Character Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

The utter resaon why Luigi is 'meh' in 1.0.3 is becaus of the dang Vectoring. Does WAAAYYYYYY more harm than good.

Sure, you can:
1. Survive longer
2. Somewhat escape combos by VI away

But you can't:
1. Kill reliably. It's infuriating when you FINALLY hit his F-smash and there's the red lighting, but you did not kill them.
2. Combo
3. Increase the height of your knockback

The first two are extremely big deal.

And his F-smash and D-smash buffs, as well as FJP and F-air buffs helps him a bit on KOing and comboing. The patch was kind to Luigi.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think we can agree that developers making patches can be extremely detrimental to the game's balance, especially from a competitive perspective. I feel that they make changes based on things they think are broken, or are used commonly. A good set of examples of this are the Bowser and little Mac nerfs during the 3ds days. These two characters were not broken, but because of popularity (and perhaps developer bias) they have had their competitive viabilities severely lessened. I do hope they aren't absorbing complaints from inexperienced players who blow their horn all around the interwebs, insisting that littl Mac is the best character because he beat them in for glory.

This kind of mentality is probably why many of Zelda's tools were nerfed (and got buffs in other places).
Zelda could easily destroy casuals who did not have good defensive fundamentals, getting juggled
by the powerful and forgiving aim-wise Din's, as well as punishing any remotely bad spacing with the wide
Usmash.

Like Game & Watch, she got nerfs to her best (and potentially abusable) tools from Brawl in exchange
for some buffs to the rest of her moveset, resulting in a character that actually has to use most of the moves
at her disposal instead of relying on a select few.

 

[PND]

That's more or less how I feel. A lot of characters seem the same as their brawl counterparts. Some I feel are worse like ganon and Zelda. Some are better like Mario. A lot of characters being "better" has a lot to do with the fall of mk like pikachu and yoshi.

Ganon? Worse than Brawl?

. . .

Have you played Brawl Ganon? Have you seen his matchup spread?

 

[Antonykun]

i dunno, like ya he has some different tools. but his main objective still seems like getting in and racking damage. expecailly with his fantastic air speed to keep up juggles.

On the contrary Wario is all about defence and lingering hitboxes.Way different than the Mario bros (can we please call Mario, Luigi, Doc Mario bros? Makes more sense than plumbers)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

On the contrary Wario is all about defence and lingering hitboxes.Way different than the Mario bros (can we please call Mario, Luigi, Doc Mario bros? Makes more sense than plumbers)

ill take your word on it you actually use wario.

 

[the king of murder]

Ganon? Worse than Brawl?

. . .

Have you played Brawl Ganon? Have you seen his matchup spread?

As someone who has played both incarnations of Dorf, I agree with you. Even if I leave aside the environmental changes, that benefited us, Dorf himself isn't worse than his brawl incarnation as he hits harder and faster and has better MU spreads. The only thing that is a nerf is no AC Dair.

Maybe he meant that he is still the worst just like in Brawl, which isn't too far fetched but being the worst in this game isn't such great deal in this game as it was in Brawl.

 

[Kofu]

I do not believe G&W has the neutral tools to crack a solid defense at all. He's so unsafe on block, his grab range is microscopic, and the long commitment on his attacks often leaves him open to a stronger spatial control to score hits. I see G&W as someone who can do well if the opponent is hitting buttons since his moves are extremely good at beating other moves, but he just gets walled out by a more patient player who doesn't his many buttons. I really can't think of five characters more limited than that; it's a pretty devastating downside in my book especially for a character with substantial additional downsides anyway (like his weight and shockingly lacking power).

I can see where you're coming from and somewhat agree. He is good at making the opponent second guess their options, though (empty low jumps are a thing) and I think he can get in against most characters.

Also, about grab ranges, I'm pretty sure ROB's is the worst in the game, at least functionally, because it doesn't extend past his base. So you basically have to be on top of the opponent to grab them.

 

[Flamecircle]

Ganon? Worse than Brawl?

. . .

Have you played Brawl Ganon? Have you seen his matchup spread?

Ganon in brawl had an autocanceled Dair. Can you imagine how brutal that would be in this game? Ganon was improved purely through mechanical changes, like overall reduced damage, improved weight for heavies, and defensive options strong enough to approach through zoning with.

 

[Terotrous]

If only Ridley was in the game.

Samus vs Ridley is a 0-10 matchup because Samus just freezes helplessly when Ridley appears. =)

I have no idea how the developers thought Kirby, Zelda, and Samus were the best.

They were obviously nerfed between when he said that and the game's release. We can already tell that Kirby received several nerfs after the invitational, his UThrow certainly doesn't kill at like 90% anymore.

Really? the luigi boom happened like a month and a half ago. before that it was common to see plebian tier lists with luigi at bottom 5.

Yeah, I was thinking about that a couple days ago. There's a few characters where our opinion of them has changed drastically since release.

People we used to think were super good but we no longer do:




People we thought weren't so good but we now realize that they are:




I think a lot of this has to do with the vectoring change in 1.0.4. Lucario and Little Mac are both characters who rely on surviving to high percents (they both get unique power-ups as they take damage), and they not only lost vectoring but they also received recovery nerfs, so they are legitimately a lot worse than they used to be. I'm still of the opinion that Bowser is viable, but the more people optimize their combos the worse off he will be. Peach is weird, I mean sure she lost a few bugs in 1.0.4, but she still seems like a good character who just isn't getting results.

As for Luigi, he clearly got a huge boost from the removal of vectoring as it makes his combos more consistent. Olimar had a totally separate issue where he was basically bugged on 3DS 1.0 but they fixed it. I'm really not sure how we slept on Pika early on.

Also, obviously some characters (Ike, Shulk, etc) got significant direct buffs in 1.0.4. It was kind of obvious that they'd rise from that.

As it stands, the bottom 5 are probably miles better than the bottom 5 of 64, Melee, and Brawl because of how this game was designed

Oh, for sure. Just look at Kirby, for example. Even if he is still bottom 5, he's WAY better than he was in Melee. He still has some fundamental problems that need to be addressed, but he's no longer purely atrocious in the way that he was in Melee. He has good moves now. He just has some issues.

The one exception might be Zelda. I think Smash4 Zelda is actually the worst incarnation of Zelda. The developers clearly way overestimated the usefulness of her new DownB and the hitbox on UpB and decided everything else she had needed to be weaker.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think it depends on the character. I don't see how bowser has improved. But I do believe that Mario is significantly better as shiek. Yeah some characters lost things basically any cg character from brawl got wrecked with the new changes. I don't see how ganon has improved but I could be wrong. They're underwhelming characters in this game. But I don't think there's as many as brawl or melee.

Bowser actually has some terrible landing options rather than zero landing options with D-air and shieldbreak Down-B being a thing, not to mention him finally having a normal airdodge and normal ledge options. Firebreath can't be SDIed and punished on hit. Bowser's Dash attack, U-smash, Up-B recovery, and Dashgrab are all massively better in this game. It still sucks for him he gets countered by projectile zoning pretty hard due to his size, but Smash 4 Bowser overall has way more options than before. Bowser unlike most characters basically didn't have his damage touched in the transition either.

Just to be specific with Ganondorf, he is one of the only characters in the game that has actually received mostly damage and knockback buffs even before factoring mechanics changes like Rage (D-tilt, B-air, N-air, Flame Choke, D-smash, U-smash, and grab pummel all deal more damage in this game). Also all of his aerials have less landing lag, especially his N-air and F-air which are now very viable SH spacing tools. Losing 3 damage and an autocancel on D-air comparatively speaking is extremely minor when instead Ganon's U-smash and N-air basically picks up the slack in this game. Sure he probably benefits from ledge and spotdodge changes more than any single character in the game, but Smash 4 Ganon is strictly a lot better than Brawl Ganon.

How people claim Mario is better baffles me...when his combo game still is extremely character and percent specific, does a lot less damage, he lost Jab cancels and stalling potency on Cape, his SH aerials all hit much higher and whiff more frequently against grounded characters in this game, and his F-air, DA, and negative state are overall still bad. Small mobility buffs don't compensate at all against characters with better range and good lingering hitboxes such as Ganondorf, who used to lose about 4/6 against Mario in Brawl, but now wins the matchup at least 55/45 in this game. To be frank, Mario doesn't even do well against any of the good characters except Fox and Falcon, who he goes about even against, and then he loses a lot of random matchups across the entire tier list because his weaknesses are still pretty much the same, and his reward is overall mediocre.

Sheik is also a weaker character from Brawl (her combos in general were actually a lot better in Brawl, and Transform allowed you to ignore stale moves on command), just the main change she benefits from is ledge mechanics which was really her main fatal weakness in Brawl.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly I really don't know why we're still talking about Mario. Dude is okay. He's obviously no Zelda or Mii Swordfighter. Normals and mobility are average. Good set of specials. USmash is a good move. Ho hum.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Samus vs Ridleyitis a 0-10 matchup because Samus just freezes helplessly when Ridley appears. =)



They were obviously nerfed between when he said that and the game's release. We can already tell that Kirby received several nerfs after the invitational, his UThrow certainly doesn't kill at like 90% anymore.



Yeah, I was thinking about that a couple days ago. There's a few characters where our opinion of them has changed drastically since release.

People we used to think were super good but we no longer do:




People we thought weren't so good but we now realize that they are:




I think a lot of this has to do with the vectoring change in 1.0.4. Lucario and Little Mac are both characters who rely on surviving to high percents (they both get unique power-ups as they take damage), and they not only lost vectoring but they also received recovery nerfs, so they are legitimately a lot worse than they used to be. I'm still of the opinion that Bowser is viable, but the more people optimize their combos the worse off he will be. Peach is weird, I mean sure she lost a few bugs in 1.0.4, but she still seems like a good character who just isn't getting results.

As for Luigi, he clearly got a huge boost from the removal of vectoring as it makes his combos more consistent. Olimar had a totally separate issue where he was basically bugged on 3DS 1.0 but they fixed it. I'm really not sure how we slept on Pika early on.

Also, obviously some characters (Ike, Shulk, etc) got significant direct buffs in 1.0.4. It was kind of obvious that they'd rise from that.



Oh, for sure. Just look at Kirby, for example. Even if he is still bottom 5, he's WAY better than he was in Melee. He still has some fundamental problems that need to be addressed, but he's no longer purely atrocious in the way that he was in Melee. He has good moves now. He just has some issues.

The one exception might be Zelda. I think Smash4 Zelda is actually the worst incarnation of Zelda. The developers clearly way overestimated the usefulness of her new DownB and the hitbox on UpB and decided everything else she had needed to be weaker.

It seems like as soon as peach meets character with fast options It kind of hurts her results.

 

[Balgorxz]

I don't know..
Peach is still a solid character IMO

 

[HeroMystic]

Honestly I really don't know why we're still talking about Mario. Dude is okay. He's obviously no Zelda or Mii Swordfighter. Normals and mobility are average. Good set of specials. USmash is a good move. Ho hum.

Mobility is above average, if not outright good.

People still talk about Mario because he's relevant to the competitive scene. You can say this for any character.

 

[Saturn_]

Mobility is above average, if not outright good.

People still talk about Mario because he's relevant to the competitive scene. You can say this for any character.

Playing them both I think Luigi's slippery nature is a huge advantage over Mario, because Luigi can do sliding smashes/tilts much more easily, which can be very unpredictable. I keep forgetting to hold run for the extra second Mario needs to get into position.

 

[warionumbah2]

There's nothing average about Mario, I thought we got this all figured out way back in page 300's. Guess not.

 

[Timbers]

Playing them both I think Luigi's slippery nature is a huge advantage over Mario, because Luigi can do sliding smashes/tilts much more easily, which can be very unpredictable. I keep forgetting to hold run for the extra second Mario needs to get into position.

okay real talk though. why must the other mario bro be injected into a conversation. there's really nothing similar to their playstyles. they're not clones.

luigi is probably the better of the two but...okay, so? luigi being better than mario does not invalidate him as a character. mario is his own dynamic character. apples to oranges.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's nothing average about Mario, I thought we got this all figured out way back in page 300's. Guess not.

Yeah...this is like the pseudo Mario character discussion board.

On an unrelated note, tinkering with Meta Knight and...this character is very good. I don't know how good, but he seems VERY, VERY underrated to an extent right now. I'd like to see more of him at high level, he has definite potential.

 

[warionumbah2]

compared to like last month the way people view MK now is incredibly positive. can't say the same for kirby and ddd.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think it's because people are exploring his new options and not lamenting the old anymore. Let's face it, his metagame has changed considerably compared to Brawl but once you adapt past that....it's a totally different character.

I used to think he was not that great too even just a month ago, but the more you experiment and tinker, the more you find. Approaching characters with this mindset I think will prove to be beneficial for a lot of other people in this roster.

Dedede has always been viewed as the paragon of polar MUs but I imagine he's hella hype to play. Kirby I have no idea, honestly. He seems...alright, but I do believe he gets a lot out of customs (much like my main who gets Falco lasers AND a high priority tornado move!)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ugh its such a shame that pit does not get much out of customs. like none of them are terrible.

but i woulda liked one for the "why the hell not are u running this shtick."

 

[HeavyLobster]

compared to like last month the way people view MK now is incredibly positive. can't say the same for kirby and ddd.

D3 has some very clear limitations(worst mobility in the game, an inability to camp, and very slow moves) that keep him from being good in this game. Kirby I feel isn't so bad, though he's not high tier or anything, I don't consider him bottom 5 bad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

hmmm.

Might change my mind about Samus. Dedede has clear limitations while Samus at least can approach matches different. Dedede does one thing and he does not do it well.

Toss up between who is the worst between them imo.

But the 3 worst are definitely Samus, Dedede and G&W imo.

 

[Nu~]

Well I'm just gonna change the subject...
Instead of whose the worst, let's talk about a perceived high mid tier: R.O.B.
How do people feel about him? I personally believe that he's pretty solid. Unfortunately, he has problems with being juggled and edgeguarded due to his slow recovery. He also has generally slow aerials...but his zoning game is pretty stellar.
Gyro and laser are still effective, although ROB benefits more from an aggresive game in this iteration of smash.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Emblem Lord Well, if you're talking about bottom 3 worst characters, I think you forgot Zelda exists. I mean, at least G&W (and iirc Samus) have at least have SOME success in tournaments. Zelda doesn't seem to have any thing going for her by the sheer design of her kit, and next to no representation to prove otherwise.

EDIT: I agree though there really is no point in talking about who is the worst or one the worst characters in the game. If all characters are considered at WORST below average, and there is no real bad atm. It just seems pointless to place who are the bottom 5 because it's just pointless.

 

[David Viran]

@ Emblem Lord Well, if you're talking about bottom 3 worst characters, I think you forgot Zelda exists. I mean, at least G&W (and iirc Samus) have at least have SOME success in tournaments. Zelda doesn't seem to have any thing going for her by the sheer design of her kit, and next to no representation to prove otherwise.

EDIT: I agree though there really is no point in talking about who is the worst or one the worst characters in the game. If all characters are considered at WORST below average, and there is no real bad atm. It just seems pointless to place who are the bottom 5 because it's just pointless.

Uh I think you forgot about nairo.

 

[Djent]

Well I'm just gonna change the subject...
Instead of whose the worst, let's talk about a perceived high mid tier: R.O.B.
How do people feel about him? I personally believe that he's pretty solid. Unfortunately, he has problems with being juggled and edgeguarded due to his slow recovery. He also has generally slow aerials...but his zoning game is pretty stellar.
Gyro and laser are still effective, although ROB benefits more from an aggresive game in this iteration of smash.

I don't think R.O.B. is "pretty solid" - I think he's the definition of average:

Characters that are better than R.O.B. for sure:

Characters who might be better than R.O.B.:


These lists are not highly flattering. Assuming that none of the characters on the 2nd list are better, that still only puts R.O.B. in spot #21, which I can't reasonably interpret to mean "high mid." If the other 10 are as good as I think they are, then he's in spot #31, which is actually closer to "low mid." Actually, the way these lists (unintentionally) worked out, he's (IMO) average on average.

 

[Nu~]

I don't think R.O.B. is "pretty solid" - I think he's the definition of average:

Characters that are better than R.O.B. for sure:

Characters who might be better than R.O.B.:


These lists are not highly flattering. Assuming that none of the characters on the 2nd list are better, that still only puts R.O.B. in spot #21, which I can't reasonably interpret to mean "high mid." If the other 10 are as good as I think they are, then he's in spot #31, which is actually closer to "low mid." Actually, the way these lists (unintentionally) worked out, he's (IMO) average on average.

Alright, (IMO half or more of the characters in the 2nd list are definitely better than ROB. Especially )


But why do you think he's only average? What holds him back?

 

[Timbers]

Alright, (IMO in my opinion half or more of the characters in the 2nd list are definitely better than ROB. Especially )


But why do you think he's only average? What holds him back?

ROB's a good character, there's just a lot of great competition he has to fight with. He's "average" when put next to the rest of the cast, but analyzing only ROB shows he's still a solid character.

A solid character that gets juggled like crazy in a grab combo meta, but...

 

[Djent]

It's not any specific deficiency in his toolkit, but moreso the fact that he just doesn't beat anyone that really matters. I'm not aware of any high- or top-tier MUs that R.O.B. is supposed to win (open to correction on this point, however). Everyone on the 1st list (and some chars on the 2nd) cause trouble for somebody. Like for example:

A few notable examples:
does ok vs. (and probably in theory).
will probably make 's life hell (at least until he manages to get in), can probably do okay vs. as well (though much less of an approach problem on the latter's part).
mains were complaining about , who has a scary ground game, good juggle capacity, and dash grab shenanigans (so like in a lot of ways, except not combo bait).
seems to do at least ok vs. and I might be missing others.

Then I try to come up with strong characters who lose or go even with and, uhh...yeah that's the sign of mediocrity.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

might i mention that with customs ROB get his own version of the hoo hah.

 

[Vincent21]

hmmm.

Might change my mind about Samus. Dedede has clear limitations while Samus at least can approach matches different. Dedede does one thing and he does not do it well.

Toss up between who is the worst between them imo.

But the 3 worst are definitely Samus, Dedede and G&W imo.

I'd argue Samus, Dedede and Zelda, honestly. G&W still has good hitboxes and pretty legitimate damage racking.

@Nairo take this one.

[Desire to Learn Intensifies]

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ganon? Worse than Brawl?

. . .

Have you played Brawl Ganon? Have you seen his matchup spread?

His MU'S maybe better this time around but he's still a bad character. Without thunderstomp I feel like ganon lost a lot. I could be wrong but now he no longer has a lagless aerial and his side B tech chase loses a powerful option. I could be mistaken though and if I am I'd like to here why. I'm not a ganon playee but he doesn't seem to be a better character.

It must have been a long time since you checked those match-ups then, or we have completely different data. Marth beats Pikachu theoretically, only problem is that Esam have beaten the top Marth´s consistently by using Pikachu, but that could just be because of the skill gap (player-wise) and match-up knowledge.
You are right about Pika´s problems against disjoints though, Something Pikachu still needs to be vary of in this iteration of Smash.

That I won't deny. I stopped playing brawl a long time ago and didn't bother to stay up to date with anything. I'm not sure if it was a skill gap most of the top Marth's were top players in their region or just an out right type player. Esam is a great player but I don't recall him taking too many MK'S out. Even within his region I do believe seibrik was considered FL's best player. One thing I'm noticing in smash 4 is that a lot of the MK players aren't showing the type of results they were in brawl.

Bowser actually has some terrible landing options rather than zero landing options with D-air and shieldbreak Down-B being a thing, not to mention him finally having a normal airdodge and normal ledge options. Firebreath can't be SDIed and punished on hit. Bowser's Dash attack, U-smash, Up-B recovery, and Dashgrab are all massively better in this game. It still sucks for him he gets countered by projectile zoning pretty hard due to his size, but Smash 4 Bowser overall has way more options than before. Bowser unlike most characters basically didn't have his damage touched in the transition either.

Just to be specific with Ganondorf, he is one of the only characters in the game that has actually received mostly damage and knockback buffs even before factoring mechanics changes like Rage (D-tilt, B-air, N-air, Flame Choke, D-smash, U-smash, and grab pummel all deal more damage in this game). Also all of his aerials have less landing lag, especially his N-air and F-air which are now very viable SH spacing tools. Losing 3 damage and an autocancel on D-air comparatively speaking is extremely minor when instead Ganon's U-smash and N-air basically picks up the slack in this game. Sure he probably benefits from ledge and spotdodge changes more than any single character in the game, but Smash 4 Ganon is strictly a lot better than Brawl Ganon.

How people claim Mario is better baffles me...when his combo game still is extremely character and percent specific, does a lot less damage, he lost Jab cancels and stalling potency on Cape, his SH aerials all hit much higher and whiff more frequently against grounded characters in this game, and his F-air, DA, and negative state are overall still bad. Small mobility buffs don't compensate at all against characters with better range and good lingering hitboxes such as Ganondorf, who used to lose about 4/6 against Mario in Brawl, but now wins the matchup at least 55/45 in this game. To be frank, Mario doesn't even do well against any of the good characters except Fox and Falcon, who he goes about even against, and then he loses a lot of random matchups across the entire tier list because his weaknesses are still pretty much the same, and his reward is overall mediocre.

Sheik is also a weaker character from Brawl (her combos in general were actually a lot better in Brawl, and Transform allowed you to ignore stale moves on command), just the main change she benefits from is ledge mechanics which was really her main fatal weakness in Brawl.

With Bowser those moves don't actually help him land. If he does land because of those moves he's going to eat a punish. So he's still pretty fray in that regard.

I felt like the lose of dair for ganon was worse for him. I'm not really an expert on him and what you're saying make sense. So I'll keep what you said in mind.

I'm not really sure of Mario's MU but I do think you're pretty harsh on him. I want to say Mario's aerial mobility is better in this game. Also saying his combos are dependent on character that's true of a lot of characters. Floaty characters are harder to juggle and fast fallers are easier. With his mobility and frame data mario is a superb character. You're going to neex to adjust how you space your bairs if he junps higher but that's not a problem. The lack of cape shenanigans do hurt.

Shiek replaced transforming into Zelda with bouncing fish. Which instantly makes her a better character. Shiek is also really hard to edgeguard. Her combos have gotten better while ftilt lock doesn't work she gained faur combos combos from throw and needles. Losing DACUS hurts her though.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'd argue Samus, Dedede and Zelda, honestly. G&W still has good hitboxes and pretty legitimate damage racking.

Damage racking is not samus's issue it's weak control in neutral. any time things get rough shes basically forced to a abandon an advantagous stage postioning. witch would not be all that bad if she was a bit faster or had a burst option. witch would make her an awsome run away character like naoto in persona 4 arena.

 

[Vincent21]

Oh no yeah I get that but I'm saying that damage racking is a strength of G&W that is relevant enough for me to elevate him over Samus and Dedede and Zelda. Like it's one of the reasons he's actually pretty awesome.

I mean he can make some pretty sick conversions off of grabs, He's got a pretty wild dash attack, his uair unique property gives him an ABSURD advantage of anyone with a bad/problematic disadvantage state And given his characteristics and recovery options and crazy big/lasting hitboxes on bair and fair he's got a nice edge game.

I'd go as far as to say people are sleeping on him.

 

[Pyr]

His MU'S maybe better this time around but he's still a bad character. Without thunderstomp I feel like ganon lost a lot. I could be wrong but now he no longer has a lagless aerial and his side B tech chase loses a powerful option. I could be mistaken though and if I am I'd like to here why. I'm not a ganon playee but he doesn't seem to be a better character.

Ganon's Bair and UAir autocancel in shorthop still and Dair still autocancels, but this time with a full hop, making it hard as a follow up to side-B, but still allowing for Thunderstomp shenanigans in some matchups. Side-B, for what it loses in the DAir followup, it gains for doing a crapton more damage for each Side-B read. Further, a lot of his moves are just better this time around, either power or frame-wise.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh no yeah I get that but I'm saying that damage racking is a strength of G&W that is relevant enough for me to elevate him over Samus and Dedede and Zelda. Like it's one of the reasons he's actually pretty awesome.

I mean he can make some pretty sick conversions off of grabs, He's got a pretty wild dash attack, his uair unique property gives him an ABSURD advantage of anyone with a bad/problematic disadvantage state And given his characteristics and recovery options and crazy big/lasting hitboxes on bair and fair he's got a nice edge game.

I'd go as far as to say people are sleeping on him.

I think G&W gots some thing going for him for sure.

 

[Luco]

I don't believe G&W is bottom 5 material, he can really rack up damage and his MUs against some characters are good enough for him to not be bottom 5 in my eyes. I feel he's lower mid tier or possibly low, but if I really had to pick a bottom 3 I would probably be looking at , and ... to be honest though the only one I'm reasonably confident in out of those three is Zelda. I'm pretty sure she's at the bottom of the pile somewhere, Kirby and Swordfighter I think could end up somewhere else in low tier above a couple of the other contenders.

Considering our meta is likely changing to customs, then Kirby probably goes up a few spots due to jumping inhale alone, Swordfighter also probably goes a little bit up and Zelda still finds life hard.

 

[Locke 06]

Why is G&W's UAir such an amazing tool? I know the 2nd hit has very good knockback, but that's all I see + a gimmicky windbox that doesn't really do a whole lot. When I see G&W UAir talk, I don't really get it. And, in comparison, the lack of Mega Man UAir talk amuses me.

Bottom 3 or 5 doesn't matter. Why make that arbitrary cut off? Order at the bottom means nothing except for "bragging rights" for playing the "worst character."

 

[Djent]

If I were forced to predict a "bottom 5," it'd be (probably from worst to best). I only feel strongly about the first 3; 4 or 5 are basically just (charge) shots in the dark.

I think we know too little about to reliably conclude (s)he is bottom tier, and (s)he seems like the kind of character who would more likely end up at the bottom due to ignorance rather than genuine suckitude. @ Shaya has persuaded me that isn't *that* bad (although I'd be shocked if he ends up in the top half of the cast). probably wins a few MUs vs. decent characters. sucks, but again I can't quite see him at bottom. I'm glad people are over calling "bottom tier," although he (like the others here) is bad. Finally, if you put or in bottom tier (as I've actually seen a few of you do), I really don't know what to say to you.