Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

I use the 2DS so I don't have the luxury of a C-stick. I probably would set it to attack if I ever mastered perfect pivoting

perfect pivoting on 3ds is soo painfull u have my respect if u can do it at all.

 

[Nobie]

I'm pretty sure it's just you so explain

I'm not Larry and I probably don't even agree with his statement, but there are a few interesting things to think about.

Zero made a video a while back showing Link vs. Diddy Kong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzqODzcRnaQ

In the video, Zero says that he believes Diddy wins the matchup, but that Link has a few tools to make him think twice. Namely, Link dair beats Diddy up air, which is not something most characters can claim.

While Diddy can still bait things out and punish, the down thrust prevents Diddy from being able to mindlessly follow up his throws with juggle opportunities because of how the tables can turn. If Diddy wants to hoo hah, he's taking a risk, and keeping Diddy from building momentum looks like a big deal. Moreover, it means that it's harder for Diddy to catch Link in an air dodge trap, which is one of the powers of hoo hah in the first place.

Another point might just be the presence of a sword disjoint in general. Being able to stop Monkey Flip could be a big deal, as it's Diddy's best burst movement option, and something Diddy might have to resort to if Link is zoning well with projectiles.

 

[warionumbah2]

Obviously some statements are really radical.

Does anyone else think Link has a slight advantage over Diddy Kong?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I made that connection too lol i just held myself off from saying anything.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm not Larry and I probably don't even agree with his statement, but there are a few interesting things to think about.

Zero made a video a while back showing Link vs. Diddy Kong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzqODzcRnaQ

In the video, Zero says that he believes Diddy wins the matchup, but that Link has a few tools to make him think twice. Namely, Link dair beats Diddy up air, which is not something most characters can claim.

While Diddy can still bait things out and punish, the down thrust prevents Diddy from being able to mindlessly follow up his throws with juggle opportunities because of how the tables can turn. If Diddy wants to hoo hah, he's taking a risk, and keeping Diddy from building momentum looks like a big deal. Moreover, it means that it's harder for Diddy to catch Link in an air dodge trap, which is one of the powers of hoo hah in the first place.

Another point might just be the presence of a sword disjoint in general. Being able to stop Monkey Flip could be a big deal, as it's Diddy's best burst movement option, and something Diddy might have to resort to if Link is zoning well with projectiles.

I agree that Link does have a few decent tools against Diddy and holds his own reasonably well. He outcamps Diddy and can do a lot to make things annoying, though Diddy ultimately does have the versatility to exploit Link's weaknesses with patience and smart play. It's a slight edge for Diddy rather than Link instead of the other way around. On balance, this is actually one of Larry's more reasonable statements and is certainly not as cringeworthy as this.

How to remedy the Ganondorf vs Rosalina MU into a 50:50 for both (no Customs):
-Having trouble with Rosalina's aerials knocking you upward? You can simply destroy her with a well-timed D-Spec;

 

[Hippieslayer]

Sheiks neutral game is not "solid" it is ****ing ace

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm not a prophet on purpose, honest!

 

[NairWizard]

I laughed way harder at these three posts than I should have.

But back to the topic at hand, I also feel it becomes dangerous when people look too far into the future and use predictions to determine their character placings as of now. It's very possible to hit a wall that prevents your character from getting to the point where they're that good. It's why ICs never got to being first even though theoretically they should have been first (perfection on the chain grab would have just been too stronk), and it's subjective to say that your character won't hit that wall.

I dunno, though.

Though to be clear, the mentality isn't "I'm losing to Diddys now, but I probably won't in the future!" it's

"I'm beating Diddys now. In the future, other players will too. It's not my skill alone, it's also my character"

that kind of thing

Experience is always more important than straight theory. Or, rather, they have to corroborate.

 

[Terotrous]

Shameless plug: STL customs tourney being streamed now: http://www.twitch.tv/stlbarwarz/

Wow, there's actually good Yoshi play in here. I am starting to see why Thinkaman still thinks Yoshi is pretty high even with customs on. Those aerials still putting in work. Dair into Uair is sick, though it looks super percent-specific.

I also can't believe I'm seriously rooting for Little Mac now. Funny how a few nerfs turns you from a detested scrub character to a hard-working underdog. Could the same happen to Diddy after he gets rekt? I definitely think you need a different recovery for Mario though, Fludd just destroys that slam side B.


Late EDIT: This is seriously the best Yoshi play I've seen anywhere. @Thinkaman, make these guys go to EVO!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wow, there's actually good Yoshi play in here. I am starting to see why Thinkaman still thinks Yoshi is pretty high even with customs on. Those aerials still putting in work. Dair into Uair is sick, though it looks super percent-specific.

I also can't believe I'm seriously rooting for Little Mac now. Funny how a few nerfs turns you from a detested scrub character to a hard-working underdog. Could the same happen to Diddy after he gets rekt? I definitely think you need a different recovery for Mario though, Fludd just destroys that slam side B.

Speaking of Yoshi, does he have any punishable buttons? Dair sort of I guess but it murders shields and I can't think of anything else in his kit with enough end lag to do anything with.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sheiks neutral game is not "solid" it is ****ing ace

Would you like to split hairs?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of Yoshi, does he have any punishable buttons? Dair sort of I guess but it murders shields and I can't think of anything else in his kit with enough end lag to do anything with.

Yoshi's kit has pretty awful hitboxes...honestly. Basically any character that legitimately has half decent spacing tools forces him to work in neutral. "Unpunishable" is not a word I use to describe Yoshi unless if the only thing you ever do in neutral is shield and fish for grabs.

The reason he's good is because he's not very vulnerable to juggles/edgeguards and does a HUGE amount of damage + has viable KO confirms. He's sorta like Ganon in a way, less emphasis on traditional spacing, bigger emphasis on mobility and some moves with fast startup.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Would you like to split hairs?

If he does, I think her fair might be the right tool.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yoshi is that character that always makes me second guess, what is this guy bad at?

 

[NairWizard]

Punishing Yoshi is easier than punishing almost any character in top 15-20.

For some reason his attacks all have this slight window of punishment opportunity somewhere during the move, including Egg Toss.

He's really good, but once you learn to abuse those windows and learn that Yoshi really doesn't have safe "buttons," the matchup gets a lot easier.

 

[Terotrous]

Speaking of Yoshi, does he have any punishable buttons? Dair sort of I guess but it murders shields and I can't think of anything else in his kit with enough end lag to do anything with.

The following are all decently punishable on whiff or shield:

Dash Attack (spacing / character dependent)
Grab
NeutralB
DownB
Dair
UTilt
All Smash Attacks

Notably, except Uair, this is basically all of Yoshi's kill options. The key against Yoshi is just not to give him any easy kills, if he whiffs any of his kill moves you can punish hard.

Yoshi is that character that always makes me second guess, what is this guy bad at?

He's a super solid character who doesn't have any major weaknesses, his only problem is, as above, he doesn't get easy kills the way some of the cast does. He also can't recover low very well.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Sheiks neutral game is not "solid" it is ****ing ace

Would you like to split hairs?

It is not hair splitting, you wrote "solid", tons of characters have a "solid" neutral game, whereas the truth is that almost none can match sheik's neutral.

You're downplaying a strength of hers in order to strengthen your own argument.

Sheiks neutral being superb and not solid is very relevant. It's what lets function when her comboes stop working. If her neutral had been just "solid" Sheik would not have been as great a character at all.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I remember when I was a Yoshi main. It was fun because his movement felt like being everywhere at once.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sheiks neutral game is not "solid" it is ****ing ace


It is not hair splitting, you wrote "solid", tons of characters have a "solid" neutral game, whereas the truth is that almost none can match sheik's neutral.

You're downplaying a strength of hers in order to strengthen your own argument.

Sheiks neutral being superb and not solid is very relevant. It's what lets function when her comboes stop working. If her neutral had been just "solid" Sheik would not have been as great a character at all.

You can replace Solid with "ace", Exceptional, Or Jesus-tapdancing-on-his-bathwater-good.
It won't change the argument.

 

[Luco]

You're downplaying a strength of hers in order to strengthen your own argument.

I feel like this quote can be applied to like, half the arguments made everywhere in the world. Never heard this observation so succinctly stated (dunno why, though). Just taking it out of context here btw, don't mean offense to peeps. ^^

I've versed a few Yoshi's, it's surprising because it feels really frustrating to play against them even if it's not actually that bad. Eggs force so many peeps to approach, and make life very difficult for them, and he's also quite heavy so it's hard to kill him, and although his attacks are punishable it's surprising how quickly he can kill you sometimes.

I suppose eventually his kill moves will become easier to punish though (or rather, people will figure out how to punish them better).

 

[Antonykun]

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-voting-on-d-tier-now.379736/
I needed to get this out of my chest but WHAT IN THE NAME OF PALUTENA IS WRONG WITH THIS TIER LIST.
Excuse me I'm gonna go cry for a moment.
(So this is why we rarely talk about tier lists here)

 

[Ffamran]

Yoshi is that character that always makes me second guess, what is this guy bad at?

Being scary. He's so adorable!

Er... Grabbing? Hit confirms for kills? I don't really know and they're not major issues.

 

[Djent]

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-voting-on-d-tier-now.379736/
I needed to get this out of my chest but WHAT IN THE NAME OF PALUTENA IS WRONG WITH THIS TIER LIST.
Excuse me I'm gonna go cry for a moment.
(So this is why we rarely talk about tier lists here)

"Community Voted"

It'll never work. It's time to let it go.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@Dre89

I don't even need to write a long-winded essay on this. It's elementary.

Playing the game in a competitive (offline) setting and knowing a lot of **** > not playing the game in a competitive (offline) setting and knowing a lot of ****.

If somebody has solid theory and whatnot, then tl; dr, they shouldn't be immediately discarded. I agree with you on that much. But, if you're weighing in against the experience of someone that can emphatically show you otherwise, with raw actualized playtime with many different kinds of players, backed by their own data and research, you better have more than simple ****ing footage on Youtube, For Glory, and locals laying out the foundation of your argument. That's why I try to never presume anything when it comes to my knowledge of the game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-voting-on-d-tier-now.379736/
I needed to get this out of my chest but WHAT IN THE NAME OF PALUTENA IS WRONG WITH THIS TIER LIST.
Excuse me I'm gonna go cry for a moment.
(So this is why we rarely talk about tier lists here)

>.> All it did was make me think to little people are looking in this thread. Not to discredit there opinion but still.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi is that character that always makes me second guess, what is this guy bad at?

Bad approach options, little to no kill confirms, horrid grab game, and a somewhat unsafe offstage game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bad approach options, little to no kill confirms, horrid grab game, and a somewhat unsafe offstage game.

Maybe I am wrong on this but I never found him to be that bad with killing in the sense he could put people in really bad positions and get something off that.

Offstage not as sure on that either, seems like he could get plenty off that to some degree.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Can we talk about Ness? Do people still consider him a high tier or is he high-mid? I feel like he's generally good but not really overwhelming. It feels like his weaknesses are larger than those of other high tiers. His ground game(outside of grabs) isn't all that great, and while his recovery isn't as terrible as some people think it can be exploited. His aerials, grab game, and PKT juggles are all excellent, but is it enough to keep him high tier?

 

[Terotrous]

Bad approach options, little to no kill confirms, horrid grab game, and a somewhat unsafe offstage game.

Honestly, top notch air mobility + fast aerials actually makes for pretty decent approach. It's not necessarily the best, but it's certainly in the upper half of the cast. It also helps that he almost never has to approach if he doesn't want to.

The kill confirms and bad grab game are his main weaknesses, but even then they don't hold him back so much as keep him in check. Really, Yoshi's main weakness is just that he's not as broken as some of the broken characters in this game. He's still a really good character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can we talk about Ness? Do people still consider him a high tier or is he high-mid? I feel like he's generally good but not really overwhelming. It feels like his weaknesses are larger than those of other high tiers. His ground game(outside of grabs) isn't all that great, and while his recovery isn't as terrible as some people think it can be exploited. His aerials, grab game, and PKT juggles are all excellent, but is it enough to keep him high tier?

You forgot that Ness is really ****ing small and a midweight. It's easily the dumbest part of playing against him especially when most of the cast basically can't do SH aerials safely to bait his grabs and when he doesn't quickly die to precise juggle reads like other obnoxiously small characters.

In Brawl, SH aerials were universally a lot better making Ness's strengths a lot more pointless overall when virtually everyone had an amazing aerial spacing tool that hit everyone on the ground instantly. That's really not the case in Smash 4.

 

[Luco]

Can we talk about Ness? Do people still consider him a high tier or is he high-mid? I feel like he's generally good but not really overwhelming. It feels like his weaknesses are larger than those of other high tiers. His ground game(outside of grabs) isn't all that great, and while his recovery isn't as terrible as some people think it can be exploited. His aerials, grab game, and PKT juggles are all excellent, but is it enough to keep him high tier?

Complicated question. We're trying to figure that out. PKT juggles are getting even better than they are currently, and our grab game is no less scary (it's actually being augmented: Noa and I did a project a little while back to find Bthrow's kill percents on every character from different parts of FD (including some data on rage's effect on it), which can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ (In case you couldn't tell I love linking people to this thread, it's literally one of the most satisfying things for us in ages hahah) ), but Fair and Nair do have their drawbacks (although characters with less mobility still can't punish them on shield). On the other hand, I've heard RAR Bair and just Bair in general is becoming a bigger part of our meta, both to help with juggling and in neutral.

In a customs on environment, his recovery suddenly becomes far less of an issue, only possibly being disrupted by reflectors (very difficult), absorption (semi-difficult in Rosi's case) or windboxes (Eh, still annoying as ever), and PKT juggles become PKT gimps. Vortex is weird but could be used quite well in MUs where magnet isn't applicable, and PKF burst has its issues but is still decent (probably reasonably safer given the longer frames on shield drop generally and the fact that it travels further).

I'm not sure really where Ness goes now. He's not top 5, I think an argument could still be made for top 10/15. He doesn't have very many bad MUs - even in MUs where some characters beat out his neutral, he beats them out anyway in other areas usually.

I'd ask one of the Ness mains who's more in touch with the contemporary scene - @NAKAT , @Noa. , @Meccs , @Pazx , @Screk and @Lukinhasss come to mind as peeps who may be able to contribute a little here, among others.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Maybe I am wrong on this but I never found him to be that bad with killing in the sense he could put people in really bad positions and get something off that.

Offstage not as sure on that either, seems like he could get plenty off that to some degree.

He definitely has bad killing problems, no confirms and almost nothing safe on block, you literally can only kill with punishes and reads, both of which usually require a mistake on your opponents part.

Honestly, top notch air mobility + fast aerials actually makes for pretty decent approach. It's not necessarily the best, but it's certainly in the upper half of the cast. It also helps that he almost never has to approach if he doesn't want to.

The kill confirms and bad grab game are his main weaknesses, but even then they don't hold him back so much as keep him in check. Really, Yoshi's main weakness is just that he's not as broken as some of the broken characters in this game. He's still a really good character.

Mobility =/= safe approach though, Yoshi has literally nothing safe on block. Sure, he has egg lay, but when thats your only option it becomes predictable. And Im not saying Yoshi is a bad character, he's really good, Im just listing his weaknesses/problems.

 

[Terotrous]

Mobility =/= safe approach though, Yoshi has literally nothing safe on block. Sure, he has egg lay, but when thats your only option it becomes predictable. And Im not saying Yoshi is a bad character, he's really good, Im just listing his weaknesses/problems.

Fair is pretty safe on block against most characters, which is why most Yoshis use it so liberally for approaching. Might not be a good idea against someone like Mario or LM and their superfast UpB OOS, but it works against most of the cast.

As far as ground goes, Jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt are also pretty safe. Dash Attack can be fairly safe if you space it so you go through the person, but specific characters (ie, bowser) can still punish this.

And of course, the threat of Command Grab is always helpful to encourage people not to shield.

 

[ramskick]

Can we talk about Ness? Do people still consider him a high tier or is he high-mid? I feel like he's generally good but not really overwhelming. It feels like his weaknesses are larger than those of other high tiers. His ground game(outside of grabs) isn't all that great, and while his recovery isn't as terrible as some people think it can be exploited. His aerials, grab game, and PKT juggles are all excellent, but is it enough to keep him high tier?

I honestly think Ness is top 10. His recovery has gotten better (though still highly gimpable), he has one of if not the strongest throw in the game and a couple of really good combos. While he does have his apparent flaws he has too many strengths to fall below maybe top-15.

 

[Conda]

@Dre89

I don't even need to write a long-winded essay on this. It's elementary.

Playing the game in a competitive (offline) setting and knowing a lot of **** > not playing the game in a competitive (offline) setting and knowing a lot of ****.

If somebody has solid theory and whatnot, then tl; dr, they shouldn't be immediately discarded. I agree with you on that much. But, if you're weighing in against the experience of someone that can emphatically show you otherwise, with raw actualized playtime with many different kinds of players, backed by their own data and research, you better have more than simple ****ing footage on Youtube, For Glory, and locals laying out the foundation of your argument. That's why I try to never presume anything when it comes to my knowledge of the game.

Smooth Criminal

Agreed 100%. (Hey its Cobbs he's back wow his head stopped bleeding I guess!)

Haha but really, there's not only one kind of 'valuable perspective', as you pointed out. Someone's in-person tournament experience is going to be more resonant than someone from an online-only perspective. So when people post here about their opinions, it's important to know if they are in a place of growth as a lower-level player aiming to improve, or if they are an established tournament-attending competitive player.

As a commentator I'm in a position where I give advice constantly, and it's important to be humble and ever-researching - because, as you said, "I try to never presume anything when it comes to my knowledge of the game."

For example, I commentate some For Glory matches on my channel, but the aim is to help viewers of the channel who are in that place themselves. If you're a low or mid-level player, it's helpful to have either your matches commentated or matches of a similar skill level. Trying to learn from watching only high level tournament matches - matches that arent targeted towards trying to help you and teach you about the game - then you'll find yourself frustrated. You have to learn from a multitude of different sources and understand that the game is not simple enough to learn from a top-down perspective, by watching a character guide by a top level player. You're gonna have to do a lot more research and learn things from a variety of different perspectives.

Gotta keep learning. Learn from videos, guides, and posts. But never think you know it all. You won't be as helpful to others if you think you do, nor will you keep an open mind and allow yourself to continue learning if you think you already know everything.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Fair is pretty safe on block against most characters, which is why most Yoshis use it so liberally for approaching. Might not be a good idea against someone like Mario or LM and their superfast UpB OOS, but it works against most of the cast.

As far as ground goes, Jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt are also pretty safe. Dash Attack can be fairly safe if you space it so you go through the person, but specific characters (ie, bowser) can still punish this.

Pretty safe isnt good enough against good players, they will punish almost anything even SLIGHTLY unsafe, fair is still like -5 on block or something, which most characters can nair oos punish at the least. Jab, while not punishable, puts Yoshi in a bad spot; Yoshi DOES NOT want to be grounded right in front of a character in around grab range, HORRIBLE place for Yoshi to be since his grab is atrocious and anything after jab 1 that can be done is punishable on block, and jab 2 can be shield grabbed. Ftilt and dtilt are decent spacing options, but they arent approach options, they dont get you in, they just knock them back a little and you're back to neutral.

 

[Luco]

I should mention by the way that Bair being good has a lot to do with what A2 mentioned about Ness contorting his relatively small (but midweight, lol) body in such a way that usually pushes the person back, and because Ness lands lying on the ground his hurtbox placements make him surprisingly difficult to grab.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pretty safe isnt good enough against good players, they will punish almost anything even SLIGHTLY unsafe, fair is still like -5 on block or something, which most characters can nair oos punish at the least. Jab, while not punishable, puts Yoshi in a bad spot; Yoshi DOES NOT want to be grounded right in front of a character in around grab range, HORRIBLE place for Yoshi to be since his grab is atrocious and anything after jab 1 that can be done is punishable on block, and jab 2 can be shield grabbed. Ftilt and dtilt are decent spacing options, but they arent approach options, they dont get you in, they just knock them back a little and you're back to neutral.

the only character with absolute safty on shield is shiek.

 

[Terotrous]

Pretty safe isnt good enough against good players, they will punish almost anything even SLIGHTLY unsafe, fair is still like -5 on block or something, which most characters can nair oos punish at the least.

Actually, the fastest Nair OOS in the game is 6 frame startup (3 frame jumpsquat + 3 frame startup), and only a couple characters have them, most Nair OOS are about 10 frames. Don't forget Yoshi can drift back after Fair, too, so I'm not sure if frame perfect Sheik Nair even hits him.

Jab, while not punishable, puts Yoshi in a bad spot; Yoshi DOES NOT want to be grounded right in front of a character in around grab range, HORRIBLE place for Yoshi to be since his grab is atrocious and anything after jab 1 that can be done is punishable on block, and jab 2 can be shield grabbed

I'd want to see testing on exactly who can shield grab Jab2 and who can't, as I don't think it can be done by the entire cast.

Ftilt and dtilt are decent spacing options, but they arent approach options, they dont get you in, they just knock them back a little and you're back to neutral.

True, they're pokes for when you get in, but empty jumping into one of these is always an option.


There simply isn't really a lot of evidence to suggest that Yoshi has problems with safety. Most people seem to think the relative safety of his moveset is one of his strongest traits. Do you know of any match videos where Yoshi is just getting punished for everything he does? I personally haven't seen any such examples.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

What about Ness's projectiles? Are PK Fire and Thunder contenders for some of the best projectiles in the game? PK Fire activating on shields is a huge buff, and the only way to avoid the move is to roll (if it connects on your shield; rolling to avoid it altogether just resets neutral), jump over it (or jump after DIing out of it) or try to reflect it. Most characters can't reflect [effectively], jumping leaves you vulnerable to Ness's f-air or u-air, and Ness can chase and punish rolls with a dash attack or a grab.

Can you imagine what it'd be like if Ness kept his Brawl d-air? The thought is spine-chilling.