Character Competitive Impressions

[Cenizas]

Only custom samus can :D relentless missles are too much fun.

*edit* this entire post is just unserious theory carft

I was Samus playing against my friend's Ness once and my Relentless Missile spam kept him stuck in place trying to recover for a minute, then I swooped in with a d-air for the kill. Tastiest salt ever.

Relentless Missiles makes for the most ez mode edgegaurding lol. Missiles -> d-air/CS/Slip Bomb. You have to position yourself well though, close enough so missiles don't ram into the stage because of homing, but far enough so that there isn't any space between the edge and where the missile spawns to not allow any blindspots.

 

[NairWizard]

Diddy Kong has a few matchups into which I wouldn't take him (like Olimar or Luigi). I can't think of many matchups in which I'd not want to take Sheik (the Ness MU, maybe?). On top of that, Sheik has just as many truly dominant matchups as Diddy. Seriously, browse through the character forums. At least half of them claim that their worst MU is Sheik. Greninja, Yoshi, Villager, Sonic, Megaman, etc.

I believe that Sheik is better, yes. As most of my characters, I am totally more afraid of a good Sheik than a good Diddy.

Diddy is way easier to be good with, however, for trivially less reward.

 

[thehard]

Diddy Kong has a few matchups into which I wouldn't take him (like Olimar or Luigi). I can't think of many matchups in which I'd not want to take Sheik (the Ness MU, maybe?). On top of that, Sheik has just as many truly dominant matchups as Diddy. Seriously, browse through the character forums. At least half of them claim that their worst MU is Sheik. Greninja, Yoshi, Villager, etc.

I believe that Sheik is better, yes. As most of my characters, I am totally more afraid of a good Sheik than a good Diddy.

Diddy is way easier to be good with, however, for trivially less reward.

Nice to see you think Luigi > Diddy too. Although I'm realizing that while I'm also a staunch believer I've never explained why.

So let's see-
Fireball messes up dash grabs & Banana
Luigi can make good use of a stolen Banana to lead into his own grab setups or Up-B
Down-B destroys Diddy's recovery
Fast aerials means that if Diddy sends him up Luigi can scare him out of pursuing
He's slippery? It just feels like that skews the matchup in his favor SOME how.

I think I've seen something like 75-80% of all Luigi v Diddy matches go in his favor. Although the games usually aren't stomps because Diddy has that universal cheese factor.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Can someone test if G&W's chef can wreck Diddy's recovery?

 

[Shaya]

Diddy is way easier to be good with, however, for trivially less reward.

Up Throw Uair being a consistent kill at <90% is NOT trivially less reward.
Having two-three times damage per hit with not significantly worse frame data is NOT trivially less reward.

The Sheik we see right now is pretty well advanced on several of her moves (needles, bouncing fish, fair, bair), while seeing good use of most of her move set (but noticeably not her smashes, side-b, crouching).
Meanwhile we're seeing 90% of Diddys not use more than three-four moves (every few weeks a new move is added to the 'common Diddy' due to natural meta exposure) and they're the ones still taking most tournaments and knocking out most top players. The use of those limited moves isn't even as expansive as I KNOW they're capable of using them as.


Sheik probably does have a better match up spread to offer right now, but I don't think it's necessarily reflecting in results. Diddy's skews are a lot more noticeable than Sheik's when it comes to practical exposure.

I've been watching Diddy's knock out Sheiks all day.

 

[Radical Larry]

Can someone test if G&W's chef can wreck Diddy's recovery?

If you don't want Rocket Barrels flying everywhere, go ahead.

 

[NairWizard]

Up Throw Uair being a consistent kill at <90% is NOT trivially less reward.
Having two-three times damage per hit with not significantly worse frame data is NOT trivially less reward.

You misread. Trivially less reward in terms of matchups.

 

[thehard]

Can someone test if G&W's chef can wreck Diddy's recovery?

It wrecks a lot of recoveries. 'cuz G&W sure isn't killing any other way.
But seriously, he has a great off-stage game. Chef is unpredictable and has massive coverage, and if they recover high you can juggle with up-air. Ledge snap? Down-tilt. If you go deep, nair, bair, and fair all have uses. Can also up-b for surprise stage spikes.

 

[NairWizard]

Nice to see you think Luigi > Diddy too. Although I'm realizing that while I'm also a staunch believer I've never explained why.

So let's see-
Fireball messes up dash grabs & Banana
Luigi can make good use of a stolen Banana to lead into his own grab setups or Up-B
Down-B destroys Diddy's recovery
Fast aerials means that if Diddy sends him up Luigi can scare him out of pursuing
He's slippery? It just feels like that skews the matchup in his favor SOME how.

I think I've seen something like 75-80% of all Luigi v Diddy matches go in his favor. Although the games usually aren't stomps because Diddy has that universal cheese factor.

The reason that it's close is simple. Luigi wants to grab people. He really, really does.

Diddy also wants to grab people. He really, really does (though more Diddys are learning to use his f-air now).

Diddy going in for a grab gives Luigi a chance to grab as well.

Diddy basically lets Luigi play his game. Luigi does have some problems in the MU, though (f-air is monstrous, and Luigi's fallspeed makes it harder to avoid up-air).

 

[thehard]

I legitimately was going to post just that but I felt like it was bordering on a **** post...even if it's true

 

[Cenizas]

Can someone test if G&W's chef can wreck Diddy's recovery?

Sort of. It has limited vertical range and will just faze out after reaching some distance. If there's a gap in the stage's underside Diddy can abuse that and just charge up B to reach the other side. In range of Chef however, Diddy's wrecked obviously.

 

[Shaya]

You misread. Trivially less reward in terms of matchups.

Being maybe 45:55 against characters while having a consistent match up plan + dominant spread of states at every percent (a factor we're not taking into account as much) is a heavy factor to what's keeping those diddy's winning. When you aren't getting free follow ups from needles by people holding forward, when rage is (your own and the enemies) getting in the way and when the opponent has stage control, the Sheik player is in a much worse position than Diddy ever is.

Luigi doesn't have to respect Diddy much. He's lucky. Suddenly Diddy's may have to learn to use back air, peanut cancels, or instead of going for grabs just maintain stage control; Luigi doesn't deal with fair well at all (whoops, you ninja'd this yourself). After Dakpo in Texas, I'm not sure of any other Luigi players who aren't losing to their region's top diddy's though, know any?
Olimar is a match up we've seen a lot of, but beyond Dabuz I don't believe those Olis are taking out Diddys much, if ever.

 

[thehard]

I feel like "just get Diddy off-stage and gimp him" is the new "just get Mac off-stage and gimp him". As in, easier said than done.

Plus, Diddy doesn't have a bad recovery per se, he has an unpredictable, hard to control one. But in practice I see this working against the edgeguarder often. It really does mix players up. And it KILLS. You can rely on Monkey Flip to get back to safe ground more often than not too, especially up high.

I will however chalk this up to player inexperience and maybe even a little thoughtlessness when judging Diddy's trajectory. I don't think players are going as deep as they could be in general. Smash 4 edgeguarding is still in its infancy.

There's my pessimism for the month.

It's not like we don't see Diddy gimps and that they'll become rarer as time goes on, likely just the opposite. I just don't like players underestimating this aspect of him.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's worth pointing out that Mew2King has said that he would be maining Sheik in Smash 4 if not for the fact that he doesn't want it to inadvertently weaken or mess up his Melee Sheik.

Same thing goes for AmSa and Yoshi.

 

[thehard]

Somehow I believe amsa and not m2k

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Somehow I believe amsa and not m2k

Aww don't be like that.

 

[Kofu]

If you don't want Rocket Barrels flying everywhere, go ahead.

He can bucket the explosion, GG.

 

[thehard]

On the subject of gimps, I think as time goes on Ness is going to fall victim to a lot of these and see less usage. Yeah his recovery is improved but it's still...Ness's recovery.

He's pretty screwed against G&W off-stage for what it's worth.

 

[wedl!!]

on the subject of excel_zero;

peach is ****ing disgusting in this game i love it

 

[Road Death Wheel]

on the subject of excel_zero;

peach is ****ing disgusting in this game i love it

On the subject of @ wedl!!

Statements are pointless without reasoning.

 

[ramskick]

I know I'm late on this, but could someone explain why Yoshi dominates Fox? I always seem to have trouble fighting any Fox I play.

My main struggles with Yoshi come from the fact that he can beat me no matter how I play. If I try to camp with lasers (not a good option to begin with) egg toss is a much better projectile so I have to approach and Yoshi straight up beats out a lot of Fox's approaches (SH nair in particular). Whenever I actually get close a quick jump puts him in a position with a few options to escape me. In short, Yoshi just beats Fox no matter what Fox tries to do (or so i've noticed).

 

[Antonykun]

On the subject of @ wedl!!

Statements are pointless without reasoning.

I thought he was just commentating on excel's performance.

 

[Dre89]

Everything starts to devolve when a character can rely on singular actions, heck, not even winning in neutral, to actually still win games. Diddy at most levels can suffice with just waiting for a dash grab and all the efforts players are making to combat this only goes to push Diddy's to use their other moves (which are still top tier). That pressure Diddy exerts though doesn't change between levels of play at all though. Only a small select list of characters seem to have any chance against disrespectful Diddy (or can disrespect diddy themselves).

I find this part curious seeing as Sheik's pressure game is far more one-dimensional than Diddy's seeing as she can just spam needles and SH fair. Diddy's SH fair is harder to contest directly, but Sheik's is harder to punish if she misreads and has more combo potential than Diddy's.

I thought everyone had realised now that Sheik is a better character in every way except for KOing. She's better at camping, better frame data, combos/racks up % even better than Diddy does and has a better recovery. That's why pretty much every high level player I've heard comment on the topic says Sheik is better (I'm sure there are other high level players who disagree though).

 

[Luco]

On the subject of gimps, I think as time goes on Ness is going to fall victim to a lot of these and see less usage. Yeah his recovery is improved but it's still...Ness's recovery.

He's pretty screwed against G&W off-stage for what it's worth.

In this particular MU, Ness finds it significantly harder to recover than most. The saving grace that keeps this MU in our favour is pretty much solely Bthrow and the ludicrous percents at which it kills G&W.

It's not a particularly fantastic MU but it's not on the level of Rosa. Thank gawd, that was one of our more hideous Brawl MUs. @.@

 

[Smooth Criminal]

At the guy that said multiple jumps help D3 out in the Megaman MU:

No. See, you're thinking that Mega has to even venture within that sphere of influence where D3's aerials hold sway. He doesn't. He can stay right out of D3's optimal range and get away with it. Nair, blades, bombs---if D3 is bobbing around within fullhop or shorthop range, even while pressing buttons, those moves can and will shut the penguin down. D3's aerial mobility is also garbage anyways, while Megaman's is actually pretty decent, allowing him the option to freely crossup, manuever, move under, and create landing/frame traps against D3.

It is a dreadful MU.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

I just imagined Dedede with Super Speed in my head and legitimately was terrified by the mental image.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I just imagined Dedede with Super Speed in my head and legitimately was terrified by the mental image.

Bro

If he had a move like that

Instantly mid-tier.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I thought he was just commentating on excel's performance.

*shrugs*

 

[Baskerville]

It's not a particularly fantastic MU but it's not on the level of Rosa.

Yoink.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bro

If he had a move like that

Instantly mid-tier.

Smooth Criminal

Monado arts as down b.

Shield art makes gordo's have 10% as there durability.

 

[Radical Larry]

He can bucket the explosion, GG.

Seriously, though, if you spam Chef, the hilariousness that is constant shooting Rocket Barrels will happen.

But onto the topic of Samus...
People say that she has a Zero-To-Death combo now, which I can just debunk right now:

1) She'd have to do it near the edge of the stage.
2) The opponent must have god awful DI or no DI to get caught in it.
3) She needs no Rage when it happens.

So how do you get out of this breakable combo? Well:

1) Make sure she's not at the edge when she does it.
2) Either DI or / (depending on direction).
3) Make sure to damage her as fast as possible so rage can hit, that way, you can DI better.
4) DI in the direction you are being sent on the last hit. It may seem silly, but remember, DI'ing in the direction your opponent hit you toward is a decent option if they are trying to combo you, but the best option against Samus' Zero-To-Death.

I don't see the big deal about Samus' Zero-To-Death, and honestly will never believe she's the outright best/a Top Tier character just because of that. It's the Link Frame Infinite Tech all over again; except this time, it's not as effective as one thinks it is.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Seriously, though, if you spam Chef, the hilariousness that is constant shooting Rocket Barrels will happen.

But onto the topic of Samus...
People say that she has a Zero-To-Death combo now, which I can just debunk right now:

1) She'd have to do it near the edge of the stage.
2) The opponent must have god awful DI or no DI to get caught in it.
3) She needs no Rage when it happens.

So how do you get out of this breakable combo? Well:

1) Make sure she's not at the edge when she does it.
2) Either DI or / (depending on direction).
3) Make sure to damage her as fast as possible so rage can hit, that way, you can DI better.
4) DI in the direction you are being sent on the last hit. It may seem silly, but remember, DI'ing in the direction your opponent hit you toward is a decent option if they are trying to combo you, but the best option against Samus' Zero-To-Death.

I don't see the big deal about Samus' Zero-To-Death, and honestly will never believe she's the outright best/a Top Tier character just because of that. It's the Link Frame Infinite Tech all over again; except this time, it's not as effective as one thinks it is.

Can u post a link to this zero to death please i really want to look into this.

 

[Radical Larry]

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...-fair-fair-fair-death-super-smash-bros-wii-u/

The "combo" can be DI'd out of, so this is just quite the hard-to-believe thing, even with the video evidence.

In fact, I tested it out, and it's actually very, very hard to perform, and you can actually jump away from the D-Throw easily. You can get out of it in multiple ways, making it very hard to believe it'll be used to make her top tier.

The player (Mario) in the video just wasn't good at all, or was just a test dummy that the guy used to make his claim "valid", when it has very many faults within it.

 

[Dre89]

I feel like "just get Diddy off-stage and gimp him" is the new "just get Mac off-stage and gimp him". As in, easier said than done.

Plus, Diddy doesn't have a bad recovery per se, he has an unpredictable, hard to control one. But in practice I see this working against the edgeguarder often. It really does mix players up. And it KILLS. You can rely on Monkey Flip to get back to safe ground more often than not too, especially up high.

I will however chalk this up to player inexperience and maybe even a little thoughtlessness when judging Diddy's trajectory. I don't think players are going as deep as they could be in general. Smash 4 edgeguarding is still in its infancy.

There's my pessimism for the month.

It's not like we don't see Diddy gimps and that they'll become rarer as time goes on, likely just the opposite. I just don't like players underestimating this aspect of him.

No it really is as exploitable as people say it is once you realise that you can cover all of his recovery options without any real commitment. You basically just have to cover the sideb onto the ledge or stage and he's forced to drop low and upb. At that point you can knock him out of his upb when he goes for the ledge. When Diddy recovers low with upb he has to go for the ledge because he's too low to go for the stage, so it's predictable.

 

[Firefoxx]

Edge guarding definitely still has a long way to go. People often talk about how insane recoveries are in this game, but rarely seem to take advantage of that to go crazy deep on people.

 

[Yikarur]

lol you can't really gimp Diddy if he uses his recovery correctly. It might happen every now and then but it's not something you can rely on consistently.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I just imagined Dedede with Super Speed in my head and legitimately was terrified by the mental image.

 

[FullMoon]

I think it's worth pointing out that Mew2King has said that he would be maining Sheik in Smash 4 if not for the fact that he doesn't want it to inadvertently weaken or mess up his Melee Sheik.

Same thing goes for AmSa and Yoshi.

I just find it funny that aMSa ended up playing two characters that are often associated with each other in Smash. I mean, there's tons of Greninja and Yoshi fanart out there, usually with the latter trying to imitate the former =V

 

[wm1026]

I just find it funny that aMSa ended up playing two characters that are often associated with each other in Smash. I mean, there's tons of Greninja and Yoshi fanart out there, usually with the latter trying to imitate the former =V

I guess he just likes characters with long tongues

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

I wanna see what a match of dabuz vs whoever is considered to be the best ganon would look like
-who is btw? I haven't seen any videos of a ganon in tournament since the 3ds

Dabuz vs. @Ray_Kalm

Make this happen right now.