Character Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

Oh, so it does. That was just off the top of my head. It needs to do like 2-3% less damage than it currently does, at any rate.

But then people would wonder how a mere 6% damaging aerial is killing with such ease (Smash Shulk aside).

 

[Terotrous]

Rule of cool, I guess, but it does allow for unpredictable plays. Being simple and effective is fine, but it can lead to being predictable.

Oh sure, it's definitely a strength. Abadango for example has tricks for days and he got a lot of wins at Apex.

Their biggest problem is probably that we just watch their videos and steal the best stuff for ourselves. Borrowing tech is very easy in Smash Bros compared to something like Street Fighter 4.

But then people would wonder how a mere 6% damaging aerial is killing with such ease (Smash Shulk aside).

It wouldn't anymore with that knockback growth reduction. He would have to start relying on FSmash if he wants early kills, and it takes a bit of a read to land.

In general, I feel like Diddy should follow the same basic paradigm as Sheik - strong neutral and combos, but has some difficulty getting kills. By contrast he's a bit safer than Sheik but not as mobile so they're not interchangeable.

(Note that Sheik does not exactly follow this paradigm because Bouncing Fish is too strong. It also likely needs a knockback nerf).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hate cycle niche?

A very bull**** character overshadowed by other bull**** characters, and when compared to them that one char doesn't seem bull****. And then you say meh that char is overrated.

Then that char fights a non top tier and you are like...hey...I call bull****.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sheik needs Needle nerfs more than Bouncing Fish nerfs. Killing as her is tough enough as is, but it is stupid how a character that safe when it comes to approaching is also able to outcamp and disrupt approaches so effortlessly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik needs Needle nerfs more than Bouncing Fish nerfs. Killing as her is tough enough as is, but it is stupid how a character that safe when it comes to approaching is also able to outcamp and disrupt approaches so effortlessly.

Don't nerf the sexiness my niggah

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Don't nerf the sexiness my *****h

Shiek does not need nerfs as of yet in my opinion. if i can somehow manage that mu with samus. i think shes good.

 

[David Viran]

Oh sure, it's definitely a strength. Abadango for example has tricks for days and he got a lot of wins at Apex.

Their biggest problem is probably that we just watch their videos and steal the best stuff for ourselves. Borrowing tech is very easy in Smash Bros compared to something like Street Fighter 4.



It wouldn't anymore with that knockback growth reduction. He would have to start relying on FSmash if he wants early kills, and it takes a bit of a read to land.

In general, I feel like Diddy should follow the same basic paradigm as Sheik - strong neutral and combos, but has some difficulty getting kills. By contrast he's a bit safer than Sheik but not as mobile so they're not interchangeable.

(Note that Sheik does not exactly follow this paradigm because Bouncing Fish is too strong. It also likely needs a knockback nerf).

Bf kills Mario at 120% from the ledge on FD that's not would not something I would call too much raw kill power.

 

[Terotrous]

Sheik needs Needle nerfs more than Bouncing Fish nerfs. Killing as her is tough enough as is, but it is stupid how a character that safe when it comes to approaching is also able to outcamp and disrupt approaches so effortlessly.

Eh, while it is true that weakening Needle would reduce her effectiveness more than Bouncing Fish, I feel that Needle fits her design paradigm better than Bouncing Fish does.

The main reason that some characters end up being "broken" is generally because they have moves that allow them to function beyond the intended limitations of their design, so the way to fix the game is generally to adjust these moves, rather than reducing their intended strengths.

 

[Locuan]

Just because a certain character does good against a match-up or has safe options that doesn't warrant that character having a nerf. Additionally, it might just mean that other characters need buffs. Regardless, at this point I find nerf debates unnecessary when we should be focusing on how to improve characters specific meta games or our personal goals with the tools we currently have.

 

[Terotrous]

Bf kills Mario at 120% from the ledge on FD that's not would not something I would call too much raw kill power.

The thing is she can frequently combo into it from deep offstage, at which point it kills at pretty low percentages. Perhaps we should be adjusting that instead, say, by limiting Bouncing Fish to once per airtime and making Vanish not go quite as far, preventing her from going quite so deep. Either way though she has too much kill power for a "fast and annoying" type character and Bouncing Fish is a lot of how she gets those kills.

Just because a certain character does good against a match-up or has safe options that doesn't warrant that character having a nerf. Additionally, it might just mean that other characters need buffs.

Yes, as a corollary to what I said above, often if a character is bad, it's because they have some issue which prevents them from functioning in their intended design paradigm. For example, Samus is supposed to be a zoner, but her projectiles just aren't threatening enough for her to function in this manner. Rather than making other characters' approaching options worse, her projectiles just need buffs, especially her garbagey missiles and bombs.

She also needs some CQC buffs, not enough to make her a CQC expert, but enough that she can fend people off a little bit if they get too close and then get back to zoning.

 

[Ffamran]

Oh sure, it's definitely a strength. Abadango for example has tricks for days and he got a lot of wins at Apex.

Their biggest problem is probably that we just watch their videos and steal the best stuff for ourselves. Borrowing tech is very easy in Smash Bros compared to something like Street Fighter 4.

No kidding, have you seen the cookie cutter Diddys, Ness, Luigis, Sheiks, Rosalinas, ZSS, Foxes, and... Everyone? Well, almost everyone.

You could watch anyone and pick up something, but the more crazy and more precision stuff like is more difficult. That adding in with simple, effective combos makes a fantastic player. Being able to do wacky things and having fundamentals and bread and butter combos means someone could have an answer for any situation.

It's sort of why I feel like people can play against Diddys even with bad matchup, but the creative Diddys will destroy. Everyone knows about his D-throw and Uair, but when Diddy mixes up with U-throw, Dtilt, etc., it gets dangerous.

 

[Unknownkid]

Nothing feels as satisfying as seeing someone destroy Diddy with Custom Combos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY

Something to look forward to the custom metagame. I cannot wait to see other tricks players can come up with custom moves.

Edit: It is not my video. My skype chat posted this and I decided to share it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sheik needs Needle nerfs more than Bouncing Fish nerfs. Killing as her is tough enough as is, but it is stupid how a character that safe when it comes to approaching is also able to outcamp and disrupt approaches so effortlessly.

Smash 4 Sheik is like the least intimidating "top" character ever.

Diddy would probably be fine with his current kit if his weight was dropped.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Smash 4 Sheik is like the least intimidating "top" character ever.

Speaking as someone currently playing against Xawas: **** your opinion.

 

[wedl!!]

Smash 4 Sheik is like the least intimidating "top" character ever.

what the **** are you on

 

[Terotrous]

You could watch anyone and pick up something, but the more crazy and more precision stuff like is more difficult. That adding in with simple, effective combos makes a fantastic player. Being able to do wacky things and having fundamentals and bread and butter combos means someone could have an answer for any situation.

It's really the fundamentals that makes the difference. In Smash, the execution barrier is not very high, so pretty much everyone can just watch a combo and then do it themselves. When I saw Snow (I think that was his name) do Fox Nair to USmash at S@X, I was like "yoink" and I was pulling that off vs real opponents literally one game later (and I don't even play Fox!). Stuff like Perfect Pivot is a little tougher, but certainly all the pros have the execution skill to do it. The key is knowing when to use these things and how to win the neutral so you can get the chance to do your combos, which is a lot more nuanced.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Speaking as someone currently playing against Xawas: **** your opinion.

Fox and Mk were far more problematic. Smash 4 Sheik isn't making me consider dropping a character for better coverage.

what the **** are you on

Shulk and Kirby life is what I'm on. Literally out of Sonic, Sheik and Diddy, Sheik has posed the least problems.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nothing feels as satisfying as seeing someone destroy Diddy with Custom Combos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY

Something to look forward to the custom metagame. I cannot wait to see other tricks players can come up with custom moves.

Amazing stuff, thanks for sharing.

 

[Jaxas]

Nothing feels as satisfying as seeing someone destroy Diddy with Custom Combos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY

Something to look forward to the custom metagame. I cannot wait to see other tricks players can come up with custom moves.

Huh, I didn't know you could combo like that out of Luigi's Iceballs; that could be really neat.
Also, Quickfire bow: Is that basically a weaker version of Falco's Melee/Brawl lasers? (Land with little lag, solid range, etc?)

 

[warionumbah2]

Real talk though, Diddy and Sonic are ******* to fight but i never really fear Sheik as much as those 2.

ZSS and Sonic are currently the most intimidating imo.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I agree with @ ChronoPenguin Shiek is the least intimidating of the top tiers. she the only one considered top 5 with out any serious jank. She can actually be out played.

 

[Smog Frog]

may i ask whats keeping custom palutena from the absolute top tier? she's like 2x as mobile as sheik lol with jump glide, lightweight, and super speed.

you thought sonic was rollin around at the speed of sound palutenas flyin around at the speed of light

 

[Hippieslayer]

what with her guaranteed kills from grab I dont know lol

I guess her damage output isn't that impressive and her tilts and projectiles suck or something : D

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

may i ask whats keeping custom palutena from the absolute top tier? she's like 2x as mobile as sheik lol with jump glide, lightweight, and super speed.

you thought sonic was rollin around at the speed of sound palutenas flyin around at the speed of light

I'd like to add that she also has a guaranteed KO off of a throw at ~90% (Lightweight dthrow to uair.) That's a very valuable tool. In addition she has a great combo game and good approach tools with Superspeed and Jump Glide, so I'm also wondering why she isn't very high.

 

[19_]

may i ask whats keeping custom palutena from the absolute top tier? she's like 2x as mobile as sheik lol with jump glide, lightweight, and super speed.

you thought sonic was rollin around at the speed of sound palutenas flyin around at the speed of light

She is incredibly hard to play due to the speed itself, not to mention many of her attacks have crazy lag. Learning this character takes A LOT of patience.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

what with her guaranteed kills from grab I dont know lol

I guess her damage output isn't that impressive and her tilts and projectiles suck or something : D

Speaking of which, I have a theory. Get ready, this is pretty crazy.

If a character has useless moves, then you will have more success if you don't use those moves. :D

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Speaking of which, I have a theory. Get ready, this is pretty crazy.

If a character has useless moves, then you will have more success if you don't use those moves. :D

What move is useless though?

 

[ramskick]

I agree with @ ChronoPenguin Shiek is the least intimidating of the top tiers. she the only one considered top 5 with out any serious jank. She can actually be out played.

Yeah with Sheik she doesn't really have anything that's necessarily broken like Diddy or Sonic. She is an all around very good character but I've never faced a Sheik that I've thought was unbeatable.

 

[Antonykun]

Fox and Mk were far more problematic. Smash 4 Sheik isn't making me consider dropping a character for better coverage.
Shulk and Kirby life is what I'm on. Literally out of Sonic, Sheik and Diddy, Sheik has posed the least problems.

I play Villager, Sheik IS the reason I play Pikachu.

 

[Yokoblue]

I play Villager, Sheik IS the reason I play Pikachu.

I play pikachu.. Used to play Yoshi... Stopped because of sheik

 

[Dre89]

Yeah with Sheik she doesn't really have anything that's necessarily broken like Diddy or Sonic. She is an all around very good character but I've never faced a Sheik that I've thought was unbeatable.

She has wall of pains that are harder to DI than hoo hah. I'm pretty sure she has come true combos out of grab and ftilt too but I can't remember off the top of the head. Probably the dumbest thing though is that SH fair is unpunishable by pretty much like 95% of the cast.

 

[David Viran]

She has wall of pains that are harder to DI than hoo hah. I'm pretty sure she has come true combos out of grab and ftilt too but I can't remember off the top of the head. Probably the dumbest thing though is that SH fair is unpunishable by pretty like 95% of the cast.

You know sheild grabs still work onn her fair if in range. As long as your grab is like frame 8 or lower or something you can sheild grab it. A spaced fair is different though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What move is useless though?

Palutena's D-tilt (or tilts in general, people have said.) Maybe Diddy's jab combo. You know what I mean.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Palutena's D-tilt (or tilts in general, people have said.) Maybe Diddy's jab combo. You know what I mean.

Palutena's utilt is actually a very good antiair since she lowers her hurtbox and extends a disjointed long lasting multihit move. It might even combo into uair with Lightweight active, but that needs more testing. Her ftilt and dtilt are pretty bad though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Palutena's utilt is actually a very good antiair since she lowers her hurtbox and extends a disjointed long lasting multihit move. It might even combo into uair with Lightweight active, but that needs more testing. Her ftilt and dtilt are pretty bad though.

Hey that's pretty cool actually :3

 

[Pyr]

Nothing feels as satisfying as seeing someone destroy Diddy with Custom Combos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY

Something to look forward to the custom metagame. I cannot wait to see other tricks players can come up with custom moves.

Edit: It is not my video. My skype chat posted this and I decided to share it.

7:12

Falco's B-Throw:

Did his custom Neutral B come out along with one of his lasers, or am I seeing things?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

7:12

Falco's B-Throw:

Did his custom Neutral B come out along with one of his lasers, or am I seeing things?

Falco's throws get visual makeovers depending on which neutral special he's using. I don't think it affects damage or knockback though.

The same applies to Fox.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Palutena's D-tilt (or tilts in general, people have said.) Maybe Diddy's jab combo. You know what I mean.

there not useless though. just highly situational/ less rewarding. but not useless.

 

[NairWizard]

Sheik is abusable. She has a humanoid frame and fastfall speed, which means that many characters have hilarious combos/setups on her (she's not like Diddy with a 3-frame escape option that will KO you, though she has a better recovery in exchange for that, so maybe the comparison is apt).

While Bouncing Fish makes her disadvantage tolerable, Sheik excels in neutral. Top neutral game in the game, flat out. To be Top Tier, Sheik relies on the player playing her to have full control over the neutral at all times. Thus Sheik is one of those characters that only seems unbeatable at the highest levels.

The same cannot be said for Diddy. Anyone at any level can perform d-throw followups.

It takes a truly monstrous Sheik to put the fear in you.

But once it's there, oh man is it there.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sheik is abusable. She has a humanoid frame and fastfall speed, which means that many characters have hilarious combos/setups on her (she's not like Diddy with a 3-frame escape option that will KO you, though she has a better recovery in exchange for that, so maybe the comparison is apt).

While Bouncing Fish makes her disadvantage tolerable, Sheik excels in neutral. Top neutral game in the game, flat out. To be Top Tier, Sheik relies on the player playing her to have full control over the neutral at all times. Thus Sheik is one of those characters that only seems unbeatable at the highest levels.

The same cannot be said for Diddy. Anyone at any level can perform d-throw followups.

It takes a truly monstrous Sheik to put the fear in you.

But once it's there, oh man is it there.

surpisingly very little good shiek mains where i live so that could definitly be a benifactor to why i have not gotten this cold blight of shiek-itis
But oh boy iv been scarred by meta knight.