Character Competitive Impressions

[Teshie U]

I find it hard to see slingshot as annoying when my region has half a dozen megaman players.

Villager is landing lag. Villager just shoots one little pellet at you. Villager can't throw it out close range because of blind spots.

 

[Ffamran]

I find it hard to see slingshot as annoying when my region has half a dozen megaman players.

Villager is landing lag. Villager just shoots one little pellet at you. Villager can't throw it out close range because of blind spots.

You don't play as Falco who get's pelted by stones like the poor bird he is. It's always bird season when Villager finds Falco...

At least with Mega Man, the lemons don't do a ton of knockback like Villager's... speaking of which, why, JUST WHY does Villager's Side Smash kill at 30% at center stage?

 

[Gunla]

You don't play as Falco who get's pelted by stones like the poor bird he is. It's always bird season when Villager finds Falco...

At least with Mega Man, the lemons don't do a ton of knockback like Villager's... speaking of which, why, JUST WHY does Villager's Side Smash kill at 30% at center stage?

It's a bowling ball... It'd pack a punch, yeah?

It's relatively telegraphed, easy to spot, but it pulverizes. And it does very well.

 

[Ffamran]

It's a bowling ball... It'd pack a punch, yeah?

It's relatively telegraphed, easy to spot, but it pulverizes. And it does very well.

But it shouldn't kill at 30%!

I should stop running into attacks for no reason... It's how Falco's foot was crushed in that fight...

And that stupid Side Smash spam off the ledge that Villager can do... RAGE!!! Almost everything about Villager infuriates me, especially the Final Smash that reminds you about your debt that keeps growing and growing. Anyway, stupid question because I don't know Villager that well, but does Uair and Dair work through a RNG system?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I should stop running into attacks for no reason

Tell that to everyone who fights mario.

 

[Antonykun]

But it shouldn't kill at 30%!

I should stop running into attacks for no reason... It's how Falco's foot was crushed in that fight...

And that stupid Side Smash spam off the ledge that Villager can do... RAGE!!! Almost everything about Villager infuriates me, especially the Final Smash that reminds you about your debt that keeps growing and growing. Anyway, stupid question because I don't know Villager that well, but does Uair and Dair work through a RNG system?

Oh... I see how it is...

Actually against Falco, Villager should just fling herself onto him to edgeguard.
Also, yes.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh... I see how it is...

Actually against Falco, Villager should just fling herself onto him to edgeguard.
Also, yes.

Oh how terrible this must be for you. Worst nightmare for anyone advocating a character just for everyone to realize every word is true than jump the op ban wagon.

 

[derpcube]

Villager's a pain to fight, though. The way Villager can shut people down with Fair and Bair is obnoxious. Who thought it was a good idea to give a character two projectile aerials that strong?! Oh, right, the same developers who thought it was a good idea for Zelda to have three sweet-spot aerials and that a tipper-less "Marth" is a beginner's character.

Villiger is an easy opponent to fight in my opinion. Annoying yes, hard? no.

Link/Toon link are the most boring people to fight. 99% of the time all they ever do is stay on one side of the stage and use side special and N special.

Rob is a total butt to fight however, the fact that his laser charges up so fast annoys me.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Villiger is an easy opponent to fight in my opinion. Annoying yes, hard? no.

Link/Toon link are the most boring people to fight. 99% of the time all they ever do is stay on one side of the stage and use side special and N special.

Rob is a total butt to fight however, the fact that his laser charges up so fast annoys me.

Not to call you out persay but this reeks of for glory experience.

 

[derpcube]

It is. Call me a newb smasher if you will. I don't really get to fight people that are a challenge. Thats why I joined smashboards to step out of the for glory grey area.

But I rarely post here so nothing much gets done.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It is. Call me a newb smasher if you will. I don't really get to fight people that are a challenge. Thats why I joined smashboards to step out of the for glory grey area.

But I rarely post here so nothing much gets done.

oh well keep an eye on this thread then perhaps you will learn somthing when we are being productive Xd.

 

[webbedspace]

Just watched the aforementioned CLASHTournaments stream, and the compere just said that Smashville is Mac's best starter stage* after FD.

I mean... Is it really such a huge secret that Mac can up-smash Battlefield's platforms and not Smashville's platform? Or that he can't grab the edge of the Smashville platform when it's past the main platform? Does the general public really not understand the character beyond "wide = good"?

*Presumably Duck Hunt and FD would both be struck in a 5-starter list.

 

[Ffamran]

Tell that to everyone who fights mario.

I do this while fighting everyone and I do this in a lot of games. In a way, it's a bit intimidating to see someone just rush into attacks madly trying to murder you and it's also hilarious to see someone just not caring about projectiles and taking stupid hits. Falco's not supposed to tank hits, but Ike and Ganondorf sure as hell can.

Oh... I see how it is...

Actually against Falco, Villager should just fling herself onto him to edgeguard.
Also, yes.

Hey, how would you feel if your foot got smushed by a bowling ball?

Falco getting hit period is the end of his game unless he doesn't get hit after. Shulk at least has the Monado Arts and the Monaco's range while Captain Falcon has weight and fall speed not to mention good ranged aerials, but once Falco gets hit, it's game over, man. Nair isn't going to do much and has little range while Bair requires Falco to be able to hit from behind... Why didn't he keep his Bair from Melee and Brawl...

The characters that can just throw themselves onto Falco and drag him to the blast zone to edgeguard him include Jigglypuff, Villager, the Pits, Kirby, Meta Knight, Shulk, and probably customs Palutena. Characters that can murder Falco to edgeguard him include Zelda, Peach, Rosalina, Luigi, Ganondorf, Robin, Ike - needs to be careful, though -, ZSS, DK, Charizard, ROB, and Captain Falcon. One hit from them means a dead bird. Characters that can reach over the ledge and kill him include Triple D, Link, Rosalina (through Luma), Ike, Ganondorf, Shulk, Little Mac, Fox - I think Side Smash can -, Greninja, Villager, Palutena - Up Smash -, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and Lucina.

Falco always had an issue with being gimped and easily edgeguarded. To add insult to injury, his disadvantage state is horrible since he doesn't have that many options to escape, neutral's not that great either since he has no reliable way to approach, but his fast, ground moves make it easy for him to poke, and his advantage isn't that great since he doesn't instill the fear or have that power Ganondorf and Luigi have. Granted, his ability to edgeguard by going deep and gimp and his air game because of his jump height are fantastic.

 

[Nocally]

What's the general consensus on Pika atm

Personally I reckon he's top 3, but he takes time and no one is likely to prove it with results now that ESAM has quit

General consensus (from this thread) is that Pikachu is easily a top 10 character, maybe top 3-5 too. Pikachus problems is exactly what you wrote yourself. Depending on how a tier list is formed, I could easily see Pikachu out of the absolute top (with and without customs) Simply because Pikachu, and Yoshi at the moment, have the least impact in the meta game at the moment.

 

[Shaya]

Whoa, slow down there.
Falco neutral is pretty a-okay.

And he has a pretty okay match up against Villager~
I'm not sure what the point of that post was when the majority of it just said "people can hit falco out of side-b".
Yes, characters can hit you out of your non-invincible or super armor recovery moves, or ones that don't have massive disjoints covering them.

 

[meleebrawler]

At least Falco has a custom that lets him (mostly) avoid the issue of being hit out of it,
if you don't mind not using it as an attack.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I keep hearing that Pika's ground game is godlike. What am I missing? Is it just his low profile + dtilt?

 

[Hippieslayer]

I hope there are DHD's out there practicing Zig Zag Can, else that character gon be left in the dust

 

[wedl!!]

I keep hearing that Pika's ground game is godlike. What am I missing? Is it just his low profile + dtilt?

his ground game is so good because of how insane qa is

most characters lack attacks that beat it out

 

[Shaya]

I keep hearing that Pika's ground game is godlike. What am I missing? Is it just his low profile + dtilt?

More like amazinggggggggggg up tilt + mostly average to above average moves + low profile = PRETTY ALRIGHT ground game (this is a bait: down tilt is okay ). Then you add Up-B/Quick Attack. That's kinda nonsense. But I don't think it's a given he has godlike anything otherwise.

(I'm going to have to make the call right now: Pikachu will have the same hate cycle niche in Smash 4 as Marth did in Brawl; Pika was almost there already considering that whole "50:50" with MK thing).
Let's march on Rat's Landing and take the Electric Throne!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hate cycle niche?

 

[Nobie]

Pikachu can duck under Mega Man's grab, and Mega Man isn't exactly tall.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pikachu can duck under Mega Man's grab, and Mega Man isn't exactly tall.

Sorry that.....that just sounds wonderfull.

From a spectators point of view.

 

[wm1026]

Pikachu can also low profile links up smash with his back air

 

[Dre89]

Pikachu is top 3 easily. I think potential-wise he's better than Diddy but Diddy will get better results due to higher percent reward on hit and general ease of use.

I think Pikachu beats Diddy. Pikachu can just camp Diddy with jolts and quick attacks and punish his approaches. Everyone talks about how scary Diddy's pressure is, but he's quite punishable by characters with comparable or better frame data who force him to approach. It's hard for Diddy to get his nana game going as Pika is slippery and jolts one-shot nanas as well as just covering Pika's hurtbox a lot of the time. Pikachu also completely wrecks his recovery too.

Stage selection is kinda awkward too seeing as Battlefield, normally the stage of choice for rushdown characters, aids Pika's camping thanks to the platforms. Of course FD isn't great either because the size naturally aids camping too. So Diddy's best bet would be gimmicky stuff like Halberd for the low ceiling.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I honestly don't care who's top 3, as long as people aren't putting Yoshi in that spot.

 

[Ffamran]

Whoa, slow down there.
Falco neutral is pretty a-okay.

And he has a pretty okay match up against Villager~
I'm not sure what the point of that post was when the majority of it just said "people can hit falco out of side-b".
Yes, characters can hit you out of your non-invincible or super armor recovery moves, or ones that don't have massive disjoints covering them.

It's just so demoralizing getting beat up. ;_;

I guess the point is that anyone can edgeguard anyone, it's just people don't know how to do so safely and reliably. I mean, you see people watching Villager's Balloon Trip and wonder how they're going to stop that without screwing themselves over or seeing people let Diddy come back over and over despite having an exploitable recovery. Yes, actively going to edgeguard does create this giant side of, "Warning! Danger ahead; someone's getting desperate for a kill." There's a point of playing safe for kills and going all out that I feel if someone could shift back and forth, it could be a mind game. "When is he going to edgeguard me", "Why did he let me back on the stage?", "Whoa, he just wrecked me off stage", etc.

It's dangerous, but I bet someone could just get hit by Luigi's recovery to stop his momentum. In theory, it could work, but in practice, it's risky since Luigi can drag you down with him or take a stock and recover. The same can be said about Ike who if he's using Quickdraw to recover, taking a hit might be worth it or not. Still, someone like Pit who can easily edgeguard Ike with Guardian Orbitars could fly out and have Ike hit him while using Guardian Orbitars and gimp him. Not a safe, but stylish points, I guess.

I should stop making posts around 3:00 am; I get stupid during that time...

Anyway, I know Falco's disadvantage is bad, but I don't really know how to describe his neutral and disadvantage. He can't force approaches safely, but someone approaching him is a good deal for Falco because aside from Side Smash, all of his ground moves come out at below frame 9 along with a frame 5 Reflector or a frame 9 Reflector Void. Add in Bair, Uair, and Nair, Falco can punish someone getting close to him or poke well for free damage. Running into Falco means free damage to Falco. As for advantage, it's mostly the issue of can Falco land the kill hit which he has many. Other than that, Falco's advantage means death or a ton of damage even without a grab because he'll keep applying pressure. How that spells out in good, great, so-so, okay, meh, I don't know.

At least Falco has a custom that lets him (mostly) avoid the issue of being hit out of it,
if you don't mind not using it as an attack.

Or the end lag and the slightly shorter distance.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Just watched the aforementioned CLASHTournaments stream, and the compere just said that Smashville is Mac's best starter stage* after FD.

I mean... Is it really such a huge secret that Mac can up-smash Battlefield's platforms and not Smashville's platform? Or that he can't grab the edge of the Smashville platform when it's past the main platform? Does the general public really not understand the character beyond "wide = good"?

*Presumably Duck Hunt and FD would both be struck in a 5-starter list.

Since this got completely skipped over...yeah, apparently it is a secret. I pointed out in chat that Mac should have struck Smashville but I guess no one noticed/listened.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't know any more about Pikachu beating Diddy. At my last tournament, I lost 1-3 to a regional top Diddy in Winners Finals, and won 3-2 and 3-1 in Grand Finals in Diddy dittos. After that, in a friendly set I again lost 1-3 to that Diddy as Pikachu, but won a followup friendly set 3-0 with Luigi.

The Diddy metagame has outpaced my understanding of the MU, especially with this new up-throw technology. The matchup feels like a 50:50 now to me (I say this despite my loss; it's possible that my Pikachu play has been off the past few weeks due to my investment in learning other characters). Diddy is rocketing beyond his old "grab, roll, grab" metagame, and it's rather frightening. I do still think that Pikachu and Sheik are better with customs off, but at least from my Pikachu's perspective, Diddy's gotten a lot harder to beat if he's playing well.

@ Dre89
tjolt camping has never been an effective strategy and never will be against most characters with decent walk speed. Putting yourself in the air against Diddy isn't that great, to be honest, not when he has a 3-frame disjointed up-air and a f-air the size of a small helicopter. You'd rather crawl and d-tilt him in most cases. Battlefield gives you the option of QA canceling all over the place, so that's cool, but I'd always counterpick Diddy to Lylat. It's probably Pikachu's best stage, you can QA cancel on the body of the stage due to the tilting, and the lip can mess with Diddy's recovery (meanwhile, it does nothing to Pikachu's recovery, really).

 

[Antonykun]

I don't know any more about Pikachu beating Diddy. At my last tournament, I lost 1-3 to a regional top Diddy in Winners Finals, and won 3-2 and 3-1 in Grand Finals in Diddy dittos. After that, in a friendly set I again lost 1-3 to that Diddy as Pikachu, but won a followup friendly set 3-0 with Luigi.

The Diddy metagame has outpaced my understanding of the MU, especially with this new up-throw technology. The matchup feels like a 50:50 now to me (I say this despite my loss; it's possible that my Pikachu play has been off the past few weeks due to my investment in learning other characters). Diddy is rocketing beyond his old "grab, roll, grab" metagame, and it's rather frightening. I do still think that Pikachu and Sheik are better with customs off, but at least from my Pikachu's perspective, Diddy's gotten a lot harder to beat if he's playing well.

@ Dre89
tjolt camping has never been an effective strategy and never will be against most characters with decent walk speed. Putting yourself in the air against Diddy isn't that great, to be honest, not when he has a 3-frame disjointed up-air and a f-air the size of a small helicopter. You'd rather crawl and d-tilt him in most cases. Battlefield gives you the option of QA canceling all over the place, so that's cool, but I'd always counterpick Diddy to Lylat. It's probably Pikachu's best stage, you can QA cancel on the body of the stage due to the tilting, and the lip can mess with Diddy's recovery (meanwhile, it does nothing to Pikachu's recovery, really).

Isn't that the biggest argument against top tiers?
they look strong so people will gravitate towards them and then advance their meta while the other characters are left in the dust?
It sucks a lot but i guess that means the other metas have to try and keep up. :/

 

[thehard]

Isn't that the biggest argument against top tiers?
they look strong so people will gravitate towards them and then advance their meta while the other characters are left in the dust?
It sucks a lot but i guess that means the other metas have to try and keep up. :/

Also keeping in mind that better, smarter players often gravitate to the top tiers in the first place, because they want to win. (I don't mean this negatively of course)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Isn't that the biggest argument against top tiers?
they look strong so people will gravitate towards them and then advance their meta while the other characters are left in the dust?
It sucks a lot but i guess that means the other metas have to try and keep up. :/

Yo sleepers are hype and is legitimatly why i come to this very thread. I dunno about everyone else but i personally feel like our discussions actually open up minds. Or at least we take a look at the competitive aspects of every character from the same drawing board.
It's almost became routine to me. But i honeslty feel many of us on this thread (and the many loyal labbers down at the character boards) are developing meta's in any little way we can. I personally think this very specific thread though, just finds the most interesting things/ has the most insightfull discussions.

When we are not hyping over the latest xanadu of course. "oh my god boss's luigi so sleeper tier anti meta awsomeness swoooon"

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Isn't that the biggest argument against top tiers?
they look strong so people will gravitate towards them and then advance their meta while the other characters are left in the dust?
It sucks a lot but i guess that means the other metas have to try and keep up. :/

Eventually, they will. Look at Brawl Olimar or Melee Jigglypuff. Maybe at first nobody acknowledged them, but now they're pretty dominant. It just takes a while for us to get there.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I was never around for the early days of Melee. I wonder if the focus was so narrow too in the beginning, before people really branched out with the cast. It just seems like everyone has a pocket Diddy these days and just don't wanna commit when you watch these streams.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I was never around for the early days of Melee. I wonder if the focus was so narrow too in the beginning, before people really branched out with the cast. It just seems like everyone has a pocket Diddy these days and just don't wanna commit when you watch these streams.

Melee? Not narrow? Are we speaking about the same game here? You know while most people hate it there's a reason the whole "no items fox only final destination" exists.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If you think Diddy is handled through his recovery then Wtf is default Duck Hunt Dog.

People point this out alot, but I'm not sure having Axe as a kill move is as important as timber counter for this character design. Villager has all of his aerials killings, bowling ball covering rolls safely and is really more about stage control. Outfitting him for that I think is more relevant than another laggy kill move he can throw out.

The Axe has value, but I don't think its nearly as much as the tree and sapling.

I also believe the Axe is being overstated but I also think the sampling is being over hyped.
Multiple movement abilities go right past it uninterrupted. Pacmans trampoline doesn't last as long but also stifles the ground game when set up.

I wouldn't be too worried about villager, he can't play that game on pit and numerous characters get piercing projectile options on customs.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi's hardest matchup is Sheik, if it hasn't been said already.

toughest Fox MU is definitely not Mac. The consensus leans more towards Luigi and Yoshi being his hardest.

Lol, I think the Yoshi vs Fox MU may just suck for everyone. As a Yoshi player, I also hate playing it. It's really volatile and one wrong move can mean death (for either player).

This is probably like a 3-3 matchup, it's really just a loss for everyone involved.

@CrimsonSmasher I legit just had to look at Brawl Meta Knight's match-up chart to prove that that is completely false lol.

I would love for there to be a character that goes 40-60 in every match-up in this game, just to experiment how far the character would go. I think the character would go to high mid just for the basic virtue that you basically just have a slight disadvantage but it's easily made up by skill and if you get really good with said character you don't have to worry about anything lol.

Keep in mind that 60-40 is -2, and a character who is -2 across the board is pretty atrocious. You probably want 45-55. How good said character would be depends on just how dominant the top tier is. If the top tier is so dominant that most of the cast is -2 or -3, then merely being -1 is great. If the game is relatively balanced, the character who is -1 to everyone is the worst in the game, no question.

Maybe it's just I'm still putting Japan on a pedestal as if they're some gods or something while we're all trash.

You definitely shouldn't be, Smash is one of the few fighting games where the US consistently wrecks Japan.

In Smash, I've noticed that the Japanese players are really creative with their characters, but they don't quite have the same fundamentals as the top US players.

I think if they were to nerf Diddy they only really need to tone down his uair. They shouldn't kill it but like make it kill a little later nerf the hitbox slightly and add a few more frames of end lag and it will be fine. As it is it is such a overpowering kill move that kills super early and frame traps air dodges super hard with a million ways to set it up.

On GF my suggestion was:

Uair startup increased to 5F, damage reduced from 10%-7%, knockback growth reduced so that it doesn't kill until ~130% after a DThrow.
(The main reason for the damage nerf is that the reduced knockback will allow the double Uair combo to work more often).

However, I think it's possible that Fair may also need some knockback growth reduction for Diddy to be "fair".

I think it's worth pointing out that Mew2King has said that he would be maining Sheik in Smash 4 if not for the fact that he doesn't want it to inadvertently weaken or mess up his Melee Sheik.

Same thing goes for AmSa and Yoshi.

I can't figure out any way to appropriately post my thoughts about this that won't trigger a flame war.

My main struggles with Yoshi come from the fact that he can beat me no matter how I play. If I try to camp with lasers (not a good option to begin with) egg toss is a much better projectile so I have to approach and Yoshi straight up beats out a lot of Fox's approaches (SH nair in particular). Whenever I actually get close a quick jump puts him in a position with a few options to escape me. In short, Yoshi just beats Fox no matter what Fox tries to do (or so i've noticed).

I feel like staying grounded is the superior option for Fox here, that gives you the scary mixup of Grab vs UpSmash. If Yoshi jumps to try to avoid the situation that's when you start doing SH Uairs or whatever.

Granted, Fox's best approach is actually Fox Trot, since he gets way more good options out of it. You should try to stay close enough that you retain that option.

 

[David Viran]

Yoshi's hardest matchup is Sheik, if it hasn't been said already.



Lol, I think the Yoshi vs Fox MU may just suck for everyone. As a Yoshi player, I also hate playing it. It's really volatile and one wrong move can mean death (for either player).

This is probably like a 3-3 matchup, it's really just a loss for everyone involved.



Keep in mind that 60-40 is -2, and a character who is -2 across the board is pretty atrocious. You probably want 45-55. How good said character would be depends on just how dominant the top tier is. If the top tier is so dominant that most of the cast is -2 or -3, then merely being -1 is great. If the game is relatively balanced, the character who is -1 to everyone is the worst in the game, no question.



You definitely shouldn't be, Smash is one of the few fighting games where the US consistently wrecks Japan.

In Smash, I've noticed that the Japanese players are really creative with their characters, but they don't quite have the same fundamentals as the top US players.



On GF my suggestion was:

Uair startup increased to 5F, damage reduced from 10%-7%, knockback growth reduced so that it doesn't kill until ~130% after a DThrow.
(The main reason for the damage nerf is that the reduced knockback will allow the double Uair combo to work more often).

However, I think it's possible that Fair may also need some knockback growth reduction for Diddy to be "fair".



I can't figure out any way to appropriately post my thoughts about this that won't trigger a flame war.



I feel like staying grounded is the superior option for Fox here, that gives you the scary mixup of Grab vs UpSmash. If Yoshi jumps to try to avoid the situation that's when you start doing SH Uairs or whatever.

Granted, Fox's best approach is actually Fox Trot, since he gets way more good options out of it. You should try to stay close enough that you retain that option.

Diddy's uair does 8 percent of thought.

 

[Terotrous]

Diddy's uair does 8 percent of thought.

Oh, so it does. That was just off the top of my head. It needs to do like 2-3% less damage than it currently does, at any rate.

 

[Ffamran]

In Smash, I've noticed that the Japanese players are really creative with their characters, but they don't quite have the same fundamentals as the top US players.

Rule of cool, I guess, but it does allow for unpredictable plays. Being simple and effective is fine, but it can lead to being predictable.

Granted, Fox's best approach is actually Fox Trot, since he gets way more good options out of it. You should try to stay close enough that you retain that option.

Well, he is a fox.