Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

Except Bowsers not difficult to edgeguard so you don't need to KO him in the first place. Especially with Yoshi's N-air.

He can airdodge just as well as anyone else, and Fortress isn't a bad recovery move in general. Yoshi has good gimps, though it's not easy for him to send people low and far (the best spot to get a gimp) due to the way his knockback works. DSmash and Nair OOS are your main tools to set up a gimp opportunity and both are a bit risky to attempt against someone like Bowser.

That video doesn't aid you. Eggs completely falling on free air, while Kirby throws out the most risky upper cutters he can and gets punished accordingly for something he should not have done. Im so sold.

Kirby kinda has to take risks against Yoshi since he loses the neutral. Jurn did make some bad bets, but I don't fault him for taking them. All of his success came from getting in and forcing those scramble situations where Kirby can fight Yoshi on even terms (they both have frame 3 jab and Kirby can low profile some of Yoshi's attacks with DTilt).

At any rate, you're welcome to take Kirby to a tournament and body all the Yoshi players if you think you can. It's pretty widely accepted that that matchup is really bad.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

IIRC she did move up a few tiers on his list with customs, though.

I like how people are placing Game & Watch in bottom 5 just a few pages after Shaya highlights what he can do. The biggest reasons seem to be "he's weak" (which I assume means he struggles to kill) and "he's light," both of which are valid concerns. However, the lack of kill power can basically be ignored (something Shaya brought up and something I've felt but lacked the patience to apply) and his recovery is such that if you don't kill him outright, he's probably going to survive. I'm fine with him in the bottom half of the roster, but bottom 5?

No.

I do not believe G&W has the neutral tools to crack a solid defense at all. He's so unsafe on block, his grab range is microscopic, and the long commitment on his attacks often leaves him open to a stronger spatial control to score hits. I see G&W as someone who can do well if the opponent is hitting buttons since his moves are extremely good at beating other moves, but he just gets walled out by a more patient player who doesn't his many buttons. I really can't think of five characters more limited than that; it's a pretty devastating downside in my book especially for a character with substantial additional downsides anyway (like his weight and shockingly lacking power).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

He can airdodge just as well as anyone else, and Fortress isn't a bad recovery move in general. Yoshi has good gimps, though it's not easy for him to send people low and far (the best spot to get a gimp) due to the way his knockback works. DSmash and Nair OOS are your main gimp tools and both are a bit risky to attempt against someone like Bowser.

So because you have an air-dodge you're imprevious to Yoshi off-stage.... wait that isn't true at all.
Yoshi can legitimately N-air the fortress, continually.

At any rate, you're welcome to take Kirby to a tournament and body all the Yoshi players if you think you can. It's pretty widely accepted that that matchup is really bad.

For what. The argument is that Bowser deals with Yoshi better then Kirby, now you're trying to shift it to away to "beat Yoshis at Tourney". Im sorry what.

Lets revisit it. Kirby has better MU's.
The idea is that "well Kirbys bad matchups are SO BAD" relative to bowser bad matchups that Bowser is a stronger character.
Meanwhile you're arguments are almost entirely "well its really bad for Bowser, but he takes eggs better despite being a better target for them, and can hit harder in the case he gets in".

I call it ridic because Bowser has assuredly a weaker disadvantage state, that hinders far more then it does Kirby in contrast to a perceived minor strength in neutral.

Kirbys a better character

Im supposed to feel that Bowser > Kirby overall because Kirby Yoshi beats him slightly less hard
when half the world is wondering where Yoshi even "is" because of lack of play, and Yoshi isn't big in the GTA either so don't look to Ontario to prove were Yoshi's relevance is. Meanwhile Kirby is doing a lot better with a handful of characters, and most likely a better MU vs Shulk, Mac, Gunner and the like.

The bottom 5 barely matters given "who stinks less" is almost irrelevant, especially when players have problems confirming that X,Y and Z actually stink and "Well the bottom 5 stench is nice in Smash 4 unlike its predecessors", but I don't see any reason to rate Bowser over Kirby.

 

[Cryz]

Well yoshi is not a bad matchup because of the eggs only, its because he has a far better air mobility and aerials that outprioritize kirby's.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I can argue Samus being bottom 5 because I really really want to use her as a secondary (to offset my aggressive nature and short range with Mario). She has a good amount of solid tools like (Falling) U-air, D-air, Charged Shot, and has the fastest F-Smash in the game, and she combos better than most of her fellow low tiers while retaining strong kill moves like B-air (This has gotta be one of the strongest B-airs in the game), and being difficult to kill due to her weight while being extremely floaty, giving her a solid recovery.

Despite all of these great qualities (if not amazing in terms of B-air), they're outweighted by the glaring problem that all you have to do is get up in her face and ultimately she struggles to get you off her by a heavy amount. She needs stage control in order to become "scary", and she doesn't have any real answers to get out of a disadvantaged state outside of maybe Morph Ball Bombs and N-air.

If you wanna win with Samus you can't miss a beat with her. You have to Screw Attack OOS every time, use missiles appropriately, and keep stage control at all times. I love my armored girl to death, but her neutrals are ultimately what hold her back from being a great character.

I will say I believe she has better neutrals than Robin though.

i still dunno if i would call her bottom 5.
but i dunno even these so called bottom 5 character have geen getting results in tourny so maybe it aint so bad.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Well yoshi is not a bad matchup because of the eggs only, its because he has a far better air mobility and aerials that outprioritize kirby's.

You mean a trait Yoshi has against several other characters, such as....higher air mobility over Bowser.given Yoshi is one of the fastest in the game when it comes to the air? That's a given.

Just as Bowsers weight, Sonic speed, Marths walk, Shulk/Rosa/Donkey Range, etc.

Thing is air mobility and eggs are still relevant vs Bowser, Bowser has higher range and damage per hit, but exchange also lacks follow ups recovery, vastly slower attack speed. So while I can trivialize the MU to "range and Speed" Bowser has his own characteristics that work *for* and *against* him, and just as much as he deserves a stronger say, so does Kirby.

 

[Locke 06]

Ahh, Samus probably beats Luigi. There's one I feel decent about saying. Charge shot beats out fireballs on reaction, Z-Air gives him spacing hell, she doesn't need to ever be close enough for a grab. Ever.

Samus isn't awful in that she can't hold her own. She has great ways to unstale her moves (pummel and z-air), making up-B stronger as a vertical finisher and charge shot strong. 10f Fsmash helps a lot and her edge guarding is really good (charge shot and ZAir as gimpers work magic along with her great aerial kit). Throw in a good recovery and solid weight and she works. However, her kit just doesn't do well with most of the top characters which pressure her so much that charge shots are hard to come by. I've heard Chozo doing well and Z-airs are no joke, but now that they stale and have landing lag it's not as strong a move to space with (although freshening other moves is a good trade off). No disrespect to Chozo or any other Samus main who is doing good work, but matchup unfamiliarity helps Samus a lot, especially with Z-air spacing.

Ate lunch and that thought popped into my head.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ahh, Samus probably beats Luigi. There's one I feel decent about saying. Charge shot beats out fireballs on reaction, Z-Air gives him spacing hell, she doesn't need to ever be close enough for a grab. Ever.

Samus isn't awful in that she can't hold her own. She has great ways to unstale her moves (pummel and z-air), making up-B stronger as a vertical finisher and charge shot strong. 10f Fsmash helps a lot and her edge guarding is really good (charge shot and ZAir as gimpers work magic along with her great aerial kit). Throw in a good recovery and solid weight and she works. However, her kit just doesn't do well with most of the top characters which pressure her so much that charge shots are hard to come by. I've heard Chozo doing well and Z-airs are no joke, but now that they stale and have landing lag it's not as strong a move to space with (although freshening other moves is a good trade off). No disrespect to Chozo or any other Samus main who is doing good work, but matchup unfamiliarity helps Samus a lot, especially with Z-air spacing.

Ate lunch and that thought popped into my head.

Chozod definitly turned some heads witch was nice. but that match he lost he was definitly feeling the pressure man. tourny jitters all up in dat.

Though the most awsome thing i learned from him was charging to grab. its a pretty good fake out and has can force some respect when charging.

 

[NairWizard]

charizard actually stands as tall as fox because he's hunched over and his wings and half of his tail are disjointed

Yeah, but his horizontal hurtbox is larger, which matters when you have aerials like Pikachu's SH d-air. His wings and tail aren't fully invincible.


--

On the subject of Meta Knight Tornado... so one thing that I think makes Meta Knight really good in this game is how Tornado works equally well regardless of weight of opposing character. You won't have guys like Pikachu popping out any more--that's pretty great, and I think it gives MK an automatic advantage against most light and mid-weight characters, because Tornado does immense damage. Being able to do 20% just because your opponent airdodged is no joke. When an opponent is recovering high like Diddy with side-b you have a free Tornado--I can't recount how many times tournament-level Sheiks have bouncing fished toward the stage just to get caught by a Tornado during endlag.

Meta Knight destroys most of the cast. Not joking. Most people are still playing him as though he's Brawl Meta Knight, with air camping and tilts and trying to land gimps with d-air. Once you get used to playing the new defensive MK, he's a whole different animal.

At this point I think I would put him in High Tier, but Top Tier isn't out of scope for him.

--

I think that with customs on most of the heavies beat Pikachu. Charizard, Bowser, Ike, Donkey Kong . . . I wouldn't feel comfortable playing as Pikachu against any of them with their new tools. Pikachu is in that weight range where he needs to have full followups on his combos in order to win against characters who can survive to high rage. Since heavies all get new escape options like Bowser with dash klaw, Pikachu's followup game is substantially reduced (though not eliminated). It's a lot harder to hit a DK when he has the threat of Kong Cyclone on the table, or a lot harder to QA past a Charizard who has Dragon Rush to catch your landing.

Because of this, I think that in the customs-on metagame Pikachu is no longer Top Tier; he may be somewhere in High Tier (perhaps at the bottom of it), or Upper Mid, but definitely doesn't remain the best character in the game with customs.

As my secondary for customs I've decided to go with Mii Gunner, a character whom I believe to be better than Mii Brawler, and also an easy Top/High Tier based on my observations so far. I am working on my Gunner; I have some problems landing KOs, but that's a personal limitation, not a limitation of the character, and one that I will overcome in future tournaments. I think that this character has all the tools necessary to be top 5, no less efficient than Sheik or Diddy.

 

[Judo777]

What she can do?

Zair is no more impressive then it was in Brawl and her kit was slightly better in that game.

No one is sleeping on her. She isn't good.

Who is she better then in your opinion? Who does she beat?

Her toolkit wasn't better in Brawl IMO at all. She seems to only be inferior in 2 areas IMO. Her missle game is far worse because they don't land cancel, and he ledge game is worse due to ledge mechanics.

In the new game she has several buffs. First and foremost above all else her airspeed and floati-ness (or lack there of) are WAY better (which is tremendous, considering that is the main buff that Sheik and Mario received from the last game).

Her kill power compared to the rest of the cast is significantly improved. Her charge beam (I believe) travels faster, and due to airdodging into the floor being so much more punishable it makes her landing traps with charge beam much better.

Her bombs are more useable than last game. And most importantly, having poor priority in not near as pronounced in this game. As a result one of her other primary weaknesses (garbage priority) isn't near as bad (see Sheik as evidence, she is a very low priority character in both games, in brawl that was unacceptable, in this game, its fine).

 

[Cryz]

i think bowser has a harder matchup against yoshi since he's a heavy he can be juggled easy. kirby might be able to get out of dangerous situations thanks to his multiple jumps and his weight but the downside is that he can be killed earlier.

 

[HeroMystic]

i still dunno if i would call her bottom 5.
but i dunno even these so called bottom 5 character have geen getting results in tourny so maybe it aint so bad.

I don't want to call her bottom 5 because I really like playing as her (maybe a little less than Mario, which says a lot because I have an extremely difficult time switching from Mario to someone else otherwise), but relative to the cast, there's just a lot of characters better than her.

The question you have to ask when placing characters on a tier list is in terms of reliability and consistency. Does Samus have good match-ups? Is Samus a reliable character to use in a tournament setting? Can she consistently hit top 8? Those questions have to be taken into account when looking at a list.

Here's the thing: This doesn't mean she can't win. Chozox shows she can, but you're making it much more difficult on yourself as a player when you use any low tier character.

 

[Cryz]

well same with Kirby, MikeKirby has shown that he could do quite nicely in tournament with him

We keep saying a character is bottom tier but that character hasn't been played enough, we didn't see him in tournament much and we haven't seen the full potential yet. it's the case for characters like Samus, Kirby, Meta Knight, JigglyPuff, Bowser Jr and others

 

[Antonykun]

This "My character isn't Bottom 5" BS is starting to annoy me. We already established that being bottom 5 doesn't matter so then why are people arguing about what flavor on not as strong so and so is.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't want to call her bottom 5 because I really like playing as her (maybe a little less than Mario, which says a lot because I have an extremely difficult time switching from Mario to someone else otherwise), but relative to the cast, there's just a lot of characters better than her.

The question you have to ask when placing characters on a tier list is in terms of reliability and consistency. Does Samus have good match-ups? Is Samus a reliable character to use in a tournament setting? Can she consistently hit top 8? Those questions have to be taken into account when looking at a list.

Here's the thing: This doesn't mean she can't win. Chozox shows she can, but you're making it much more difficult on yourself as a player when you use any low tier character.

lol im not a meta denier don't worry.
If shes low teir ill yeild but so far all we got is theory craft. i should start saving some money to go to tournys outside of canada.
there is just so many undeveloped characters it can just seems awkward that with some characters people are some how saying secret top 20 when they yeild absolutely no regional tourny results. like peach.

i just see double standards at some points, not saying theory craft is bad its not. But but so far it looks to be 100% that are so called low tiers are not actually low. like luigi was at some point. and metaknight ect.

@ Antonykun T.T sorry man.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ahh, Samus probably beats Luigi. There's one I feel decent about saying. Charge shot beats out fireballs on reaction, Z-Air gives him spacing hell, she doesn't need to ever be close enough for a grab. Ever.

I was thinking about this too, and honestly I'm not sure. The Samus boards doesn't have any information on that MU (There's one post that says 60:40 Luigi's favor and it hasn't been disputed nor addressed), but I can see Samus giving Luigi some trouble, but once Luigi can rack up damage fast and he can Cyclone gimp Samus off-stage, which makes recovering low extremely difficult.

There's a few Luigi mains at the weekly I go to, so I'll test that out then.

 

[Ffamran]

Literally no one. Her closest even match is against Rosalina and that's still in her favor because Luma tanking shots.

If only Ridley was in the game.

Oh wait, I forgot that Ganondorf beats Zelda and I believe has a favorable matchup against Link and Toon Link. Then again, we're dealing with a fighting game and a competent Ganondorf instead of the idiocracy and obvious hero must win (eventually) in Zelda.

I have no idea how the developers thought Kirby, Zelda, and Samus were the best. In doubles, sure Zelda's got that, but I don't know about Kirby and Samus doesn't have the threat of when and where Zelda will be with Farore's Wind or hell, a setup for a lightning kick. Yeah, let's give Zelda three sweet spot aerials which is asinine when you consider her sour spots are horrible and the precision required to use her moves - at least Marth/Lucina has a sword and actual aerials -, make Samus's ground game fairly decent and hit high when she's tall as hell, and Kirby... What did they do to Kirby?

In free-for-all, it's going to be chaotic and even the best players won't be able to manage everything so balance on that isn't as important as doubles or 1v1 in both competitive and for fun matches.

 

[NairWizard]

This "My character isn't Bottom 5" BS is starting to annoy me. We already established that being bottom 5 doesn't matter so then why are people arguing about what flavor on not as strong so and so is.

What relevance does "bottom 5" have anyway? Tier gaps matter more than tier positions. "Bottom tier" in this game very likely contains more than just 5 characters. Let's just talk about Bottom 10-15 as one tier.

...Except for Zelda. Hyrule Tier must still exist.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If only Ridley was in the game.

Oh wait, I forgot that Ganondorf beats Zelda and I believe has a favorable matchup against Link and Toon Link. Then again, we're dealing with a fighting game and a competent Ganondorf instead of the idiocracy and obvious hero must win (eventually) in Zelda.

I have no idea how the developers thought Kirby, Zelda, and Samus were the best. In doubles, sure Zelda's got that, but I don't know about Kirby and Samus doesn't have the threat of when and where Zelda will be with Farore's Wind or hell, a setup for a lightning kick. Yeah, let's give Zelda three sweet spot aerials which is asinine when you consider her sour spots are horrible and the precision required to use her moves - at least Marth/Lucina has a sword and actual aerials -, make Samus's ground game fairly decent and hit high when she's tall as hell, and Kirby... What did they do to Kirby?

In free-for-all, it's going to be chaotic and even the best players won't be able to manage everything so balance on that isn't as important as doubles or 1v1 in both competitive and for fun matches.

there was a very firm belief that these character were legit meta breaking but got a nerf on them somewhere along the line.

 

[Locke 06]

I was thinking about this too, and honestly I'm not sure. The Samus boards doesn't have any information on that MU (There's one post that says 60:40 Luigi's favor and it hasn't been disputed nor addressed), but I can see Samus giving Luigi some trouble, but once Luigi can rack up damage fast and he can Cyclone gimp Samus off-stage, which makes recovering low extremely difficult.

There's a few Luigi mains at the weekly I go to, so I'll test that out then.

Yeah, I didn't remember seeing much on the MU in the Samus boards. The reason I thought of it is because I can give my Luigi friend quite a bit of trouble with Samus. It might apply to Mario too, but I know even less about that MU.

Something I haven't tried yet, because I haven't played Samus in a while, is bomb gimping his cyclone recovery. Worth a shot when you test out the matchup. Samus gimps Luigi quite well even without it, but it would take out the option of going low.


Edit: So far, at the bottom, I have Samus, Zelda, Bowser, Dedede in no order. At least it's a start.

Edit harder: No customs, because I don't know enough about the customs to make any sort of judgement.

 

[HeroMystic]

Tier gaps matter more than tier positions.

Pretty much this. In a decently balanced fighting game, everyone has their weakest link. Doesn't mean they can't put in some work. It's been shown time and time again in Street Fighter, Blazblue, etc.

Smash has had some pretty terrible balance as a whole, and this is the first time we've had something that can be considered respectable, so perspectives will need time to adjust.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What relevance does "bottom 5" have anyway? Tier gaps matter more than tier positions. "Bottom tier" in this game very likely contains more than just 5 characters. Let's just talk about Bottom 10-15 as one tier.

...Except for Zelda. Hyrule Tier must still exist.

Bottom 5 in itself doesn't tell you much, it implies.

 

[Ffamran]

there was a very firm belief that these character were legit meta breaking but got a nerf on them somewhere along the line.

Did we ever get to see them before they were "fixed". I can only remember Kirby's U-throw being mentioned as seen and considered broken. I don't remember anything about Samus or Zelda. If anything, the only reason why I think the developers think Zelda's OP is because of her lightning kicks and holy hell are they wrong. That's like thinking the Death spell was broken in the Final Fantasy games and Death has like what? A 1% activation rate?

The sheer precision required and adding lag makes characters like Zelda, Marth, Lucina, Meta Knight, and Samus difficult to use. Zelda missing any of her moves means a punish and some of her moves like Side Smash and Up Smash whiff by themselves for no reason, Meta Knight's hitboxes are still FUBAR'd, and the rewards Marth gets are risky. Meanwhile, you have characters like Sheik, Diddy Kong, Fox, Luigi, MarioMario, Pikachu, Sonic, and Captain Falcon who are relatively much, much safer because they have little ending lag, hit really fast, and/or hit hard.

 

[Timbers]

This "My character isn't Bottom 5" BS is starting to annoy me. We already established that being bottom 5 doesn't matter so then why are people arguing about what flavor on not as strong so and so is.

For people that are looking for a fully fleshed out tier list somewhere down the line, approaching the "worst" characters in the game may be the next best bet. Top 5 (maybe even top 10) has a rather strong consensus, yet the middle of this theoretical tier list is a jumbled mix of ~35 characters and nobody knows where to place them. It may be best to tie up both ends of "best" and "worst" before making our way into the middle.

I agree that there's no huge benefit to talking about the perceived worst in the game, but this thread is for all character impressions, not just "viable characters ONLY" discussion.

Slightly off topic, but I'm also of the belief that it will be inaccurate to place each and every character in a numeric spot. The roster is huge, and everyone seems to agree that this Smash iteration has been balanced quite a bit better than previous titles. It's likely that several characters should fall into the same positions of viability, and trying to place each character 1-51 becomes an arbitrary task. It may be better to give several characters a shared spot on these perceived tier lists as character MUs become more than theorycraft.

 

[Nobie]

This Bowser vs. Kirby debate seems kind of bizarre to me, because it's like people are arguing about bits and pieces of the characters as if they represent the whole of what comprises them. As @ Amazing Ampharos has mentioned in reference to Dedede though, sometimes what's on paper doesn't tell the whole story. Bowser obviously has a worse disadvantaged state than Kirby because Kirby is one of those characters designed to avoid disadvantaged states through multiple jumps, floatiness, and low lag on aerials. Where Kirby suffers is in neutral, where his short range is a serious issue (though not impossible to overcome), while Bowser's neutral is actually pretty good in that he has range and enough power to make people wary about trying to just overwhelm him.

Though I don't like to emphasize the top characters too much as I think a tier list should be more of a matchup chart than anything else, I think one way to begin to determine how characters rank is to ask the following question: if you had a choice between character X and character Y to fight the top 5-10 best characters in the game, who would you rather take? In this case, it'd be Kirby or Bowser against Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Pikachu, Rosalina, etc. etc.

 

[Ulevo]

If her Up-B was actually a kill move (to top off it being easy to fall out of, even in those 1 in a 100 'roofie set ups' she requires to get it to kill), Samus would be pretty good.

Nah, I still think she'd be terrible.

Her projectile game is really bad. Uncharged Shot, Homing Missle and Super Missle are all easy to PS or parry with attacks, and come out really slow, leaving her vulnerable at mid range against many characters. Her roll is terrible, slow and easily punished, giving her problems retreating. Her Jab doesn't link properly. She has a very punishable tether grab. Her combo game is very lackluster. One of her only redeeming moves, her Up B, is heavily punished on whiff. Her mobility is low. She has no reliable kill set ups. Her bombs don't detonate on contact, but by a timer, making them easily to just ignore. Her normals are okay.

If anyone sincerely believe Samus is not bottom five, then here's a challenge for you: give me five characters that are worse than Samus.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, I didn't remember seeing much on the MU in the Samus boards. The reason I thought of it is because I can give my Luigi friend quite a bit of trouble with Samus. It might apply to Mario too, but I know even less about that MU.

Something I haven't tried yet, because I haven't played Samus in a while, is bomb gimping his cyclone recovery. Worth a shot when you test out the matchup. Samus gimps Luigi quite well even without it, but it would take out the option of going low.

I'm about 95% certain Mario beats Samus, and certainly better than Luigi can. His aerial speed is a problem for Samus and fireballs clanks missiles, and the trajectory combined with FLUDD are effective in beating her zoning tactics. She still has charged shot and Zair on her side and Screw Attack is wonderful vs Mario but otherwise he's very strong against her.

 

[Shaya]

Talking about MK.

Roofios with Side-B. My drill is literally piercing the heavens.

 

[HeroMystic]

Her bombs don't detonate on contact, but by a timer, making them easily to just ignore.

To note, bombs blow up on contact if the opponent has an active hitbox. It's still decent for stage control. Also bomb jumping helps her horizontal recovery as well.

 

[Conda]

To note, bombs blow up on contact if the opponent has an active hitbox. It's still decent for stage control. Also bomb jumping helps her horizontal recovery as well.

Bomb jumping does effectively nothing in this game, and makes you unsafe while kind-of-stalling and that's it.

When recovering, Samus is only going to want to use down B for making herself less predictable movement-wise as it lets her change direction quickly, and that's it. You want to get in range to tether asap or Up B. There's not much else you should be doing as Samus when recovering as anything other than these 2 things make her unsafe and easy to kill outright (trying to bomb jump is going to lock you in vulnerable animations that do nothing to help you at all), not to mention ridden with endlag (using missiles offstage is a good way to make recovering harder).

 

[Nobie]

What is the recovery time on Jab 1 for Samus? Is it feasible at all to follow Jab 1 with things like charge shot or screw attack as a mixup?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, but his horizontal hurtbox is larger, which matters when you have aerials like Pikachu's SH d-air. His wings and tail aren't fully invincible.


--

On the subject of Meta Knight Tornado... so one thing that I think makes Meta Knight really good in this game is how Tornado works equally well regardless of weight of opposing character. You won't have guys like Pikachu popping out any more--that's pretty great, and I think it gives MK an automatic advantage against most light and mid-weight characters, because Tornado does immense damage. Being able to do 20% just because your opponent airdodged is no joke. When an opponent is recovering high like Diddy with side-b you have a free Tornado--I can't recount how many times tournament-level Sheiks have bouncing fished toward the stage just to get caught by a Tornado during endlag.

Meta Knight destroys most of the cast. Not joking. Most people are still playing him as though he's Brawl Meta Knight, with air camping and tilts and trying to land gimps with d-air. Once you get used to playing the new defensive MK, he's a whole different animal.

At this point I think I would put him in High Tier, but Top Tier isn't out of scope for him.

--

I think that with customs on most of the heavies beat Pikachu. Charizard, Bowser, Ike, Donkey Kong . . . I wouldn't feel comfortable playing as Pikachu against any of them with their new tools. Pikachu is in that weight range where he needs to have full followups on his combos in order to win against characters who can survive to high rage. Since heavies all get new escape options like Bowser with dash klaw, Pikachu's followup game is substantially reduced (though not eliminated). It's a lot harder to hit a DK when he has the threat of Kong Cyclone on the table, or a lot harder to QA past a Charizard who has Dragon Rush to catch your landing.

Because of this, I think that in the customs-on metagame Pikachu is no longer Top Tier; he may be somewhere in High Tier (perhaps at the bottom of it), or Upper Mid, but definitely doesn't remain the best character in the game with customs.

As my secondary for customs I've decided to go with Mii Gunner, a character whom I believe to be better than Mii Brawler, and also an easy Top/High Tier based on my observations so far. I am working on my Gunner; I have some problems landing KOs, but that's a personal limitation, not a limitation of the character, and one that I will overcome in future tournaments. I think that this character has all the tools necessary to be top 5, no less efficient than Sheik or Diddy.

Not to be a hipster but I promoted Tornado as a great move before you considered it cool. I mean seriously, I definitely was telling people to do D-throw -> Tornado for like 30% back in the 3DS era. =P

And even factoring that, I'm not saying he isn't a pretty solid character with a lot going for him. But he does have legitimate problems very easily scoring KOs without edgeguards (requires somewhat specific setups), and while he still has a decent neutral, he actually does a poor job of walling in this game except against maybe the shortest ranged characters.

 

[HeroMystic]

Bomb jumping does effectively nothing in this game, and makes you unsafe while kind-of-stalling and that's it.

When recovering, Samus is only going to want to use down B for making herself less predictable movement-wise as it lets her change direction quickly, and that's it. You want to get in range to tether asap or Up B. There's not much else you should be doing as Samus when recovering as anything other than these 2 things make her unsafe and easy to kill outright (trying to bomb jump is going to lock you in vulnerable animations that do nothing to help you at all), not to mention ridden with endlag (using missiles offstage is a good way to make recovering harder).

The "kind of stalling" was what I was trying to get across. The ability to weave back while retaining your elevation makes it somewhat cute to use. Otherwise I do fully agree with you.

 

[Ulevo]

What is the recovery time on Jab 1 for Samus? Is it feasible at all to follow Jab 1 with things like charge shot or screw attack as a mixup?

The best Samus I've watched is Xyro, and I've seen him use mixups, but nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Nobie]

The best Samus I've watched is Xyro, and I've seen him use mixups, but nothing is guaranteed.

I feel like that might be the actual intent behind the jab combo's flawed follow-up, that Samus should have very little guaranteed but a lot of ways to mix things up. This might all be an attempt to compensate for the perceived power of the Charge Shot, especially given the way air dodging into the ground works now.

 

[Ulevo]

In hindsight, I find it hilarious that Sakurai mentioned during the promotional tournament that Samus was looking to be the best character in the game.

 

[warionumbah2]

But he does have legitimate problems very easily scoring KOs without edgeguards (requires somewhat specific setups)

If you got problems landing kill setups with MK its more on you the player than MK. Mario and Luigi are hard to land SL on but all i needed to do was pull back after the first strike connects.

I think that's why people drop him, cause they struggle with the precise combo's/kill setups.

Mach Tornado is indeed insane it does 25%(maybe more) against Bowser Jr due to bonus damage xD. As if the MU wasn't easy already.

Ganondorf is hard to kill though, unless he recovers low or he's at 150%. Seriously everytime i challenge Ganondorfs Side B off stage he just grabs me...

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight is a character that could easily be high tier or better with very small changes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you got problems landing kill setups with MK its more on you the player than MK. Mario and Luigi are hard to land SL on but all i needed to do was pull back after the first strike connects.

I think that's why people drop him, cause they struggle with the precise combo's/kill setups.

Mach Tornado is indeed insane it does 25%(maybe more) against Bowser Jr due to bonus damage xD. As if the MU wasn't easy already.

Ganondorf is hard to kill though, unless he recovers low or he's at 150%. Seriously everytime i challenge Ganondorfs Side B off stage he just grabs me...

Some of it depends on MK catching you at really specific percents or DIing a certain way from what I've observed. This isn't to say he doesn't have strong KO options (while he has low horizontal air speed, his deep edgeguards are still strong too), just most of them are conditional in some way.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nah, I still think she'd be terrible.

Her projectile game is really bad. Uncharged Shot, Homing Missle and Super Missle are all easy to PS or parry with attacks, and come out really slow, leaving her vulnerable at mid range against many characters. Her roll is terrible, slow and easily punished, giving her problems retreating. Her Jab doesn't link properly. She has a very punishable tether grab. Her combo game is very lackluster. One of her only redeeming moves, her Up B, is heavily punished on whiff. Her mobility is low. She has no reliable kill set ups. Her bombs don't detonate on contact, but by a timer, making them easily to just ignore. Her normals are okay.

If anyone sincerely believe Samus is not bottom five, then here's a challenge for you: give me five characters that are worse than Samus.

This is a stupid question. name me 5 worse than -insert character- is useless expecially since its going to go nowhere factualy and will only be opinion based. your just asking for an argument.