage against Falcon it's prob Toon Link and Jiggs. Toon Link in general can't really do much offstage, while Jiggs in contrast doesn't have much of a juggle game. But generally speaking pretty much everyone has something stupid on Falcon.

 

[Radical Larry]

Does anyone else think Link has a slight advantage over Diddy Kong?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Does anyone else think Link has a slight advantage over Diddy Kong?

I'm pretty sure it's just you so explain

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Does anyone else think Link has a slight advantage over Diddy Kong?

Ah larry you always come in with some snappy joke to cheer everyone up.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Nope respectfully disagreeing on the Sheik is #1.
Sheiks Strings and combos break with rage, they break as she increases %'s. Sheik does have to work for non-needle damage between about 60-100%. Her neutral game is assuredly solid, but she has to win neutral more because if you drop a string you didn't do much. To be real a lot of characters can gimp *well* Falco, Pikachu, Brawler, Luigi, hell Diddy and there is more then that. Her low damage is exploitative in that if Sheik isn't stringing you, the damage is small and you can make it up in 1-2 hits. Sheik instead coming off as an inverse Lucario. Strong early, solid neutral, with an alright Late % presence but not something that makes you go "When you're at 105% Sheik is the best character in the game" well she isn't. Her "late game" tools aren't the best in the game, she wins neutral and does fantastic combo's and strings early game.

When I'm looking at Sheik she is showing me what? If her gimp meta develops further, a lot of characters will have serious problems because she can exploit that to circumvent her "falling off". What is the cap though?
I don't panic for Sheik because I know after her stunt I'll get my time to put up my numbers and I just need to be concerned about what my position is on the stage if that will enable her a kill opportunity. Camping with needles? Just go to center stage, the woman isn't Sonic.

 

[Antonykun]

So, when it comes to Swordfighter, it's better to change C-Stick option from Smash Attack into regular Attack to use those tilts easier?

I use the 2DS so I don't have the luxury of a C-stick. I probably would set it to attack if I ever mastered perfect pivoting