Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

I like how Leaping Rest is a totally absurd concept for a move...

...and yet less absurd than the original.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Bottom 5?

Bowser's in it without customs. Crap throws, everything is laggy as hell, struggles to find kills unless you can land one of his very telegraphed moves, gets combo'd to hell and back (ZSS can dthrow->upB at kill%s and it is guaranteed), and has no good landing options whatsoever and crap air acceleration, so he gets juggled like crazy.

Bowser is definitely not bottom 5. He might be slow and get comboed but his tools do its job.

 

[incrediblej]

I don't think we should discuss who bottom 5
we should be discussing who's low mid and high tier instead

 

[|RK|]

has some good matchups against the top of the cast, even without customs. Mostly due to his f1 crouching (lol zss) and utilt strings.

Yeah. Kirby has pretty good matchups against the top of the cast, including (by our early analysis) a 50:50 with the potential best character in the games (Sheik). I don't know of many matchups that are truly terrible for Kirby, tbh (save for Yoshi, of course). Wouldn't put him in bottom 5, but I'm biased.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Bowser is definitely not bottom 5. He might be slow and get comboed but his tools do its job.

I think you can argue a lot out of bot 5 like this, which really is awesome praise for the games balance, but someone's gotta be there right? What is it about Bowsers tools that you think set him apart and make him better than anyone you feel is at the bottom?

I don't think we should discuss who bottom 5
we should be discussing who's low mid and high tier instead

point being that if they're not top or bottom 5 then they're all really close together. If we weed out the extremes then sorting the mid guys is easier.

 

[incrediblej]

point being that if they're not top or bottom 5 then they're all really close together. If we weed out the extremes then sorting the mid guys is easier.

Well we could find out who isn't in what tier we know some characters would probably not make it to top tier unless their meta changes or characters that are probably never gonna make it unless Nintendo makes a patch to make them top we know there's bowser that probably be high mid tier at nost or the occasional mii fighters like gunner or swordsman that could be high tier if their meta does change

 

[Funkermonster]

Even though he isn't nearly as popular as he was back on 3DS, I still think is at least slightly above average at worst, and I feel he'll get some of his fame/infame back once more people start playing him and unearth his big back of tricks. I feel the same way about , I can't see him being any lower than upper mid tier and I think he just doesn't have enough players yet. Abadango made a good impression with him at APEX, and I think people will start seeing his potential once other Pac Men start making a splash too.

Also imo, is way overhyped. Unless customs become a thing, I feel the hype surrounding him will dry up overtime once people get used to him. I've yet to see any real potential from Mario, to me, he's still a niche character who can do well in some matchups, but has a hard time in others.

 

[incrediblej]

way about , I can't see him being any lower than upper mid tier and I think he just doesn't have enough players yet. Abadango made a good impression with him at APEX, and I think people will start seeing his potential once other Pac Men start making a splash too.

I'm pretty sure he is commonly played in Japan and here in U.S. is the only one who underplay him that's why we don't see many Pac man in tournaments

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bowser is definitely not bottom 5. He might be slow and get comboed but his tools do its job.

who in the world told u bowser is slow?

 

[Ffamran]

who in world told u bowser is slow?

. Gotta go fast.

Bowser's dash speed was always fairly good or fast in Melee, Brawl, and SSB4, right? Still, it's kind of ludicrous how he's faster than Falco, Ganondorf, and Samus. Have you seen Ganondorf run in Twilight Princess? He rushes into you like a madman and Samus, well, yeah... I wonder if it's Adam's fault she can't run fast. And as for Falco, bias and frustration from me, but also because it feels weird how he's so slow in everything, but walk, air, fall, and frame speed. You'd think a bird... I wonder if his air speed was supposed to be what Wolf had in Melee since Wolf was planned in the beginning... It does make sense since Wolf does seem like a power version of Wolf and the whole gangster grip could translate to Wolf as a mercenary, space pirate thing. Well, whatever.

Anyway, Bowser runs ridiculously fast for a giant lizard... thing. In terms of attacks, I don't really know, but Dtilt, Down Smash?, Flying Fortress, Jab, and Ftilt? seem fairly fast for a heavyweight.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

. Gotta go fast.

Bowser's dash speed was always fairly good or fast in Melee, Brawl, and SSB4, right? Still, it's kind of ludicrous how he's faster than Falco, Ganondorf, and Samus. Have you seen Ganondorf run in Twilight Princess? He rushes into you like a madman and Samus, well, yeah... I wonder if it's Adam's fault she can't run fast. And as for Falco, bias and frustration from me, but also because it feels weird how he's so slow in everything, but walk, air, fall, and frame speed. You'd think a bird... I wonder if his air speed was supposed to be what Wolf had in Melee since Wolf was planned in the beginning... It does make sense since Wolf does seem like a power version of Wolf and the whole gangster grip could translate to Wolf as a mercenary, space pirate thing. Well, whatever.

Anyway, Bowser runs ridiculously fast for a giant lizard... thing. In terms of attacks, I don't really know, but Dtilt, Down Smash?, Flying Fortress, Jab, and Ftilt? seem fairly fast for a heavyweight.

Samus aint too slow. bottom half but shes not like poop.
hell shes got the same air speed as fox. and her running speed is better than some threats.

 

[Ffamran]

Samus aint too slow. bottom half but shes not like poop.
hell shes got the same air speed as fox. and her running speed is better than some threats.

Still, she's slower in running speed than Bowser, a giant walking turtle of all people. Well, for balancing sakes, I guess since with Speed Booster, Samus should be at Captain Falcon's level or even Sonic's which would make her broken beyond repair. I mean, imagine a zoning character who can hit and run like that. Oh wait, Sonic's his own projectile.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Still, she's slower in running speed than Bowser, a giant walking turtle of all people. Well, for balancing sakes, I guess since with Speed Booster, Samus should be at Captain Falcon's level or even Sonic's which would make her broken beyond repair. I mean, imagine a zoning character who can hit and run like that. Oh wait, Sonic's his own projectile.

To be fair bowser is faster than 3/4th of the game. but yes. a fast samus would be just a little too dandy.

 

[TriTails]

Bowser having a fast dashing speed makes as much sense as Luigi being slower than 46 characters in the air, one of them includes a BOXER (Someone who has nothing to do with the air), a DOG (Not sure what his game is, but seriously, how the hell can he wall jumps and have a good air speed at the same time), two plumbers (No suprise there) who are FATTER (Now this is surprise), a Hylian that can't even jump manually, and a swordman who is carrying a huge dang two-handed sword.

Yeah... this happened because 'balance' is a thing.

Oh well, Luigi is Luigi.

And I do believe Falco has the same air speed as (Dark) Pit. They ain't slow.

 

[Thinkaman]

Luigi can have an ordinary air speed the same day he has ordinary startup times on his aerials.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi can have an ordinary air speed the same day he has ordinary startup times on his aerials.

Sheik.

At least, for the F-air.

If you are counting ridiculiously fast recovery and duration, then yeah, nobody surpasess him.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sheik.

At least, for the F-air.

If you are counting ridiculiously fast recovery and duration, then yeah, nobody surpasess him.

Okay, normal startup or damage.

 

[TriTails]

Okay, normal startup or damage.

Luigi's aerials:
N-air: 12% clean, 6% late (Frame 3)
F-air: 9% (Frame 7)
U-air: 11% sweetspot, 7% sourspot (Frame 5)
B-air: 14% sweetspot, 8% sourspot (Frame 6)
D-air: 10% meteor, 8% sourspot (Frame 10)

Um... Yay I guess? XD

Seriously though, those data are insane.

At least... Mario has laggy F-air (But still, he has faster U-air and D-air. And the next thing we know, he shot up from 13-14th(?) from Brawl to 6th fastest in Smash 4...). But there he shots up.

Then again, Luigi with airspeed = Busted A.K.A. New Meta-Knight

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We actually did that in Brawl-. Luigi was top tier basically until we realized, "**** this, this isn't working" and nerfed it.

 

[TriTails]

We actually did that in Brawl-. Luigi was top tier basically until we realized, "**** this, this isn't working" and nerfed it.

Now you know why Luigi's airspeed is 2nd slowest .

Though, an airspeed buff wouldn't hurt...

 

[HeroMystic]

Sheik.

At least, for the F-air.

Sheik's F-air is weak as ****.

She can do five F-airs in a row and it'd only result in ~24% damage. Luigi can do double that with his aerials. Sheik's F-air is only amazing because of the mobility added on top of it, giving her immediate stage control and sets up for edgeguarding.

 

[TriTails]

It's Sheik, what didja expect?

At least I have my F-air that has bigger hitbox than Roslaina's U-smash... Thank God, Luigi was blessed with that move.

But one thing that I will never understand why did they give Mario so low damage output despite not being a combo king like Luigi or Sheik (Well, QUEEN for Sheik).

Oh right, we have this thing called 'balance'.

Anyway, speaking of aerials. Is Jigglypuff REALLY as good as some people say? Her aerials are legimately insane for a baloon, and her off-stage game is as strong as Ganon on the ground (N-air, anyone?). Her ground game is semi-bad, but not as bad as people would think. I think she is a contender for high tier.

 

[meleebrawler]

. Gotta go fast.

Bowser's dash speed was always fairly good or fast in Melee, Brawl, and SSB4, right? Still, it's kind of ludicrous how he's faster than Falco, Ganondorf, and Samus. Have you seen Ganondorf run in Twilight Princess? He rushes into you like a madman and Samus, well, yeah... I wonder if it's Adam's fault she can't run fast. And as for Falco, bias and frustration from me, but also because it feels weird how he's so slow in everything, but walk, air, fall, and frame speed. You'd think a bird... I wonder if his air speed was supposed to be what Wolf had in Melee since Wolf was planned in the beginning... It does make sense since Wolf does seem like a power version of Wolf and the whole gangster grip could translate to Wolf as a mercenary, space pirate thing. Well, whatever.

Anyway, Bowser runs ridiculously fast for a giant lizard... thing. In terms of attacks, I don't really know, but Dtilt, Down Smash?, Flying Fortress, Jab, and Ftilt? seem fairly fast for a heavyweight.

Seeing Ganondorf run in the final battle of T, it actually seems to be about the same as in Smash.
For the burst of speed killing the sage, he probably used Flame Choke, except he was so strong he killed on contact.

Samus is only slightly slower here than her 2D games (she seems to run faster than in any previous smash).
Only the Speed Booster lets her reach truly high levels of speed, after about five seconds of non-stop running.

But one thing that I will never understand why did they give Mario so low damage output despite not being a combo king like Luigi or Sheik (Well, QUEEN for Sheik).

Because Mario has much better air speed than either, and has things like cape and FLUDD to get
silly edgeguards regardless of percent.

 

[HeroMystic]

But one thing that I will never understand why did they give Mario so low damage output despite not being a combo king like Luigi or Sheik (Well, QUEEN for Sheik).

Fun Fact: Damage is the main factor for hitstun duration and KO potential.

In the data, there is no variable that allows hitstun to be tweaked, so assuming the formula for hitstun is in the very core of the game (i.e., it cannot be tweaked for individual characters), then every character has to follow the same rules.

Since Luigi's air mobility is so bad, he needs that hitstun to continuously follow-up from his initial attack. So naturally, high damage comes with it.

If Mario had like... 1% or 2% added to all his aerials he'd be a top tier contender due to all the benefits that come with it.

 

[Smog Frog]

Today I looked at the cast to see who has the best reactive ground game. By this I mean characters who play best when they stay grounded, do not approach, and just wait at midrange for the opponent to make a mistake--so not characters who rely on short hops like Pikachu and Diddy Kong. I went through the roster looking for great jabs, dash attacks, and dash grabs and came up with these characters that have all three (I didn't count the Miis because of size variations, though they conditionally have great frame data) based on my own observations:



From this list, I knocked out Bowser immediately because his frame data wasn't as good as I had thought (his jab has great range though, covering a roll's length almost). I took out Yoshi after some thought too because of the endlag on his dash grab, which makes it slightly less abusable than most others on this list.

Jigglypuff was a really strange case, and I was surprised to see her there. Frame 5 dash attack, frame 8 dash grab, frame 5 jab? All pretty great data. But the worst running and walking speed in the cast? Not as appealing, even if her aerial mobility does mean that she can get to where she wants to be more often than not. Her jab also doesn't have that much range (though it has a deceptive amount of range relative to its animation). So she got cut. Following this reasoning, I cut Peach, Ness, and Lucario as well because of ground mobility, though they were strong contenders.

After reductions, the list had some characters with amazing ground mobility left, so after some thought I cut Game & Watch, Mario, and ROB, though I kept Rosalina and the Pits due to disjoints. I also cut Falco, because while he is awesome and has great walk speed he does have some trouble with his wonky jab sometimes, and his dash attack isn't that great.

Charizard was the last one I cut. Fire Breath is strong, his jab is great, and his dash grab is good despite being frame 10 because his dash speed is great in general and he has huge grab range. Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz also make up for a less-than-stellar dash attack, but the other 10 characters simply seemed better by comparison, so Charizard got cut solely on the basis of being 11th man out. The size was a bit of an issue too, but more on that later.

Thus I had this as my top 10:



Reducing the list from this point was harder as all of these characters have fantastic ground games. I noticed, though, that a few characters on the list do better against short hop aerials than others: in particular, Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, and Rosalina (even with her crouch) were cut because of this (it helped that besides Falcon all of them are on the lower end of the mobility spectrum). As amazing as Falcon's and Rosalina's ground games are, it's difficult to overlook how much easier it is to hit them because of their height compared to guys like Meta Knight and Sonic/Fox. This is part of why I had cut Charizard earlier. Also, you'll notice that range ended up mattering less in my estimation than speed, as speed is better for being in a favorable position.

So my final top 5 reactive ground games list, with a dash of subjectivity from yours truly, looks like this:

1. I'm sure everyone saw this coming. Great mobility specs, great dash attack, great jab, great rolls, great smashes and tilts that all serve jab-like functions--Mac doesn't even need a good dash grab to be #1 in the game in this regard. Shields? Who cares about those?
2. I have to give it to Metaknight over the characters below, because as @Tagxy pointed out, being resistant to short hop aerials is a really big deal--when your opponent can't short hop against you, it seriously cuts down his options in neutral, giving you a better chance to react to the remaining options. Anyway, his dash attack is great, dash grab is good, run speed is huge, and rolls are great. Having multiple jumps is a boon since he can land precisely where he wants to while avoiding projectile camping. His rapid jab is kind of mediocre, but he doesn't need a great jab to be #2 when he has d-tilt since it's frame 3 (though it's not like you can't use jab at all; it covers spotdodges and landings quite well). Also, f-smash being nearly lagless at the end seals the deal: it gives him a strong spacing tool to punish landings and ledge getups with use of pivots.
2. It's difficult to compare Sonic and Meta Knight on the ground, so I gave them a tie at #2. Meta Knight is harder to hit with SH aerials, it's true, but Sonic during spindash has tiny hurtboxes because his spikes don't count as hurtboxes, so it's a tough call. You have two great spin options as Sonic: you can go for the more damaging punish in side-b or the faster punish in down-b, so the lack of a great dash attack doesn't really matter (and it's not that bad, really). Sonic's placement comes down to this: spindash is just that good. Could easily be slightly better than MK overall, though still worse than Little Mac I think.
4. Really close with Fox, but I put Sheik above him for two reasons: one is that needles are more annoying than lasers for most members of the cast, and two is that Sheik's rolls are far better (among the best in the game, in fact). Other than that, great crouch, semi-crouching frame-5 dash, pivot options--Sheik is great on the ground. Sheik's lack of gentleman jab doesn't matter because her f-tilt is all kinds of crazy. It's worth noting that Sheik not only has one of the best reactive ground games but also one of the best short hop games in the game--so don't let Sheik being 4th on this list fool you; I still think that she's the best character in the game.
5. 4-frame dash attack and lasers+reflector basically give him all the control he needs on the ground. His rapid jab is kind of bad, but jab cancels save him here. That plus his general mobility (seriously, have you tried pivoting as Fox? it goes quite far) makes Fox crazy strong on the ground.
Honorable Mention: Greninja just fell to #6 because I think the 5 that are above him are that good. 6th out of this list isn't bad at all, of course, so still a huge threat. Greninja's dash grab range is quite absurd.

So, in conclusion, Little Mac Meta Knight da bess, and you should all go play him right now.

charizard actually stands as tall as fox because he's hunched over and his wings and half of his tail are disjointed

 

[warionumbah2]

I agree with your top ten, but Captain Falcon and maybe Greninja might be more deserving to be top 5, and MK might deserve to be slightly lower. Fox and Shiek rely on aerial game a bit too much to be pure reactive ground game.

Nah MK deserves to stay where he is, his dash attack doesn't slow down when it hits shields and it sets up into kill moves and combo's. His dash grab has the same slide effect as Falcons so he can drag people off stage with it, when you reach 90-110%(unless you're heavy like Bowser and DDD) you have to respect his DA because you can die so easily in two moves.

F-Smash is used to bait and it does it job well, i can F-Smash then throw out a DA or Dtilt if you approach me.

Reason why MK has such a good ground game is because he has a safe and fast dash attack,he can dash into shield quickly,good dash grab,frame 3 Dtilt that cause tripping,Pivot F-Smash for punishment and bait,good OOS options(Dair set sup combo's and Shuttle Loop outright killing you) and the sheer fact that anything other than Ftilt,Smashes and Jab can lead into a combo or frame trap.

I think he's got one of the best rolls in the game i know for a fact its within top 10. There's like no other reason to be in the air unless your zoning chars out with Dair.

D-Smash,U-Smash,F-Smash,Shuttle Loop,Nair,Bair,Up throw,Tornado,Dimensional Cape <--- Kill moves Bold can be setup reliably. Add anything SolidSense said as well makes it hard for me to believe MK drops out of his top 5, just cause of well i dunno. Just cause.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Nah MK deserves to stay where he is, his dash attack doesn't slow down when it hits shields and it sets up into kill moves and combo's. His dash grab has the same slide effect as Falcons so he can drag people off stage with it, when you reach 90-110%(unless you're heavy like Bowser and DDD) you have to respect his DA because you can die so easily in two moves.

F-Smash is used to bait and it does it job well, i can F-Smash then throw out a DA or Dtilt if you approach me.

Reason why MK has such a good ground game is because he has a safe and fast dash attack,he can dash into shield quickly,good dash grab,frame 3 Dtilt that cause tripping,Pivot F-Smash for punishment and bait,good OOS options(Dair set sup combo's and Shuttle Loop outright killing you) and the sheer fact that anything other than Ftilt,Smashes and Jab can lead into a combo or frame trap.

I think he's got one of the best rolls in the game i know for a fact its within top 10. There's like no other reason to be in the air unless your zoning chars out with Dair.

D-Smash,U-Smash,F-Smash,Shuttle Loop,Nair,Bair,Up throw,Tornado,Dimensional Cape <--- Kill moves Bold can be setup reliably. Add anything SolidSense said as well makes it hard for me to believe MK drops out of his top 5, just cause of well i dunno. Just cause.

F smash is a good lure, but it's fair from unpunishable, Dimensional Cape and Tornado never struck me as easily set up, and I've never had huge trouble avoiding them.

I'm not saying he needs to drop out of the top 5, I just believe Sonic at least is better with his faster running speed, very good Dash Attack and F Tilt, great reward for grabbing, including 2 killing throws, and of course spin dash dealing so much damage after the aerial.

 

[Nobie]

I've fought a good number of Rosalinas as Meta Knight lately and I've come to notice just how quickly MK can dispatch Luma. While I've mentioned that quality in other characters before, when it comes to Meta Knight I feel like I'm fighting Rosalina by herself much more often than I am Rosalina + Luma. Between his frame-4 down smash, his excellent dash attack, and Drill Rush, Luma lasts for all of 5 seconds. Rosalina still has the range advantage but it also means a lot of her kill power vanishes when taking on MK.

 

[Terotrous]

Who, might I ask, would you consider for bottom 5?

In Customs-off, would be my pick. Samus, Kirby, and Zelda were all bad in Brawl and didn't get the help they needed (in fact, in some situations they got worse!), Swordfighter is just lacking overall, and Lucina is a way worse Marth in a game where Marth himself isn't that great.

Are there matchups that 180 with a custom move or two? For starters I think R.O.B. is +1 against Mega Man with Reflector Arm, and Wii Fit Trainer is +1 against Sonic with Weighted Header.

Megaman also has a reflector though! The ROB / Megaman matchup with customs is interesting, there was one at Shockwave last week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj8aJRhyB3I

I don't think we should discuss who bottom 5
we should be discussing who's low mid and high tier instead

You're welcome to check out the other 400 pages of this thread if you want high tier discussion. We seem to have come to a pretty solid consensus about it, actually, which is why people are moving on to other things.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The fact that it's harder to determine a bottom tier than a top tier is awesome. So many viable characters :3

 

[HeavyLobster]

seem to me to be characters that are below average(though I don't think any of them are bad, and some are only very slightly below average. Some might even turn out to be good. But these are the ones I'm shaky on being consistent competitive forces in customless, and I'm not counting Miis). Of these, I'm comfortable ruling out immediately from consideration, as I'm confident they're not bad. I don't think is bad, but I always worry about the theorycraft working against him. As is, he can mindgame his way in well enough and capitalize on his opportunities to the point where he's always a threat in spite of his many problems. is nothing special, but he has no major weaknesses and tippers are a valuable asset. He doesn't really find himself in many situations where he can't compete, so I'm ruling him out. obviously has approaching issues, but his low lag moves, decent MUs against good chars, and edgeguarding/recovery make him better than he often gets credit for. This leaves as the bottom 10. is nothing special without customs, but still has enough tools for me to say she's not bottom 5. isn't bad. Her CQC is surprisingly quick and destructive, and Charge Shot is devastating when she sets it up properly. has Mario's great attack speed in addition to kill power. His fundamentals are still good enough for him to generally hold up. has some pretty glaring flaws, but his durability, damage racking, and powerful disjoints are enough to keep him threatening.
I'm torn between and for bottom 5, but I'll put just outside of it because his stuff is less gimmicky. Rounding out the bottom 5 are the generally mediocre , who has poor hitboxes in close range, who is easily stage CP'd and not really all that dominant on FD to begin with, and , who can't really approach, has unreliable aerials and Smashes, and her only real strengths are resetting to neutral and surprise Lightning Kick and elevator kills at early %s.

 

[Unknownkid]

Swordfighter nonsense? bruh the character is probably not viable but everyone deserves their meta to grow.

No, I meant my issue with gimping Dair. I guess I will figure it out myself or discuss it at the SF Thread.

I always enjoy your guys discussion/opinion/analysis/impression. That is why I lurk here. Hearing information about Swordfighter and move choice intrigue me. So continue... I am learning something.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hmm.
I say Kirby has better MU's then Bowser and better MU's vs more noteworthy characters.
If anything I'd say Kirby is stronger in our current meta with the current picks we have then Bowser is.

 

[popsofctown]

Hmm.
I say Kirby has better MU's then Bowser and better MU's vs more noteworthy characters.
If anything I'd say Kirby is stronger in our current meta with the current picks we have then Bowser is.

Bowser's glass is half full, Kirby's is half empty! U silly

 

[warionumbah2]

F smash is a good lure, but it's fair from unpunishable, Dimensional Cape and Tornado never struck me as easily set up, and I've never had huge trouble avoiding them.

I'm not saying he needs to drop out of the top 5, I just believe Sonic at least is better with his faster running speed, very good Dash Attack and F Tilt, great reward for grabbing, including 2 killing throws, and of course spin dash dealing so much damage after the aerial.

If your within top 6 fastest in the game and have fast dash attacks then yes its punishable, but its a very slim window of punishment. Dtilt sets up dimensional cape at 100% for all of the cast and tornado can be set up if you get a trip after dtilt or after baiting an airdodge.

I never have trouble avoiding a lot of moves but they always remain a threat. I misinterpreted your post thought you were dropping him off 5.my b.

I've fought a good number of Rosalinas as Meta Knight lately and I've come to notice just how quickly MK can dispatch Luma. While I've mentioned that quality in other characters before, when it comes to Meta Knight I feel like I'm fighting Rosalina by herself much more often than I am Rosalina + Luma. Between his frame-4 down smash, his excellent dash attack, and Drill Rush, Luma lasts for all of 5 seconds. Rosalina still has the range advantage but it also means a lot of her kill power vanishes when taking on MK.

Its his most favorable MU against the high tiers.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Frustrates me that I have kind of a small pool of characters that I've personally fought against in my region with D3. Like, I wanna play it safe and say that MK beats D3 squarely, for example, but I haven't faced anyone offline yet that's competent with the character to give a real impresssion of why that is.

:v Don't mind this post.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Bowser's glass is half full, Kirby's is half empty! U silly

No, Kirby has more water.
Lets take DDD, Bowser and Kirby.

I am either Shulk, Sword Fighter, Link, Toon Link, Marth....or hell DDD, maybe im Sheik, Diddy, Fox or Rosaluma.

I grab Bowser. I U-throw/D-throw on basically *any of these characters* and there are absolutely more...

What are your actual odds of getting back to ground, and if you do so, your ability to get to the ground without me regrabbing you.
If I knock you off after this exchange, how confident are you of returning to the actually bloody edge, against most of these characters.

Frankly I say Bowser gets screwed the most out of this selection full-stop. Because all he can confidently do is Jump once, and if we take him off-stage DDD and Kirby will return with more likelihood then Bowser. Many of these characters will slap his D-air and Bowser Bomb like they don't even matter.

I say Bowsers disadvantage state is actually terrible. He'll still win games because his reward is *that* good, but frankly we talk like "Diddy's recovery is vulnerable, and Rosaluma can't land" then wtf is Bowser.

Meanwhile Kirby's having low landing lag, a fast grab himself, fast tilts, combo's and a pummel that will certainly rack up enough damage and his "flaw" is that he "hasn't changed much from Brawl" Kirby mains won't even voice his strengths outside of saying how unspectacular they feel and the significance of customs, when his customs are really relevant, because his normals shouldn't b discredited.

Kirbys range and movement speed are still booty though.

Smash 4 is nice in that characters have things going for them, but like Marth V Lucina, the minor differences that you *don't have* are going to stand out. Kirby doesn't have range or movement speed oh and Ganon legitimately kills him in 3 good reads but it's way easier to take advantage of Bowser then Charizard.

 

[Ulevo]

I don't understand why people keep ******** about Luigi's aerial speed. Characters are allowed to have weaknesses. It also gives him a defining quality. Even if we had the option to, I wouldn't want to buff or increase his aerial speed because it detracts from his theme.

Anyway. I see a lot of characters being labeled as bad that really have no business being labeled as bad. Characters I can definitively say are lackluster from my experience are Samus, Charizard, Zelda, and Bowser Jr. to some extent.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Okay, Zelda I'll give you...

But Zard, Samus, and Junior have no business being down there whatsoever.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ulevo]

Okay, Zelda I'll give you...

But Zard, Samus, and Junior have no business being down there whatsoever.

Smooth Criminal

Compared to the rest of the cast? I'd argue you're wrong. Especially about Samus.