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Character Competitive Impressions

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Shaya

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I may be heavily involved with "Little Mac, lol" movement, but I will say that people underestimate Mac-Air.
In general he has a really good short hop fast fall as well (plus short hop air dodge is good), also is able to air dodge into the ground for only 15 frames in contrast to 22; these things do matter. It's a heavy part of his approach game by what I've seen by his best players.

Mac can definitely be baity/aggressive with aerial up-b as well, trust me.
 

wedl!!

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But speaking of bottom characters, do you think we can make a consensus bottom 5, like we have (nearly) at the top? Zelda and SF are probably sure bets but then who? Before Shaya posted I would have included G&W due to his weight but now I'm not sure. Is there anyone else that is inarguably "not good"? (Since bad is mostly not true for this smash)
characters who round out the bottom are like :4myfriends:,:4littlemac:,:4wiifit::4zelda:,:4gaw: imo

ike has bad mobility, is comboed easily, slow, has meh recovery and poor specials. fair is extremely good so he's at the top of the heap i'd say.

mac relies entirely on stupidly hard reads because he has no pressure in neutral. he's basically falcon with no airgame and a worse recovery.

wiifit has horrible range and hitboxes. her only saving grace is being unkillable offstage.

zelda makes no sense to me; she's designed to be a defensive punish character but lacks tools to force/respect approaches.

gnw has a good punish game but can't make up for his horrible neutral, which hurts in a neutral-centric game.
 

HeroMystic

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Gonna sound like every "low-tier" main ever here, but I don't think Palutena is that bad. I mean yeah, she's tall, light, her tilts/smash attacks are slow, she struggles to keep people off her and killing can be challenging, but I feel she has enough going for her to not be bottom 5. Good mobility, incredible jab that you can do a lot of things out of (Jab>Instant Dash Attack, Jab>Grab, even Jab>Smash Attack at really high %s), powerful and unbeatable B-air/Dash Attack, etc...

I feel it's worth mentioning that Ryo actually prefers fighting Diddy with Palutena over Ike and Captain Falcon. He's been doing rather well with her, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB_vToRXIZk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7tug62o5ZI
http://youtu.be/2WPi9EdchLg?t=15m40s
This is somewhat convincing that Paluntena isn't bottom 5, but it's obvious she still struggles against Diddy as well, it's just Ryo is the better player (I'd be more convinced if it were not the same players). How well does she do against other characters?

I mean, Zelda has a pretty even match against Rosalina, and Nairo's Zelda beat Nientono's Sheik. All it really proves for the moment is the gaps in tiers aren't as big as they were in previous iterations, so having secondaries from the bottom tier is not a bad idea.
 

Antonykun

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It is cool bro. Swordfighter can be forgettable. There is only so many of us. I still do not know how you guys land the BA gimp consistently. It is easy with Kirby and Bowser Jr. (to an extent). Perhaps, I need to stop FF when using it.

Anyways... let's not cloud this thread with Swordfighter nonsense. Continue as you were.
Swordfighter nonsense? bruh the character is probably not viable but everyone deserves their meta to grow.
 

warriorman222

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Well for starters, those other characters you mention don't die in like three seconds as soon as "airgame" is mentioned.
And neither does Little Mac. You can't even kill these scrub Macs online in 10 seconds, it takes time for them tom fall all the way down. And the other can be sheild-grabbed even with a skilled user.
 

Jaxas

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characters who round out the bottom are like :4myfriends:,:4littlemac:,:4wiifit::4zelda:,:4gaw: imo

ike has bad mobility, is comboed easily, slow, has meh recovery and poor specials. fair is extremely good so he's at the top of the heap i'd say.

mac relies entirely on stupidly hard reads because he has no pressure in neutral. he's basically falcon with no airgame and a worse recovery.

wiifit has horrible range and hitboxes. her only saving grace is being unkillable offstage.

zelda makes no sense to me; she's designed to be a defensive punish character but lacks tools to force/respect approaches.

gnw has a good punish game but can't make up for his horrible neutral, which hurts in a neutral-centric game.
Since when does :4myfriends: have bad mobility? Last I checked it wasn't that bad, and SH -> Quick Draw is pretty solid for maneuverability. When you have his strength (admittedly toned down from Brawl) coupled with a huge disjoint and most aerials autocancelling out of a short hop, that seems pretty dangerous to me. (Also add in customs and suddenly he's really good).

Ike's main weaknesses that I've seen are how easily he's Juggled (he's heavy) and the fact that his recovery can be shieldgrabbed on the way up, meaning that theoretically he goes off stage and he dies there.

Anyways... :4littlemac: has no pressure in neutral? He's pretty freaking scary there, and his main advantage (IMO) is pressure (exerted especially well in neutral). What holds him back are hard-counter characters and stages more than anything.

I do agree with you on Zelda, but I don't know enough about WFT and G&W to talk about them.
 

Smog Frog

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going to point out that its harder to juggle ike than other heavies because of up b super armor, and lol his hurtbox isnt connected to his sword, you cant grab him on the way up with up b unless you recover really really REALLY high, in which case you should be getting smacked in the **** with an fsmash instead
 

Lavani

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also is able to air dodge into the ground for only 15 frames in contrast to 22
It was 19f pre-1.0.4 and it's the standard 22f now, actually. ZSS was the one with the 15f airdodge landing (which is also 22f now).
 

Antonykun

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hey guys does smash air slash compare too boost kick/ shuttle loop?
 

Timbers

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Hmmm...I wonder,
Does anyone think the number of good players on for glory will slowly increase as the meta grows?
Yeah, there will always be new scrubs, but as the meta grows, people progressively improve.
If customs-legal becomes a normal part of the meta then probably not. People who are serious about getting better will opt out of For Glory (even more than they already do) and go jump on Anther's Ladder or something so they can play in a customs environment.
 

ChronoPenguin

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hey guys does smash air slash compare too boost kick/ shuttle loop?
Boost Kick and Shuttle loop have a stark advantage of being able to be stringed into from a U-air combo that will put them closer to the blast zone by the time you do it to have them kill earlier. Otherwise as kill moves shuttle loop has less KB and I'd Boost kick should be in the same situation.

If Shulk had a combo into his Air Slash that put them at the same positions that ZSS and MK can get targets to with a U-air he'd kill quite early with it.
 
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RIP_Lucas

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Boost Kick and Shuttle loop have a stark advantage of being able to be stringed into from a U-air combo that will put them closer to the blast zone by the time you do it to have them kill earlier. Otherwise as kill moves shuttle loop has less KB and I'd Boost kick should be in the same situation.

If Shulk had a combo into his Air Slash that put them at the same positions that ZSS and MK can get targets to with a U-air he'd kill quite early with it.
Not exactly a combo, but it is possible to bait the air dodge and punish with Air Slash. Not that that's necessary, as KOing is not something Shulk has particular trouble with considering he has f smash, up smash, counter, and fair that do that just fine
 

David Viran

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Boost Kick and Shuttle loop have a stark advantage of being able to be stringed into from a U-air combo that will put them closer to the blast zone by the time you do it to have them kill earlier. Otherwise as kill moves shuttle loop has less KB and I'd Boost kick should be in the same situation.

If Shulk had a combo into his Air Slash that put them at the same positions that ZSS and MK can get targets to with a U-air he'd kill quite early with it.
How much kb does air slash have? I know boost kick can kill a average weight character, Wii fit trainer, at 90 percent from the ledge with good DI.
 

Pyr

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How much kb does air slash have? I know boost kick can kill a average weight character, Wii fit trainer, at 90 percent from the ledge with good DI.
  1. Air Slash (first hit)
  2. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/140w 78° Slash
  3. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/135w 91° Slash
  4. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/100w 85° Slash
  5. Frame 12-14: 5% 100f/80w 86° Slash
  6. Frame 12-14: 5% 100f/78w 80° Slash
  7. Frame 15-17: 5% 100f/43w 52° Slash
  8. Frame 15-17: 5% 100f/43w 70° Slash
  9. Max Damage: 6%
  10. Enables state transition on real frame 10
  11. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10
  12. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40
  1. Air Slash (second hit)
  2. Frame 15-16: 5.5% 35b/170g (KO@ 168%) 48° 1.3-Hitlag Slash
  3. Max Damage: 5.5%
From a data dump thread: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Edit: And boost kick for reference:

  1. Boost Kick
  2. Frame 4- 4: 5% 100f/150w 84°
  3. Frame 4- 4: 5% 100f/150w 90°
  4. Frame 10-23: [1.3%]x4 100f/110w 87° 0.0-SDI Aerial-Target-Only
  5. Frame 10-26: [1.3%]x5 100f/110w 87° 0.0-SDI Ground-Target-Only
  6. Frame 24-26: 1.3% 100f/40w 366° 0.0-SDI
  7. Frame 30-30: 1.3% 100f/16w 290° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
  8. Frame 30-30: 1.3% 100f/12w 90° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
  9. Frame 36-37: 4% 50b/220g (KO@ 132%) 50° 2.5-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
  10. Max Damage: 22%
  11. Enables state transition on real frame 4
  12. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 15
  13. Cancels state transition on real frame 46
  14. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 50
 
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TriTails

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It was 19f pre-1.0.4 and it's the standard 22f now, actually. ZSS was the one with the 15f airdodge landing (which is also 22f now).
Wasn't WFT used to has 15f aidodge too?

How much kb does air slash have? I know boost kick can kill a average weight character, Wii fit trainer, at 90 percent from the ledge with good DI.
I do believe Air Slash is weaker.

But then again, lots of Shulk's online don't use that often.

Edit: HOLY CHICKEN STEAK! AIR SLASH HAS 170 KBG!?
 
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Emblem Lord

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Here is what you guys have to understand about Marth and Lucina.

This is a game with ALOT of footsie based chars. And alot of them play for the same space. This includes Marcina. But when you fight Marth and you try to fight him for his space, if you are at 70% or higher you are taking your life in your hands. This is literally the ONLY thing that keeps him in the fight in many of his matches vs chars that can challenge/beat him in range and power like Bowser or Ike.

Vs Lucina that threat is not there. You are not afraid to die at 70% from a tipper f-smash. Yes you still have to deal with quick normals and good disjoints. But getting poked is fine as long as you don't die super early.

A good chunk of Marths matches are even only due to the fact that his unique mechanic demands respect. Lucina loses those point values and comes away with most of her matches being 45/55 or 40/60.

Her gameplan is fine. Her threat level and reward is not. Now combine that with worse advantage on hit( less time to set-up traps or get in a better position) and worse disadvantage on block ( faster characters can get punishes on her that they simply can't get on Marth) and now you see her issue.

Marth is ok. Lucina is ok, but those slight tweaks have negative consequences for her match-up ratios.

She is simply not scary.

Question, has Lucina actually ever scared any of you? Have you ever felt that she did anything that was just nuts?
 
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TriTails

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Scary things about Lucina:
1. Shield Breaker
2. And nothing else

Scary things about Marth:
1. Shield Breaker
2. Tippered fully charged Shield Breaker
3. Tippered fully charged F-smash
4. When you get to 70%-ish

And yeah.
 

TheZyzyva

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Wow, loved the bot 5 talk. Although I suppose a better way of looking at it, given the level of balance, might be "which 5 are you comfortable putting in a bottom 10?"

As far as Lucina goes, I really don't see any practical reason to use her over Marth. She may be 'not terrible' in her own right but why ever use her? It's just not worth it.
 

Blue Ninjakoopa

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Are there matchups that 180 with a custom move or two? For starters I think R.O.B. is +1 against Mega Man with Reflector Arm, and Wii Fit Trainer is +1 against Sonic with Weighted Header.

Here is what you guys have to understand about Marth and Lucina.

This is a game with ALOT of footsie based chars. And alot of them play for the same space. This includes Marcina. But when you fight Marth and you try to fight him for his space, if you are at 70% or higher you are taking your life in your hands. This is literally the ONLY thing that keeps him in the fight in many of his matches vs chars that can challenge/beat him in range and power like Bowser or Ike.

Vs Lucina that threat is not there. You are not afraid to die at 70% from a tipper f-smash. Yes you still have to deal with quick normals and good disjoints. But getting poked is fine as long as you don't die super early.

A good chunk of Marths matches are even only due to the fact that his unique mechanic demands respect. Lucina loses those point values and comes away with most of her matches being 45/55 or 40/60.

Her gameplan is fine. Her threat level and reward is not. Now combine that with worse advantage on hit( less time to set-up traps or get in a better position) and worse disadvantage on block ( faster characters can get punishes on her that they simply can't get on Marth) and now you see her issue.

Marth is ok. Lucina is ok, but those slight tweaks have negative consequences for her match-up ratios.

She is simply not scary.

Question, has Lucina actually ever scared any of you? Have you ever felt that she did anything that was just nuts?
I've been KO'd by forward smashes from Lucina before where I would immediately ask myself "How did you let that connect?" Same with Roy in Melee. Though nothing Lucina has is scary unless the user knows how to do shieldbreaker mixups. With all of her moves apparently being the least safe on shields, conditioning them should be the easiest thing in the world.
 

Pyr

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Are there matchups that 180 with a custom move or two? For starters I think R.O.B. is +1 against Mega Man with Reflector Arm, and Wii Fit Trainer is +1 against Sonic with Weighted Header.
I really think Ganon's everything becomes better with his customs on and helps in most, if not all, his matchups. Doc is apparently a completely different character with them.
 

Quickhero

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Scary things about Lucina:
Scary things about Marth:
1. Shield Breaker
2. Tippered fully charged Shield Breaker
3. Tippered fully charged F-smash
4. When you get to 70%-ish.
Nice list, just forgot to mention pretty damn good setups via frame traps and instead of fully charged replace that with barely charged tippered F-Smash at like 50% and expect a stock to be taken.
 
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Charls

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The only thing scary about Lucina is her in-game model.

But seriously, no hit-lag modifiers on Lucina's sword as a result of no tippers worsens her already very much unsafe footsies. Her shield breaker also loses the tipper effect so it requires some pressure to break shields anyways, pressure that doesn't come easy to her.
 
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NairWizard

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Today I looked at the cast to see who has the best reactive ground game. By this I mean characters who play best when they stay grounded, do not approach, and just wait at midrange for the opponent to make a mistake--so not characters who rely on short hops like Pikachu and Diddy Kong. I went through the roster looking for great jabs, dash attacks, and dash grabs and came up with these characters that have all three (I didn't count the Miis because of size variations, though they conditionally have great frame data) based on my own observations:

:4bowser: :4falcon: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4fox: :4falco: :rosalina: :4greninja: :4jigglypuff: :4littlemac: :4lucario: :4mario: :4gaw: :4ness: :4peach: :4rob: :4sheik::4charizard: :4metaknight: :4yoshi: :4sonic:

From this list, I knocked out Bowser immediately because his frame data wasn't as good as I had thought (his jab has great range though, covering a roll's length almost). I took out Yoshi after some thought too because of the endlag on his dash grab, which makes it slightly less abusable than most others on this list.

Jigglypuff was a really strange case, and I was surprised to see her there. Frame 5 dash attack, frame 8 dash grab, frame 5 jab? All pretty great data. But the worst running and walking speed in the cast? Not as appealing, even if her aerial mobility does mean that she can get to where she wants to be more often than not. Her jab also doesn't have that much range (though it has a deceptive amount of range relative to its animation). So she got cut. Following this reasoning, I cut Peach, Ness, and Lucario as well because of ground mobility, though they were strong contenders.

After reductions, the list had some characters with amazing ground mobility left, so after some thought I cut Game & Watch, Mario, and ROB, though I kept Rosalina and the Pits due to disjoints. I also cut Falco, because while he is awesome and has great walk speed he does have some trouble with his wonky jab sometimes, and his dash attack isn't that great.

Charizard was the last one I cut. Fire Breath is strong, his jab is great, and his dash grab is good despite being frame 10 because his dash speed is great in general and he has huge grab range. Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz also make up for a less-than-stellar dash attack, but the other 10 characters simply seemed better by comparison, so Charizard got cut solely on the basis of being 11th man out. The size was a bit of an issue too, but more on that later.

Thus I had this as my top 10:

:4falcon: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4fox: :rosalina: :4greninja: :4littlemac: :4sheik: :4metaknight: :4sonic:

Reducing the list from this point was harder as all of these characters have fantastic ground games. I noticed, though, that a few characters on the list do better against short hop aerials than others: in particular, Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, and Rosalina (even with her crouch) were cut because of this (it helped that besides Falcon all of them are on the lower end of the mobility spectrum). As amazing as Falcon's and Rosalina's ground games are, it's difficult to overlook how much easier it is to hit them because of their height compared to guys like Meta Knight and Sonic/Fox. This is part of why I had cut Charizard earlier. Also, you'll notice that range ended up mattering less in my estimation than speed, as speed is better for being in a favorable position.

So my final top 5 reactive ground games list, with a dash of subjectivity from yours truly, looks like this:

1. :4littlemac: I'm sure everyone saw this coming. Great mobility specs, great dash attack, great jab, great rolls, great smashes and tilts that all serve jab-like functions--Mac doesn't even need a good dash grab to be #1 in the game in this regard. Shields? Who cares about those?
2. :4metaknight: I have to give it to Metaknight over the characters below, because as @Tagxy pointed out, being resistant to short hop aerials is a really big deal--when your opponent can't short hop against you, it seriously cuts down his options in neutral, giving you a better chance to react to the remaining options. Anyway, his dash attack is great, dash grab is good, run speed is huge, and rolls are great. Having multiple jumps is a boon since he can land precisely where he wants to while avoiding projectile camping. His rapid jab is kind of mediocre, but he doesn't need a great jab to be #2 when he has d-tilt since it's frame 3 (though it's not like you can't use jab at all; it covers spotdodges and landings quite well). Also, f-smash being nearly lagless at the end seals the deal: it gives him a strong spacing tool to punish landings and ledge getups with use of pivots.
2. :4sonic: It's difficult to compare Sonic and Meta Knight on the ground, so I gave them a tie at #2. Meta Knight is harder to hit with SH aerials, it's true, but Sonic during spindash has tiny hurtboxes because his spikes don't count as hurtboxes, so it's a tough call. You have two great spin options as Sonic: you can go for the more damaging punish in side-b or the faster punish in down-b, so the lack of a great dash attack doesn't really matter (and it's not that bad, really). Sonic's placement comes down to this: spindash is just that good. Could easily be slightly better than MK overall, though still worse than Little Mac I think.
4. :4sheik: Really close with Fox, but I put Sheik above him for two reasons: one is that needles are more annoying than lasers for most members of the cast, and two is that Sheik's rolls are far better (among the best in the game, in fact). Other than that, great crouch, semi-crouching frame-5 dash, pivot options--Sheik is great on the ground. Sheik's lack of gentleman jab doesn't matter because her f-tilt is all kinds of crazy. It's worth noting that Sheik not only has one of the best reactive ground games but also one of the best short hop games in the game--so don't let Sheik being 4th on this list fool you; I still think that she's the best character in the game.
5. :4fox: 4-frame dash attack and lasers+reflector basically give him all the control he needs on the ground. His rapid jab is kind of bad, but jab cancels save him here. That plus his general mobility (seriously, have you tried pivoting as Fox? it goes quite far) makes Fox crazy strong on the ground.
Honorable Mention: :4greninja: Greninja just fell to #6 because I think the 5 that are above him are that good. 6th out of this list isn't bad at all, of course, so still a huge threat. Greninja's dash grab range is quite absurd.

So, in conclusion, Little Mac Meta Knight da bess, and you should all go play him right now.
 
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RIP_Lucas

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Are there matchups that 180 with a custom move or two? For starters I think R.O.B. is +1 against Mega Man with Reflector Arm, and Wii Fit Trainer is +1 against Sonic with Weighted Header.



I've been KO'd by forward smashes from Lucina before where I would immediately ask myself "How did you let that connect?" Same with Roy in Melee. Though nothing Lucina has is scary unless the user knows how to do shieldbreaker mixups. With all of her moves apparently being the least safe on shields, conditioning them should be the easiest thing in the world.
WFT v Sonic is still a bad match up even with customs. It's certainly harder, but Sonic still has little difficulty putting pressure on WFT and that's exactly where she does not want to be

Today I looked at the cast to see who has the best reactive ground game. By this I mean characters who play best when they stay grounded, do not approach, and just wait at midrange for the opponent to make a mistake--so not characters who rely on short hops like Pikachu and Diddy Kong. I went through the roster looking for great jabs, dash attacks, and dash grabs and came up with these characters that have all three (I didn't count the Miis because of size variations, though they conditionally have great frame data) based on my own observations:

:4bowser: :4falcon: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4fox: :4falco: :rosalina: :4greninja: :4jigglypuff: :4littlemac: :4lucario: :4mario: :4gaw: :4ness: :4peach: :4rob: :4sheik::4charizard: :4metaknight: :4yoshi: :4sonic:

From this list, I knocked out Bowser immediately because his frame data wasn't as good as I had thought (his jab has great range though, covering a roll's length almost). I took out Yoshi after some thought too because of the endlag on his dash grab, which makes it slightly less abusable than most others on this list.

Jigglypuff was a really strange case, and I was surprised to see her there. Frame 5 dash attack, frame 8 dash grab, frame 5 jab? All pretty great data. But the worst running and walking speed in the cast? Not as appealing, even if her aerial mobility does mean that she can get to where she wants to be more often than not. Her jab also doesn't have that much range (though it has a deceptive amount of range relative to its animation). So she got cut. Following this reasoning, I cut Peach, Ness, and Lucario as well because of ground mobility, though they were strong contenders.

After reductions, the list had some characters with amazing ground mobility left, so after some thought I cut Game & Watch, Mario, and ROB, though I kept Rosalina and the Pits due to disjoints. I also cut Falco, because while he is awesome and has great walk speed he does have some trouble with his wonky jab sometimes, and his dash attack isn't that great.

Charizard was the last one I cut. Fire Breath is strong, his jab is great, and his dash grab is good despite being frame 10 because his dash speed is great in general and he has huge grab range. Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz also make up for a less-than-stellar dash attack, but the other 10 characters simply seemed better by comparison, so Charizard got cut solely on the basis of being 11th man out. The size was a bit of an issue too, but more on that later.

Thus I had this as my top 10:

:4falcon: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4fox: :rosalina: :4greninja: :4littlemac: :4sheik: :4metaknight: :4sonic:

Reducing the list from this point was harder as all of these characters have fantastic ground games. I noticed, though, that a few characters on the list do better against short hop aerials than others: in particular, Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, and Rosalina (even with her crouch) were cut because of this (it helped that besides Falcon all of them are on the lower end of the mobility spectrum). As amazing as Falcon's and Rosalina's ground games are, it's difficult to overlook how much easier it is to hit them because of their height compared to guys like Meta Knight and Sonic/Fox. This is part of why I had cut Charizard earlier.

So my final top 5 reactive ground games list, with a dash of subjectivity from yours truly, looks like this:

1. :4littlemac: I'm sure everyone saw this coming. Great mobility specs, great dash attack, great jab, great rolls, great smashes and tilts that all serve jab-like functions--Mac doesn't even need a good dash grab to be #1 in the game in this regard. Shields? Who cares about those?
2. :4metaknight: I have to give it to Metaknight over the characters below, because as @Tagxy pointed out, being resistant to short hop aerials is a really big deal--when your opponent can't short hop against you, it seriously cuts down his options in neutral, giving you a better chance to react to the remaining options. Anyway, his dash attack is great, dash grab is good, run speed is huge, and rolls are great. Having multiple jumps is a boon since he can land precisely where he wants to while avoiding projectile camping. His rapid jab is kind of mediocre, but he doesn't need a great jab to be #2 when he has d-tilt since it's frame 3 (though it's not like you can't use jab at all; it covers spotdodges and landings quite well). Also, f-smash being nearly lagless at the end seals the deal: it gives him a strong spacing tool to punish landings and ledge getups with use of pivots.
2. :4sonic: It's difficult to compare Sonic and Meta Knight on the ground, so I gave them a tie at #2. Meta Knight is harder to hit with SH aerials, it's true, but Sonic during spindash has tiny hurtboxes because his spikes don't count as hurtboxes, so it's a tough call. You have two great spin options as Sonic: you can go for the more damaging punish in side-b or the faster punish in down-b, so the lack of a great dash attack doesn't really matter (and it's not that bad, really). Sonic's placement comes down to this: spindash is just that good. Could easily be slightly better than MK overall, though still worse than Little Mac I think.
4. :4sheik: Really close with Fox, but I put Sheik above him for two reasons: one is that needles are more annoying than lasers for most members of the cast, and two is that Sheik's rolls are far better (among the best in the game, in fact). Other than that, great crouch, semi-crouching frame-5 dash, pivot options--Sheik is great on the ground. Sheik's lack of gentleman jab doesn't matter because her f-tilt is all kinds of crazy. It's worth noting that Sheik not only has one of the best reactive ground games but also one of the best short hop games in the game--so don't let Sheik being 4th on this list fool you; I still think that she's the best character in the game.
5. :4fox: 4-frame dash attack and lasers+reflector basically give him all the control he needs on the ground. His rapid jab is kind of bad, but jab cancels save him here. That plus his general mobility (seriously, have you tried pivoting as Fox? it goes quite far) makes Fox crazy strong on the ground.
Honorable Mention: Greninja just fell to #6 because I think the 5 that are above him are that good. 6th out of this list isn't bad at all, of course, so still a huge threat.

So, in conclusion, Little Mac Meta Knight da bess, and you should all go play him right now.
My main complaint with this list is that it doesn't quite factor in KO power into it. Shiek relies heavily on edge game to KO, She can slide up smash or bouncing fish, but those are difficult to land without set up and don't always kill until high percents. Similar problems to Fox. And MK, as fast as that f smash is, has KO issues as well due to that F Smash being hard to land other than a hard read.

I agree with your top ten, but Captain Falcon and maybe Greninja might be more deserving to be top 5, and MK might deserve to be slightly lower. Fox and Shiek rely on aerial game a bit too much to be pure reactive ground game.
 
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Saturn_

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I don't think :4myfriends: is bottom tier at all. All of his tilts are very good and versatile and his upsmash is GODLIKE. That move destroys souls. He's slow of foot but he's actually quite mobile in the air and QD gives him good speed when running down a landing. His down throw does true combos at 0- or low-% and practically every move kills. I think his biggest problem is his godawful recovery, since he won't grab the ledge facing the opposite way, which discourages reckless edgeguards.

I think he and :4marth: have a kind of Falco/Fox dynamic going on, to be honest, similar characters that emphasize power and speed, respectively.

For tier lists, I think a character's matchups against the best characters in the meta is more important than anything else. In Melee, :younglinkmelee: is typically rated as the best of the non-viable characters, because he has good matchups with Jigglypuff and Peach. Who cares if bottom tier characters like Mewtwo or Pichu have good matchups with Young Link? What matters is how that character does against the meta, against the characters he or she is most likely to face. If we decide Shulk has an incredible matchup spread except he can't beat Diddy, Shiek, Sonic, or ZSS, that isn't really an argument in favor of Shulk being ranked #1, is it?
 

HeavyLobster

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characters who round out the bottom are like :4myfriends:,:4littlemac:,:4wiifit::4zelda:,:4gaw: imo

ike has bad mobility, is comboed easily, slow, has meh recovery and poor specials. fair is extremely good so he's at the top of the heap i'd say.

mac relies entirely on stupidly hard reads because he has no pressure in neutral. he's basically falcon with no airgame and a worse recovery.

wiifit has horrible range and hitboxes. her only saving grace is being unkillable offstage.

zelda makes no sense to me; she's designed to be a defensive punish character but lacks tools to force/respect approaches.

gnw has a good punish game but can't make up for his horrible neutral, which hurts in a neutral-centric game.
Ike is nowhere near bottom 5. He's way too safe, has a good combo game, and adequate mobility to go with some very nice disjoints. He's mid-tier without customs, and with them he's high-mid to high. He also has MUCH better tourney results than any of the other chars on this list, none of which are genuinely terrible, but no one really is in this game so they are still contenders for bottom 5 due to their flaws. Ike isn't bad at all in Smash 4 and it's annoying when people say that he is.
 

Saturn_

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FWIW...:4gaw:, :4jigglypuff:, and :4wiifit:have never impressed me and I'm almost certain they're non-viable. I really, REALLY like the design of WFT and how she was implemented into the game, I like her levels and the way she can angle a projectile much like Mega Man's saw, but...she just doesn't seem any good. She has very limited kill potential and dies at low percentage. She'll never land the three-hit burying jab combo against like 2/3 of the cast because of how it allows floaty characters to get away, and her up-b is very vulnerable to simple bair/fair setups. I really wish she was good but I don't think she is.

Jigglypuff is the slowest runner and slowest walker in the game, and basically can only approach in the air...in a game in which shields and shielding in general is good and a good strategy. Rest no longer OHKOs and her throws don't combo into Rest. Most characters, especially viable characters, can kill her at 50% with an usmash/fsmash. Rollout is still garbage. Sing is better, I guess? Jigglypuff just seems horrible.

All three of these characters are light, don't have much kill power, and die at very low percentages.
 
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Saturn_

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For tier lists, I think a character's matchups against the best characters in the meta is more important than anything else. In Melee, :younglinkmelee: is typically rated as the best of the non-viable characters, because he has good matchups with Jigglypuff and Peach. Who cares if bottom tier characters like Mewtwo or Pichu have good matchups with Young Link? What matters is how that character does against the meta, against the characters he or she is most likely to face. If we decide Shulk has an incredible matchup spread except he can't beat Diddy, Shiek, Sonic, or ZSS, that isn't really an argument in favor of Shulk being ranked #1, is it?
Carrying on this theme, I think calling :4littlemac:low tier is simply wrong. Little Mac has good matchups against the top characters and made appearances at Apex top 16, including some game wins against aMSa's :4greninja:. I don't like to come out with hard opinions but I think calling Little Mac bottom tier is wrong.
 
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Locke 06

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Here is what you guys have to understand about Marth and Lucina.

Question, has Lucina actually ever scared any of you? Have you ever felt that she did anything that was just nuts?
If Marth wasn't in the game, I think Lucina would do okay. Has she wow'd me? Not really, but a lot of that has to do with characters who don't care about her game plan. I've been on record saying Marcina is a bad MU for Mega and it's not because of tippers, it's due to fast walking speed, range, and option coverage, which Lucina does. When I play DK, I am not scared of anything she does outside of countering my own strength or maybe breaking my shield.

Many characters just don't care about Lucina's strengths. However, some of them do and I think there are enough of those in that population that allow her to be a slightly below average character. The comparisons to Marth, I think, are taken a little too harshly.

Are there matchups that 180 with a custom move or two? For starters I think R.O.B. is +1 against Mega Man with Reflector Arm, and Wii Fit Trainer is +1 against Sonic with Weighted Header.
If you think Mega Man cares about reflector arm, you're playing the wrong Mega Man. I invite a ROB to try and reflect all the 1-2% pellets, metal blades, and crash bomb/ice slashers that get pelted at him without taking a hard punish.

The custom you want to bring up is Skull Barrier, which essentially gives Mega Man a temporary Franklin Badge. It's a very unique reflector. There are mixed feelings about the ROB v Mega Man matchup from the Mega Man side, but with Skull Barrier, I'd say it's solidly in Mega Man's favor.


Other bottom 5 thoughts of those that were mentioned:
:4gaw: - my opinions of the character have changed quite a bit due to some dthrow chain grab shenanigans. There is too much "jank" in this character, especially against the top, to be terribly low.
:4kirby: has some good matchups against the top of the cast, even without customs. Mostly due to his f1 crouching (lol zss) and utilt strings.


And would people stop mentioning Mac's win over Greninja at APEX? Anyone actually watching that match should have seen the multiple missed opportunities to end Mac's life.
 

Kofu

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Are there matchups that 180 with a custom move or two? For starters I think R.O.B. is +1 against Mega Man with Reflector Arm, and Wii Fit Trainer is +1 against Sonic with Weighted Header.
Mega Man still has FAir, BAir, and DTilt to apply pressure to ROB, not to mention his grab since IIRC Reflector Arm doesn't have active hitboxes. People underestimate Mega Man's projectile game since he can cancel most of what he throws out with a single pellet.

But I don't play Mega Man, so I could be wrong. EDIT: lol beaten to the punch

Also Jigglypuff's KO potential is pretty high between BAir, Rest, and FSmash reads. WFT's isn't too shabby with Deep Breathing and she has a great gimping game. Game & Watch I'll give you, but he also is fantastic at gimping and USmash makes him basically invincible during the attack.
 
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Ffamran

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Here is what you guys have to understand about Marth and Lucina.

This is a game with ALOT of footsie based chars. And alot of them play for the same space. This includes Marcina. But when you fight Marth and you try to fight him for his space, if you are at 70% or higher you are taking your life in your hands. This is literally the ONLY thing that keeps him in the fight in many of his matches vs chars that can challenge/beat him in range and power like Bowser or Ike.

Vs Lucina that threat is not there. You are not afraid to die at 70% from a tipper f-smash. Yes you still have to deal with quick normals and good disjoints. But getting poked is fine as long as you don't die super early.

A good chunk of Marths matches are even only due to the fact that his unique mechanic demands respect. Lucina loses those point values and comes away with most of her matches being 45/55 or 40/60.

Her gameplan is fine. Her threat level and reward is not. Now combine that with worse advantage on hit( less time to set-up traps or get in a better position) and worse disadvantage on block ( faster characters can get punishes on her that they simply can't get on Marth) and now you see her issue.

Marth is ok. Lucina is ok, but those slight tweaks have negative consequences for her match-up ratios.

She is simply not scary.

Question, has Lucina actually ever scared any of you? Have you ever felt that she did anything that was just nuts?
As an idiot player who messes around with characters and who only has a 3DS and has no idea how to use either of them aside from tip with Marth and don't screw up with Lucina, yeah, Luci scares me when I'm playing as Marth - Lag too, but that's another story everyone deals with when they're playing online. Marth has to be precise to do much while Luci can consistently do damage if the player knows what they're doing. I don't, so I get screwed over and wonder why Luci is living at 150% and I'm dead at around 100%. Now, if I'm using Falco, Ike, Ganondorf, or someone safer or more familiar to me like Dr. Mario, Mega Man, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, etc., then sure, it's all right, but if I pick Marth and I face Lucina, I'm probably screwed.

Marth has low rewards and high risks that requires so much precision in SSB4. I can't think of any other character that has to be this precise in a fighting game. Zangief? Nah, I shouldn't be throwing out names that I don't know. Maybe someone from Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3...
 
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Saturn_

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Vincent21

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I don't think :4myfriends: is bottom tier at all. All of his tilts are very good and versatile and his upsmash is GODLIKE. That move destroys souls. He's slow of foot but he's actually quite mobile in the air and QD gives him good speed when running down a landing. His down throw does true combos at 0- or low-% and practically every move kills. I think his biggest problem is his godawful recovery, since he won't grab the ledge facing the opposite way, which discourages reckless edgeguards.

I think he and :4marth: have a kind of Falco/Fox dynamic going on, to be honest, similar characters that emphasize power and speed, respectively.

For tier lists, I think a character's matchups against the best characters in the meta is more important than anything else. In Melee, :younglinkmelee: is typically rated as the best of the non-viable characters, because he has good matchups with Jigglypuff and Peach. Who cares if bottom tier characters like Mewtwo or Pichu have good matchups with Young Link? What matters is how that character does against the meta, against the characters he or she is most likely to face. If we decide Shulk has an incredible matchup spread except he can't beat Diddy, Shiek, Sonic, or ZSS, that isn't really an argument in favor of Shulk being ranked #1, is it?
The problem with this is that it feeds bias. Creates an information cascade. The games too young and our information too imperfect. Our top 5, or even top 10 are probably missing a good chunk of sleeper characters, and the meta is still likely to evolve very rapidly. The hope is for our tier list to work toward establishing and finding these oversights, therefore evolving the meta by providing conclusive information on the universal applications of characters which will get the top players playing a different top 5.

I should also include we can't take cues from a game with like over a decade on us because we lack the infrastructure they developed over so much time to make that work. They have their Young Link understanding only because the top characters in Melee have been explored, over several YEARS, SO THROUGHLY, that there is almost no room for doubt, even with the existence of outliers like aMSa and Bizzarro. We lack that kind of concrete understanding of our top characters. And probably will for years.
 
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Pyr

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what the f am I looking at
Any character can kill with a smash, Sonic kills with fsmash. It's secondary kill moves that matter.
You're looking at a combo into rest. A custom rest, but a rest just the same! =D

And ya, everyone can kill with a Smash. That's not the point. The point is that that smash is nearly tied with Ganondorf, who has the highest knockback UpSmash in the game. That, and, thanks to DownB, most of Wii Fit's moves can kill exceptionally early, meaning your statement of low killing power is false.
 
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Bottom 5?

Bowser's in it without customs. Crap throws, everything is laggy as hell, struggles to find kills unless you can land one of his very telegraphed moves, gets combo'd to hell and back (ZSS can dthrow->upB at kill%s and it is guaranteed), and has no good landing options whatsoever and crap air acceleration, so he gets juggled like crazy.

what the f am I looking at
A hard read from the game's signature glass cannon that requires you to catch the opponent off-guard at specific percents with a throw.
 
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Blue Ninjakoopa

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@ Kofu Kofu , @ Locke 06 Locke 06 - Didn't account for skull barrier, but the reflect window of Reflector Arm lasts for a reasonable amount of time, enough to scare Mega Man out of using Crash Bomber all the time and netting KOs with F-smash. Obviously he has other tools, but Crash Bomber is his main item for pressure and getting grabs by forcing shields from my experience. Second to that is Metal Blade, which also gets shut down by Reflector Arm.

I do agree though that it doesn't stop the pellets or any of Mega Man's great non-projectile attacks, and that probably leaves the MU still in Mega Man's favor or even.

And Reflector Arm does have two hitboxes, with an ending one that's about as powerful as the last hit from Brawl Arm Rotor.

Another thing about the R.O.B. Mega Man MU unrelated to customs (kinda) is that d-air spikes rarely work on him thanks to Rush Coil staying around long enough for Mega Man to jump back safely to the ledge. Probably need to play more Blue Bombers, but yeah.

Also, slightly unrelated, Wide Angle Beam isn't that bad, R.O.B. can actually use it to follow up f- and b-throw more freely and it's a better move for sniping, and is the safer option in doubles. I think it has a bit more cooldown than regular Robo Beam, and it doesn't do as much damage (though the difference isn't huge).

@ Pyr Pyr - Doc with Fast Pills and Shocking Cape is cool. Like really cool. I still think standard Tornado and Super Jump Punch are the best options, though Clothesline Tornado is a nice option for edgeguarding and punishing. Still inferior to regular Tornado imo, because it doesn't travel as far vertically, has fewer hitboxes (like 2), and is much slower. I've forgotten all the data since the last time I used Doc with customs was on the 3DS version so correct me if I'm wrong. Same with R.O.B.
 
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