Character Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

This is part of what I meant when discussing Samus's play style a while back. Because her attacks are often fairly quick but few of them are truly safe, it requires you to use risky mixups and even gamble a bit when in close quarters.

Also, re: Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch, whatever.

We can say how these moves are bad and no one should ever get hit by them, but they do. Good players, great players even, often eat a PAWNCH or an up-tilt or any number of things that "shouldn't" work.

Never said these things don't ever work. There are realistic reads you can make in a match against good players that allow you to land Warlock Punch, it's just that there are almost always safer options that give you better results overall. You can absolutely bait a counter or aerial Wizkick or something and land Warlock Punch even against great players, it's just usually not worth it to go for it when you have safer, more reliable alternatives to punish such laggy moves.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Random question: how do people feel about Duck Hunt nowadays? I remember how people swore that he was going to eventually climb to the top of the heap but it seems like no one uses him anymore. I feel like he's this game's ROB: a character people thought was stupidly good at first until people started to figure out the matchups and realized that the character had some unexpected counters.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Random question: how do people feel about Duck Hunt nowadays? I remember how people swore that he was going to eventually climb to the top of the heap but it seems like no one uses him anymore. I feel like he's this game's ROB: a character people thought was stupidly good at first until people started to figure out the matchups and realized that the character had some unexpected counters.

He is a very complex character, his metagame still has a ways to go imo. Brood took fourth with him at umbrera 13 like two days ago or something. He can net results. Seems high tier to me. Of course I don't know for sure, but these are my speculations.

Zig Zag Can also seems to have a lot of potential to me so I think that with customs on he might turn into quite a threat. Eventually that is, it's gonna take time for people to master DHD. Especially Zig Zag Can which is incredibly hard to use optimally.

 

[thehard]

on Team Sp00ky's stream: bad, passive Sonic gets timed out by Villager controlling the pace of the match

then, 6WX soundly destroys Villager (Zee!) and forces her to play Sonic's game and actually GOES OUT TO EDGEGUARD because even if you don't gimp you still rack on a ton of damage or potentially stage spike

Man I love this game

 

[Antonykun]

then, 6WX soundly destroys Villager (Zee!)

Well now I want to cry my favorite Villager player getting beaten by a sonic T.T

 

[Smog Frog]

Well now I want to cry my favorite Villager player getting beaten by a sonic T.T

at least know he was beaten by the best sonic in the world

dun cri

 

[Antonykun]

at least know he was beaten by the best sonic in the world

dun cri

Well sonic destroys villager and 6WX is amazing with that blue nightmare so if i was there i would be cheering for the underdog

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If you want, I can list all the reasons why they are low tier from an ex Swordfighter main.

Stahp hating. Sf has his own strengths. Twas just a local but it is for the best if players are more critical of how they come to their conclusions.

Random question: how do people feel about Duck Hunt nowadays? I remember how people swore that he was going to eventually climb to the top of the heap but it seems like no one uses him anymore. I feel like he's this game's ROB: a character people thought was stupidly good at first until people started to figure out the matchups and realized that the character had some unexpected counters.

I dont like his default kit. He feels like one of the easiest characters to intercept or trump. His kill power is lacking as well. Zig can is fairly ridiculous but I'm most interest in his recovery at all times. I go offstage a lot so I put a lot of emphasis on landing tools and recovery strength.
I didn't find him good in default given that.

 

[NairWizard]

@Locke 06

Pika's ledgegrab time is independent of using QA I believe.

Rain puts Sheik as best in game.
Plays Diddy.
Destroys everybody.

TYPICAL DIDDY MAINS.
amirite?

ZeRo and mew2king apparently continue to believe that Sheik > Diddy (ZeRo said especially with customs, but even without), both in the 1v1 matchup and on the tier list. It's a little bit reminiscent of MK mains in Brawl, I'll admit, but I do think that Sheik is marginally better, it's just... why bother with Sheik when you have Diddy? What do you gain from going one spot up?

A lot of Diddy's tactics are unexplored. n-air, pivot grabs, d-tilt pressure, up-b onstage... there's so much more that Diddys could be doing, that they aren't, and there's nowhere to go but up. The frightening secret that we're holding back in today's metagame is that Diddy is far more than just grab -> followup. If you took away Diddy's d-throw he'd still be one of the best characters in the game.



--


I've been playing against custom Rosalina a lot lately, and all I have to say is: screw that character, screw her to the dark, naked, cold oblivion of nonexistence, alongside Wolf.

I'm kidding. She is pretty fun to watch. But she is oh-so strong. (just quit, Solid, just quit. Then you will never eat another offstage Luma Warp into death ever again). She still loses to Diddy, but does she lose any other matchups? I seriously doubt it. Doesn't lose to Pikachu any more at least. How do I get in against Shooting Star Bit + Luma Warp?

 

[Antonykun]

Stahp hating. Sf has his own strengths. Twas just a local but it is for the best if players are more critical of how they come to their conclusions.

I dont like his default kit. He feels like one of the easiest characters to intercept or trump. His kill power is lacking as well. Zig can is fairly ridiculous but I'm most interest in his recovery at all times. I go offstage a lot so I put a lot of emphasis on landing tools and recovery strength.
I didn't find him good in default given that.

Oh no I'm not hating. If I really hated Swordfighter I would not drop in their forum to help advance the meta in whatever little way I can (seriously half the threads there are from me..including an old shame "Swordfighter sucks and so does Aerial Assault lol" thread). I was/still am quite happy about seeing Trela win with Swordfighter

Remember that low tier =/= bad just "not as good as some others"

I think we can all agree they are not as good as, say, Diddy, but that doesn't mean they are not Brawl Ganon/Melee Kirby where they are literally unplayable.

Like look at some characters who we could consider low tier
amazing defense and dirty kill setups
If you look up mike kirby your day will be made better
an amazing (but wonky) kit with great movement specs

These are all character who are still good and in the right hands can be deadly. Just look up Nairo's Zelda, Mike Kirby's Kirby, TK Breezy's WFT and you can still see that they are good. Same goes for Swordfighter, its just that they are lacking in representation.

 

[Ffamran]

Too lazy to actually type this out, so it's been copied from the Zelda Social, but it was posted first in the Falco boards:

Anyway, @zCyRo found out you can reflect Falco's Reflector: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIVa2g8zB9U. That confirms that Falco's Reflector is a projectile and what the Pits' Upperdash and Electroshock Arm were doing, but now I'm wondering if Pally's Reflect Barrier, Mario's Cape, Dr. Mario's Sheet, Zelda's Nayru's Love, and Fox's Reflector can do this. Also, Mega Man's Skull Barrier reflects, right? The thing is that since Falco's Reflector travels and the Arms have a unique property regarding projectiles, then maybe only Pally can reflect Reflector since it's outside and not close to or a part of them like Mario, Dr. Mario, Zelda, and Fox's reflect moves. It's also going to be a frame time thing since by default, it's out at frame 5 and traveling and common sense would say you can't reflect a Reflector.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Antonykun I definitely agree with most of what you're saying, but Brawl Ganon and Melee Kirby are not literally unplayable. Most people are able to choose Kirby in Melee and the game won't just crash. Just look at this guy.

Low-tiers in general generally just consists of characters with high risks and low rewards. There is still that in Smash 4 with someone like Zelda, just the difference that you won't get chain-grabbed by Sheik if you make a single mistake as Bowser kind of risk. You basically stated this, but I feel like your post understated this so I'm just telling this anyways.

 

[meleebrawler]

You can also "reflect" Pac-Man's Power Pellet, which seems to be no different from just attacking it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Random question: how do people feel about Duck Hunt nowadays? I remember how people swore that he was going to eventually climb to the top of the heap but it seems like no one uses him anymore. I feel like he's this game's ROB: a character people thought was stupidly good at first until people started to figure out the matchups and realized that the character had some unexpected counters.

This is exactly how I feel about Duck Hunt.

 

[Pyr]

This is exactly how I feel about Duck Hunt.

I agree with this, but where would customs Duck Hunt be? I know 0 people that play him with customs, so I really have no idea.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Custom Sheik craps on Diddy for sure.

Just putting that out there.

 

[Pyr]

Custom Sheik craps on Diddy for sure.

Just putting that out there.

What set up? I assume something with Side-B, as I find it hard to imagine Sheik without Bouncing Fish or Standard Needles.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of customs, Muramishi uploaded a combo video on them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGs7lgxAtXo. I think it's multiple players doing combos since Jei L. does some of the combo videos on Muramishi's channel.

 

[NairWizard]

What set up? I assume something with Side-B, as I find it hard to imagine Sheik without Bouncing Fish or Standard Needles.

2211

Penetrating Needles are way, way better than Standard Needles

2x full penetrating needles + f-tilt can break a standard shield

 

[thehard]

6WX took Dabuz to Game 5 GF after he reset the bracket. Last stock last hit situation. Even though he lost it literally could have gone either way. Exciting stuff. It makes me laugh that people INSIST you can't play aggressively successively in this game. It also makes me laugh that people insist Dabuz was camping when he literally wasn't. If anything 6WX forced him to aggress more.

Can't wait to make webms of all the 6WX edgeguards

 

[Emblem Lord]

2211

Penetrating Needles are way, way better than Standard Needles

2x full penetrating needles + f-tilt can break a standard shield

Yup. You can't block vs her anymore. See a shield. throw needles. And she is full charged after 3 so she always has them ready to go.

 

[Pyr]

2211

Penetrating Needles are way, way better than Standard Needles

2x full penetrating needles + f-tilt can break a standard shield

Yup. You can't block vs her anymore. See a shield. throw needles. And she is full charged after 3 so she always has them ready to go.

Never considered that. I'll have to try it. Thanks for letting me know. =D

 

[NairWizard]

Oh, dang, that reminds me. I should try custom Sheik vs. customs Rosalina. Penetrating Needles go through Luma! Oh, hype. Hyyyyyype.

 

[Seagull Joe]

See you again same time next week for "Is Lucina better then Marth?" as always.

Crouch ruining ZSS? No, and no one is advocating that. Crouch being relevant? Absolutely.
Kirby and puff don't really shift heights when they dtilt, compared to G&W. Just by going for a dtilt they remove X,Y and Z from hitting them. Puffs dtilt isn't all that but it's not ignorable given the context. If the predictability of crouch leads you to "ftilt and downsmash" assuredly it goes both ways, which is fine as it would be boring if it was cut and dry. It's not going to breakdown to just "hold crouch" either, especially since one of those characters is very air present but you can't simply dismiss it.

The Seagull salt was real. Chat blew up.

VGBC's chat is literal cancer.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So JohnNumbers' WFT vs. Will's DK on Spooky's stream was sort of insane. Battle of the crazy up specials. And now we have a WFT in grand finals.

Numbers also showed that Kong Cyclone is indeed punishable, although it seems to require something of a read to know where he's going and/or lucky initial positioning.

EDIT: And he's getting wrecked by Olimar. I'm thinking Sweeping Sun Salutation may be better for this specific matchup, it should go through the Pikmin.

 

[Jaxas]

That last game was an unfortunate way to end the tournament...

Anyways, Customs WFT is looking to be everything she was talked up to be and more. What is the counterplay to Jumbo Hoop? Obviously (transcendent especially) projectiles beat it, but what about for characters without them?

 

[Ffamran]

That last game was an unfortunate way to end the tournament...

Anyways, Customs WFT is looking to be everything she was talked up to be and more. What is the counterplay to Jumbo Hoop? Obviously (transcendent especially) projectiles beat it, but what about for characters without them?

How did it end? I was busy checking the directional input of my supposedly broken, first GCN controller. To sum it up: back in the days of Brawl, it would either move characters automatically or not take certain diagonal inputs. It's been like 5-6 years and it works fine now with Twilight Princess... I still want a Spice Orange GCN controller, though. Anyway, I digress.

 

[thehard]

Did anyone notice how there were like 5 or 6 timeouts or close calls on-stream compared to last time (0 timeouts IIRC) when Sp00ky was still doing 6 minutes?

Dabuz even said post-GF that he wasn't trying to time out (and it showed in his play), but the timer was just too short for comfortable, complete play. Matchups with characters that have trouble killing (like Kirby vs. WFT) also routinely got low on time or timed out entirely.

It's pretty disgusting to watch. Matches were going at a fine pace but that extra minute makes a world of difference.

Also for the record @#HBC | Bunzy you've got such a friendly disposition on stream it's hard to believe that people can hate you so much for good play. Another solid showing.

That 22% RosaLuma up-air cheese.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy definitely beats ZSS. But how is the matchup of Sheik vs ZSS? I think ZSS has an advantage there.

Yeah, Diddy definitely does.
Sheik match up feels and looks even a lot of the time, but it isn't.
Standard Sheik play has a lot of holes for ZSS to capitalise on, she's outranged, she's out damaged and gets combo'd to bits (and dies super early).

But passive Sheik with crouches, needles?
Well I don't think it's winnable with a 5 minute timer, to say the least.
It just takes wayyyyyyyyyyy too much time/effort to get in on Sheik. She can force each stock to be 3 minutes+ each and there's nothing most characters in the game can do about it.

Japan ruleset though? It's probably 50:50, maybe slight advantage either side (I'd give it to Sheik still). 7 minutes and lots of FD, delicious.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How did it end? I was busy checking the directional input of my supposedly broken, first GCN controller. To sum it up: back in the days of Brawl, it would either move characters automatically or not take certain diagonal inputs. It's been like 5-6 years and it works fine now with Twilight Princess... I still want a Spice Orange GCN controller, though. Anyway, I digress.

JohnNumbers SD'd twice, once when the transition from 3 > 1 ended up with him offstage (he probably expected to be on solid ground and Jumbo Hoops nerfs vertical recovery so he died) and the second time was when he used Jumbo Hoops and missed the ledge when it ended.

Especially unfortunate because he seemed to be mounting a pretty good comeback, but then it all fell apart.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Was this tournament using the 5 minute thing? I always thought reducing the time would increase the duration of the tournament. I would definitely go for time outs if I had the chance with a campy character like villager.

 

[Yikarur]

5 Minutes are terrible :/

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Was this tournament using the 5 minute thing? I always thought reducing the time would increase the duration of the tournament. I would definitely go for time outs if I had the chance with a campy character like villager.

It was 2 stock/5 minute, customs on.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Why is it 5 minutes? I don't really understand that though. To me it means everyone would have to play super conservative because of the limit.

 

[Shaya]

Melee is still 8 minutes right?

Why is it 5 minutes? I don't really understand that though. To me it means everyone would have to play super conservative because of the limit.

"Evo"
"we won't have the time for an extra minute to be added to the matches of 1000 players" - Wizard
"people play too passively in Smash 4, with 5 minutes you're forced to approach or go in quickly, leading to MORE EXCITEMENT AND STUFF, YEAH" - Melee community

 

[Ffamran]

JohnNumbers SD'd twice, once when the transition from 3 > 1 ended up with him offstage (he probably expected to be on solid ground and Jumbo Hoops nerfs vertical recovery so he died) and the second time was when he used Jumbo Hoops and missed the ledge when it ended.

Especially unfortunate because he seemed to be mounting a pretty good comeback, but then it all fell apart.

Wow, that definitely sucked since he had some serious momentum beating Mike Kirby, Vinnie, and Will before getting to Dabuz. Also, that unfortunate roll read that killed 6wX. The way 6wX used Hammer Spin Dash was pretty cool since he sort of uses it like an I-frame jump to different angles. The War of the Up Specials was funny too. I was really irriated when I saw Will die at 0% within seconds of the match starting to Dabuz's Luma's Uair.

 

[thehard]

I forgot if it was SheiKWill or Vinnie but one of them used Side-B to halt their mid-air momentum to avoid getting followed up on and I thought that was cute yeah. Also the MikeKirby and JohnNumbers footsie game was on point.

I am bugging Mr. Wizard on social media about the 5 minute timer (since I now have these Sp00ky sets as recent, hard proof of the timeout issue) if any of you want to join me. Maybe if there's enough uproar he'll acquiesce. Can't hurt to try.

 

[Ffamran]

I can't wait for that Mii Swordfighter with customs fight TKBreezy promised us yesterday night.

 

[Antonykun]

I can't wait for that Mii Swordfighter with customs fight TKBreezy promised us yesterday night.

He said what?! Hype Hype Hype

 

[Ffamran]

He said what?! Hype Hype Hype

He did, but I think he was joking or something. Still, TKBreezy said that he plays MSF... really? I just noticed that... Well, I guess I know what a Big Boss Mii should be. Anyway, TKBreezy said he plays MSF because nobody does and that he'd play MSF for some reason, especially with customs since they're fun which also makes TKBreezy become silly during matches because customs are wacky. I think that's what he said, but I don't remember and I don't remember when. It might have been before the finals between Seagull and Bengal.

Edit: TL;DR: We'll see on Tuesday's Xanadu.