Character Competitive Impressions

[popsofctown]

There might just be general correlations between Japanese culture, games, influences, and genetics, that make a Yoshi preference more likely. Japan produced an AMSA, NA did not produce an AMSA, it's not necessarily a new trend with this particular game. Or even with Smash in general.

 

[deepseadiva]

"Genetically I prefer Yoshi. Like my father in Brawl. And my father's father in Melee. And my great grandfather in Smash 64."

 

[Sinister Slush]

Genetics in my smash games.

 

[popsofctown]

I listed those in descending order of importance..

 

[Antonykun]

You know if @san. said Swordfighter is Pichu to Ike's Pikachu I'll believe him

 

[Dre89]

So everyone knows now that Sheik is better than Diddy, but I wonder if anyone else will surpass Diddy. I'm talking about months down the track where every1 DIs hoo ha properly and gimps him whenever he's forced offstage. I could see stuff like Pika or Sonic overtaking him if they get Esam-esque rep.

 

[Quickhero]

So everyone knows now that Sheik is better than Diddy, but I wonder if anyone else will surpass Diddy. I'm talking about months down the track where every1 DIs hoo ha properly and gimps him whenever he's forced offstage. I could see stuff like Pika or Sonic overtaking him if they get Esam-esque rep.

Actually, 99% of players agree that Diddy Kong is the best but Sheik is easily #2.

DIng Hoo-hah doesn't matter when he has so many other aerial options to go for and when he has ridiculous approach and grab-combos. Sheik really wishes for more kill options which is why Sheik is #2.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I can't get behind a high opinion of customless DhD.

 

[deepseadiva]

So everyone knows now that Sheik is better than Diddy.

 

[NAKAT]

Me and NAKAT talked about this very briefly when the game first dropped.

He swore Fox was hella nasty and I'm like..dude...HOW DOES HE ATTACK AND NOT GET MAULED?!

wtf at both of these posts LOL. Results have proven otherwise clearly.

But does any Fox have good results with solo fox, proving his viability?

Zero and NAKAT both use top tier grabbers when the stakes are high.

@ Sinister Slush go away

Primarily goes Ness/Fox. Used diddy in the past 4 times total. top tier grabber...hmmmmmmm.....

 

[Shaya]

Falcon's jab beats just about every option you could possibly think of but a roll in, it beats these a lot too because his jab hits like... behind him. Disgusting.

So everyone knows now that Sheik is better than Diddy, but I wonder if anyone else will surpass Diddy. I'm talking about months down the track where every1 DIs hoo ha properly and gimps him whenever he's forced offstage. I could see stuff like Pika or Sonic overtaking him if they get Esam-esque rep.

You are so wrong Dre... Please don't turn this into the league thread 2.0...

 

[Nu~]

MK don't need no secondaries. Looking at B tier Pac-Man needs a secondary cause Rosalina decks him.

My secondary is called 1123.

He's a Luma destroyer and a rosa aggresor

 

[Sinister Slush]

You are so wrong Dre... Please don't turn this into the league thread 2.0...

Man you said it before me, urg

 

[Antonykun]

I am convinced Villager's n-air is Top 5 in n-airs it's speed versatility and usefulness in trap makes me salivate.

Man you said it before me, urg

I'm pretty sure Shaya is a ninja with how effectively he posts the thing you wanted to post before you do.

 

[ramskick]

So everyone knows now that Sheik is better than Diddy, but I wonder if anyone else will surpass Diddy. I'm talking about months down the track where every1 DIs hoo ha properly and gimps him whenever he's forced offstage. I could see stuff like Pika or Sonic overtaking him if they get Esam-esque rep.

I don't know anybody who says that Sheik is better than Diddy. Better than everybody besides Diddy? Sure but not better than him. I see Sheik and Diddy as the clear top two characters in the game with Yoshi, Sonic, Rosaluma and maybe ZSS in the next tier.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So everyone knows now that Sheik is better than Diddy, but I wonder if anyone else will surpass Diddy. I'm talking about months down the track where every1 DIs hoo ha properly and gimps him whenever he's forced offstage. I could see stuff like Pika or Sonic overtaking him if they get Esam-esque rep.

I firmly dissagree on the topic of shiek being better than diddy until i see it. I wana see a shiek win a regional for once.

 

[Timbers]

makes me salivate.

gross.

also true. it has the benefit of being fast and covering most (all?) of his body with a very low cooldown. it helps that his fair/bair are nice followups to this as well. scary scary.

 

[Antonykun]

gross.

also true. it has the benefit of being fast and covering most (all?) of his body with a very low cooldown. it helps that his fair/bair are nice followups to this as well. scary scary.

Not to mention it also does great for offstage because of the angle and just how deep she can for those kills/gimps

 

[Shaya]

There's a growing theme that persists (especially back here in Aus in some places) that Sheik is destined to be better.
I think Sheik is design wise a lot more "perfect" a character, but nothing's going to change Diddy's bonkers Risk/Reward. Sheik definitely doesn't have this. It's like comparing Ice Climbers to ... Falco (from Brawl). Heck that match up exemplifies it a lot too. Any hard-core Falco main will tell you that Falco can play against ICs in a way that will result in his victory if he doesn't **** up; the devastating part of the match up isn't the death grab, but more so the solo chain grab lasting well until 60-70% (allowing any 'split' hit to work against Falco in a way that let's nana catch up); a Falco against ICs past solo chain grab percent actually has not much to fear (but ICs will just never let that happen, they know Falco out camps ICs in neutral and has to keep moving, so ICs just stand there hoping for SDI grabs or dash grab reads).

Everything starts to devolve when a character can rely on singular actions, heck, not even winning in neutral, to actually still win games. Diddy at most levels can suffice with just waiting for a dash grab and all the efforts players are making to combat this only goes to push Diddy's to use their other moves (which are still top tier). That pressure Diddy exerts though doesn't change between levels of play at all though. Only a small select list of characters seem to have any chance against disrespectful Diddy (or can disrespect diddy themselves).

 

[David Viran]

I think if they were to nerf Diddy they only really need to tone down his uair. They shouldn't kill it but like make it kill a little later nerf the hitbox slightly and add a few more frames of end lag and it will be fine. As it is it is such a overpowering kill move that kills super early and frame traps air dodges super hard with a million ways to set it up.

 

[ramskick]

Not to mention it also does great for offstage because of the angle and just how deep she can for those kills/gimps

Villager's offstage game is just scary. He's got the nair that you mentioned plus a good uair and a fair and bair that are good for spacing. Combined with his awesome recovery and he's almost better offstage than he is onstage. I think we'll be seeing more of him placing high in the months to come.

 

[Antonykun]

I actually do wonder how much EBT will worsen Villager's off stage game if at all.

Villager's offstage game is just scary. He's got the nair that you mentioned plus a good uair and a fair and bair that are good for spacing. Combined with his awesome recovery and he's almost better offstage than he is onstage. I think we'll be seeing more of him placing high in the months to come.

Spoiler: Villager when you are off stage

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I actually do wonder how much EBT will worsen Villager's off stage game if at all.

Spoiler: Villager when you are off stage

Spoiler: Villager when you are off stage

Sorry man metaknight eats villager offstage.

 

[Nu~]

I actually do wonder how much EBT will worsen Villager's off stage game if at all.

Spoiler: Villager when you are off stage

Spoiler: Villager when you are off stage

Until a stray strawberry bounces on both balloons...
Or a tandem z dropped meteor key...
Or just an out of the blue meteor trampoline right before you touch the ledge

That would be totally crazy

 

[Antonykun]

Sorry man metaknight eats villager offstage.

Until a stray strawberry bounces on both balloons...
Or a tandem z dropped meteor key...
Or just an out of the blue meteor trampoline right before you touch the ledge

That would be totally crazy

Bruh stop trying to deny the Queen (and King if you play the dudes) of the Edgeguard. I mean it's so good Villager can actually pretend to edgeuard MK (Shuttle Loop is vertical tho so maybe a well timed Timber?)

 

[thehard]

Fighting a Villager as Ganon on FG recently was the most traumatic experience of my life

 

[Antonykun]

Fighting a Villager as Ganon on FG recently was the most traumatic experience of my life

Well you just made me reflexively do an evil laugh.
Fun fact about Swordfighter: at 0% D-tilt into B-air true combos Bowser

 

[warionumbah2]

Bruh stop trying to deny the Queen (and King if you play the dudes) of the Edgeguard. I mean it's so good Villager can actually pretend to edgeuard MK (Shuttle Loop is vertical tho so maybe a well timed Timber?)

why would the Mk user recover low when the tree is up? That's one brave(dumb) Mk.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bruh stop trying to deny the Queen (and King if you play the dudes) of the Edgeguard. I mean it's so good Villager can actually pretend to edgeuard MK (Shuttle Loop is vertical tho so maybe a well timed Timber?)

with 5 jumps and all specials being able to recover good luck,

 

[Antonykun]

why would the Mk user recover low when the tree is up? That's one brave(dumb) Mk.

with 5 jumps and all specials being able to recover good luck,

That's why I said pretend seriously I doubt even MK can edgeguard MK

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That's why I said pretend seriously I doubt even MK can edgeguard MK

Only custom samus can :D relentless missles are too much fun.

*edit* this entire post is just unserious theory carft

 

[Shaya]

I think if they were to nerf Diddy they only really need to tone down his uair. They shouldn't kill it but like make it kill a little later nerf the hitbox slightly and add a few more frames of end lag and it will be fine. As it is it is such a overpowering kill move that kills super early and frame traps air dodges super hard with a million ways to set it up.

Is it so bad that Diddy should have to like, read air dodges or something?
I think if the start up was doubled, it would still be a ridiculous move, but suddenly in line with the rest of the top up airs.

That's why I said pretend seriously I doubt even MK can edgeguard MK

G&W edge guards MK...
generally G&W edge guards everyone.
Especially Villager, it's actually particularly nasty.

G&W is the character who actually almost never wants to ever grab the ledge when he up-b's below it, you can cancel/land almost immediately into shield (pretty sure invincibility remaining until the almost last moment) while actually grabbing the ledge can take away your invincibility or frame trap yourself. Up-B through ledge -> backwards facing up smash = da bess

Either way, you aren't beating parachute off stage... except if you're WiiFit ... one time, but I don't know how.

Apart of me feels as if G&W planking is likely quite viable and on top of that he may be better off stage than almost everyone thanks to Parachute. I've made this Sheik/MK claim before, but I've never bothered arguing G&W as such for no reason I can actually remember, beat's me to be honest... I would say it has to do with me not thinking aggressively so much for him off stage as much as he just negated everyone off stage by up-bing through things (and the amount of kills/etc I get from them as accidents). But G&W can go really deep, freely **** people with back air and just parachute or up air all 'bursts' (recovery moves/etc) reactively.

 

[Forty4]

I know I'm late on this, but could someone explain why Yoshi dominates Fox? I always seem to have trouble fighting any Fox I play.

 

[Antonykun]

Oh since we're still on the subject of edguarding and Villager, Villager's recovery being good is a misconception. While Villagers are rarely gimped if ever, using BT is like flying with a hit me sign covering your face.

 

[Akhenderson]

So, I'm not much of a smash 4 player, but can someone explain to me how Marth is considered a "low mid to low" tier character?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh since we're still on the subject of edguarding and Villager, Villager's recovery being good is a misconception. While Villagers are rarely gimped if ever, using BT is like flying with a hit me sign covering your face.

depending on the stage , meta knights bair destroys villager offstage.

 

[Makorel]

Oh since we're still on the subject of edguarding and Villager, Villager's recovery being good is a misconception. While Villagers are rarely gimped if ever, using BT is like flying with a hit me sign covering your face.

It's more like you have two "Hit me" signs between your head and my meteor.

 

[Antonykun]

depending on the stage , meta knights bair destroys villager offstage.

destroy the balloons? yeah, I wouldn't be suprised. @SolidSense said Pika's b-air pops them too
destroy villager? thanks for reinforcing my point about BT!
In another tangent EBT actually makes it so villager recovery IS good.

 

[Shaya]

So, I'm not much of a smash 4 player, but can someone explain to me how Marth is considered a "low mid to low" tier character?

As a character his every action is about 50% more cool down than everyone else for what he gets, he was heavily gutted in the air. He isn't rewarded for spacing due to this because he remains punishable on whiff/shield by everyone.
His rewards are large, but has very poor set ups into them (none; bar untippered fair stuff, which is pretty good and not yet fully explored).

Poor recovery, poor grab game (bar rage up throw being a big factor to his ability to beat anyone ever), easily camped, easily baited, easily punished (with hard punishes).

His best tool(s) to excel with like Down Tilt aren't extremely useful in most high/top tier match ups, who have faster/longer range options with better rewards to combat it.

 

[Akhenderson]

As a character his every action is about 50% more cool down than everyone else for what he gets, he was heavily gutted in the air. He isn't rewarded for spacing due to this because he remains punishable on whiff/shield by everyone.
His rewards are large, but has very poor set ups into them (none; bar untippered fair stuff, which is pretty good and not yet fully explored).

Poor recovery, poor grab game (bar rage up throw being a big factor to his ability to beat anyone ever), easily camped, easily baited, easily punished (with hard punishes).

His best tool(s) to excel with like Down Tilt aren't extremely useful in most high/top tier match ups, who have faster/longer range options with better rewards to combat it.

Ok cool, that helps me understand a lot about why he's considered a weak character. Thanks a lot!