Character Competitive Impressions

[Teshie U]

Why isn't lil mac considered a threat in customs? He seems to benefit a lot from just having a real recovery.

Good teching and countering kind of solve the problems his customs help with.

windboxes will still trivialize his recovery

 

[HeavyLobster]

Doesn't Little Mac still suffer from his usual problems of edgeguarding, poor air game, and poor aerial mobility with customs? I don't know his customs and which are good, bad, etc., but does he gain something, fix something, or has something that drastically makes him better in one area? Palutena has Lightweight and Superspeed, Ike has Tempest and Close Combat, and Rosalina has Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp.

Guard Breaker lets him armor through edgeguards for a very small distance nerf and bypasses shields. Dash Counter helps against projectiles and aggressive edgeguards. His recovery is still bad, but those crippling low % deaths are easier to avoid now. I don't see Mac as drastically better with customs, but he does get a few nice options.

 

[meleebrawler]

Guard Breaker lets him armor through edgeguards for a very small distance nerf and bypasses shields. Dash Counter helps against projectiles and aggressive edgeguards. His recovery is still bad, but those crippling low % deaths are easier to avoid now. I don't see Mac as drastically better with customs, but he does get a few nice options.

Firespin Lunge is probably the best neutral special of the lot 1v1 for having more armour and faster charge time giving a slight niche in recovery and overall usability. Grounding Blow can also mess with edgeguards by counterspiking overzealous ones, as well as acting as an aerial juke of sorts... it kinda reminds me of DK's Jumping Headbutt.

Anyone see any use for Shocking Straight Lunge in doubles? And is Compact Counter more rewarding
on average than standard?

 

[ramskick]

toughest Fox MU is definitely not Mac. The consensus leans more towards Luigi and Yoshi being his hardest. There's definitely no killer disadvantages for Fox across the roster, and Luigi/Yoshi likely share that spot with a few other characters in the 40:60 range. Probably Diddy. Probably Falcon. Probably ZSS.

Oh okay that makes sense. What about the Luigi matchup is hard? I haven't really struggled with it like I have all the other characters you mentioned (Diddy and Yoshi in particular.)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I feel like the problem with Mac really isn't his recovery. Sure, I still get gimped every now and then, but not very often. This is without customs, by the way (also, does anyone know that counter completely ignores windboxes? It's pretty cool). No, the problem really is having to work for every hit. Poor landing traps, no aerial followups... If you get damage with Mac, chances are you're fighting one of the three or four characters you can actually edgeguard, or you got a clean hit. That's a problem. Oh, and he has no decent landing options either.

 

[Pazx]

So I've been messing around with Samus and I just wish you could act out of down special a bit faster. She can keep her awful rolls, just make screw attack kill and down special not be an incredible commitment with no reward.

More Samus related complaints: Why doesn't dsmash do anything? Why is her grab so bad? Why is jab so bad? WHY

i'm actually curious: whats the most lopsided matchup in the game? i've heard things like pac vs mac and jiggly vs mac

Metaknight vs Mac is rough.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

i'm actually curious: whats the most lopsided matchup in the game? i've heard things like pac vs mac and jiggly vs mac

Scrubs be like: Diddy Kong vs Every other character in the game

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait, who's Jiggs-Mac bad for again?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

In the mega man MU its almost crucial that you have at least half a charge shot just to make them hesitate the offensive pressure. So it all depends on how u decide to start the match really.

Yeah, I understand that the matchup dips between extremes depending on the CS which is what makes it such a dynamic MU. In general though at earlier percentages MM has the tools to make sure Samus' doesn't charge and Samus can't do much about it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Im not directly questioning u but is it not harder to land trap with gravity grenade since it explodes immediately?

If anything that makes it easier. Watch where they are going and just let it rip. No thinking involved.

 

[Timbers]

Oh okay that makes sense. What about the Luigi matchup is hard? I haven't really struggled with it like I have all the other characters you mentioned (Diddy and Yoshi in particular.)

nair and amazing grab combos make Fox salty. Fox has low damage per hit, and can't reliably followup on any advantage without risking a meaty 12%(?) combobreaker and potential kill option.

Luigi's only real drawback is he has issues getting in on characters, but Fox lacks no threatening projectile, no disjoints. No moves that can favorably trade with anything that Luigi throws out.

and his grab game is probably his scariest feat. at midrange he can force actions with fireballs, and Fox is not that safe on block (less apparent in this MU with Luigi's traction)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So I've been messing around with Samus and I just wish you could act out of down special a bit faster. She can keep her awful rolls, just make screw attack kill and down special not be an incredible commitment with no reward.

More Samus related complaints: Why doesn't dsmash do anything? Why is her grab so bad? Why is jab so bad? WHY



Metaknight vs Mac is rough.

messing around and activly playing with the character are two different things half of these are not problems.

 

[Emblem Lord]

nair and amazing grab combos make Fox salty. Fox has low damage per hit, and can't reliably followup on any advantage without risking a meaty 12%(?) combobreaker and potential kill option.

Luigi's only real drawback is he has issues getting in on characters, but Fox lacks no threatening projectile, no disjoints. No moves that can favorably trade with anything that Luigi throws out.

and his grab game is probably his scariest feat. at midrange he can force actions with fireballs, and Fox is not that safe on block (less apparent in this MU with Luigi's traction)

Replace that will basically never except perfect spaced bair.

 

[Nabbitnator]

So I've been messing around with Samus and I just wish you could act out of down special a bit faster. She can keep her awful rolls, just make screw attack kill and down special not be an incredible commitment with no reward.

More Samus related complaints: Why doesn't dsmash do anything? Why is her grab so bad? Why is jab so bad? WHY



Metaknight vs Mac is rough.

I think she was probably nerfed before release. Was it zss or samus who got nerfed though.
On another note I haven't seen much talk about link. Usually I see him near the bottom. Has he become weak?

 

[andimidna]

How to remedy the Ganondorf vs Rosalina MU into a 50:50 for both (no Customs):

-While Rosalina has the Luma Shot ready, be ready to read it with an up smash or a side smash, and if you read it well, you could get a little charge off of it and knock the Luma into a combo hit with F-Air or U-Air. Down smash will not work as its lead-up frontal attack will not knock Luma back to the second hit, and N-air would end up leading into a Rosalina punish out fo the three usable aerials. B-Air and D-Air are not recommended as it would take B-Air too long to get there, and D-Air will almost never hit. Repeat this process if Luma comes back and Rosalina uses Luma Shot.

-If Rosalina is close to you, and so is Luma, use U-Smash to get Luma away, and then hit the Luma. You might even combo Rosalina along the way.

-Once Rosalina's without a Luma, make sure to take the advantage and go at her with attacks and punishes ready. If she uses the dash attack, make sure to shield or perfect shield it into a proper F-Tilt or U-Smash punish. If Rosalina comes in at you, use the U-Smash mind game, in which you use one U-Smash, then either a U-Smash, F-Smash or D-Smash. This will trick any opponent into running into the second smash attack if they don't have the best reflexes.

-Having trouble with Rosalina's aerials knocking you upward? You can simply destroy her with a well-timed D-Spec; one of two things will happen. One, your D-Spec will meteor her. If she's off the stage edge and if she's unlucky, she'll land below the stage, and it will make it virtually impossible for her to recover due to the angle and direction she's pointing at and distance of her recovery, and the fact that you can punish the recovery as well. The next thing that may happen is that D-Spec will not meteor, but send her upward into a KO. She does have the size of Ganondorf and a very light weight, so KO'ing her from the top would be easy, and no DI can help her out.

-What if Rosalina air dodges the D-Spec? Well, you will either land on the ground or end the D-Spec beforehand, leading up to multiple punishes or even aerial attacks on Rosalina.

-What if Rosalina has Luma in the air? Well, a good F-Air or D-Spec should do the trick, horizontally or vertically.

-Now since Rosalina has a slow, predictable recovery with great distance, you would need to read the recovery to see whether or not you should punish on stage, or meteor. If she goes lower than the stage, meteor before she grabs the edge. If you're around her, punish with a meteor or F-Air depending on angle. If she comes a bit near or above the edge, use D-Tilt.

-If you really want to get good reads in, make sure that if she's far away and hasn't used the recovery, use the U-Tilt, as it will provide a good KO method and edge-guarding method. If she goes well above your head, either run to her and U-Smash or if she's just next to you, use F-Smash or Warlock Punch (before she lands).

-What if she wants to gimp your recovery from below? Bait her out and use a stage spike on her. She will always be pointed opposite of the stage and will be unlikely to recover.

-What if from the side? F-Air, always use F-Air, or if you're pointed backward, B-Air. Even if you can't recover, it will benefit by damaging her. But if you and her are near, use Flame Choke, especially on last stock.

-In this, these are just tools to help Ganondorf get into a better MU with Rosalina, but the best thing to always use with Ganondorf against Rosalina is U-Smash, as it will universally give Ganondorf a helping hand in this MU. It will lead into mind games, combos and more, and it will destroy Rosalina's Luma quickly.

Now onto Sheik things:



That or just Stage Spiking the opponent. The Gravity Grenade can stage spike.



Well, with any character, her best kill moves are pretty hard to land upon, examples being Jiggs and Dedede. There are even some characters who will outright punish her for trying to land a kill move on them, the biggest examples being Diddy, Fox and Link with their high-damaging attacks and punishing combos.

I've never understood why people think this MU is even, I've seen people say it's because he kills Luma so easily. But it's just so easy to run away from ganon and jump around him lol. It's not hard to make him get nothing off a luma kill and wait for the new luma.
Also idk if you said this cause I only read the first half but luma completely shuts down side b
And star bits shuts down like all of his approach options.
I really just don't see what he can do in the MU
Edit: decided to read more. Doesn't seem right. Rosa has a superior recovery, better mobility, and a disjointed dair- so how are you going to bait and punish that with ganon lol
Try to wait for something off stage and your dead. Lumas dair is deceptively strong and despite what some think, Rosas can spike
Also wtf you're claiming it's a good idea to use warlock punch and up tilt? Once again, good mobility, and luma can attack when she's in free fall. How are those moves even viable
And saying she probably won't recover with her back to the stage sounds like low level for glory knowledge. The input is stupid and can be hard in lag but otherwise no not really

Also yes pls tell all the ganondorfs to dspecial her up air, thx

 

[Timbers]

Replace that will basically never except perfect spaced bair.

It's true lol, but Luigi's traction does give Fox a bit of room for error. Fox has the "potential" to get trashcanned by anyone with threatening grab combos/OoS options.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I've never understood why people think this MU is even, I've seen people say it's because he kills Luma so easily. But it's just so easy to run away from ganon and jump around him lol. It's not hard to make him get nothing off a luma kill and wait for the new luma.
Also idk if you said this cause I only read the first half but luma completely shuts down side b
And star bits shuts down like all of his approach options.
I really just don't see what he can do in the MU
Edit: decided to read more. Doesn't seem right. Rosa has a superior recovery, better mobility, and a disjointed dair- so how are you going to bait and punish that with ganon lol
Try to wait for something off stage and your dead. Lumas dair is deceptively strong and despite what some think, Rosas can spike
Also wtf you're claiming it's a good idea to use warlock punch and up tilt? Once again, good mobility, and luma can attack when she's in free fall. How are those moves even viable
And saying she probably won't recover with her back to the stage sounds like low level for glory knowledge. The input is stupid and can be hard in lag but otherwise no not really

Also yes pls tell all the ganondorfs to dspecial her up air, thx

Larry tends to say some, strange things. Its best to look at many things he says with a grain of salt.

Ganon loses to rosa just by not much. Rosa has to repect ganon more that he has to respect luma.

 

[andimidna]

Larry tends to say some, strange things. Its best to look at many things he says with a grain of salt.

Ganon loses to rosa just by not much. Rosa has to repect ganon more that he has to respect luma.

Yea true I'll admit I've gotten impatient off stage and been ganoncided before.
I wanna see what a match of dabuz vs whoever is considered to be the best ganon would look like
-who is btw? I haven't seen any videos of a ganon in tournament since the 3ds

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yea true I'll admit I've gotten impatient off stage and been ganoncided before.
I wanna see what a match of dabuz vs whoever is considered to be the best ganon would look like
-who is btw? I haven't seen any videos of a ganon in tournament since the 3ds

Kalm is the best if we're talking English-speaking Ganons, though he regards Japanese Ganons such as Gungnir and Pon as ahead of him. Both the Ganon and Rosa boards agree the matchup without customs is horrible for Ganon, either 35:65 or 30:70 against him, though customs make things much much better. Rosa probably still wins because Shooting Star Bit is annoying even with Dropkick on, but the matchup is totally playable and probably only a slight disadvantage for Ganon.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yea true I'll admit I've gotten impatient off stage and been ganoncided before.
I wanna see what a match of dabuz vs whoever is considered to be the best ganon would look like
-who is btw? I haven't seen any videos of a ganon in tournament since the 3ds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog
This video may not be tournament play but is a prime example of what pro ganon's do.

This video is of Pon one of the bet ganon's in japan along with gungnir.

theres also ray Kalm as well who posts often enough in this thread.

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

I'm going to repeat something I said a long while back in this thread, which is that if a character has a universal 4:6 matchup spread, that is actually really good. Yes, they always have a slight disadvantage going in, but it's also small enough of a gap that the slightest disparity in skill can make up for it.

Brawl Samus, Link and Zelda had the same thing going on, but they were still relegated to the bottom tier.

I literally stood for a second all like "WTF is he talking about?" Cheeky Man

I'd put them there as well.
My argument for Swordfighter is that they thrive off creating traps off their aerials but their deacceleration is so bad you need to make sure you don't fling yourself away from your own traps.
Their neutral is super wonky with their laggy normals meaning that they have to rely on SoL, which is a wonky projectile, Reversal Slash, which is not always useful, and Power Thrust, which is an aberration.
There's also the fact that their disadvantage is like Ike's where it's godawful until you can hit them with D-air.
Man, if you get over that though, you get a monster who hits WAY harder than what I originally gave them credit for when I first mained them.

But is it really worth the take if Ike himself outmatches Swordfighter in terms of maximum power output?

I'm currently not so sure if I want to remain using Swordfighter. I mean, I love using Mii, but my playstyle tends to go offensive yet being able to counter. Initially, Ike leaned towards the former whereas my Mii Swordfighter leans somewhere in-between, dishing damage while at the same time having a average speedy counter going on.
But the past few days, what I've gathered from all of this, is that the best way to play Swordfighter is having a maximum speed output and creating traps -- and I don't know if that fits my playstyle.

 

[popsofctown]

Brawl Zelda has numerous matchups at 20-80 or worse. Olimar can rack her up to 200% damage just using a flowchart. Ganon vs. Falco is disgusting.
Samus, I dunno. Maybe fits your model.

 

[Quickhero]

@ CrimsonSmasher I legit just had to look at Brawl Meta Knight's match-up chart to prove that that is completely false lol.

I would love for there to be a character that goes 40-60 in every match-up in this game, just to experiment how far the character would go. I think the character would go to high mid just for the basic virtue that you basically just have a slight disadvantage but it's easily made up by skill and if you get really good with said character you don't have to worry about anything lol.

 

[CrimsonSmasher]

Brawl Zelda has numerous matchups at 20-80 or worse. Olimar can rack her up to 200% damage just using a flowchart. Ganon vs. Falco is disgusting.
Samus, I dunno. Maybe fits your model.

@ CrimsonSmasher I legit just had to look at Brawl Meta Knight's match-up chart to prove that that is completely false lol.

In all fairness, I somewhat misinterpreted it since I used the "On Average" stats in regards to their match-ups.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox vs Luigi is pretty even imo.

I'd rank Yoshi as Fox' hardest matchup.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I would've been so happy if Brawl Zelda had 4:6 matchups across the board. Iirc the only matchups that were 4:6, even or advantaged were against the other bottom tiers, and some still beat her hard. 80-20, 70-30, and 60-40 against her was all too common.

 

[popsofctown]

In all fairness, I somewhat misinterpreted it since I used the "On Average" stats in regards to their match-ups.

The original poster's thesis was that more or less a character is only as bad as their very worst matchup, so the average wouldn't be what you want to look at to disprove that thesis.
Also, those averages would be 35-65 at best..

 

[Sinister Slush]

Japan must be purposely hiding some secret Messiah Yoshi main over there to think he's above the likes of Sonic ZSS Rosalina Pika etc. along with posting nothing but losing matches of Yoshi out of like 15+ sets uploaded on 3 or so different Japanese channels.

That's my only guess at this point honestly...

I'd rank Yoshi as Fox' hardest matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IkC2wCZd4U
I'm bad and he's the 7 year old prodigy, but either way out of the almost 20+ times I've played him from both Brawl and Smash 4 combined, this is the closest I've gotten to beating him.
Greedy for kills and SD aside, I do kinda see Jab and Nair beating out fox most of the time. But saying it's his worst MU to put as a -2 or -3 seems a bit much compared to other characters. Feels more like a 50:50 if both even skilled.

Until I guess some more Yoshi mains pop up in a state or region with a fox main (raptor vs nakat maybe?), the most out of Yoshi vs Fox you'll see is me vs megafox and it'll always be one sided.

 

[deepseadiva]

Japan's new tier list, its first one for the Wii U:

https://game8.jp/items/297696

S: Diddy Kong
A+: Sheik; Yoshi; Sonic; Rosalina & Luma
A: Wario; Villager; Zero Suit Samus
A-: Fox
B+: Ness; Captain Falcon; Mario
B: Pikachu; Luigi; R.O.B.; Mega Man
B-: Pac-Man; Pit; Duck Hunt
C++: Dark Pit; Lucario; Greninja
C+: King Dedede; Toon Link; Olimar; Meta Knight
C: Peach; Bowser
C-: Bowser Jr.; Little Mac
D+: Shulk; Mii Brawler; Palutena
D: Mr. Game & Watch; Link; Dr. Mario
D-: Mii Gunner; Jigglypuff
E+: Robin; Falco; Donkey Kong; Kirby
E: Wii Fit Trainer; Ike; Ganondorf; Samus
E-: Zelda; Charizard; Marth
E--: Lucina; Mii Swordfighter

Obviously this list is for the default game, not with customs.

Yoshi in 3rd place, huh? And even more interesting to see Wario and Villager up at the top! Deserved, I think. Looking at the list, I would cut solo viability after the B- tier. C through D need secondaries. E and down are kind of niche characters with better versions of them in the cast, but you can use them if you want to be cute.

The Automatic Defaults game is... really irrelevant though. The Miis get particularly shafted by the technicality of the rules. Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter do not deserve their wimpy positions (not to mention Palutena, Wii Fit, and DK, among others). So, considering them N/A to this tier list... does that really make Marth/Lucina the worst characters in the game? Is atrocious really a good word to describe them?

 

[Smog Frog]

yoshi's 3rd ranking might be explained because japan has yoshidora

and honestly everything below c+ is there because of lack of exploration.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK don't need no secondaries. Looking at B tier Pac-Man needs a secondary cause Rosalina decks him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dunno how Yoshidora is enough to make them think Yoshi is top 3 when almost every single video uploaded on their very own channel has him losing against everyone he plays.
Of course Japan doesn't post their results here so unless he just runs through Loser's bracket all the way to GF and wins it all somehow? Then dunno.

 

[Shaya]

Japan still has like 500 yoshis for every Diddy player, that's probably why.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Maybe it's just I'm still putting Japan on a pedestal as if they're some gods or something while we're all trash.
Forgot this isn't a MOBA so I shouldn't have that mindset and realize NA EU Canada etc. > Japan in terms of Smash.

So for now we (yoshi players) just need to somehow bash into peoples heads that he is not top 5 but top 15 at worst.

 

[Timbers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IkC2wCZd4U
I'm bad and he's the 7 year old prodigy, but either way out of the almost 20+ times I've played him from both Brawl and Smash 4 combined, this is the closest I've gotten to beating him.
Greedy for kills and SD aside, I do kinda see Jab and Nair beating out fox most of the time. But saying it's his worst MU to put as a -2 or -3 seems a bit much compared to other characters. Feels more like a 50:50 if both even skilled.

Until I guess some more Yoshi mains pop up in a state or region with a fox main (raptor vs nakat maybe?), the most out of Yoshi vs Fox you'll see is me vs megafox and it'll always be one sided.

for what it's worth, I didn't think these were all that one sided at all. I'm not sure what the actual skill gap is between yourself and Megafox, but had you kept your patience and held your stocks a little longer, I think you could have pulled out a set win. 5 of your 6 stocks were sorta handed to him on a silver platter, and so I wonder what the outcome would have been if that were not the case. I'm interested to see your sets in the future.

 

[Ffamran]

If anything that makes it easier. Watch where they are going and just let it rip. No thinking involved.

Thanks for reminding me about Beyblade. Oh, the memories of watching an anime about tops with mystical spirits hitting each other and spinning way longer than is possible.

I don't know much about Burst Grenade except that it can edgeguard. As for Gravity Grenade, can it edgeguard too? Like maybe stage spiking or gimping people under the stage?

Japan still has like 500 yoshis for every Diddy player, that's probably why.

Hopefully, Yoshi moves west for the summer. Yoshi stampede!

Anyway, is Yoshi just not popular outside of Japan? I don't know any notable Yoshis outside of Japan and even then, I don't know any Yoshis except for Yoshidora who I see his name here and there sometimes. Even then, I haven't seen a good Yoshi. I've seen Yoshis, but not a beast of a Yoshi, like Godzilla-type stuff.

 

[Antonykun]

Japan still has like 500 yoshis for every Diddy player, that's probably why.

Wow I wonder what makes him so popular there (as opposed to here) ?

 

[deepseadiva]

I'd like to see a breakout American Yoshi, MK, and Peach. "Potential potential potential" is all I hear.

I think we're starting to see a breakthrough with Peach. Excel Zero is showing how dangerous the character can be:

Excel_Zero doing his thing. Pick your poison.

 

[NairWizard]

Captain Falcon probably has top 5 neutral games in the game. He's just so good in the neutral. So many powerful options. Because he falls fast, he can spam empty hops and you won't see the dashgrab or walk -> jab coming. Both his gentleman jab and rapid jab are great, collectively one of the best jabs in the game. Comes out so fast that you can hold A to stuff certain approaches. He also has the longest perfect pivot distance in the game. At midrange he can dash attack, dash grab, perfect pivot d-tilt or jab, empty hop dash in, SH n-air, SH falling up-air on shield -> jab, RAR b-air out of dash, Raptor Boost or Falcon Kick... a slew of fast options. On top of all of that he has such good ground speed that he can't be projectile-camped.

If only Falcon's disadvantage weren't so atrocious. To balance out his great neutral (and good advantaged state), the developers gave him one of the most linear recoveries, a fastfall speed and heavy weight which gets him combo'd to obscene percents, and a n-air that is thoroughly mediocre for escaping vertical juggles.

Falcon in neutral is a hero.

Falcon in disadvantage is truly lamentable.

 

[Sinister Slush]

for what it's worth, I didn't think these were all that one sided at all. I'm not sure what the actual skill gap is between yourself and Megafox, but had you kept your patience and held your stocks a little longer, I think you could have pulled out a set win. 5 of your 6 stocks were sorta handed to him on a silver platter, and so I wonder what the outcome would have been if that were not the case. I'm interested to see your sets in the future.

Well again, it was the closest I got to winning.
Only played him 2 or 3 times so far, but hopefully next time I can win for once.

I did notice how we both have similarish playstyles in being really aggressive along with a habit or two from him so I'll try to punish that next time.