Character Competitive Impressions

[Cypher99]

How soon can we expect a tier list?

 

[Antonykun]

How soon can we expect a tier list?

Why do you want a tier list?
Usually tier list talk tends to be very degenerate as people are all like "No my character is good they can be X tiered"

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How soon can we expect a tier list?

Why does it matter? Legit question. A tier list, as I see it, is first and foremost a representation of how the characters stack up overall in the meta at the time of the list's creation. The problem is that early in a game's life the meta is still very fluid and there aren't enough consistent results to draw reasonable conclusions. Hell, 1111 Swordfighter just won a local apparently. (Haven't actually gotten around to watching the VOD yet.) Meanwhile we have characters like WFT, DK, and Dr. Mario taking second or even first in a customs-enabled environment.

 

[Dre89]

Why do you want a tier list?
Usually tier list talk tends to be very degenerate as people are all like "No my character is good they can be X tiered"

Low tier mains think their character should be higher. High tier mains think theirs should be lower.

The cycle of life and death continues

We will live, they will die

 

[Ffamran]

Why do you want a tier list?
Usually tier list talk tends to be very degenerate as people are all like "No my character is good they can be X tiered"

HA! HA-HA! Falco's obviously the worst character in the game, fool! Foolish fools foolishly only know how to say foolish statements. C-c-c-combo breaker, you foolish fool! ... Wait a minute...

Yeah, tier lists won't be out for a while and even then, it's not going to be as crisp as a tier list made next year.

 

[Antonykun]

On tier lists, I aways saw them as a way to measure how capable a character is to winning a regional or higher, relative to the cast.

 

[Pyr]

Swordfighter just won... Well, anything. I think that is a sign that our game knowledge is too lacking for a tier list.

 

[Brinzy]

Usually tier list talk tends to be very degenerate as people are all like "No my character is good they can be X tiered"

Because Zelda CAN be top tier, u guys just need to find the potential or gtfo.

Swordfighter just won... Well, anything. I think that is a sign that our game knowledge is too lacking for a tier list.

Not to disrespect anyone else there in that tournament, but the guy playing Swordfighter is also significantly better than them.

 

[Antonykun]

Swordfighter just won... Well, anything. I think that is a sign that our game knowledge is too lacking for a tier list.

It's a common misconception that worst character = unplayable
Swordfighter is an amazing character in a game with other amazing characters

 

[Seagull Joe]

Customs force timeouts. Some customs make camping/avoiding combat a necessity. They're so bad for competitive play.

 

[Pyr]

Customs force timeouts. Some customs make camping/avoiding combat a necessity. They're so bad for competitive play.

Would you mind extrapolating, or providing examples, or... Anything to back up this claim at all? From what I've seen and experienced, it has not had this impact and characters actually gain more tools to deal with campy characters.

Open to ideas, don't get me wrong. Just make me see what you are seeing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking of tier lists, the way I see it one could get away with only 4 distinct tiers:

Top: Characters in this tier are capable of reliably placing top X on their own merits, without need for secondaries. (Substitute an appropriate number for "X" based on the overall size of the tournament.)

Viable: Characters in this tier aren't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but they have enough bad matchups to require a secondary or two in order to reliably place. "Volatile" may be a good word to describe these characters, since their performance depends on the characters they end up fighting.

Nonviable: Characters in this tier basically can't place well on their own at all, but can still be useful as secondaries or to take advantage of someone who hasn't learned the matchup.

Bottom: Characters in this tier have no reason to be used from a strictly competitive point of view. The only way someone should lose is because they've literally never fought that character before and don't know what to expect.

When I see lists like that recent Japanese one that has S, A+, A, A-, and so forth I just sort of roll my eyes and wonder why there seems to be almost a fetish surrounding such precise placement.

This has been random, possibly-pointless musings from moi. Probably a fair bit of oversimplification but I honestly have a hard time caring about tiers beyond the broad strokes.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Speaking of tier lists, the way I see it one could get away with only 4 distinct tiers:

Top: Characters in this tier are capable of reliably placing top X on their own merits, without need for secondaries. (Substitute an appropriate number for "X" based on the overall size of the tournament.)

Viable: Characters in this tier aren't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but they have enough bad matchups to require a secondary or two in order to reliably place. "Volatile" may be a good word to describe these characters, since their performance depends on the characters they end up fighting.

Nonviable: Characters in this tier basically can't place well on their own at all, but can still be useful as secondaries or to take advantage of someone who hasn't learned the matchup.

Bottom: Characters in this tier have no reason to be used from a strictly competitive point of view. The only way someone should lose is because they've literally never fought that character before and don't know what to expect.

When I see lists like that recent Japanese one that has S, A+, A, A-, and so forth I just sort of roll my eyes and wonder why there seems to be almost a fetish surrounding such precise placement.

This has been random, possibly-pointless musings from moi. Probably a fair bit of oversimplification but I honestly have a hard time caring about tiers beyond the broad strokes.

I would get rid of Bottom since there are virtually no characters than fall in the catagorey.
Otherwise solid list.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I would get rid of Bottom since there are virtually no characters than fall in the catagorey.
Otherwise solid list.

I'm not convinced any character in Smash 4 fits there, true, but for general purpose it's there.

 

[Cypher99]

Holy crap I just asked when we will get a tier list.

 

[moofpi]

JohnNumbers SD'd twice, once when the transition from 3 > 1 ended up with him offstage (he probably expected to be on solid ground and Jumbo Hoops nerfs vertical recovery so he died) and the second time was when he used Jumbo Hoops and missed the ledge when it ended.

Especially unfortunate because he seemed to be mounting a pretty good comeback, but then it all fell apart.

I didn't even know there was a tournament today but I'm glad the hype John Numbers was in GF. Wii Fit has been waiting for customs. Regarding the much hyped about Jumbo Hoops, they risky. They have so many pros, but you can cap out on your vertical recovery deceptively soon. I've SD'd more times than I've killed with it and officially swore it off my custom Trainer because its utility is wonderful, but in a 2 stock metagame it is just not worth my stock.

Real sadness.

 

[Ffamran]

Holy crap I just asked when we will get a tier list.

Do we even have a back room set up yet for SSB4? If not, then make that Eventually+1. We have tier lists from other sources some of which are... sketchy to say the least. As for an official one, yeah. Nobody knows. If I had to put a date, I'd say early 2016 or even early 2017.

 

[moofpi]

Melee is still 8 minutes right?




"Evo"
"we won't have the time for an extra minute to be added to the matches of 1000 players" - Wizard
"people play too passively in Smash 4, with 5 minutes you're forced to approach or go in quickly, leading to MORE EXCITEMENT AND STUFF, YEAH" - Melee community

These rule sets are ruining Smash 4's biggest debuts. It's pretty irritating.

I gave a huge spiel in the Evo Ruleset about 6 > 5 minute rules and the guy who ran the tournaments actually came in and said he would consider a 6 minute timer like Apex. So idk.

 

[Djent]

It occurred to me that the conjunction of Customs + 5 minutes could be really bad for public impressions. We already have reason to believe that 5 minute games will actually be campier than 6 minute ones. If some customs do encourage defensive play, then there will be a strong interaction between the new moves and the timer. Which is bad, but people who have it out for customs will blame the whole effect on them.

 

[mimgrim]

Better yet just get rid of of tier titles, top/mid/bottom or S/A/B/C/D or w/e other title you can think of. Instead just have one full list from top to bottom with characters of even capabilities in the same line with bigger gaps between the lines representing the different in viability.

Example;





















Example of bigger gaps between lines;






































It just gets rid of arbitrary titles that people have many different definitions of in what they mean of viability and can be misleading in general.

 

[thehard]

These rule sets are ruining Smash 4's biggest debuts. It's pretty irritating.

I gave a huge spiel in the Evo Ruleset about 6 > 5 minute rules and the guy who ran the tournaments actually came in and said he would consider a 6 minute timer like Apex. So idk.

About an hour ago I tweeted CEOJebailey and he said he was "most likely" changing CEO's ruleset to 6 min.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Customs force timeouts. Some customs make camping/avoiding combat a necessity. They're so bad for competitive play.

But Joe..... What you just described was sonic's default specials.

 

[thehard]

But Joe..... What you just described was sonic's default specials.

PogChamp

But seriously, with such a BOLD CLAIM I'm dying to hear his explanation. It'll definitely incite some interesting discussion. Joe's got that Xanadu experience that we can't deny.

 

[Sucumbio]

lotsa china...

wait, so does that mean that bowser/bowser jr are top tier and lightly above everyone else, or is bowser just as viable against bowser jr as he is against cap falcon? o.O;

 

[Lavani]

wait, so does that mean that bowser/bowser jr are top tier and lightly above everyone else, or is bowser just as viable against bowser jr as he is against cap falcon? o.O;

I'd assume the latter, given how many lines there are.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

wait, so does that mean that bowser/bowser jr are top tier and lightly above everyone else, or is bowser just as viable against bowser jr as he is against cap falcon? o.O;

What the hell are you doing here?

Go back to the debate hall where you belong. That red is unsightly on you.

Smooth Criminal

 

[mimgrim]

wait, so does that mean that bowser/bowser jr are top tier and lightly above everyone else, or is bowser just as viable against bowser jr as he is against cap falcon? o.O;

In the first example provided it just shows the list without an gaps or anything between the listed character which would imply a tightness between all the characters in terms of viability.

The latter shows off the gap between lines I was talking about which means Bowser/BJ are slightly above the C characters who are slightly above the D character who are a bit above the F characters who are slightly above the G character who are slightly above the I characters. Repeat till you get to the L characters who are a good bit above the M characters. Skip to the S characters who are a good step above the T characters. Skip to Y character who are far better then the Z characters.

But both ways can be considered as true.

I'd assume the latter, given how many lines there are.

There are a lot of lines in the example because of alphabetical mumbo jumbo. Realistically there would be less lines.

 

[moofpi]

About an hour ago I tweeted CEOJebailey and he said he was "most likely" changing CEO's ruleset to 6 min.

Ah crap, that was a CEO discussion where Jebailey said he was considering a 6 minute timer.

In that case Evo may still have a 5 minute timer. I'm going to be so bummed if this happens.

Because you know some vocal parts of the Smash community are going to bash customs or the game itself for this For Glory rule set if things play out defensively, which they would in a serious tournament environment with a 5 minute timer.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If I had to put a date, I'd say early 2016 or even early 2017.

Waaaaaaaaaay too long. I'd say at the end of 2015 to be quite honest.

Mewtwo DLC/Patch would be around the best time to think about a backroom, and discussing match-ups for a chart tierlists etc. usually is a process that takes 4+ months. So yeah, end of 2015.

If not, we're more lazy than we were years back and just let social media keep ruling us for now while donating to streams.

 

[Timbers]

Waaaaaaaaaay too long. I'd say at the end of 2015 to be quite honest.

Mewtwo DLC/Patch would be around the best time to think about a backroom, and discussing match-ups for a chart tierlists etc. usually is a process that takes 4+ months. So yeah, end of 2015.

This.

Also being currently in the middle of (probably) shifting the meta into a customs environment. There are clear divides in regions over whether customs should be legal or not, stock counts, ideal timers, etc. and I'm certainly not expecting several official lists to be dropped on us in the near future to cater to each instance. Customs especially, as there's still TOs that are turned off of the idea solely due to logistics (whatever they may be). I think a lot of the anxiety and confusion will be mellowed once EVO gives us a large scale representation of many of these newly proposed elements.

Also there being 50+ characters is a pain in the ass to order numerically.

~6 months after EVO sounds about right. I think once EVO does happen, we'll get a rather solid impression on what customs will do for competitive Smash, and that ~6 months after will give us time to start focusing on the true viability of characters. It's not going to take ~2 years. It's only been several months and we already have a very solid idea of where characters fall in a customs off environment.

It's a total shot in the dark though. Smash has a huge roster.

 

[TriTails]

I think 4BR could go for 'No customs' tier list first, since like Timbers said, there are already very solid ideas where this character and that character should be put in. I think that can at least keep people occupied discussing about it until the 'Custom' tier list come. This can also at least decrease the questions about "WHEREZ ZA TIERZ LISTZ!?". Because to be frank, discussing tier lists is always a fun thing to do.

Although, I'm in no position to decide things. So I'll just let 4BR handle 'em.

But then again, 4BR has not been created yet. I'll wait for it, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Seagull Joe]

But Joe..... What you just described was sonic's default specials.

LOL bodied me tho 's default play style invokes camping and timeouts.

He did, but I think he was joking or something. Still, TKBreezy said that he plays MSF... really? I just noticed that... Well, I guess I know what a Big Boss Mii should be. Anyway, TKBreezy said he plays MSF because nobody does and that he'd play MSF for some reason, especially with customs since they're fun which also makes TKBreezy become silly during matches because customs are wacky. I think that's what he said, but I don't remember and I don't remember when. It might have been before the finals between Seagull and Bengal.

Edit: TL;DR: We'll see on Tuesday's Xanadu.

Do you expect TK to make to look good?

 

[Smog Frog]

l e g a l i z e n o t i m e r

but on the topic of time outs, if we're looking to reduce them(or even potentially eliminate them!) why dont we just use no timer? it literally makes timeouts unusable, and generally promotes aggressive gameplay.

unless im missing something lol

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Maybe have an invisible timer. Have someone offscreen take the time using their phone so that neither competitor knows when the time will end. Then an alarm signals the end of the match, and the player behind just suicide KOs. 64 has no timer right? They get on just fine without one.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Do you expect TK to make :miisword: to look good?

No thats your job.


On timers:
I'm not having timer beef right now, but then again we're also not streaming so there is no audience throwing ZZZ's in a chat. So long as everyone gets home on time, I'm not warring about a timer anymore. I like Smash but I have a bus to catch back to my place, but since the commute hasn't been a problem yet...

 

[HeroMystic]

l e g a l i z e n o t i m e r

but on the topic of time outs, if we're looking to reduce them(or even potentially eliminate them!) why dont we just use no timer? it literally makes timeouts unusable, and generally promotes aggressive gameplay.

unless im missing something lol

This all depends on if one feels that time-outs shouldn't be a viable strategy. A five minute timer is stupid, but I personally see timeouts to be fine as long as it isn't polarizing (which it is with the five minute timer).

 

[Hippieslayer]

Zee has a penchant for failing to consistently keep the tripping sapling out, placing it badly, he be dropping games because of it.

 

[Yikarur]

What regions disallow Fullpower Mii's in a custom:off environment? I think it damages the game disallowing Mii's at fullpower because they add a lot of varity to the game.

In germany we used a "Bring your own Mii" Rule that allowed Mii in any fashion, you just had to transfer it. I try to expand that so every Set-up has to include 9 Mii's in all sizes/width so everyone can create every possible Mii.
Mii's should not be banned or restricted. They are an full-legit character with a special gimmick.

 

[Ffamran]

Do you expect TK to make :miisword: to look good?

No, I just expect TKBreezy to use Mii Swordfighter for that one round.

 

[Unknownkid]

Do you expect TK to make :miisword: to look good?

Well, Trela did. TKBreezy did make WFT and Custom Doctor Mario look impressive. I guess we just have to wait and see.