Character Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

the only thing that sheik has weaker than diddy is damage per hit

And ability to reliably KO, which is a pretty big deal.

 

[Smog Frog]

And ability to reliably KO, which is a pretty big deal.

sheik has kill setups, even if they come kind of late

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

And ability to reliably KO, which is a pretty big deal.

I'd like to bring up that with customs, Gravity Grenade allows her to reliably get a tipper usmash off. However, without customs I understand where you're coming from. Though even without KO power, she has an amazing gimping game.

 

[FullMoon]

Isn't Gravity Grenade just as laggy and easy to see coming as the default ones anyway?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Isn't Gravity Grenade just as laggy and easy to see coming as the default ones anyway?

Yep. But it still improves her options nonetheless, so you might as well use it if customs are on

 

[Smog Frog]

gravity grenade is as telegraphed as the normal nade, except the reward is much better

 

[HeavyLobster]

Gravity is best to use for ledge/landing traps and other situations where your opponent's options for avoiding it are limited. You don't just throw it out in neutral.

 

[ramskick]

And ability to reliably KO, which is a pretty big deal.

I feel Shiek can get KO's easier than people give her credit for, particularly with customs on. That being said it is her most glaring weakness when her best kill moves are telegraphed and pretty hard to land against most top-tier characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

How to remedy the Ganondorf vs Rosalina MU into a 50:50 for both (no Customs):

-While Rosalina has the Luma Shot ready, be ready to read it with an up smash or a side smash, and if you read it well, you could get a little charge off of it and knock the Luma into a combo hit with F-Air or U-Air. Down smash will not work as its lead-up frontal attack will not knock Luma back to the second hit, and N-air would end up leading into a Rosalina punish out fo the three usable aerials. B-Air and D-Air are not recommended as it would take B-Air too long to get there, and D-Air will almost never hit. Repeat this process if Luma comes back and Rosalina uses Luma Shot.

-If Rosalina is close to you, and so is Luma, use U-Smash to get Luma away, and then hit the Luma. You might even combo Rosalina along the way.

-Once Rosalina's without a Luma, make sure to take the advantage and go at her with attacks and punishes ready. If she uses the dash attack, make sure to shield or perfect shield it into a proper F-Tilt or U-Smash punish. If Rosalina comes in at you, use the U-Smash mind game, in which you use one U-Smash, then either a U-Smash, F-Smash or D-Smash. This will trick any opponent into running into the second smash attack if they don't have the best reflexes.

-Having trouble with Rosalina's aerials knocking you upward? You can simply destroy her with a well-timed D-Spec; one of two things will happen. One, your D-Spec will meteor her. If she's off the stage edge and if she's unlucky, she'll land below the stage, and it will make it virtually impossible for her to recover due to the angle and direction she's pointing at and distance of her recovery, and the fact that you can punish the recovery as well. The next thing that may happen is that D-Spec will not meteor, but send her upward into a KO. She does have the size of Ganondorf and a very light weight, so KO'ing her from the top would be easy, and no DI can help her out.

-What if Rosalina air dodges the D-Spec? Well, you will either land on the ground or end the D-Spec beforehand, leading up to multiple punishes or even aerial attacks on Rosalina.

-What if Rosalina has Luma in the air? Well, a good F-Air or D-Spec should do the trick, horizontally or vertically.

-Now since Rosalina has a slow, predictable recovery with great distance, you would need to read the recovery to see whether or not you should punish on stage, or meteor. If she goes lower than the stage, meteor before she grabs the edge. If you're around her, punish with a meteor or F-Air depending on angle. If she comes a bit near or above the edge, use D-Tilt.

-If you really want to get good reads in, make sure that if she's far away and hasn't used the recovery, use the U-Tilt, as it will provide a good KO method and edge-guarding method. If she goes well above your head, either run to her and U-Smash or if she's just next to you, use F-Smash or Warlock Punch (before she lands).

-What if she wants to gimp your recovery from below? Bait her out and use a stage spike on her. She will always be pointed opposite of the stage and will be unlikely to recover.

-What if from the side? F-Air, always use F-Air, or if you're pointed backward, B-Air. Even if you can't recover, it will benefit by damaging her. But if you and her are near, use Flame Choke, especially on last stock.

-In this, these are just tools to help Ganondorf get into a better MU with Rosalina, but the best thing to always use with Ganondorf against Rosalina is U-Smash, as it will universally give Ganondorf a helping hand in this MU. It will lead into mind games, combos and more, and it will destroy Rosalina's Luma quickly.

Now onto Sheik things:

Gravity is best to use for ledge/landing traps and other situations where your opponent's options for avoiding it are limited. You don't just throw it out in neutral.

That or just Stage Spiking the opponent. The Gravity Grenade can stage spike.

I feel Shiek can get KO's easier than people give her credit for, particularly with customs on. That being said it is her most glaring weakness when her best kill moves are telegraphed and pretty hard to land against most top-tier characters.

Well, with any character, her best kill moves are pretty hard to land upon, examples being Jiggs and Dedede. There are even some characters who will outright punish her for trying to land a kill move on them, the biggest examples being Diddy, Fox and Link with their high-damaging attacks and punishing combos.

 

[HeavyLobster]

How to remedy the Ganondorf vs Rosalina MU into a 50:50 for both (no Customs):

-While Rosalina has the Luma Shot ready, be ready to read it with an up smash or a side smash, and if you read it well, you could get a little charge off of it and knock the Luma into a combo hit with F-Air or U-Air. Down smash will not work as its lead-up frontal attack will not knock Luma back to the second hit, and N-air would end up leading into a Rosalina punish out fo the three usable aerials. B-Air and D-Air are not recommended as it would take B-Air too long to get there, and D-Air will almost never hit. Repeat this process if Luma comes back and Rosalina uses Luma Shot.

Good Rosa players won't use Luma Shot in situations where you can do that, as Luma Shot leaves Luma vulnerable. It really isn't going to be used outside of ledge/landing traps, if that.

-If Rosalina is close to you, and so is Luma, use U-Smash to get Luma away, and then hit the Luma. You might even combo Rosalina along the way.

This isn't too bad as long as the 21 frame startup isn't interrupted by a Jab or something. There might be some situations where this will work, but it's not reliable by any means.

-Once Rosalina's without a Luma, make sure to take the advantage and go at her with attacks and punishes ready. If she uses the dash attack, make sure to shield or perfect shield it into a proper F-Tilt or U-Smash punish. If Rosalina comes in at you, use the U-Smash mind game, in which you use one U-Smash, then either a U-Smash, F-Smash or D-Smash. This will trick any opponent into running into the second smash attack if they don't have the best reflexes.

Punishing Rosa without Luma is wonderful, but not easy to pull off. Rosa isn't likely to be aggressive and use Dash Attack without Luma present, and anyone remotely familiar with Ganondorf is aware of the short cooldown on USmash and won't fall for Usmash ->Usmash/Fsmash. Maybe Usmash -> Ftilt/Dtilt, but Rosa shouldn't be rushing in anyway against Ganon.

-Having trouble with Rosalina's aerials knocking you upward? You can simply destroy her with a well-timed D-Spec; one of two things will happen. One, your D-Spec will meteor her. If she's off the stage edge and if she's unlucky, she'll land below the stage, and it will make it virtually impossible for her to recover due to the angle and direction she's pointing at and distance of her recovery, and the fact that you can punish the recovery as well. The next thing that may happen is that D-Spec will not meteor, but send her upward into a KO. She does have the size of Ganondorf and a very light weight, so KO'ing her from the top would be easy, and no DI can help her out.

Rosa's Uair Is disjointed and lingering. This is a fight you can't win.

-Now since Rosalina has a slow, predictable recovery with great distance, you would need to read the recovery to see whether or not you should punish on stage, or meteor. If she goes lower than the stage, meteor before she grabs the edge. If you're around her, punish with a meteor or F-Air depending on angle. If she comes a bit near or above the edge, use D-Tilt.

-If you really want to get good reads in, make sure that if she's far away and hasn't used the recovery, use the U-Tilt, as it will provide a good KO method and edge-guarding method. If she goes well above your head, either run to her and U-Smash or if she's just next to you, use F-Smash or Warlock Punch (before she lands).

Fair and Dair have their uses against Rosa, but Uair will usually be your go-to for edgeguarding.

-In this, these are just tools to help Ganondorf get into a better MU with Rosalina, but the best thing to always use with Ganondorf against Rosalina is U-Smash, as it will universally give Ganondorf a helping hand in this MU. It will lead into mind games, combos and more, and it will destroy Rosalina's Luma quickly.

I think you need to play better Rosas if you think your tips actually make this matchup winnable for Ganon. Only customs can do that. I love Dark Fists kills on Rosa.

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm actually curious: whats the most lopsided matchup in the game? i've heard things like pac vs mac and jiggly vs mac

 

[Kofu]

vs.

The king just gets walled out hard. WAY too hard.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

i'm actually curious: whats the most lopsided matchup in the game? i've heard things like pac vs mac and jiggly vs mac

I woke up this morning wondering the same thing and decided to ask about that very thing.

Is Megaman V. Dedede the worst matchup in the game? I can see the neutral on the ground being dominated by Megaman but Dedede still has the option of playing footsies aerially. Definitely not easy by a longshot since you have to bait commitment out of Megaman pretty hard in order to do anything but Dedede has multiple jumps.

 

[warriorman222]

Does anyone know the worst MUs per character? Could said people tell me which, and why?

 

[Luco]

I feel like some of the heavy/safer rushdown characters versus some of the lacklustre characters would still be some of the more hideous MUs. You know, something like MK vs Zelda. No, Sheik vs. Zelda.

Oh that's cruel in such an ironic way

Ness' worst MU is probably Rosa or Sonic. Proooobably Sonic, though Rosa wouldn't be too far off.

 

[Antonykun]

Does anyone know the worst MUs per character? Could said people tell me which, and why?

I can tell you Villager's: Sheik

 

[Iron Kraken]

Japan's new tier list, its first one for the Wii U:

https://game8.jp/items/297696

S: Diddy Kong
A+: Sheik; Yoshi; Sonic; Rosalina & Luma
A: Wario; Villager; Zero Suit Samus
A-: Fox
B+: Ness; Captain Falcon; Mario
B: Pikachu; Luigi; R.O.B.; Mega Man
B-: Pac-Man; Pit; Duck Hunt
C++: Dark Pit; Lucario; Greninja
C+: King Dedede; Toon Link; Olimar; Meta Knight
C: Peach; Bowser
C-: Bowser Jr.; Little Mac
D+: Shulk; Mii Brawler; Palutena
D: Mr. Game & Watch; Link; Dr. Mario
D-: Mii Gunner; Jigglypuff
E+: Robin; Falco; Donkey Kong; Kirby
E: Wii Fit Trainer; Ike; Ganondorf; Samus
E-: Zelda; Charizard; Marth
E--: Lucina; Mii Swordfighter

Obviously this list is for the default game, not with customs.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

In the Samus boards, a common sentiment is that Megaman is Samus' worse MU and it really is a nightmare if you don't know how to handle it.

 

[Luco]

Woah.... Well played, ... well played. =P

 

[JayTheUnseen]

is a blast to play and I didn't even know it till recently.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Japan's new tier list, its first one for the Wii U:

https://game8.jp/items/297696

They need to teach me what kind of King DeDeDe secrets they are hiding.

Either that or they accidentally swapped places with him and DK.

 

[popsofctown]

It's also worth noting that Japan generally has a much more uptight stagelist than America.

There's really not much surprising in the list. King D3 might seem a tad high in the middle but the middle of any tier list is always the most flexible part.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If we look at previous Smash games, it wasn't 4:6 matchups that truly held characters back, it was the fact that a lot of their matchups were devastatingly skewed against their favor. Things like Bowser vs. Sheik in Melee, or characters who get mercilessly chain grabbed in Brawl.

The whole idea of using terms like 4:6 is that it's supposed to mean "slight to minor disadvantage," not "holy crap I can't win a single matchup." Otherwise there's no point to explaining things by using ratios. 4:6 means you have more than a fighting chance, because what's implied with the concept of saying someone has a 4:6 ratio is that for every 10 games against an equally skilled opponent they will win 4 of them. That's usable, that's manageable, and though obviously you'd rather be 6:4 than 4:6, you'd also rather be 4:6 than 3:7.

If your character has a 4-6 MU across the board he has no winning MUs. A mark of a good character isn't a losing matchup across thr cast. No matter how you attempt to rationalize things. Basically you're playing a character who has a disadvantage vs the cast. No one which he goes even with.........

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I feel like some of the heavy/safer rushdown characters versus some of the lacklustre characters would still be some of the more hideous MUs. You know, something like MK vs Zelda. No, Sheik vs. Zelda.

Oh that's cruel in such an ironic way

Ness' worst MU is probably Rosa or Sonic. Proooobably Sonic, though Rosa wouldn't be too far off.

Sheik actually isn't Zelda's worst matchup. Diddy probably is. Though Sheik can pressure...herself (lol) ridiculously hard, she also has trouble killing as previously mentioned. If Zelda can get around 150%, all of that rage will let her kill Sheik at 25-40% with an elevator (FW disappear to FW reappear.) She can also do a JC FW OOS when Sheik fairs her shield, so it actually isn't that hard to pull off.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Why the actual hell is Bowser Jr. mid tier? I would say that makes sense in theory but I've actually never even seen him in a pro match before. Japan needs to show us their moves

 

[Iron Kraken]

Why the actual hell is Bowser Jr. mid tier? I would say that makes sense in theory but I've actually never even seen him in a pro match before. Japan needs to show us their moves

Search for some videos of Tweek's Bowser Jr.

 

[Nu~]

Pac's worst matchup is rosa or sonic. They make a mockery out of his traps

Ohohoh...but customs make it so much easier...
Edit: and why the hell is combo bait R.O.B. In B tier?

 

[FullMoon]

Recently I haven't been finding the Sheik MU to be that bad, currently I think Fox is the hardest one for Greninja to deal with.

And I guess now Hyrule tier is Fire Emblem tier in Japan.

 

[Ffamran]

Does anyone know the worst MUs per character? Could said people tell me which, and why?

Falco has it tough with Rosalina, Jigglypuff, Palutena, so anyone who can juggle him fast and hard. I think Pally with customs would wreck Falco harder than you can rig a building with C4 and blow it up. I guess ZSS counts well.

Characters with range and who are mildy fast like Shulk and DK also gives Falco issues since Falco just gets walled out. Against Ike, it's less of a problem since Ike's range isn't as insane as Shulk's and Ike stays consistent unlike Shulk.

I think Falco does fine against Diddy, but I'm not sure since I don't play Diddy a lot and most of the times, the Diddys are cookie cutters. Same with Sonic since Sonic can rack up damage fast, but Falco will have more damage and knockback per hit.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Japan's new tier list, its first one for the Wii U:

https://game8.jp/items/297696

S: Diddy Kong
A+: Sheik; Yoshi; Sonic; Rosalina & Luma
A: Wario; Villager; Zero Suit Samus
A-: Fox
B+: Ness; Captain Falcon; Mario
B: Pikachu; Luigi; R.O.B.; Mega Man
B-: Pac-Man; Pit; Duck Hunt
C++: Dark Pit; Lucario; Greninja
C+: King Dedede; Toon Link; Olimar; Meta Knight
C: Peach; Bowser
C-: Bowser Jr.; Little Mac
D+: Shulk; Mii Brawler; Palutena
D: Mr. Game & Watch; Link; Dr. Mario
D-: Mii Gunner; Jigglypuff
E+: Robin; Falco; Donkey Kong; Kirby
E: Wii Fit Trainer; Ike; Ganondorf; Samus
E-: Zelda; Charizard; Marth
E--: Lucina; Mii Swordfighter

Obviously this list is for the default game, not with customs.

I noticed most of the characters under meta C+ and part of C+ are not seen much. With a select few but I cant see peach being that low.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

In the Samus boards, a common sentiment is that Megaman is Samus' worse MU and it really is a nightmare if you don't know how to handle it.

In the mega man MU its almost crucial that you have at least half a charge shot just to make them hesitate the offensive pressure. So it all depends on how u decide to start the match really.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Isn't Gravity Grenade just as laggy and easy to see coming as the default ones anyway?

So using nades in land trap situations isn't a thing or am I just too far advanced here?

 

[ramskick]

Does anyone know the worst MUs per character? Could said people tell me which, and why?

Fox in general struggles with any character who is faster than him or can keep up with his speed. Last time I checked the consensus over on the Fox forums was that Little Mac was his toughest matchup, though my least favorite is Sonic.

 

[Meru.]

I noticed most of the characters under meta C+ and part of C+ are not seen much. With a select few but I cant see peach being that low.

I haven't been to A LOT of tournies in Japan but I have been to some and I have also played the Japanese ladder quite a bit. I find what you're saying is quite correct. Most characters above C tier are played quite a lot in Japan and the lower you go down the list, the less the characters are used. (Almost nobody plays Peach btw. Like everywhere in the world )

 

[FullMoon]

So using nades in land trap situations isn't a thing or am I just too far advanced here?

I rarely ever see Sheik use grenades (and most times I do I think it's because they pressed the wrong input) so excuse me if I assumed they didn't have much use.

 

[Timbers]

Fox in general struggles with any character who is faster than him or can keep up with his speed. Last time I checked the consensus over on the Fox forums was that Little Mac was his toughest matchup, though my least favorite is Sonic.

toughest Fox MU is definitely not Mac. The consensus leans more towards Luigi and Yoshi being his hardest. There's definitely no killer disadvantages for Fox across the roster, and Luigi/Yoshi likely share that spot with a few other characters in the 40:60 range. Probably Diddy. Probably Falcon. Probably ZSS.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So using nades in land trap situations isn't a thing or am I just too far advanced here?

Im not directly questioning u but is it not harder to land trap with gravity grenade since it explodes immediately?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why isn't lil mac considered a threat in customs? He seems to benefit a lot from just having a real recovery.

 

[Ffamran]

Why isn't lil mac considered a threat in customs? He seems to benefit a lot from just having a real recovery.

Doesn't Little Mac still suffer from his usual problems of edgeguarding, poor air game, and poor aerial mobility with customs? I don't know his customs and which are good, bad, etc., but does he gain something, fix something, or has something that drastically makes him better in one area? Palutena has Lightweight and Superspeed, Ike has Tempest and Close Combat, and Rosalina has Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp.

 

[Firefoxx]

As far as I know, having a real recovery means losing his best OoS option. That's a tough thing for Mac to give up.