Character Competitive Impressions

[Dre89]

You know sheild grabs still work onn her fair if in range. As long as your grab is like frame 8 or lower or something you can sheild grab it. A spaced fair is different though.

Well yeah I mean spaced fairs. I'm assuming a high level of play here where Sheiks will almost always space their stuff perfectly.

Sheik is abusable. She has a humanoid frame and fastfall speed, which means that many characters have hilarious combos/setups on her (she's not like Diddy with a 3-frame escape option that will KO you, though she has a better recovery in exchange for that, so maybe the comparison is apt).

While Bouncing Fish makes her disadvantage tolerable, Sheik excels in neutral. Top neutral game in the game, flat out. To be Top Tier, Sheik relies on the player playing her to have full control over the neutral at all times. Thus Sheik is one of those characters that only seems unbeatable at the highest levels.

The same cannot be said for Diddy. Anyone at any level can perform d-throw followups.

It takes a truly monstrous Sheik to put the fear in you.

But once it's there, oh man is it there.

I think Pika and Sheik are better than Diddy theoretically, but in practice Diddy is a much more pragmatic main because he's a lot easier. There won't be any motivation for someone to learn Sheik or Pika, unless other people pick them up and start abusing their advantages over Diddy.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shameless plug: STL customs tourney being streamed now: http://www.twitch.tv/stlbarwarz/

 

[Shaya]

I don't know any more about Pikachu beating Diddy. At my last tournament, I lost 1-3 to a regional top Diddy in Winners Finals, and won 3-2 and 3-1 in Grand Finals in Diddy dittos. After that, in a friendly set I again lost 1-3 to that Diddy as Pikachu, but won a followup friendly set 3-0 with Luigi.

The Diddy metagame has outpaced my understanding of the MU, especially with this new up-throw technology. The matchup feels like a 50:50 now to me (I say this despite my loss; it's possible that my Pikachu play has been off the past few weeks due to my investment in learning other characters). Diddy is rocketing beyond his old "grab, roll, grab" metagame, and it's rather frightening. I do still think that Pikachu and Sheik are better with customs off, but at least from my Pikachu's perspective, Diddy's gotten a lot harder to beat if he's playing well.

"It begins".
Actually, maybe we never disagree on anything, there's just a few weeks misalignment between us

Hate cycle niche?

"Pikachu beats everyone 55:45 or more, no bad match ups, Quick Attack beats everything, definitely top 3"
Sounds familiar?
We're going to have pika-mains and uber-fans saying top 3 forever, mid-ground people playing against really solid pikachus thinking top 5-6 while an ever growing sect of players saying "TRASH" and cyber bullying all the aforementioned for not agreeing that pikachu is 15th at best. YOU WERE IN THIS CYCLE OF LOVE TOO I'M PRETTY SURE HOW COULD YOU FORGET.



Sheik's needles and bouncing fish definitely make her godlike. The variation in horizontal distance plus beating every non-dodge option is critical. Needles are transcended priority and are pretty safe if you aren't an idiot.
Falco's Brawl lasers and phantasm went to Sheik. Bouncing Fish is still one of the best moves to ever exist in a smash game.

And for those that say fish doesn't fit.
You obviously don't see how accurately Sakurai represented fishing mechanics from Zelda games.

B: "HOO HOOO HOO" (throws some bread/bait into the pond)

SHWWINGGGG (swings fishing rod in proper fishing style)
*WALLOP*

"I GOT A BITE DAD"
*yank the fishing rod back to take your prize*

[keep doing it until you get bored; hint: it never does]

 

[Blobface]

Shameless plug: STL customs tourney being streamed now: http://www.twitch.tv/stlbarwarz/

It's irrational, stupid, and completely unfair to the players, but...

I find that seeing top tiers like sheik and diddy played in a customs tourney is more grating than a sharpened cheese grater.

 

[Emblem Lord]

what the **** are you on

I agree with him.

She is a weakling. Her power is relative to the cast, but put her against Brawl MK, Brawl Diddy, Melee Falco, Melee Marth, 64 Kirby, 64 Pikachu, etc. Any one of these dudes would obliterate Smash 4 Sheik.

It's all relative guys.

 

[NairWizard]

"It begins".
Actually, maybe we never disagree on anything, there's just a few weeks misalignment between us

I don't think so. I don't agree with several things that you seem to believe in (such as that Diddy is stronger than Sheik, or that Luigi is anywhere near top 10). The influence of the current top meta on your views seems to be substantially higher than on my own views. There's nothing wrong with being results-oriented, but I myself don't think in those terms, so I don't think we'll agree given a few weeks time.

"Pikachu beats everyone 55:45 or more, no bad match ups, Quick Attack beats everything, definitely top 3"

I don't think that I've ever believed that Pikachu is 55:45 or better against everyone. He has many even matchups (which in itself is impressive in a cast of 51 characters!). No bad matchups is close to being true, though. There's no character against which I'd ever see a reason to switch off of Pikachu, at least without customs. With customs I really hate the grappling class of characters when I'm playing as Pikachu, so I'd rather take someone more Rage-resilient, like Luigi or Diddy.

edit: quote tag

 

[Nabbitnator]

She has wall of pains that are harder to DI than hoo hah. I'm pretty sure she has come true combos out of grab and ftilt too but I can't remember off the top of the head. Probably the dumbest thing though is that SH fair is unpunishable by pretty much like 95% of the cast.

I wonder if they could make SH fair a little more punishable but still difficult. So that almost everyone has at least one option to get a minor punish.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I wonder if they could make SH fair a little more punishable but still difficult. So that almost everyone has at least one option to get a minor punish.

personally feel it should be punishable regardless. its not a big deal though.

 

[David Viran]

personally feel it should be punishable regardless. its not a bid deal though.

I found out that ZSS's Bair is punishable unless sheild grabbed because she can act the same frame as you after sheild drop lag. Her uair was the same way surprisingly but that's a lot harder to space.

 

[Dre89]

personally feel it should be punishable regardless. its not a big deal though.

I think Diddy can punish it with a JC tossed nana but I'm not sure, you may have to powershield the fair

 

[Ffamran]

I wonder if they could make SH fair a little more punishable but still difficult. So that almost everyone has at least one option to get a minor punish.

They could add a sour-spot... I take that back. Could you imagine the combos she could pull with that? Yeah, let's have her do no knockback, but there's hit stun and boom, she can combo people even more for days. Screw staling that crap, the wall of pain just became a wall of hell.

Landing lag or something I guess... Eh, whatever. It's not as a bad as a fast move with a lot of knockback and a large hitbox.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

They could add a sour-spot... I take that back. Could you imagine the combos she could pull with that? Yeah, let's have her do no knockback, but there's hit stun and boom, she can combo people even more for days. Screw staling that crap, the wall of pain just became a wall of hell.

Landing lag or something I guess... Eh, whatever. It's not as a bad as a fast move with a lot of knockback and a large hitbox.

Oh geez i wonder who you taking about *cougha couHOOgh cough weeHAHeez*

 

[Dre89]

They could add a sour-spot... I take that back. Could you imagine the combos she could pull with that? Yeah, let's have her do no knockback, but there's hit stun and boom, she can combo people even more for days. Screw staling that crap, the wall of pain just became a wall of hell.

Landing lag or something I guess... Eh, whatever. It's not as a bad as a fast move with a lot of knockback and a large hitbox.

Sheik's fair is dumber because Diddy's can actually be punished on whiff, so there's counterplay to it. Diddy has to think about using his fair more than Sheik does. Diddy's is just harder to contest directly. It does more damage but it doesn't lead into combos like Sheik's and doesn't kill until like over 140% onstage with DI.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Or you could just give them Jigglypuff weight, then Sheik and Diddy would trade terribly.

 

[Ffamran]

Oh geez i wonder who you taking about *cougha couHOOgh cough weeHAHeez*

Nah, bro, it's all about that Ganondorf Uair.

Still, yeah, the issue I think is more of a power:speed ratio. For Little Mac, it makes sense since it would be hella stupid if all, I repeat: ALL, of his moves were above frame 6 despite being powerful and having super armor, that would make him even worse since his lack of an air game, poor recovery, slow tech rolls, and slow attacks would kill him. It makes sense for Ganondorf, Ike, Shulk, etc. because they have range and survivability, but then you consider a character who not only has fast attacks, but good range, power, a small hitbox. There's something not right about that. Sheik has range and speed. That's fine since while she'll combo you, there's a chance you can survive and punish her mistakes, but Diddy has power to back up his everything. If his range was shortened, I don't think he'd be that annoying even with fast and powerful moves. Why does he have stretchy limbs again? Although he's a spider monkey, last I checked, spider monkeys can't stretch their limbs and Diddy's arms are already close to dragging on the floor, why does he need extra range?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or you could just give them Jigglypuff weight, then Sheik and Diddy would trade terribly.

They already don't trade well.

I mean when I fight Ganon as sheik the entire time im just like omgomgomgomgomgomg dont touch me omgomgomg.

When I play Marth im like..meh..walk around like a boss and cut this dudes kneecaps off.

 

[NairWizard]

They already don't trade well.

I mean when I fight Ganon as sheik the entire time im just like omgomgomgomgomgomg dont touch me omgomgomg.

When I play Marth im like..meh..walk around like a boss and cut this dudes kneecaps off.

Yeah, I feel this way when I fight any heavy as Pikachu.

Pikachu vs. Ganon is so intense I actually breathe a sigh of relief when it's over.

Sure, Sheik and Pikachu "win," but mess up even once and you get mauled.

Getting the KO is the worst part. Rage is so terrifying.

This is why I just use Luigi against these guys, though I guess you could go custom Villager and plant a sapling and hide behind it lol.

 

[Dre89]

Nah, bro, it's all about that Ganondorf Uair.

Still, yeah, the issue I think is more of a power:speed ratio. For Little Mac, it makes sense since it would be hella stupid if all, I repeat: ALL, of his moves were above frame 6 despite being powerful and having super armor, that would make him even worse since his lack of an air game, poor recovery, slow tech rolls, and slow attacks would kill him. It makes sense for Ganondorf, Ike, Shulk, etc. because they have range and survivability, but then you consider a character who not only has fast attacks, but good range, power, a small hitbox. There's something not right about that. Sheik has range and speed. That's fine since while she'll combo you, there's a chance you can survive and punish her mistakes, but Diddy has power to back up his everything. If his range was shortened, I don't think he'd be that annoying even with fast and powerful moves. Why does he have stretchy limbs again? Although he's a spider monkey, last I checked, spider monkeys can't stretch their limbs and Diddy's arms are already close to dragging on the floor, why does he need extra range?

Diddy has more power but you're ignoring that he's alot more punishable. You counter them in different ways. Sheik is mostly unpunishable but you can contest her directly, and trading with her is fine because her damage output on individual moves is low and she has low kill power.

Diddy's hitboxes are harder to contest with but are more punishable. That's why Diddy's game currently centres around pressuring with his presence and nanas to force the opponent into committing into a defensive option and then punishing it. Diddy's KO power is high but in turn his edgeguarding is weaker and he's much more gimpable.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Why does he have stretchy limbs again? Although he's a spider monkey, last I checked, spider monkeys can't stretch their limbs and Diddy's arms are already close to dragging on the floor, why does he need extra range?

I think the intention of that was to compensate for Diddy's Banana Peel being heavily nerfed, but it wasn't necessary for some of his attacks.

 

[Dre89]

I also don't get all this crying about hoo hah. Most of the cast can DI it by like 50% (lots can do it around 30 or so). At best Diddy can get a fair out of it, which is good for damage but not much else. That's comparable to what a lot of other characters get out of grabs. Uthrow-uair is DIable too. It still puts you in a bad position but it's not the guaranteed kill everyone is making it out to be.

 

[Ffamran]

Diddy has more power but you're ignoring that he's alot more punishable. You counter them in different ways. Sheik is mostly unpunishable but you can contest her directly, and trading with her is fine because her damage output on individual moves is low and she has low kill power.

Diddy's hitboxes are harder to contest with but are more punishable. That's why Diddy's game currently centres around pressuring with his presence and nanas to force the opponent into committing into a defensive option and then punishing it. Diddy's KO power is high but in turn his edgeguarding is weaker and he's much more gimpable.

I know, but there's something that feels a bit off about Diddy at times because he's so little, but he packs a lot of punch and moves quickly. Characters around his size usually have something to exploit or something that they'd don't excel, but Diddy is very well-rounded.

Anyway, because the meta game is still young, jack of all trades like Diddy will function well since you can play him pretty much however you want and be fine. Adding in the fear of Uair and his Banana Peel - people should use it counter him instead of throwing it away -, and you have a character people know is strong, but there is probably exaggeration. He's not Brawl Meta Knight who was broken or Melee Fox who benefited from the engine so much that his glass cannon status didn't matter.

Add in that there's a select group of characters being focused and for all we know, there's a character somewhere not a lot of people use or can use like Mewtwo who's not released yet or the Mii Fighters because of early and different rulesets bouncing back and forth on customs and their legality.

It's why I feel like - and this is still just theories - that Falco goes well against Diddy. He probably doesn't have an advantage, but his power and fast moves allows him to punish Diddy, especially on the ground. Falco and Diddy trading with each other is pretty much even. The only difference is that Diddy moves faster and can set up traps while Falco punishes.

Edit: There's also the issue of people not knowing how to safely edgeguard yet since people are still figuring out the stage game. People constantly talk about how easy it is to gimp certain characters, but you don't see that often. Most people play is safe and sometimes, they play is a bit too safe.

I think the intention of that was to compensate for Diddy's Banana Peel being heavily nerfed, but it wasn't necessary for some of his attacks.

I didn't play as Diddy much in Brawl, but his range was fine, right?

 

[Yokoblue]

I also don't get all this crying about hoo hah. Most of the cast can DI it by like 50% (lots can do it around 30 or so). At best Diddy can get a fair out of it, which is good for damage but not much else. That's comparable to what a lot of other characters get out of grabs. Uthrow-uair is DIable too. It still puts you in a bad position but it's not the guaranteed kill everyone is making it out to be.

Upthrow up air kill at around 60% for a lot of characters and is not di-able. I watch Nairo vs Nakat recently on stream and nairo was just killing nakat's fox/pika non stop around 60-80% every game.
He tried to DI it for like... at least 3hours. Never could if Nairo had it perfect. He even said it himself "If I don't mess up its a guaranteed"

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I also don't get all this crying about hoo hah. Most of the cast can DI it by like 50% (lots can do it around 30 or so). At best Diddy can get a fair out of it, which is good for damage but not much else. That's comparable to what a lot of other characters get out of grabs. Uthrow-uair is DIable too. It still puts you in a bad position but it's not the guaranteed kill everyone is making it out to be.

mfw people complaining about hoo hah when Rosalina can KO at 30% on Halberd with dthrow to uair shenanigans

 

[ChronoPenguin]

They already don't trade well.

I mean when I fight Ganon as sheik the entire time im just like omgomgomgomgomgomg dont touch me omgomgomg.

When I play Marth im like..meh..walk around like a boss and cut this dudes kneecaps off.

Let me put it another way because you are correct.
Diddy and Sheik would have a notable loss in success if their effective health was decreased to be around that of Kirby or Olimar. While that goes without saying for most characters, I believe the relative strength of Smash 4's cast makes this a somewhat simple "solution". Human error is too real to discount.

 

[Nobie]

Is it just me or does Meta Knight seem to have decent matchups against most of the top tier?

 

[Ffamran]

mfw people complaining about hoo hah when Rosalina can KO at 30% on Halberd with dthrow to uair shenanigans

My life death(s) as a Falco main.

Is it just me or does Meta Knight seem to have decent matchups against most of the top tier?

I wouldn't be surprised and people have considered him like Pikachu as sleeper high tier. His ability to combo people in the air, his all or nothing game plan, and ability to kill early and gimp is awesome. Also, his short hop aerials like the whole Dair helicoptering thing. The main issue would be his skill level and precision requirement.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I also don't get all this crying about hoo hah. Most of the cast can DI it by like 50% (lots can do it around 30 or so). At best Diddy can get a fair out of it, which is good for damage but not much else. That's comparable to what a lot of other characters get out of grabs. Uthrow-uair is DIable too. It still puts you in a bad position but it's not the guaranteed kill everyone is making it out to be.

People complain about it because it's very easy and efficient, being able to both combo and KO in a simple setup. Though it's more or less a scrub killer, as more savvy players can see that coming and can react accordingly. The real threat is the more savvy Diddy players that will take advantage of that by toying with expectations.

 

[Dre89]

Upthrow up air kill at around 60% for a lot of characters and is not di-able. I watch Nairo vs Nakat recently on stream and nairo was just killing nakat's fox/pika non stop around 60-80% every game.
He tried to DI it for like... at least 3hours. Never could if Nairo had it perfect. He even said it himself "If I don't mess up its a guaranteed"

Edit- Ignore that, I thought you were talking about dthrow. I don't know the specific DI for uthrow but I've heard it's DIable.

The dthrow DI is very strict though, you need absolutely perfect DI to avoid the uair. It could be that the timing for uthrow is strict that he just hadn't got it yet.

 

[Ffamran]

People complain about it because it's very easy and efficient, being able to both combo and KO in a simple setup. Though it's more or less a scrub killer, as more savvy players can see that coming and can react accordingly. The real threat is the more savvy Diddy players that will take advantage of that by toying with expectations.

Case in point: Leffen and ZeRo using U-throw to throw - pun intended - people off.

 

[Shaya]

I'm more practical theory based and use a great deal of "experience" bias.
I'll look at things in terms of reaction speed, 'pressure' (the average to even top level "self-defeating" that occurs) and then my 6-7 years of pretty dedicated evaluating of tools in every smash game. I've been saying things much longer than 'obvious results in the meta', because I've also been lucky to see these developments outside the tournament realm. I wouldn't be surprised if I've seen more top level Pikachu play than anyone else in this thread (streams that feature all various sorts of great players I seek out that only ever have 5-10 viewers at least gives me this impression, let alone in person training and top players 'nutting out' options).
Anyone who hasn't put themselves through Brawl ICs impact of the meta is usually someone I don't see as truly understanding what the **** is going on. Putting Sheik above Diddy plainly ignores his match up skews, results and a very distinct barrier for players to succeed even if they're winning 65:35 in most game states or better. Sheik is the best character in the game at 0%, at 100% I wouldn't put her as top 5. With a stock lead I'd put her better or second best to Diddy, at stock deficit? She's quite pitiful. Diddy is always top 3 at worst in every match up in these various conditions. If you rate them linearly / as a ratio of time, then Sheik forcing a slow excruciating death definitely puts her as no.1... I guess.
Blaming yourself is fine, but there are limits to your character, if Pika has game breaking abilities to overcome this, then you wouldn't be switching to Diddy or Luigi.

Pikachu hasn't been shown to do a single thing super-noteworthy bar a Day 1 WiiU tournament. I've been using Pikachu since day1 of 3DS and had very high expectations for him and will be happy to be proven wrong.
I would put characters like Falcon and Luigi, despite having obviously weaker neutrals (and less options in disadvantage) as better as Pikachu right now because
their moves are stupid, something we almost all agree on, oh and to top it off there's ACTUAL RESULTS for them too.

Mobility is an amazing part of a character, in this game thus far it's one of the biggest attributes we're looking at. But Pikachu lacks something very distinctive, and that's pokes/spacing tools. Down Tilt does not compensate enough (if that were the case, Marth would be having a much better time against good characters). He uses the shallow design of his frame/size to give him a semblance of one, but it's "fake" and will only continue to have counter-play developed with little to expand on from Pikachu's part. If you already have a punish consistently down for when Pikachu fairs or bairs (yes, yes, grounded Pikachu is the only Pikachu, Macachu~), chances are you're going to destroy them. If you take the strength of Pika's chaining/combos and look at how his tools don't allow him to maintain a dominant positional advantage (unlike Diddy, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina) afterwards, then the pressure the player has dealing with Pikachu diminishes drastically ["oh this could happen, but it's not that debilitating to me or my game plan at all"].

 

[FlareHabanero]

Just for clarification, this is not the only game in the series with "stupid moves". I don't know why people pretend it is, but it isn't, nor will it be the last case of it.

 

[Shaya]

Just for clarification, this is not the only game in the series with "stupid moves". I don't know why people pretend it is, but it isn't, nor will it be the last case of it.

Sorry I chose to just say stupid moves rather than write two essays on their entire movesets.
Is there a point to this? Enlighten me.
Either way, yeah, if the game has no stupid moves, where's the fun?

Let me fix up this messy paragraph.
Moves which shut down a wide-arrange of options are generally seen as 'stupid'. This is a reflection of a lack of understanding on how the strategy around those moves are dealt with. As they are wrung through the machinations of meta developments, eventually some may stop being referred to as "stupid".
On average though, things which involve grabs tend to stay that way, forever.

 

[andimidna]

may i ask whats keeping custom palutena from the absolute top tier? she's like 2x as mobile as sheik lol with jump glide, lightweight, and super speed.

you thought sonic was rollin around at the speed of sound palutenas flyin around at the speed of light

Yes, thisss
This is what I wanna see talked about
I've been watching a lot of custom palutena stuff the past week and wtf lightweight is so much better than I thought. She follows up so close to the blast zone and follow hit trajectory while they're still in hitstun straight to death. It's amazing how many kills she can get around just 60. Her customs definitely cover her major weeknesses, which is important to look at to see how much a character improves from customs. I think default Palutena is lackluster because she's forced to play defensively (generally) similar to Zelda with no amazing approach options and her damage output is below average. Her tilts are whatever, I think that can be played around even with default. So now that she has her SS/LW/JG, she has some of the best approach options in the game and doesn't need a high amount of damage to secure a kill with her crazy 60-90% kills. On top of that she still has a projectile game and defensive options.
It's so soon to call anything for a character that has such an unevolved meta, becoming basically a new character with a different play style...
But I think she's top tier, and could become top 5
And justImagine what she'd be like if she had Sheiks tilts lol

 

[Nabbitnator]

So with light weight. What can palutena do if you can avoid her stuff?

 

[Kofu]

Yeah, I feel this way when I fight any heavy as Pikachu.

Pikachu vs. Ganon is so intense I actually breathe a sigh of relief when it's over.

Sure, Sheik and Pikachu "win," but mess up even once and you get mauled.

Getting the KO is the worst part. Rage is so terrifying.

This is why I just use Luigi against these guys, though I guess you could go custom Villager and plant a sapling and hide behind it lol.

This is pretty much any lightweight character against any heavy. I can use the experience as Game & Watch against characters like Bowser, Ganon, and Dedede, but since they outrange me and hit about 100x harder, I have to play very, very carefully and try as hard as I can to get gimps. Even then my margin for error is so much less than theirs that I'd rather go Villager or someone else against them.

 

[thehard]

Shameless plug: STL customs tourney being streamed now: http://www.twitch.tv/stlbarwarz/

Man, that was a hype GF.

Nice Mac yourself. That side-B custom looks terrifying to recover with.

 

[Djent]

Palutena's Specials on a better character would be broken. Fortunately, her default kit is mediocre at best. @ Thinkaman basically explained this character perfectly as a crappy base + layers upon layers of strong gimmicks. Those "strong gimmicks" allow her to BS her way to victory against most of the cast, but I still can't see her having positive MUs against the "fundamentally solid" characters. This is because her normals either suck or come with odd limitations. If you have an answer to her silly mobility shenanigans + a solid set of tilts and aerials, you probably win. Which in my mind explains why you still see her losing to fundamentally solid characters even with customs on. For example, see (Aero/Ninja)link vs. Diddy and Sheik. On the other hand, her fellow gimmick characters (like Lucario) get bodied because their own gimmicks can't keep up in the "Sonic that kills at 70%" minigame.

 

[ramskick]

Yes, thisss
This is what I wanna see talked about
I've been watching a lot of custom palutena stuff the past week and wtf lightweight is so much better than I thought. She follows up so close to the blast zone and follow hit trajectory while they're still in hitstun straight to death. It's amazing how many kills she can get around just 60. Her customs definitely cover her major weeknesses, which is important to look at to see how much a character improves from customs. I think default Palutena is lackluster because she's forced to play defensively (generally) similar to Zelda with no amazing approach options and her damage output is below average. Her tilts are whatever, I think that can be played around even with default. So now that she has her SS/LW/JG, she has some of the best approach options in the game and doesn't need a high amount of damage to secure a kill with her crazy 60-90% kills. On top of that she still has a projectile game and defensive options.
It's so soon to call anything for a character that has such an unevolved meta, becoming basically a new character with a different play style...
But I think she's top tier, and could become top 5
And justImagine what she'd be like if she had Sheiks tilts lol

Few doubt Palutena's potential if customs become the new normal, it's just like you said, that the metagame is so young and the customs metagame even younger. Because of this nobody has really exemplified how good she can be if played perfectly. We've seen flashes of crazy LW/SS play but not tons of it. I expect that by EVO Palutena will be considered at least top 10 with customs if not top 5 as long as people continue to put in work with her and try new stuff.

 

[Dre89]

I'm more practical theory based and use a great deal of "experience" bias.
I'll look at things in terms of reaction speed, 'pressure' (the average to even top level "self-defeating" that occurs) and then my 6-7 years of pretty dedicated evaluating of tools in every smash game. I've been saying things much longer than 'obvious results in the meta', because I've also been lucky to see these developments outside the tournament realm. I wouldn't be surprised if I've seen more top level Pikachu play than anyone else in this thread (streams that feature all various sorts of great players I seek out that only ever have 5-10 viewers at least gives me this impression, let alone in person training and top players 'nutting out' options).
Anyone who hasn't put themselves through Brawl ICs impact of the meta is usually someone I don't see as truly understanding what the **** is going on. Putting Sheik above Diddy plainly ignores his match up skews, results and a very distinct barrier for players to succeed even if they're winning 65:35 in most game states or better. Sheik is the best character in the game at 0%, at 100% I wouldn't put her as top 5. With a stock lead I'd put her better or second best to Diddy, at stock deficit? She's quite pitiful. Diddy is always top 3 at worst in every match up in these various conditions. If you rate them linearly / as a ratio of time, then Sheik forcing a slow excruciating death definitely puts her as no.1... I guess.
Blaming yourself is fine, but there are limits to your character, if Pika has game breaking abilities to overcome this, then you wouldn't be switching to Diddy or Luigi.

Pikachu hasn't been shown to do a single thing super-noteworthy bar a Day 1 WiiU tournament. I've been using Pikachu since day1 of 3DS and had very high expectations for him and will be happy to be proven wrong.
I would put characters like Falcon and Luigi, despite having obviously weaker neutrals (and less options in disadvantage) as better as Pikachu right now because
their moves are stupid, something we almost all agree on, oh and to top it off there's ACTUAL RESULTS for them too.

Mobility is an amazing part of a character, in this game thus far it's one of the biggest attributes we're looking at. But Pikachu lacks something very distinctive, and that's pokes/spacing tools. Down Tilt does not compensate enough (if that were the case, Marth would be having a much better time against good characters). He uses the shallow design of his frame/size to give him a semblance of one, but it's "fake" and will only continue to have counter-play developed with little to expand on from Pikachu's part. If you already have a punish consistently down for when Pikachu fairs or bairs (yes, yes, grounded Pikachu is the only Pikachu, Macachu~), chances are you're going to destroy them. If you take the strength of Pika's chaining/combos and look at how his tools don't allow him to maintain a dominant positional advantage (unlike Diddy, Sheik, Falcon, Sonic, Rosalina) afterwards, then the pressure the player has dealing with Pikachu diminishes drastically ["oh this could happen, but it's not that debilitating to me or my game plan at all"].

I don't know why you keep mentioning lack of a tourney results for Pika. I specifically said I think he's theoretically better than Diddy but won't get the results to prove it now that ESAM has quit. I also said that from a pragmatic perspective, there's no need to bother learning Pika instead of Diddy, unless other people do pick up Pika and start abusing his advantages over Diddy. At this point in time no one is doing that so there's no reason to not pick Diddy.

You can talk about how you've seen and analysed high level play for years. But at the end of the day, when you say Diddy is better than Sheik you are disagreeing with players like Zero, M2K, Rain and Nietono. All players who are not only better than you (no disrespect) but have also seen and experienced a lot more high level play over the years than you have. Now that doesn't mean that you're automatically wrong, but trying to pull the experience card on me won't work when technically the experience card is on my side.

Also I don't get how Sheik is bad at 100% when she is one of the best gimpers in the game. I also don't get why you're talking about Pika's dtilt when the whole reason why he's good is because he has an immense camp game backed up by the frame data and combo potential of a rush-down character. This is also why Sheik is better than Diddy, because she can camp with needles but also is not free when her camp gets penetrated. They also have good recoveries and are excellent edgeguarders, which makes up for their lack of onstage KO potential.

To be honest I would've thought that someone like you who likes to study the game, and isn't afraid of an unconventional opinion would've looked at the data and realised Pika and Sheik straight up have better frame data than Diddy on top of less defensive flaws. Those count for more the higher the level of play, and the more fleshed out the meta becomes.

 

[Ffamran]

Frame data isn't everything. If it was, then Falco would be ranked much, much higher and Captain Falcon wouldn't be all that great.