Character Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

Kind of hard to really see Ganon as mid tier when he loses to Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, Zero Suit, and Pika 60:40 or worse, at least with customs off. With customs on it seems about right, as he has the tools to hold his own against his bad MUs better and doesn't really have any unwinnables. His default MU spread might be comparable to that of a Brawl mid tier, but middle of the road Smash 4 characters usually go even or near even(45:55) against at least some of the characters I mentioned.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Kind of hard to really see Ganon as mid tier when he loses to Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, Zero Suit, and Pika 60:40 or worse, at least with customs off. With customs on it seems about right, as he has the tools to hold his own against his bad MUs better and doesn't really have any unwinnables. His default MU spread might be comparable to that of a Brawl mid tier, but middle of the road Smash 4 characters usually go even or near even(45:55) against at least some of the characters I mentioned.

hah se he may lose to pika shiek diddy and the gang but what makes him mid tier is that if any of these character mess up ganon can out right win. We all seen the pika/ganon match.

 

[Ffamran]

Kind of hard to really see Ganon as mid tier when he loses to Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, Zero Suit, and Pika 60:40 or worse, at least with customs off. With customs on it seems about right, as he has the tools to hold his own against his bad MUs better and doesn't really have any unwinnables. His default MU spread might be comparable to that of a Brawl mid tier, but middle of the road Smash 4 characters usually go even or near even(45:55) against at least some of the characters I mentioned.

What about his other matchups? A character could lose to all the top tier characters, but could dominate all the other characters which would put them at high tier. Technically, top tiers are the ones dominating everyone (collectively), so everyone else would be (collectively) low tier. That's generalizing everything since tiers get more and more divided alongside ordering.

 

[Nobie]

I'm going to repeat something I said a long while back in this thread, which is that if a character has a universal 4:6 matchup spread, that is actually really good. Yes, they always have a slight disadvantage going in, but it's also small enough of a gap that the slightest disparity in skill can make up for it.

 

[Teshie U]

Customs don't greatly help Ganon's matchups with the very best characters. He gets a little more respect, but his main problem is short grab range and a slow moveset, hurting him alot when he isnt in neutral.

 

[Saturn_]

Zero said he liked Ganondorf's 2322 loadout FWIW. He really likes Wizard's Dropkick.

EDIT: Here's the link. Zero's youtube account is suuuper underrated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZK427NQppw

 

[HeavyLobster]

What about his other matchups? A character could lose to all the top tier characters, but could dominate all the other characters which would put them at high tier. Technically, top tiers are the ones dominating everyone (collectively), so everyone else would be (collectively) low tier. That's generalizing everything since tiers get more and more divided alongside ordering.

Ganon doesn't dominate the rest of the cast. I don't think much outside of Villager is actually too bad for him outside of that, but all of those are very evenish. He doesn't have a lot of matchups in his favor, and those that are are only slightly. He holds up reasonably well against most of the tier list, but loses decisively to the best of the best.

I'm going to repeat something I said a long while back in this thread, which is that if a character has a universal 4:6 matchup spread, that is actually really good. Yes, they always have a slight disadvantage going in, but it's also small enough of a gap that the slightest disparity in skill can make up for it.

It's not bad at all, but in Smash 4 that MU spread would clearly put you in bottom tier since most everyone else has a better one

Zero said he liked Ganondorf's 2322 loadout FWIW. He really likes Wizard's Dropkick.

I like that set too. It's not optimal against everyone, but it definitely has its place in certain MUs.

Customs don't greatly help Ganon's matchups with the very best characters. He gets a little more respect, but his main problem is short grab range and a slow moveset, hurting him alot when he isnt in neutral.

It makes the Rosa MU not unwinnable, which by itself is very big. Sheik has to respect Dark Fists when edgeguarding, which helps Ganon a lot as far as his gameplan of not dying and getting rage-boosted kills is concerned. Haven't really been able to compare how he does vs. Zero Suit and Villager with and without customs, but those 4 are the ones he really needs help with, as the rest are at least playable already.

 

[Teshie U]

@ HeavyLobster if you are referring to super armoring edgeguards, its not a huge deal for characters that don't have to get close to Ganondorf to gimp him.

I wasn't talking about Rosalina anyway. Sheik, Diddy, Sonic are the ones that I feel don't care so much about it.

But, I'll concede you can never count out a guy with super armor. He can hard read anything thats not 100% guaranteed and make it out with his life (and maybe yours too).


edit: does anyone know the earliest frame dark fist hits/has super armor on?

 

[Ffamran]

Ganon doesn't dominate the rest of the cast. I don't think much outside of Villager is actually too bad for him outside of that, but all of those are very evenish. He doesn't have a lot of matchups in his favor, and those that are are only slightly. He holds up reasonably well against most of the tier list, but loses decisively to the best of the best.

I didn't mention Ganondorf as someone who dominates the rest of the cast. I said, "a character" not Ganondorf. I said that someone could lose to all the top tiers, but that doesn't make them below mid tier or low tier. We could have one character who is advantaged to all the top tiers, but is disadvantaged to everyone else. Technically, that character could be the bottom character, despite faring well against top tiers.

 

[Saturn_]

If there isn't a definitive "Appearances of Super Armor" list somewhere, we REALLY need to get on that.

 

[HeavyLobster]

@ HeavyLobster edit: does anyone know the earliest frame dark fist hits/has super armor on?

Frame 5, I believe. It comes out faster than any of his attacks. The armor, that is. Hitbox is frame 16.

 

[Ffamran]

Frame 5, I believe. It comes out faster than any of his attacks.

A frame faster than his and Captain Falcon's Uair. This is why it's a monster OOS option, right?

 

[Teshie U]

Still kind of slow OoS. Super armor won't help vs spaced attacks and a 5 frame gap probably wont save you if you are tanking a multi hit move.

I see it having some good use vs jabs.

First hit can also straight up stagespike while beating other people's recoveries.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Against people who try to jab after hitting your shield to stuff shieldgrab attempts or something like that Dark Fists can be very useful. It's situational and risky but devastating when used offensively. For a recovery it can be very nice when light characters just decide not to challenge you offstage for fear of getting splattered at 60-70%.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm going to repeat something I said a long while back in this thread, which is that if a character has a universal 4:6 matchup spread, that is actually really good. Yes, they always have a slight disadvantage going in, but it's also small enough of a gap that the slightest disparity in skill can make up for it.

Universal 4-6 is pretty bad. You don't have one winning MU means you're a crappy character and probably the worst character in the game.

I don't understand the custom ganon hype. I don't see anything that makes him much better or a character.

 

[Pazx]

Universal 4-6 means you only lose 4-6 to Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, Pikachu, MK, Sonic...

I'd say a universal 4-6 character could POTENTIALLY have a better matchup spread than a character who beats 1 or 2 bad characters but gets shut down by one or more top tiers. Fortunately the closest example I can think of is Little Mac who probably has the most extreme matchup ratios of any character yet still doesn't fit the bill.

 

[Yikarur]

Ganons jumping downB is a really good move snd the super armor upB is not only a good offensivr move if the flow of the game allows it but it also makes edge guarding Ganon a pain.
Custom Ganon is still a bad character overall because his main traits don't disappear suddenly but he isn't super terrible like w/o customs.

 

[Saturn_]

Universal 4-6 means you only lose 4-6 to Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, Pikachu, MK, Sonic...

I'd say a universal 4-6 character could POTENTIALLY have a better matchup spread than a character who beats 1 or 2 bad characters but gets shut down by one or more top tiers. Fortunately the closest example I can think of is Little Mac who probably has the most extreme matchup ratios of any character yet still doesn't fit the bill.

While I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying, a character with universal 4-6 could, be definition, never be higher than mid tier...because the character only goes 4-6 with the top tier. See what I'm saying? I'd rather be 6 than 4, and that's the meta. If you eliminate character loyalty from the equation (noooo!) you would never play the universal 4-6 character.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ganons jumping downB is a really good move snd the super armor upB is not only a good offensivr move if the flow of the game allows it but it also makes edge guarding Ganon a pain.
Custom Ganon is still a bad character overall because his main traits don't disappear suddenly but he isn't super terrible like w/o customs.

lol almost nobody here actually thinks normal/custom ganon is bad have you not read the last few pages?

 

[Twizman]

My Japanese friend translated Rain's tier list for me! interesting to see the Captain so high.

S+: sheek, Didy
S-: sonic
A+: yosshi, falcon, fox, nes, zerosam
A-: Luigi, village person, wario, robotto, mario
B+: rosetta, rockman, peach, bitto, olimar, pikachu
B- : packman, duckhunt, Lukario, kuppa, bulabi, tu...?, dedede, meta, mac
C+: shuruku, gekkoga, kuppa Jr, parutena, trainer, ke..?
C-: purin or pudding, marusu, donkey, aiku, karbi, dokumari
C: link, zeruda, ganon, falco, lizzerdon, samsu, luf..?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

My Japanese friend translated Rain's tier list for me! interesting to see the Captain so high.

S+: sheek, Didy
S-: sonic
A+: yosshi, falcon, fox, nes, zerosam
A-: Luigi, village person, wario, robotto, mario
B+: rosetta, rockman, peach, bitto, olimar, pikachu
B- : packman, duckhunt, Lukario, kuppa, bulabi, tu...?, dedede, meta, mac
C+: shuruku, gekkoga, kuppa Jr, parutena, trainer, ke..?
C-: purin or pudding, marusu, donkey, aiku, karbi, dokumari
C: link, zeruda, ganon, falco, lizzerdon, samsu, luf..?

i don't know what to say about some of this spelling. And im like the king of typos, Im honestly not sure if this is comically racist, or your friend does not know how to translate. Like we seen all the japanses names in text we can pronounce already.

on topic garbage tier list cuz s tier bull. nobody is that good.

 

[extrasensory]

on topic garbage tier list cuz s tier bull. nobody is that good.

it's pretty clear right now that diddy is a cut above all other characters except possibly sheik both in terms of popular opinion and tournament results. i wouldn't complain about either of those two being included in a current S tier after having seen so much systematic destruction of great players using good characters by people using diddy kong and honestly not doing anything out of the ordinary. people in this topic have theorized about possible diddy checks but as of yet none of them have been put into play in any significant way or have simply disappointed. right now i wouldn't say he has anything keeping him from being placed into a tier of his own, possibly along with sheik as mentioned as she has had fairly strong tournament results and is the other character that people generally consider to be the best in the game. i do agree that S+ and S- is stupid though, just stick with S.

on a somewhat related topic, i don't think i've ever really seen sheik vs luigi played out at a high level; what's that matchup like? i'd imagine it's in sheik's favour but that's just based on theory and opinion. are there any good videos demonstrating this matchup?

 

[webbedspace]

Even middle-of-the-line players can get surprisingly far by just rote memorisation of dash-into-hoo-ha, banana-into-hoo-ha, dtilt-into-hoo-ha, short-hop-ha, falling-ha, and random f-smashes that seemingly go unpunished almost as much as Sonic's. Substitute "hoo-ha" with "hoo-hee" (d-throw into f-air) if the opponent has good DI, or the rare "hee-ha" (u-throw into u-air) to mix them up at high percentages. If more of these players took aboard ZeRo's signature wall-of-pain f-airs or made M2K's signature down-airs actually work reliably, who knows how many more +'s Diddy's S would get.

 

[FullMoon]

The Japanese seem to be underestimating Greninja still, granted, Greninja isn't seen all that often but I can't see him being lower than Mac, Dedede, Bowser and Toon Link.

 

[extrasensory]

Substitute "hoo-ha" with "hoo-hee" (d-throw into f-air) if the opponent has good DI, or the rare "hee-ha" (u-throw into u-air) to mix them up at high percentages.

these are getting more and more ridiculous as the metagame progresses. can't wait to see where we go from here; could a hoo-hey possibly be on the cards????

 

[Nobie]

Universal 4-6 is pretty bad. You don't have one winning MU means you're a crappy character and probably the worst character in the game.

I don't understand the custom ganon hype. I don't see anything that makes him much better or a character.

If we look at previous Smash games, it wasn't 4:6 matchups that truly held characters back, it was the fact that a lot of their matchups were devastatingly skewed against their favor. Things like Bowser vs. Sheik in Melee, or characters who get mercilessly chain grabbed in Brawl.

The whole idea of using terms like 4:6 is that it's supposed to mean "slight to minor disadvantage," not "holy crap I can't win a single matchup." Otherwise there's no point to explaining things by using ratios. 4:6 means you have more than a fighting chance, because what's implied with the concept of saying someone has a 4:6 ratio is that for every 10 games against an equally skilled opponent they will win 4 of them. That's usable, that's manageable, and though obviously you'd rather be 6:4 than 4:6, you'd also rather be 4:6 than 3:7.

 

[Blobface]

What hurts Ganon the most competitively is some of his utterly insane match ups against several top tier characters (Rosa, Villager, Zss, and Shiek). Villager and Rosa are probably the worst of the 4 since they kill Ganon so much better than Zss or Shiek, but they all have Ganon's biggest weakness: safety. Ganon doesn't really mind projectiles, his recovery's not that bad, and, despite his low mobility, his attacks are a lot faster than people think. But characters that can just keep him out with no effort are the reason Ganon is evil. All four of these characters have some sort of attack/projectile/jank that Ganon has to put in an incredible amount of effort to get around. I'd honestly put Ganon more towards high tier if t weren't for these four matchups.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People still think Sheik is top2 in this game?

 

[Antonykun]

People still think Sheik is top2 in this game?

It depends on what the characters are being rated on.
Sheik can easily be Top 1 but diddy is just slightly worse (very slightly) but has more rewards for noticeably less effort.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik is a noticeably weaker character than Diddy Kong though.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy is clearly the best character in this game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

as it stands really deserves the #1 spot unless starts winning all tournaments from now on.

In terms of potential however, I'd rate higher than .

 

[Antonykun]

My Japanese friend translated Rain's tier list for me! interesting to see the Captain so high.

S+: sheek, Didy
S-: sonic
A+: yosshi, falcon, fox, nes, zerosam
A-: Luigi, village person, wario, robotto, mario
B+: rosetta, rockman, peach, bitto, olimar, pikachu
B- : packman, duckhunt, Lukario, kuppa, bulabi, tu...?, dedede, meta, mac
C+: shuruku, gekkoga, kuppa Jr, parutena, trainer, ke..?
C-: purin or pudding, marusu, donkey, aiku, karbi, dokumari
C: link, zeruda, ganon, falco, lizzerdon, samsu, luf..?

so murabito literally mean village person? that's some how really cute

 

[HeavyLobster]

The theorycraft behind Sheik being better has a lot to do with the fact that she has the ability to control the pace of the match vs. him. She outcamps him and is overall safer. She does have to work harder to get kills, but the theorycraft goes that once Sheiks have figured out how to get kills reliably she'll be better than Diddy due to her superior neutral state.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Shockwave is live guys, if anyone is interested some customs action.

Man, Denti's Ike was... kinda not very good.

Didn't use any customs (WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE ANY AT A CUSTOM TOURNAMENT WHEN USING FREAKING IKE), didn't land any combos.... universal stuff like spacing and mindgames were good and that's why he won the match I saw with Ike but man, if that kinda explains why people don't think so highly of Ike if that's all they ever see at these sorts of streams...

The Lucario with Slow Aura was pretty interesting to watch though. Commentators were flipping out about it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Man, Denti's Ike was... kinda not very good.

Didn't use any customs (WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE ANY AT A CUSTOM TOURNAMENT WHEN USING FREAKING IKE), didn't land any combos.... universal stuff like spacing and mindgames were good and that's why he won the match I saw with Ike but man, if that kinda explains why people don't think so highly of Ike if that's all they ever see at these sorts of streams...

The Lucario with Slow Aura was pretty interesting to watch though. Commentators were flipping out about it.

Ike feels very different compared to Brawl. A lot of people downgrade him because they play him like Brawl Ike and don't do all that great. I haven't quite figured him out myself but I can see that his tools are better in important areas.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik is a noticeably weaker character than Diddy Kong though.

weaker? Maybe. Noticebly. lol

stop

 

[Tristan_win]

My Japanese friend translated Rain's tier list for me! interesting to see the Captain so high.

S+: sheek, Didy
S-: sonic
A+: yosshi, falcon, fox, nes, zerosam
A-: Luigi, village person, wario, robotto, mario
B+: rosetta, rockman, peach, bitto, olimar, pikachu
B- : packman, duckhunt, Lukario, kuppa, bulabi, tu...?, dedede, meta, mac
C+: shuruku, gekkoga, kuppa Jr, parutena, trainer, ke..?
C-: purin or pudding, marusu, donkey, aiku, karbi, dokumari
C: link, zeruda, ganon, falco, lizzerdon, samsu, luf..?

This is just a small thing but I would like to point out how this list doesn't have a 'F' tier or even 'D'. I feel when a tier list does come out a similar letter scale should be used to help demonstrate how much better smash4 is at balancing then Melee/Brawl. Like remove the +/- so it's just S,A,B,C tiers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, Sheik is noticeably weaker a character than Diddy Kong. Diddy Kong is undisputed #1, Sheik might not be top 2. There's a gap between these two characters where Sheik has to compte with the likes of Sonic for a #2 spot. Diddy doesn't have to deal with any of that.

 

[Smog Frog]

the only thing that sheik has weaker than diddy is damage per hit