Character Competitive Impressions

[popsofctown]

No, Kirby has more water.
Lets take DDD, Bowser and Kirby.

I am either Shulk, Sword Fighter, Link, Toon Link, Marth....or hell DDD, maybe im Sheik, Diddy, Fox or Rosaluma.

I grab Bowser. I U-throw/D-throw on basically *any of these characters* and there are absolutely more...

What are your actual odds of getting back to ground, and if you do so, your ability to get to the ground without me regrabbing you.
If I knock you off after this exchange, how confident are you of returning to the actually bloody edge, against most of these characters.

Frankly I say Bowser gets screwed the most out of this selection full-stop. Because all he can confidently do is Jump once, and if we take him off-stage DDD and Kirby will return with more likelihood then Bowser. Many of these characters will slap his D-air and Bowser Bomb like they don't even matter.

I say Bowsers disadvantage state is actually terrible. He'll still win games because his reward is *that* good, but frankly we talk like "Diddy's recovery is vulnerable, and Rosaluma can't land" then wtf is Bowser.

Meanwhile Kirby's having low landing lag, a fast grab himself, fast tilts, combo's and a pummel that will certainly rack up enough damage and his "flaw" is that he "hasn't changed much from Brawl" Kirby mains won't even voice his strengths outside of saying how unspectacular they feel and the significance of customs, when his customs are really relevant, because his normals shouldn't b discredited.

Kirbys range and movement speed are still booty though.

Smash 4 is nice in that characters have things going for them, but like Marth V Lucina, the minor differences that you *don't have* are going to stand out. Kirby doesn't have range or movement speed oh and Ganon legitimately kills him in 3 good reads but it's way easier to take advantage of Bowser then Charizard.

I think the reduced startup frames on Slip Bomb (which ledgesnaps) help tremendously with the juggling problem, but I've been told I don't know how to play Smash for saying that.

 

[Locke 06]

Charizard is a monster. Previous pages established that he is close to the most viable large character due to his great punish game, super armor, recovery, and grab game. He's probably #1 in survivability. Combine survivability with a great kill throw and a solid up-B OOS killer and you have a rage monster.

I do wonder who Samus fares against the top. My uninformed impression is that she loses to all of those perceived as "tip top characters" with her "best top matchup" maybe being Ness, since she can go toe-to-toe with him in terms of combo power and her Z-air outranges his aerial kit (I see it as maybe being even?).

 

[Terotrous]

Hmm.
I say Kirby has better MU's then Bowser and better MU's vs more noteworthy characters.
If anything I'd say Kirby is stronger in our current meta with the current picks we have then Bowser is.

I dunno, I feel like the thing with Kirby is that while he does alright in some matchups, in the matchups where he does bad, he does REALLY bad. Even though you may have a numerical edge against Bowser, you always kind of have to respect him because he has good OOS and he hits like a truck. Kirby doesn't really have the same threat and he's so easily walled out by zoners that I fear people could just counterpick him.

Charizard is a monster. Previous pages established that he is close to the most viable large character due to his great punish game, super armor, recovery, and grab game.

Are we counting Ike as large?

Also, in Customs on, I think it's fairly clear that DK is the best large body if Ike doesn't count.

He's probably #1 in survivability. Combine survivability with a great kill throw and a solid up-B OOS killer and you have a rage monster.

Charizard UpB OOS never works properly for me, it always just gets one hit but the second hit (the strong hit) doesn't land. Is there some trick to make it work, or do you have to use one of the customs?

 

[warionumbah2]

Everyone's a 'monster' just like Zelda,Bowser jr and Lucina.

 

[HeroMystic]

Okay, Zelda I'll give you...

But Zard, Samus, and Junior have no business being down there whatsoever.

Smooth Criminal

I can argue Samus being bottom 5 because I really really want to use her as a secondary (to offset my aggressive nature and short range with Mario). She has a good amount of solid tools like (Falling) U-air, D-air, Charged Shot, and has the fastest F-Smash in the game, and she combos better than most of her fellow low tiers while retaining strong kill moves like B-air (This has gotta be one of the strongest B-airs in the game), and being difficult to kill due to her weight while being extremely floaty, giving her a solid recovery.

Despite all of these great qualities (if not amazing in terms of B-air), they're outweighted by the glaring problem that all you have to do is get up in her face and ultimately she struggles to get you off her by a heavy amount. She needs stage control in order to become "scary", and she doesn't have any real answers to get out of a disadvantaged state outside of maybe Morph Ball Bombs and N-air.

If you wanna win with Samus you can't miss a beat with her. You have to Screw Attack OOS every time, use missiles appropriately, and keep stage control at all times. I love my armored girl to death, but her neutrals are ultimately what hold her back from being a great character.

I will say I believe she has better neutrals than Robin though.

 

[Unknownkid]

I don't understand why people keep *****ing about Luigi's aerial speed. Characters are allowed to have weaknesses. It also gives him a defining quality. Even if we had the option to, I wouldn't want to buff or increase his aerial speed because it detracts from his theme.

Anyway. I see a lot of characters being labeled as bad that really have no business being labeled as bad. Characters I can definitively say are lackluster from my experience are Samus, Charizard, Zelda, and Bowser Jr. to some extent.

Only one person seems to be complaining about Luigi's air speed and he is a Luigi main. Besides the fact what Luigi can do, have shown, and his placement in the tier. He wants this character to achieve a slight buff. You know, to have an easier time to beating the top tier characters.

I see nothing wrong with asking for buff to help your character. It is not like the low tier character needs assistance to be more viable >_>.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I dunno, I feel like the thing with Kirby is that while he does alright in some matchups, in the matchups where he does bad, he does REALLY bad.

Such as....

Kirby doesn't really have the same threat and he's so easily walled out by zoners that I fear people could just counterpick him.

You think Bowser can't be counter-picked?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Charizard can steer his up special a bit; you have to direct it into victims to get a clean hit. It's really not a great move, but it can come in handy.

As per Charizard vs DK, I dunno. Charizard has better moves in general, but he doesn't have any one move as great as Kong Cyclone (Dragon Rush is pretty great though). DK has a bit better mobility, but Charizard's is really not bad and in particular Charizard has a much better recovery. I really like Charizard in this game since he has such a fundamentally better neutral than someone like DK; Charizard can spray completely safe hitboxes in front of himself with Flamethrower (legitimately may be the best projectile in the game, people don't even know), Charizard has insane grab range, and Charizard has a great jab. It really lets him play a completely game in a way a lot of the other bigs can't, and I see that as powerful. I think it's really easy to just see Charizard as awful until you see him in action, it clicks that his neutral game is really legitimate but that he can still do the power character thing, and then he's great. I foresee good things in Charizard's future.

Ike is kinda hard to look at in the "big" comparison since he's closer to someone like Shulk than someone like Charizard, definitely a solid character (in customs on) but more of a spacing character than a power character. My list of "heavyweights" would be the characters who play like a big, focused on their power. That would be Bowser, DK, Charizard, DDD, and Ganon. If I had to make a list, it would be Charizard > DK > Bowser > Ganon >>> DDD (if customs off, flip around Bowser and DK, though really all of these characters are built for customs on).

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth wasn't in the game, I think Lucina would do okay. Has she wow'd me? Not really, but a lot of that has to do with characters who don't care about her game plan. I've been on record saying Marcina is a bad MU for Mega and it's not because of tippers, it's due to fast walking speed, range, and option coverage, which Lucina does. When I play DK, I am not scared of anything she does outside of countering my own strength or maybe breaking my shield.

Many characters just don't care about Lucina's strengths. However, some of them do and I think there are enough of those in that population that allow her to be a slightly below average character. The comparisons to Marth, I think, are taken a little too harshly.


If you think Mega Man cares about reflector arm, you're playing the wrong Mega Man. I invite a ROB to try and reflect all the 1-2% pellets, metal blades, and crash bomb/ice slashers that get pelted at him without taking a hard punish.

The custom you want to bring up is Skull Barrier, which essentially gives Mega Man a temporary Franklin Badge. It's a very unique reflector. There are mixed feelings about the ROB v Mega Man matchup from the Mega Man side, but with Skull Barrier, I'd say it's solidly in Mega Man's favor.


Other bottom 5 thoughts of those that were mentioned:
- my opinions of the character have changed quite a bit due to some dthrow chain grab shenanigans. There is too much "jank" in this character, especially against the top, to be terribly low.
has some good matchups against the top of the cast, even without customs. Mostly due to his f1 crouching (lol zss) and utilt strings.


And would people stop mentioning Mac's win over Greninja at APEX? Anyone actually watching that match should have seen the multiple missed opportunities to end Mac's life.

Megaman beats Marcina imo though I think smart rolling and their SH AD might push it in their favor. I haven't tested it much vs him.

As an idiot player who messes around with characters and who only has a 3DS and has no idea how to use either of them aside from tip with Marth and don't screw up with Lucina, yeah, Luci scares me when I'm playing as Marth - Lag too, but that's another story everyone deals with when they're playing online. Marth has to be precise to do much while Luci can consistently do damage if the player knows what they're doing. I don't, so I get screwed over and wonder why Luci is living at 150% and I'm dead at around 100%. Now, if I'm using Falco, Ike, Ganondorf, or someone safer or more familiar to me like Dr. Mario, Mega Man, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, etc., then sure, it's all right, but if I pick Marth and I face Lucina, I'm probably screwed.

Marth has low rewards and high risks that requires so much precision in SSB4. I can't think of any other character that has to be this precise in a fighting game. Zangief? Nah, I shouldn't be throwing out names that I don't know. Maybe someone from Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3...

Marth vs Lucina let Lucina space for YOU then shed tears of pity as she seals her own demise against her ancestor.

Marth doesn't do anything in that match. Lucina does all the work and then loses unless she is just THAT much better in skill then the Marth.

 

[Unknownkid]

Such as....

He referring to someone like Yoshi. Kirby vs Yoshi MU is a difficult matchup for Kirby. Especially if the Yoshi player mainly camps with Eggs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also guys stop it.

Samus is the worse come on now.

Be serious.

 

[Terotrous]

Such as....

Yoshi is probably the best example, on the Kirby board they discussed the MU (with input from some Yoshi players) and the general consensus that it was -3, maybe even worse without customs. I can't imagine DHD or ROB being much better, but they're a bit more complex to use.

You think Bowser can't be counter-picked?

I actually think attempting to counterpick Bowser with a character that isn't your main is quite dangerous, because if you leave yourself open you'll get punished hard. It's probably best to just try to outplay him with whomever you're best with. By comparison you can pick Yoshi and throw eggs at Kirby for relatively little risk.

Charizard can steer his up special a bit; you have to direct it into victims to get a clean hit. It's really not a great move, but it can come in handy.

I've tried this, but it seems like they can DI out. Maybe they have to hit your shield super deep? Not too reliable if so, though. It should really just have a slight vacuum effect on the first hit.

In any case, compare Bowser UpB OOS, which punishes reliably even from decent range. I think a lot of people sleep on how good that OOS option is.

Charizard can spray completely safe hitboxes in front of himself with Flamethrower (legitimately may be the best projectile in the game, people don't even know)

Flamethrower is solid and all but there's seriously no way it's better than Eggs and Needles. Those moves just have such insane versatility that a move like Flamethrower doesn't have.

That would be Bowser, DK, Charizard, DDD, and Ganon. If I had to make a list, it would be Charizard > DK > Bowser > Ganon >>> DDD (if customs off, flip around Bowser and DK, though really all of these characters are built for customs on).

Why do you think D3 is so bad? He has solid pokes, some decent aerials, good recovery, good throw conversion, and Bouncing Gordo is a pretty crazy space control tool. I mean, he still has the same problems as the other heavyweights, but I don't see him as being especially terrible.

 

[Locke 06]

Everyone's a 'monster' just like Zelda,Bowser jr and Lucina.

No... monster is a word that is best used to describe Charizard. He's that thing that gives you nightmares. He is intimidating and destructive like a "monster." See AA's post.

Megaman beats Marcina imo though I think smart rolling and their SH AD might push it in their favor. I haven't tested it much vs him.

Walk + shield approach forces retreat against pellets. Bully until you get him to the edge. Especially for characters with good range, Mega Man has trouble taking back stage control without putting himself in the air or putting himself in danger. Metal blade + grab is great, but that's the tool you look out for. SH AD and smart rolling help too, but I think the main way to beat Mega Man's pellet spacing is to walk + shield to force retreat and try and shut down his air-game. Nobody does those 2 things better than Marcina IMO.

Edit: just for those curious, I have MK, Sheik, and Marth being Mega Man's worst matchups in that order.

But actually. Who does Samus beat that's even close to relevant in the meta?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

He referring to someone like Yoshi. Kirby vs Yoshi MU is a difficult matchup for Kirby. Especially if the Yoshi player mainly camps with Eggs.

Yoshi beats Bowser, don't slay me. If you want to trivialize Kirby vs Yoshi to "throw eggs" Im going to trivialize every Bowser MU to "U-throw".

Show me someone Kirby thereotically loses to that Bowser doesnt first of all, and show me all the relevant MU's Bowser isn't inferior in.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi beats Bowser, don't slay me.

I don't think it's by nearly as much though. Maybe +1. Bowser can shrug off Egg hits much easier than Kirby, and UpB OOS is a dangerous punish option from up close.

 

[Locke 06]

Kirby has a tough time vs Mega. Customs on helps a bit, but DAir gets stuffed by Mega's anti-air and pellets make approaching tough. Add in that Kirby really wants to be in and utilt kills so early... it's tough. Kirby's combo strings are his saving grace, but he's got to out play Mega by quite a bit.

(But you're not going to counterpick mega man unless you actually use him)

Mega also makes Bowser's life very difficult with a projectile uair.

Back to the subject I want to know. Who does Samus beat that's relevant?

 

[Unknownkid]

Yoshi beats Bowser, don't slay me.

Haha relax, bro. I will not slay you. I believe Bowser has an easier time with Yoshi than Kirby. I mean he can trade hits well and can use rage to his advantage. But I could be wrong. I rarely use Bowser.

Yoshi is probably the best example, on the Kirby board they discussed the MU (with input from some Yoshi players) and the general consensus that it was -3, maybe even worse without customs. I can't imagine DHD or ROB being much better, but they're a bit more complex to use.

I find DHD and ROB easier but Tlink and Link are a different story.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't think it's by nearly as much though. Maybe +1. Bowser can shrug off Egg hits much easier than Kirby, and UpB OOS is a dangerous punish option from up close.

that only a few characters have. to help him play the game. He can fully stay on the ground.

Yoshi's tail in U-air is disjointed and again goes against every option Bowser has in the air, while Yoshi also has the aeiral maneuverability to invalidate every remaining portion of Bowsers air game.

Spare me the eggs, its overstated.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi beats Bowser, don't slay me. If you want to trivialize Kirby vs Yoshi to "throw eggs" Im going to trivialize every Bowser MU to "U-throw".

Even if we accept that the MU is as simple as you're stating here, that already espouses the difference. You have to get close to land a grab, close enough for Bowser to hit you. Conversely, you can throw projectiles from a safe distance.

Actually, the key to trivializing Bowser is basically the same as Kirby, like Kirby he also has some problems approaching. Luckily for him though he has the defense to take a few hits on the way in while Kirby really doesn't. In addition to having terrible approach, Kirby's weight is also on the low end of the roster.

Show me someone Kirby thereotically loses to that Bowser doesnt first of all, and show me all the relevant MU's Bowser isn't inferior in.

I would definitely say the Yoshi MU is one. Among other things, Yoshi UThrow does not grant much advantage.

Yoshi's tail in U-air is disjointed and again goes against every option Bowser has in the air, while Yoshi also has the aeiral maneuverability to invalidate every remaining portion of Bowsers air game.

Yoshi Uair flat out loses to Bowser DownB and frequently trades or loses to Dair.

 

[HeroMystic]

Back to the subject I want to know. Who does Samus beat that's relevant?

Literally no one. Her closest even match is against Rosalina and that's still in her favor because Luma tanking shots.

 

[Nu~]

Literally no one. Her closest even match is against Rosalina and that's still in her favor because Luma tanking shots.

Even with relentless missles? It doesn't really improve her nuetral, but it helps a bit with keeping people out.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Even if we accept that the MU is as simple as you're stating here, that already espouses the difference. You have to get close to land a grab, close enough for Bowser to hit you. Conversely, you can throw projectiles from a safe distance.

Actually, the key to trivializing Bowser is basically the same as Kirby, like Kirby he also has some problems approaching. Luckily for him though he has the defense to take a few hits on the way in while Kirby really doesn't. In addition to having terrible approach, Kirby's weight is also on the low end of the roster.



I would definitely say the Yoshi MU is one. Among other things, Yoshi UThrow does not grant much advantage.



Yoshi Uair flat out loses to Bowser DownB and frequently trades or loses to Dair.

Except just throwing projectiles doesn't actually force an advantage on a grounded kirby, since it can be power shielded indefinitely, unless its wifi day. Kirby isn't Jigglypuff nor is he relegated to being in the air as much as her.

The arcs themselves at which Yoshi can even hit Kirby are less leniant then they are against Bowser.

 

[Funtroon]

So, can someone explain to me why Zelda is considered to be bad? I've been playing her for a good couple of days now and I'm finding that she can be somewhat effective, especially in getting early kills on the opponent.

 

[Cenizas]

Hey, what do you guys think about R.O.B.?

 

[Terotrous]

Except just throwing projectiles doesn't actually force an advantage on a grounded kirby, since it can be power shielded indefinitely

Even the pros can't powershield 100% of the time, particularly not against a projectile like Yoshi's where he can vary the trajectories and the timings so much. Eventually your shield is going to wear down.

Also, if Yoshi has the percent lead, he's willing to just sit there and get the timeout. If not, he does have the tools to battle for stage control and then start using the eggs to harass Kirby when he tries to regain stage position.


Running in and shielding is fairly effective against Eggs, (this is generally the best way to get in), but Bowser does it better due to his larger shield and better UpB OOS.


Anyway, if you want to watch a clinic on how to be a cheap dirtbag and lame Kirby out with Eggs, see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yc9WLQGmEQ

Note that you don't literally just stand there and do nothing but throw eggs the whole time, but the wall of hitboxes they can provide on a moment's notice is still a big factor.

 

[HeroMystic]

Even with relentless missles? It doesn't really improve her nuetral, but it helps a bit with keeping people out.

I haven't used customs with Samus, but going by @ Thinkaman 's impressions, they're nothing that helps Samus' MUs.

The fact that Charged Shot can be cancelled out by random projectiles doesn't help much either.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Even the pros can't powershield 100% of the time, particularly not against a projectile like Yoshi's where he can vary the trajectories and the timings so much. Eventually your shield is going to wear down.

Also, if Yoshi has the percent lead, he's willing to just sit there and get the timeout. If not, he does have the tools to battle for stage control and then start using the eggs to harass Kirby when he tries to regain stage position.


Running in and shielding is fairly effective against Eggs, though (this is generally the best way to get in), but Bowser does it better due to his larger shield and better UpB OOS.

Yoshi can do the exact same thing to Bowser. Bowser can't keep up with Yoshi, if you want to lame it out. What are you playing at. Bowsers shield has no more health then Kirbys and if anything is *easier* to pressure precisely because Yoshis accuracy is far more guaranteed against Bowser then Kirby.

Bowsers also weaker in disadvantage which Yoshi can absolutely press among other characters. In stark contrast to Charizard who has real tools to get out of that position and a lower frame or Kirby, with Jumps, and even Upper cutter oddly enough.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi can do the exact same thing to Bowser. Bowser can't keep up with Yoshi, if you want to lame it out. What are you playing at. Bowsers shield has no more health then Kirbys and if anything is *easier* to pressure precisely because Yoshis accuracy is far more guaranteed against Bowser then Kirby.

Bowsers also weaker in disadvantage which Yoshi can absolutely bring him to.

Yes, the general strategy is the same, but Bowser hits you way harder if he gets in.

That's the thing. Yes, they both have bad approach, but at least Bowser has the standard high defense and high reward that you'd expect from a "grappler" archetype. Kirby has the damage and weight of a light, speedy character, but he really isn't one. That's why he's kind of a "broken character" and tends to be so low on the tierlists for each game, except 64 when he had the mobility that he needed to be good.

 

[IsmaR]

Luma tanking shots goes both ways. It'll stop a fully charged shot/Super Missile, but even a light tap from homing missiles/uncharged shots/Z-air will delay/separate it. Rosalina should be abusing Gravitational Pull rather than relying on it for anything defensewise, anyway.

Regardless, the amount of sleeping on this character isn't particularly surprising. Short of the occasional stint from ChoZox, no one has really given her much exposure. Incredibly easy to write her off, especially if you haven't taken Z-air down the throat (like Smooth Criminal has)

 

[Kofu]

I haven't used customs with Samus, but going by @ Thinkaman 's impressions, they're nothing that helps Samus' MUs.

The fact that Charged Shot can be cancelled out by random projectiles doesn't help much either.

IIRC she did move up a few tiers on his list with customs, though.

I like how people are placing Game & Watch in bottom 5 just a few pages after Shaya highlights what he can do. The biggest reasons seem to be "he's weak" (which I assume means he struggles to kill) and "he's light," both of which are valid concerns. However, the lack of kill power can basically be ignored (something Shaya brought up and something I've felt but lacked the patience to apply) and his recovery is such that if you don't kill him outright, he's probably going to survive. I'm fine with him in the bottom half of the roster, but bottom 5?

No.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Luma tanking shots goes both ways. It'll stop a fully charged shot/Super Missile, but even a light tap from homing missiles/uncharged shots/Z-air will delay/separate it. Rosalina should be abusing Gravitational Pull rather than relying on it for anything defensewise, anyway.

Regardless, the amount of sleeping on this character isn't particularly surprising. Short of the occasional stint from ChoZox, no one has really given her much exposure. Incredibly easy to write her off, especially if you haven't taken Z-air down the throat (like Smooth Criminal has)

What she can do?

Zair is no more impressive then it was in Brawl and her kit was slightly better in that game.

No one is sleeping on her. She isn't good.

Who is she better then in your opinion? Who does she beat?

 

[|RK|]

Even the pros can't powershield 100% of the time, particularly not against a projectile like Yoshi's where he can vary the trajectories and the timings so much. Eventually your shield is going to wear down.

Also, if Yoshi has the percent lead, he's willing to just sit there and get the timeout. If not, he does have the tools to battle for stage control and then start using the eggs to harass Kirby when he tries to regain stage position.


Running in and shielding is fairly effective against Eggs, (this is generally the best way to get in), but Bowser does it better due to his larger shield and better UpB OOS.


Anyway, if you want to watch a clinic on how to be a cheap dirtbag and lame Kirby out with Eggs, see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yc9WLQGmEQ

Note that you don't literally just stand there and do nothing but throw eggs the whole time, but the wall of hitboxes they can provide on a moment's notice is still a big factor.

Okay, the Yoshi/Kirby matchup is terrible for Kirby, but that was just a poor showing in general. The Kirby starting fishing really hard for the kills, tried to Kirbycide Yoshi at the beginning of Yoshi's stock, used Stone super-frequently, and made no attempts to block the eggs.

 

[Thinkaman]

I moves her up on a hunch because slow missiles and slip bombs seem good, but I would prefer to see this verified by results.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've tried this, but it seems like they can DI out. Maybe they have to hit your shield super deep? Not too reliable if so, though. It should really just have a slight vacuum effect on the first hit.

In any case, compare Bowser UpB OOS, which punishes reliably even from decent range. I think a lot of people sleep on how good that OOS option is.

Flamethrower is solid and all but there's seriously no way it's better than Eggs and Needles. Those moves just have such insane versatility that a move like Flamethrower doesn't have.

Why do you think D3 is so bad? He has solid pokes, some decent aerials, good recovery, good throw conversion, and Bouncing Gordo is a pretty crazy space control tool. I mean, he still has the same problems as the other heavyweights, but I don't see him as being especially terrible.

Yeah, Fly has serious reliability issues and is nowhere near as good as Whirling Fortress, no question on that. Steering into them just makes it a lot more likely to connect properly, but it's still really spacing/physics/DI dependent and is not one of Charizard's premium moves whereas Whirling Fortress is the best thing about Bowser. It's still a nice move once in a while though.

Eggs and Needles are really great; Flamethrower is probably on the same level though. How does it lack versatility? Flamethrower can be used to shield pressure, to counter-poke, to edgeguard, to protect your landing, to punish opposing landings, to zone... It hits over a big area, can do a lot of damage if you hit right, and it can be angled to sweep quite a bit of additional space at player preference. Raw versatility is actually the main reason I made that statement about Flamethrower, though it's definitely non-intuitive if you think about other smash games where moves like Flamethrower were so useless. If we analyze it deeply the question kinda breaks down; Charizard's gameplan is so different from Sheik's and Yoshi's and he has very different needs for his projectile to answer than they do, and all three have excellent projectiles that synergize well with the rest of what they do.

King Dedede is remarkably functional for how he's built; I'll give him that. King Dedede is probably the overall slowest character in the game with just dreadful attack speed and mobility; Ganon honestly seems to attack a bit faster on average, and Ganon at least has specials that throw him around to help his mobility while DDD has nothing of the sort. King Dedede, in practical terms when you look at reasonable to use moves, is probably the lowest power of the five heavyweights. His projectile is honestly a pretty badly designed move; it's very easy to steal it just by attacking it and turn it into a weapon that works against him, and he's actually the least suited character in the game to deal with gordos coming at him so in a tennis match he's always at the disadvantage. DDD's aerials also do such a poor job of protecting him; the other heavies all have some good stuff to help them out if they're being harassed in the air and generally good aerials while DDD has no tools and generally bad aerials.

For all that bad stuff that "on paper" makes DDD a contender for the worst character in the game, somehow DDD works out anyway. He is a wall of priority, and his lackluster normals at least synergize well with each other to give him a pretty respectable spatial control game to complement his general big play. I think overall King Dedede is a playable character and is impressively viable for what he is, but he still is what he is which isn't exactly inspiring...

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, the Yoshi/Kirby matchup is terrible for Kirby, but that was just a poor showing in general. The Kirby starting fishing really hard for the kills, tried to Kirbycide Yoshi at the beginning of Yoshi's stock, used Stone super-frequently, and made no attempts to block the eggs.

I think there were some mistakes on both sides (in particular, Dren had ages to avoid the Dtilt -> FSmash in game 2, he just seemingly froze up or something), but I think it makes the problem clear enough.

Kirby can low profile Yoshi's jab if he gets in, that's something, and Upper Cutter is a good move, but the huge disadvantage in aerial mobility and that projectile just really isn't a good look.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So, can someone explain to me why Zelda is considered to be bad? I've been playing her for a good couple of days now and I'm finding that she can be somewhat effective, especially in getting early kills on the opponent.

That's the only thing she can do well, outside of resetting to neutral, and the spacing/setups for those are pretty unreliable. If you're not landing Lightning Kicks(Zelda doesn't really have the tools to put you in situations where she can land them reliably) or Farore's Wind elevator(have to read their DI), you're not doing much of anything with Zelda. She's not horrible in the way that previous bottom tiers were, but everyone else has some tools that the opponent has to respect too, and they are generally better/more reliable than Zelda's.

 

[Cenizas]

@ Funtroon Zelda is bad because while she kills early, effectively is definitely quite the stretch. She's tall, floaty, and has atrocious mobility in general. All her kill moves got nerfed from Brawl and now you're stuck with Farore's as your one semi-reliable kill tool. Din's sucks in general, Phantom is ok but has giant blind spots and can't be stored, you can fall out of her smashes, her aerials have subpar practicality except for n-air, which only cover her sides. They made the end lag of her LKs around double of what they used to be, they took away u-tilt's KO power and made it into a rather dubious combo move, and they got rid of the range on d-smash.
Basically, they nerfed her to the ground even though she was already trash and her only saving grace is what they made Farore's Wind into and Smash 4 mechanics.

 

[Terotrous]

Eggs and Needles are really great; Flamethrower is probably on the same level though. How does it lack versatility? Flamethrower can be used to shield pressure, to counter-poke, to edgeguard, to protect your landing, to punish opposing landings, to zone... It hits over a big area, can do a lot of damage if you hit right, and it can be angled to sweep quite a bit of additional space at player preference. Raw versatility is actually the main reason I made that statement about Flamethrower, though it's definitely non-intuitive if you think about other smash games where moves like Flamethrower were so useless. If we analyze it deeply the question kinda breaks down; Charizard's gameplan is so different from Sheik's and Yoshi's and he has very different needs for his projectile to answer than they do, and all three have excellent projectiles that synergize well with the rest of what they do.

I dunno, I don't really feel like you can use Flamethrower for zoning / gimps the same way as those other projectiles. Still, I suppose if we look at how the move fits with Charizard's moveset rather than the raw utility of the move in general (Charizard has less need to gimp since he hits so hard, and he usually wants to be in your face anyway), it makes more sense.

King Dedede is remarkably functional for how he's built; I'll give him that. King Dedede is probably the overall slowest character in the game with just dreadful attack speed and mobility; Ganon honestly seems to attack a bit faster on average, and Ganon at least has specials that throw him around to help his mobility while DDD has nothing of the sort.

Compared to Ganon, you're trading power for range / disjointedness, though, and IMO for a big body that's usually a good trade. Dedede already hits pretty hard as it is.

His projectile is honestly a pretty badly designed move; it's very easy to steal it just by attacking it and turn it into a weapon that works against him

I really don't know why they gave him this drawback, but Bouncing Gordo is nearly immune to it thanks to the ways it tends to be used. Even if they hit it, it likely won't hit Dedede.

 

[Shaya]

What she can do?

Zair is no more impressive then it was in Brawl and her kit was slightly better in that game.

No one is sleeping on her. She isn't good.

Who is she better then in your opinion? Who does she beat?

If her Up-B was actually a kill move (to top off it being easy to fall out of, even in those 1 in a 100 'roofie set ups' she requires to get it to kill), Samus would be pretty good.

I do feel as if her tilts/smashes/aerials are generally more solid than Brawl though.

But you end the statement with the ultimate supposition. The answer is no one and really no one can convincingly argue much to otherwise at this stage. Samus players need to get their asses off of Wifi I guess.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yes, the general strategy is the same, but Bowser hits you way harder if he gets in.

That's the thing. Yes, they both have bad approach, but at least Bowser has the standard high defense and high reward that you'd expect from a "grappler" archetype. Kirby has the damage and weight of a light, speedy character, but he really isn't one. That's why he's kind of a "broken character" and tends to be so low on the tierlists for each game.

Except Bowsers not difficult to edgeguard so you don't need to KO him in the first place. Especially with Yoshi's N-air.

Kirby has the damage, the start-up, the combo flow, the cooldown, and the recovery. He lacks Speed and range, which frankly flow together. Not that Bowser is a race car anyways. Mind you neither Rosa or Olimar are fast either, and while Jiggly is fast in the air, she's a duck on the ground, with slower attacks on the ground and nigh equivalent range in general.

That video doesn't aid you. Eggs completely falling on free air, while Kirby throws out the most risky upper cutters he can and gets punished accordingly for something he should not have done. Im so sold.