Character Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

Some of it depends on MK catching you at really specific percents or DIing a certain way from what I've observed. This isn't to say he doesn't have strong KO options (while he has low horizontal air speed, his deep edgeguards are still strong too), just most of them are conditional in some way.

I think it is a character dependent thing. Certain characters will be more reliably killed than others from his combos, but I don't think anyone has gone and really done the testing to figure out who/what/when.

This is a stupid question. name me 5 worse than -insert character- is useless expecially since its going to go nowhere factualy and will only be opinion based. your just asking for an argument.

First of all, it was a statement, not a question. Secondly, this entire thread is mostly opinion based. You telling me my comments and others replies are opinion based is redundant and essentially invalidates conversation. Thirdly, yes, I am inviting an argument. It starts discussion, and that's how you make progress.

Like. If you're going to call me out, at least run a spell check.

 

[Emblem Lord]

people should stop catching feelings over a collection of data, voice clips and animations being called bottom tier.

Just saiyan

 

[Road Death Wheel]

First of all, it was a statement, not a question. Secondly, this entire thread is mostly opinion based. You telling me my comments and others replies are opinion based is redundant and essentially invalidates conversation. Thirdly, yes, I am inviting an argument. It starts discussion, and that's how you make progress.

Like. If you're going to call me out, at least run a spell check.

Discussion and arguments are not the same thing.

Next your asking for data on undeveloped characters. We can say all we want about zelda but things will remain that she has more data tourny wise than half the cast.

I was not calling you out, im saying theory craft is just that theorys, all conculsion made only off of paperwork were basically wrong in one way or another.

Nothing beats actual gameplay proof. Now considering that we have all these characters with almost no tourny data placed in area's above mid tier. I think it would be more productive to understand why these character are not being used when have such great stats? Seriously there was no yoshi in top 13 at apex, why is he not being used if hes so good? Actually how many times has yoshi even been in a top 8 for that matter?

I also just for futher refference I noticed i may have unintentionally insulted your intelligence with the whole "This is stupid" just keep in mind i was not calling you stupid k?


@ Emblem Lord Smash is love Smash is life.

 

[HeroMystic]

people should stop catching feelings over a collection of data, voice clips and animations being called bottom tier.

Just saiyan

While I agree, it's also the fact that people (especially competitive players) put a lot of time and effort into their mains and they don't want their character to be invalidated by the public because it also feels like it invalidates their efforts. In other words, tiers are srz busniz. I think we've all been there.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

While I agree, it's also the fact that people (especially competitive players) put a lot of time and effort into their mains and they don't want their character to be invalidated by the public because it also feels like it invalidates their efforts. In other words, tiers are srz busniz. I think we've all been there.

I personally think its more of a lingering hope that this game wont end up like melee with only 7 character being used.

 

[Ulevo]

Discussion and arguments are not the same thing.

Next your asking for data on undeveloped characters. We can say all we want about zelda but things will remain that she has more data tourny wise than half the cast.

I was not calling you out, im saying theory craft is just that theorys, all conculsion made only off of paperwork were basically wrong in one way or another.

Nothing beats actual gameplay proof. Now considering that we have all these characters with almost no tourny data placed in area's above mid tier. I think it would be more productive to understand why these character are not being used when have such great stats? Seriously there was no yoshi in top 13 at apex, why is he not being used if hes so good? Actually how many times has yoshi even been in a top 8 for that matter?

I also just for futher refference I noticed i may have unintentionally insulted your intelligence with the whole "This is stupid" just keep in mind i was not calling you stupid k?


@ Emblem Lord Smash is love Smash is life.

I am in this instance using argument as a synonym for discussion. I thought that was obvious through the context I was using it.

All I'm seeing here is that you have a problem with people labeling theories as facts. Okay, fine. But I mean, it should be implied that the discussions here are largely theorized, meant to be challenged by well constructed arguments either with more solid theorycraft or with tournament results.

I don't need "data", whatever you're implying that should mean, to say that Samus is bad. I have the frame data on her moves, I understand how they work, and I can logically analyze her flaws as a character. She has a lot of major weaknesses, and it isn't a question of whether or not she's a bad character, but how bad she is. I understand some characters are under represented for different reasons, but it is not difficult to see why Samus is failing to place well.

I personally think its more of a lingering hope that this game wont end up like melee with only 7 character being used.

I think it is obvious at this point that this is not the case.

people should stop catching feelings over a collection of data, voice clips and animations being called bottom tier.

Just saiyan

You're not a saiyan.

 

[Smog Frog]

In hindsight, I find it hilarious that Sakurai mentioned during the promotional tournament that Samus was looking to be the best character in the game.

then you consider that the promo tournament was made with an unfinalized version of the game, where samus very well could have been the best in the game.

 

[Lavani]

In hindsight, I find it hilarious that Sakurai mentioned during the promotional tournament that Samus was looking to be the best character in the game.

The E3 build was a very different build.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I am in this instance using argument as a synonym for discussion. I thought that was obvious through the context I was using it.

All I'm seeing here is that you have a problem with people labeling theories as facts. Okay, fine. But I mean, it should be implied that the discussions here are largely theorized, meant to be challenged by well constructed arguments either with more solid theorycraft or with tournament results.

I don't need "data", whatever you're implying that should mean, to say that Samus is bad. I have the frame data on her moves, I understand how they work, and I can logically analyze her flaws as a character. She has a lot of major weaknesses, and it isn't a question of whether or not she's a bad character, but how bad she is. I understand some characters are under represented for different reasons, but it is not difficult to see why Samus is failing to place well.

lol technically speaking most samuss out there do place well. they just don't place often as in there never in the tourny in the first place. so its more of an underusage thing if i remember correctly. (and that does mean something people usually flock away when somthings wrong and i definitly look at samus with a critical eye.) please correct by all means if you got some data where more were in tourny though.

Also im not saying data is end all either but its important in its own right. like before boss used luigi. Why was he considered garbage? Cuz it was not hard to see where he was bad. But it takes a good player to show where he is good. Nairo even showed that zelda, the character considered the absolute worse in game, still needs to be respected.

All in all im just saying its not always black or white. Sorry for derailing the thread if this was not relevent folks.

 

[Ulevo]

The E3 build was a very different build.

I realize it was very different, but that doesn't change the irony. We went from Sakurai's bold statement to discussing Samus as a contender for worst character in the game. Anyway.

lol technically speaking most samuss out there do place well. they just don't place often as in there never in the tourny in the first place. so its more of an underusage thing if i remember correctly. (and that does mean something people usually flock away when somthings wrong and i definitly look at samus with a critical eye.) please correct by all means if you got some data where more were in tourny though.

Also im not saying data is end all either but its important in its own right. like before boss used luigi. Why was he considered garbage? Cuz it was not hard to see where he was bad. But it takes a good player to show where he is good. Nairo even showed that zelda, the character considered the absolute worse in game, still needs to be respected.

All in all im just saying its not always black or white. Sorry for derailing the thread if this was not relevent folks.

I'm not aware of how Samus players place, since I never see any. That aside, I don't believe most people legitimately thought Luigi was bad. Luigi was just amidst the fog of character potential uncertainty because Smash WU is still pretty new. That's quite different, because players can actually acknowledge that Samus is bad, and why she's bad.

Also, I still don't respect Zelda.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I realize it was very different, but that doesn't change the irony. We went from Sakurai's bold statement to discussing Samus as a contender for worst character in the game. Anyway.



I'm not aware of how Samus players place, since I never see any. That aside, I don't believe most people legitimately thought Luigi was bad. Luigi was just amidst the fog of character potential uncertainty because Smash WU is still pretty new. That's quite different, because players can actually acknowledge that Samus is bad, and why she's bad.

Also, I still don't respect Zelda.

Really? the luigi boom happened like a month and a half ago. before that it was common to see plebian tier lists with luigi at bottom 5.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi didn't really see much limelight until the removal of vectoring. Before then he was considered "meh" at best.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

people should stop catching feelings over a collection of data, voice clips and animations being called bottom tier.

Just saiyan

Marth sucks.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Marth sucks.

Smooth Criminal

"The bait is strong with this one."

 

[Emblem Lord]

bottom tiers.

It happens.

How do you think i felt when i was 15 and i had to accept Roy was worthless in melee.

But...that moment was a baptism for me.

Love for a character can motivate you but it can also be the very thing that chains you down and limits your growth as a player and student of the game.

Take everything in. Love the game and try to have love and appreciation for every character and what they bring to the table, but strive to remain objective in order to achieve a greater unbiased understanding of the game.

Everyone...Engrave my words into your minds and hearts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Re: Samus @ E3, I seem to recall some of the players giving their impressions afterward and saying they found nothing of note in Samus even then. That said I think they had all of maybe a day to practice so it's possible they missed something. Or maybe Nintendo really does think that Charge Shot is that big a deal. I'm not sure, this is all speculation.

I enjoy using her but I've never been able to get the hang of SH zairs, especially on short characters.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

lol technically speaking most samuss out there do place well. they just don't place often as in there never in the tourny in the first place. so its more of an underusage thing if i remember correctly. (and that does mean something people usually flock away when somthings wrong and i definitly look at samus with a critical eye.) please correct by all means if you got some data where more were in tourny though.

Also im not saying data is end all either but its important in its own right. like before boss used luigi. Why was he considered garbage? Cuz it was not hard to see where he was bad. But it takes a good player to show where he is good. Nairo even showed that zelda, the character considered the absolute worse in game, still needs to be respected.

All in all im just saying its not always black or white. Sorry for derailing the thread if this was not relevent folks.

Luigi also got buffed...don't forget.
Same deal with Olimars Pikmin between 3ds and Wii U upon release showing a very different Olimar.
MK was also buffed. There were characters written of early...but who also got buffed early into the games lifespan so those early criticisms are honestly for a different environment.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth sucks.

Smooth Criminal

no more then the penguin king bruh

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Luigi also got buffed...don't forget.
Same deal with Olimars Pikmin between 3ds and Wii U upon release showing a very different Olimar.
MK was also buffed. There were characters written of early...but who also got buffed early into the games lifespan so those early criticisms are honestly for a different environment.

This is also very true.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

What's the consensus on Bowser Jr? It's been a while since I played the game, but I'm curious. I always felt like he had some easy combos ( the Up Air. )

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What's the consensus on Bowser Jr? It's been a while since I played the game, but I'm curious. I always felt like he had some easy combos ( the Up Air. )

some people say hes bad. dunno bout it though. he has so little data.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

some people say hes bad. dunno bout it though. he has so little data.

I do recall that a lot of good things I got off against opponents seemed to be because it caught them offguard.
Which is what people fear, I think; once everyone knows his shenanigans, he won't have much left.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I do recall that a lot of good things I got off against opponents seemed to be because it caught them offguard.
Which is what people fear, I think; once everyone knows his shenanigans, he won't have much left.

having known tricks does not end a character. its predictable behaviour.

 

[Ffamran]

bottom tiers.

It happens.

How do you think i felt when i was 15 and i had to accept Roy was worthless in melee.

But...that moment was a baptism for me.

Love for a character can motivate you but it can also be the very thing that chains you down and limits your growth as a player and student of the game.

Take everything in. Love the game and try to have love and appreciation for every character and what they bring to the table, but strive to remain objective in order to achieve a greater unbiased understanding of the game.

Everyone...Engrave my words into your minds and hearts.

That being said, it's motivating to see someone passionate trying to figure out everything about their character and sometimes that pays off and others, it doesn't. The dedicated players showed what Melee Jigglypuff and Brawl Sonic could do. Sure, they probably won't ever show the world that Sonic's number 1 or Jigglypuff is better than Melee Fox, but they showed us what those low tiers really are. Granted, it takes a lot of time and dedication, especially if it's a really technical character like Peach, Shulk, or Pac-Man.

As it stands, the bottom 5 are probably miles better than the bottom 5 of 64, Melee, and Brawl because of how this game was designed, the engine benefitting everyone more so than in previous games, and that it was balanced more and checked more than previous games. Hell, right now, a good player like say, Ally, could use Mario who people say is around mid-tier and still stand a chance against Zero's Diddy. Will Ally win? Maybe not, but it's not like seeing Mario get wrecked by Fox in Melee or watching Brawl Ganondorf do anything. That character design was a sin, dammit. No king of evil should feel helpless with that mutton chop and corn rows.

At the same time, the game's young and although there are tons more resources than in previous games where some player, let's say Joyce, is the best 64 Captain Falcon player in the world, but nobody knows. She might be stuck in Oregon slamming fools left and right while everyone thought Kirby was the best. The internet and the ability to stream and record gameplay wasn't there or wasn't sophisticated yet, but now it is. We can see how Luigi does, how Ike does, and how Mega Man does. Still, people will jump the gun. Remember how people cried that ZSS, Rosalina, Sheik, and now Diddy are OP? That was like what? 5 months into the game's life? I don't know about back then, but I think people didn't scream Fox was OP in Melee until a long time in comparison.

That leaves a lot of characters MIA because nobody plays them, nobody knows who plays them, and nobody is skilled enough yet to show people what they can do. Zero's Diddy is great, but imagine 3 years later. The amount of practice and MU experience would make his Diddy terrifying. That goes for any character, especially the current contenders for top 15. You thought you saw an awesome Greninja? Nah, wait a couple more years and that Greninja would make Ryu Hayabusa proud. Right now, the young water-frog has much to learn.

 

[TriTails]

Ahh, Samus probably beats Luigi. There's one I feel decent about saying. Charge shot beats out fireballs on reaction, Z-Air gives him spacing hell, she doesn't need to ever be close enough for a grab. Ever.

Funny, a member in Luigi boards said it was medium advantage for Luigi, here what he has to say:
http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-match-up-discussion-thread.382918/page-2#post-18295318

Credit to @Yonder for posting that.

Samus hates Fireballs. They can be fired at faster and safer way than Missiles can, and cancels out uncharged Charge Shot. F-air chaingrab doesn't work (Surprisingly...), but Luigi still combos Samus hard (Especially if she DI towards Luigi)..

Pretty much the things Luigi has to respect is probably only Charge Shot and Z-air... Even Cyclone can plow through Missiles. Though, I'd like confirmation from Samus mains.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Funny, a member in Luigi boards said it was medium advantage for Luigi, here what he has to say:
http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-match-up-discussion-thread.382918/page-2#post-18295318

Credit to @Yonder for posting that.

Samus hates Fireballs. They can be fired at faster and safer way than Missiles can, and cancels out uncharged Charge Shot. F-air chaingrab doesn't work (Surprisingly...), but Luigi still combos Samus hard (Especially if she DI towards Luigi)..

Pretty much the things Luigi has to respect is probably only Charge Shot and Z-air... Even Cyclone can plow through Missiles. Though, I'd like confirmation from Samus mains.

super missles clank.

 

[Morbi]

That being said, it's motivating to see someone passionate trying to figure out everything about their character and sometimes that pays off and others, it doesn't. The dedicated players showed what Melee Jigglypuff and Brawl Sonic could do. Sure, they probably won't ever show the world that Sonic's number 1 or Jigglypuff is better than Melee Fox, but they showed us what those low tiers really are. Granted, it takes a lot of time and dedication, especially if it's a really technical character like Peach, Shulk, or Pac-Man.

As it stands, the bottom 5 are probably miles better than the bottom 5 of 64, Melee, and Brawl because of how this game was designed, the engine benefitting everyone more so than in previous games, and that it was balanced more and checked more than previous games. Hell, right now, a good player like say, Ally, could use Mario who people say is around mid-tier and still stand a chance against Zero's Diddy. Will Ally win? Maybe not, but it's not like seeing Mario get wrecked by Fox in Melee or watching Brawl Ganondorf do anything. That character design was a sin, dammit. No king of evil should feel helpless with that mutton chop and corn rows.

At the same time, the game's young and although there are tons more resources than in previous games where some player, let's say Joyce, is the best 64 Captain Falcon player in the world, but nobody knows. She might be stuck in Oregon slamming fools left and right while everyone thought Kirby was the best. The internet and the ability to stream and record gameplay wasn't there or wasn't sophisticated yet, but now it is. We can see how Luigi does, how Ike does, and how Mega Man does. Still, people will jump the gun. Remember how people cried that ZSS, Rosalina, Sheik, and now Diddy are OP? That was like what? 5 months into the game's life? I don't know about back then, but I think people didn't scream Fox was OP in Melee until a long time in comparison.

That leaves a lot of characters MIA because nobody plays them, nobody knows who plays them, and nobody is skilled enough yet to show people what they can do. Zero's Diddy is great, but imagine 3 years later. The amount of practice and MU experience would make his Diddy terrifying. That goes for any character, especially the current contenders for top 15. You thought you saw an awesome Greninja? Nah, wait a couple more years and that Greninja would make Ryu Hayabusa proud. Right now, the young water-frog has much to learn.

In the same vein as that I would say that a lot of times match-up experience can make low-tier characters somewhat viable. If the player is unfamiliar with the character, they do not know the characters tools, and they have no one to practice against. Honestly, sometimes I feel as though I win a lot of my FG matches because no one has to deal with a Falco and when they do, they just expect me to run away and laser camp.

 

[TriTails]

super missles clank.

I guess I'll test it out later.

But the point is, Fireballs clanks with Missiles. Samus hates Fireballs because she has a lot of trouble avoiding them, and Z-air I do believe has end lag and can be baited.

Luigi also beats Robin IMO.

 

[Kofu]

Marth sucks.

Smooth Criminal

no more then the penguin king bruh

Hero-King vs. Penguin King MM! Who will win? or ? Place your bets now!

Erm…

What's the general concensus on Ness now? Is he still a solid threat, or has he gone down a little? He still has an excellent grab game, great aerials, and pressure with at least two of his specials. He isn't especially mobile when compared to most of the top, though, and struggles to recover when forced to use his Up-B.

He may not have done especially well at Apex in singles, but he did come in second in teams (as did Villager), which has to account for something.

 

[Makorel]

In the same vein as that I would say that a lot of times match-up experience can make low-tier characters somewhat viable. If the player is unfamiliar with the character, they do not know the characters tools, and they have no one to practice against. Honestly, sometimes I feel as though I win a lot of my FG matches because no one has to deal with a Falco and when they do, they just expect me to run away and laser camp.

But you can't really bank on that can you? If a character that people have low MU knowledge of keeps doing well then eventually they'll get that match up knowledge, and if the character is good they'll keep doing well and if the character is bad they'll fall off in performance.

 

[Nu~]

I guess I'll test it out later.

But the point is, Fireballs clanks with Missiles. Samus hates Fireballs because she has a lot of trouble avoiding them, and Z-air I do believe has end lag and can be baited.

Luigi also beats Robin IMO.

He may beat Robin when he gets up close, but how is he getting past the arcthunder/elthunder and arc fire wall so easily?
He can't down B through it due to the multiple hits, and trying to approach from the air gets you a free lemon sword to the moustache. It doesn't help that robin's neutrals have better range overall.

 

[Morbi]

But you can't really bank on that can you? If a character that people have low MU knowledge of keeps doing well then eventually they'll get that match up knowledge, and if the character is good they'll keep doing well and if the character is bad they'll fall off in performance.

Of course, I am just saying that it is a factor that a lot of people do not really consider in favor of lower tier characters. Good fundamentals will always be more important than tiers or match-up knowledge anyways.

 

[webbedspace]

Remember how people cried that ZSS, Rosalina, Sheik, and now Diddy are OP? That was like what? 5 months into the game's life? I don't know about back then, but I think people didn't scream Fox was OP in Melee until a long time in comparison.

According to the wiki Fox wasn't universally considered better than Sheik until five years after release (although he never dropped out of top 3 throughout that time.) People predicting a Sheik revival toppling Diddy possibly have this trajectory in mind.

 

[Conda]

Good fundamentals will always be more important than tiers or match-up knowledge anyways.

Be more important in what context? If you're saying matchups don't matter in high-level national tournament play, then that's an incorrect statement. But if you're saying the above-and-beyond 'better player' at a regional will likely win, then that's likely fairly true and I'd agree. But those are two very different contexts.

When both players have very good fundamentals, then every other element comes into play - including matchups, mindgames, and the amount of high quality options their characters have (high/top tier characters have more high quality options than low/mid tier characters).

 

[TriTails]

He may beat Robin when he gets up close, but how is he getting past the arcthunder/elthunder and arc fire wall so easily?
He can't down B through it due to the multiple hits, and trying to approach from the air gets you a free lemon sword to the moustache. It doesn't help that robin's neutrals have better range overall.

How Luigi beats Robin:
1. Grab Robin = Free damage
2. Repeat a few times and there the stock goes
3. Fireballs everything but Thoron and Elwind

Yep, Fireballs cancel out Thunder, Elthunder, and force Arcthunder and Arcfire to burst. An easy MU for Luigi. He just spams Fireballs and suddenly Robin's projectiles are useless. Not to mention Robin is slower than freaking Ganon on the ground.

SH Fireballs for Arcfire BTW.

 

[Morbi]

Be more important in what context? If you're saying matchups don't matter in high-level national tournament play, then that's an incorrect statement. But if you're saying the above-and-beyond 'better player' at a regional will likely win, then that's likely fairly true and I'd agree. But those are two very different contexts.

Yes, the latter. At the highest level of play, most players, for the most part, have similar fundamentals and that is where more trivial aspects of the game become entirely relevant. I was just speaking in general.

 

[Metalex]

What's the consensus on Bowser Jr? It's been a while since I played the game, but I'm curious. I always felt like he had some easy combos ( the Up Air. )

I have also wondered about this. l think he has a lot going for him, but why do people place him so low on their potential tier lists? Is it because of lack of knowledge about Bowser Jr or is he in fact just not very good?

 

[pimpimjim]

This community is weird. I come from a community (mk/inj) where most people who are low/mid tier heroes love to downplay their characters to get props when they are successful. Seems like over here it's the opposite - everyone wants to prove their character isn't garbage

 

[Antonykun]

This community is weird. I come from a community (mk/inj) where most people who are low/mid tier heroes love to downplay their characters to get props when they are successful. Seems like over here it's the opposite - everyone wants to prove their character isn't garbage

Because we all come from a background where most chars where invalidated by like five other characters. We're just proving that they are somewhat viable n

 

[NachoOfCheese]

This community is weird. I come from a community (mk/inj) where most people who are low/mid tier heroes love to downplay their characters to get props when they are successful. Seems like over here it's the opposite - everyone wants to prove their character isn't garbage

Funny thing is, the top tier mains try to convince everyone that their characters are exploitable so that people stop crying over them :3