Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

What do we do about the Persistent Pikmin Power Amplification? Here is my thread on it, it has the Youtube link in it.

I suggest we wait and see if it's too bad. If it is, we ban the combination of a reflecting move and Order Tackle. If it's fine, then we do nothing.

What course of action do you guys suggest?

Suggest what. Wait and see is always what you do.
Then you decide whether you want to set the precedent that you a) ban a specific custom b) ban customs in general if you deem it to be a real problem.
No point in even going there till its relevant. What if I have a counter. Actually what if Im shulk and you try to hit me with this Jank and I immediately end your stock via counter.

 

[HeroMystic]

@ Ffamran Stuff like that is exactly what I'm looking for. Since Phantasm can spike and no longer sends you into freefall, I've been somewhat baffled as to why Phantasm isn't used a lot more. It even adds on the benefit of being a mobility option as well.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran Stuff like that is exactly what I'm looking for. Since Phantasm can spike and no longer sends you into freefall, I've been somewhat baffled as to why Phantasm isn't used a lot more. It even adds on the benefit of being a mobility option as well.

What about Fox Illusion? I remember Shofu got a stage spike by accident against Llod's Meta Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFPoO6MpFLg&feature=player_detailpage#t=180.

 

[NairWizard]

Hahaha! I got bodied by @ Antonykun !

I decided to play some games and I saw, "Antonyk...", because the 3DS doesn't show the entire name if it's too long and I was like, "Oh, crap... Is that... I think it is." Of all the characters I don't fight a lot, it's Villager and a good Villager is as rare as a good Little Mac or good anyone on For Glory. Then the match starts and I see Rosalina & Luma and I'm like, "Oh, crap. The other character I rarely see on For Glory and I'm using Ganondorf of all people." When the match started, I was still wondering about if this really was Antonykun. After the match - I lost -, I check the profile and it had "[SB]" and what could "SB" stand for? Smashboards. Switch to Ike after a two matches since I think Ike has a more favorable MU than Ganondorf - I still lose. Then I switch to Falco since he's the only other character I know well and Antonykun switches to Villager with the striped dress and I have no idea what kind of hairstyle that is - triple tails? - and I'm like "Well ****. Of course this happens to me." I get bodied even more.

Oh, dude, I've seen the Antonyk tag on 3ds for glory too. I never made the connection. Heh. Small world.

 

[Ffamran]

Oh, dude, I've seen the Antonyk tag on 3ds for glory too. I never made the connection. Heh. Small world.

I don't know Logic well, but I fought someone under the tag "Logic" and he bodied me except when I was Palutena of all characters and he was Pikachu. I don't think it was the Logic who plays Villager and Diddy, though, since the place listed was not where he was from. That and I don't know if Logic has a 3DS or continues to play SSB4 on the 3DS.

 

[HeroMystic]

What about Fox Illusion? I remember Shofu got a stage spike by accident against Llod's Meta Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFPoO6MpFLg&feature=player_detailpage#t=180.

Fox Illusion doesn't garner as much benefit since it doesn't spike and Fox is very mobile as is. I can see it helping out to make some deep edgeguards though.

As for the stage spike, Fox would probably rather use B-air if he's going for it, since it's much safer. I also believe Smash 4's autosnap mechanics could screw this up too.

 

[wedl!!]

how do people feel about the rosalina vs peach mu? i play both characters and i have problems with it as peach.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't know Logic well, but I fought someone under the tag "Logic" and he bodied me except when I was Palutena of all characters and he was Pikachu. I don't think it was the Logic who plays Villager and Diddy, though, since the place listed was not where he was from. That and I don't know if Logic has a 3DS or continues to play SSB4 on the 3DS.

Yeah, you do occasionally get decent players on FG. I recently ran into @Vermanubis on 3DS For Glory (I play a lot of 3DS because I travel for business and don't have time to sit down with my Wii U on weekdays). Think we went 3:3 or 3:4. I was Mario at first and got amusingly destroyed, so then I switched to Pikachu. Was a fun bunch of matches, other than not being able to tech flame choke under lag (and I'm sure Verm couldn't powershield tjolts in lag either).

 

[warriorman222]

Suggest what. Wait and see is always what you do.
Then you decide whether you want to set the precedent that you a) ban a specific custom b) ban customs in general if you deem it to be a real problem.
No point in even going there till its relevant. What if I have a counter. Actually what if Im shulk and you try to hit me with this Jank and I immediately end your stock via counter.

I'm not saying it was broken> I thought it was assumed that "in the case it's broken", but it wasn't. of course we don't insta-ban things, I'm busy arguing with someone over that on another website.

What I meant what this:"If this ends up broken, what would you suggest?". Right now, I'm just going to spread the word in any ways I can, and say that we wait and see.

 

[TriTails]

I'm curious; which characters are wholly disadvantaged when fighting Little Mac?

Luigi.

Why? Blame the F-tilt.

@ Ffamran Stuff like that is exactly what I'm looking for. Since Phantasm can spike and no longer sends you into freefall, I've been somewhat baffled as to why Phantasm isn't used a lot more. It even adds on the benefit of being a mobility option as well.

Phantasm DOES has a lot of end lag in the air. Whiffing off-stage ain't fun, and you'll need some super duper great predicting to hit them in the air, the place where it truly shines.

D-throw to Phantasm though.

'Get some!' -

 

[Shaya]

He gets BODIED by Rosalina. Like really really badly. So that sucks. I don't think he has any other matchups quite that horrible though fortunately.

I'm not so sure why you think U-air is good in neutral...really not seeing it. Yes crossover U-air and N-air are okay on shield (12 frames landing lag), but when are you ever going to have the time to do that against most players? And while U-air is a good KO move...actually connecting the 2nd hit is really hard to do.

Also Chef does not have extra shield damage, but the Pan + projectile is a total of 9 damage a pop which is a sizeable amount of damage.

I would like F-smash more if it wasn't a frame 17 move that only lasted two frames and also extended G&W's hurtbox forward for the whole duration...not to mention the sweetspot is much harder to land in this game. D-smash is basically the exact same from Brawl with the sourspot having less knockback (but still good damage). U-smash is silly, though I am a little annoyed that it's basically the cornerstone of his gameplan right now.

Yes I agree G&W's Dash Attack is one of the best in the game, and his strong low% grab reward in conjunction with that means he has to be respected in neutral. But really...his extreme low weight is actually a really huge problem both for surviving AND getting KOs. I'm tempted to take Extreme Judge on him just for the sake of abusing Rage boosted F-tilt for KOs...because G&W to be frank honestly suffers a lot from getting the short end of the stick when it comes to Rage.

Three things. Full hop fair. Jab. Dsmashing Luma.

It hits horizontally. And you'd be surprised what you could do with some bacon flying around. Think of up air as your neutral air-alter. Suddenly it either combos into the second hit reliably, or they fall out after the first hit without the windbox getting in the way (which combos into whatever you want). Also for every windbox 2nd hit is an up-b opportunity.

Noted, it does seem particularly good on shield though.

And you still ignore the enhanced movement options that now exist with it -sigh-. I guess Marth fundamentals + this move really sells itself as it is, it's a considerably easier tipper considering the hitbox is 76% larger than the sour spot. I really don't think I've ever seen G&W's dsmash in Brawl hit so high above the ground as it does in this game, but ye ol confirmation bias. Up smash may be the cornerstone of what you have to respect, but heck, it's safe on shield, so why not?

I think that's a little brief. I'd love to hear you give more of your thoughts on Falco and for other people to join in. Does his meta lie in using PP techs, or does he have good enough of a kit to excel with good fundamentals-based play? (ie, is he all-around-GOOD enough to be like Mario, or does he have crippling shortcomings that makes him more sensitive to matchups)

Falco loses to things because his disadvantaged state is pretty bad. And sometimes his jab doesn't work like it should (i.e. when you get PUNISHED FOR IT ON HIT vughhhh).
I would say using universal techs is fundamental-based play.
Fox trot away with Falco and tell me other characters have better options. Just saying ahead of time, you won't be convincing me otherwise. I'll give you Sheik.
When you turn pivot you can slide into any move forward. Jab and down tilt.
His turn pivot makes his pivot jump exceptionally 'fast' in horizontal movement. SH FF with Falco is absurd.

Falco's consistent combo game is the real reason to use him, if I'm going to talk about weaknesses, it's not rewards/follow ups, that's for certain.
Like, Falco's combo game is second only to ZSS in terms of characters I play. Falco has a much easier time getting his grab and his tilts are significantly safer compared to her (bar ftilt, but I'd still say Falco's is better).
Also he has one of the best up airs. In the "let's play horizontal uairs only the game" *qq from Diddy*

Also Falco's explosive laser is was my preferred custom (probably still is, but the slight buffs + match ups like Sheik where you'd like the game to be about her approaching you require it) because it gives him stupid edge guarding pressure and synergises with void reflector and in general is a great frame trap tool. All the weaknesses I just read from people were kinda funny.

 

[Yonder]

Luigi.

Why? Blame the F-tilt.-

Wouldn't go that far. Luigi is disadvantaged thanks to Mac having a stronger up close game, but Luigi still has fireballs that need to be spaced well, able to combo Mac and grab him since Mac HAS to fight close, and of course beats him in the air, along with taking a stock if Mac is off stage, really easy to gimp with Luigi by dair, tornado, fair, etc. F tilt sucks, but you can work around it with precise grabs and fireballs.

I think Mac does well against Rosalina too though.

 

[Vincent21]

I'm just going to say this once:

If you're trying to approach a lucario out of neutral, you're not going to get close enough to do half the things you mentioned. The best option is still to approach into shield, and if you're going to do that, you might as well dash to give them less time to think

Incorrect. Dashing limits your options and Aura Sphere, the other blasty thing, and force palm are all human reaction time. And this is an important point that needs to be understood and where we differentiate from the scenarios involved with, say, Shiek (which gets even more different). Like walking does three things that are fundamental to LM's game

• Move ya forward
• Allow you access to all of your good options (ftilt, powershielding, any smash, etc.)
• Give you more time to react if they press any of their buttons, since you're just punishing them for that.

This is an important point for me to talk up because if you don't understand what's so powerful about this mechanic even with a video example to back it we've not established Little Mac's fundamentals and this conversation realistically goes nowhere.

I know Little Mac is good ground to ground, but that's not something he realistically gets to do nearly as much as you claim, and as I feel I've pointed out pretty strongly, even ground to ground isn't always a favorable match up for him (Sheik, Lucario, and Rosalina can beat him at his own game with low lag spacing tools that out range mac, Sonic and Pikachu can win via aerial approaches, and I'm not even going to talk about just out playing a little mac and edge guarding like a lot of characters can do).

Dude, Shiek loses to Shiek :v if your character doesn't lose to Shiek it's more interesting than if they do. Like they have comparable LM ground speed, needles being basically instant, amazing aerials, throw combos with huges rewards. Yeah no I get it character is a nightmare. Lucario (and arguably Rosaluma, but I lack the true amounts of experience, only like 20 or so friendlies) is not even close to that nightmare. His air speed, way slower and more readable zoning options leave you plenty of room to be patient. Whereas he can whiff a move from half-court and still get punished by LM.

Most high tier characters can handle Little Mac no problem. You keep talking up walking, but that in match ups like Sonic, he doesn't even need to do that (any good sonic will end neutral ASAP via a dash into shield or an aerial approach), he can just stand and wait for them, and he still probably loses.

Didn't say they couldn't. Didn't say he needs to. We're talking about LM v Lucario, aren't we? But the problems LM has regardless were different than you describe.

Basically, Little Mac is not that good. He will win you some matches easy because you have to know how to play against him, and not a ton of people know how to do that, but against a player of equal or higher skill level (basically a tournament), Little Mac is not a great choice to main. He may have use as a counter pick, I really don't know because he far from counters any of my main characters, but he has too many bad match ups with common characters to be a tournament main.

I'd be far more convinced (since you're not wrong on most of your accounts) if you were arguing on his actual strengths and weaknesses. If we were talking about the same character.

Like here we are again. Everyone likes to tell us its as simple as X, Y, and Z that they've done to body most Macs, and calls it a night. When we discuss (and example, I mean this might be a moot harpable point but I'll do it anyway because as an LM player I NEVER get examples that perfect to point to, thanks Vex!) OUTSIDE the vacuum of For Glory it then falls apart because no one knows what we're talking about and think what little we can provide is a fluke.

Is THIS what Olimar players felt like pre-Dabuz? Is this what that's like? It sucks. I'm sorry to all of you.

 

[|RK|]

Incorrect. Dashing limits your options and Aura Sphere, the other blasty thing, and force palm are all human reaction time. And this is an important point that needs to be understood and where we differentiate from the scenarios involved with, say, Shiek (which gets even more different). Like walking does three things that are fundamental to LM's game

• Move ya forward
• Allow you access to all of your good options (ftilt, powershielding, any smash, etc.)
• Give you more time to react if they press any of their buttons, since you're just punishing them for that.

This is an important point for me to talk up because if you don't understand what's so powerful about this mechanic even with a video example to back it we've not established Little Mac's fundamentals and this conversation realistically goes nowhere.



Dude, Shiek loses to Shiek :v if your character doesn't lose to Shiek it's more interesting than if they do. Like they have comparable LM ground speed, needles being basically instant, amazing aerials, throw combos with huges rewards. Yeah no I get it character is a nightmare. Lucario (and arguably Rosaluma, but I lack the true amounts of experience, only like 20 or so friendlies) is not even close to that nightmare. His air speed, way slower and more readable zoning options leave you plenty of room to be patient. Whereas he can whiff a move from half-court and still get punished by LM.



Didn't say they couldn't. Didn't say he needs to. We're talking about LM v Lucario, aren't we? But the problems LM has regardless were different than you describe.



I'd be far more convinced (since you're not wrong on most of your accounts) if you were arguing on his actual strengths and weaknesses. If we were talking about the same character.

Like here we are again. Everyone likes to tell us its as simple as X, Y, and Z that they've done to body most Macs, and calls it a night. When we discuss (and example, I mean this might be a moot harpable point but I'll do it anyway because as an LM player I NEVER get examples that perfect to point to, thanks Vex!) OUTSIDE the vacuum of For Glory it then falls apart because no one knows what we're talking about and think what little we can provide is a fluke.

Is THIS what Olimar players felt like pre-Dabuz? Is this what that's like? It sucks. I'm sorry to all of you.

For me personally, For Glory heavily skewed my opinion of Little Mac. Wasn't till I played good Macs that I understood. I actually don't use my Lucario against LMs, but I don't CP chars too often anyway. Kirby suffices.

 

[Nobie]

I think I've said this earlier in this thread, but I wonder if part of the reason people haven't taken to Falco well (aside from him possibly not being that great of a character) is that he's gone from being a character full of specific powerful tools in the previous games (instant spike, chain grab, pillar combos) to being a kind of no-frills, fundamentals-oriented character. All of the people who fell in love with the old Falcos recognize nothing of him in his new incarnation and assume he has nothing left.

As for Lucario vs. Little Mac, I don't use either character, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've assumed that Little Mac has the advantage, though Lucario shouldn't be helpless. The main things that have me think that the match is in Little Mac's favor are 1) Little Mac's swift frame data + armor exploiting Lucario's best kill moves 2) KO Punch.

In terms of the first point, it's been said over and over that Lucario's actual weakness is that the attacks that benefit most from Aura tend to have some issue like long cooldown that can be exploited, and here you have Little Mac with his ability to power through attacks with smashes and that insane forward tilt that can KO close to the edge.

As for KO Punch, while it's an issue all characters have to deal with, the fact that you have the potential to end Lucario's stock at 30%, waaaaay before Aura even becomes a real factor, is something that can't be ignored. All characters have to be a little afraid of KO Punch, but the move, if it connects of course, seems almost designed to derail Lucario's gameplan.

 

[TriTails]

Wouldn't go that far. Luigi is disadvantaged thanks to Mac having a stronger up close game, but Luigi still has fireballs that need to be spaced well, able to combo Mac and grab him since Mac HAS to fight close, and of course beats him in the air, along with taking a stock if Mac is off stage, really easy to gimp with Luigi by dair, tornado, fair, etc. F tilt sucks, but you can work around it with precise grabs and fireballs.
I think Mac does well against Rosalina too though.

All LM has to do against Luigi is F-tilt and smashes (Preferably D-smash) and KABOOM! Suddenly nothing Luigi can do is safe because:
1. D-smash has super armor, and Luigi's shield takes too much KB
2. F-tilt eats Fireballs, as well as holding jab
3. His smashes tanks Cyclone
4. Luigi's grab is F6 while his dash grab is F8, meanwhile, LM has F4 Ftilt to eat through it all

At least, what I see now. Hey, I think Cyclone beats F-tilt, and F-tilt MAYBE can be spotdodged and we can jab throuh the end lag (Even if LM has F1 jab, the end lag shouldn't let him do so before Luigi), and getting a jab = free grab = free damage = free KOs.

Though, thatbis a big fat maybe. Can anyone check if Luigi's B-air is disjointed?

Because if it is, he is going to PLOW through that F-tilt.

 

[meleebrawler]

The Falco boards are currently discussing Peach matchup. IMO Falco has a better
keepaway game through his specials that outrange and outmaneuver Peach's, but
Peach can get some mean combos at low percents and generally gets more reward for her spacing
moves. Disadvantage for Falco, but his specials go a long way to disrupting Peach's float game.
Gets better for him with Void Reflector obviously.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I feel like peach has an easier time in this game because of how his projectiles changed. I haven't played a falco yet, I only know how to play as falco in this game.

 

[Kofu]

I figure @ NairWizard will get a kick out of this. I played a Pikachu player on For Glory last night whose fundamental strategy consisted entirely of Thunder Jolt, Quick Attack, and FSmash. For the first few matches, those were practically the only moves he used. Eventually he mixed it up more and started using other attacks (most notably DTilt) but he still used a lot of the main three attacks. It was irritating to play against, though not insurmountable by any means. I won most of the matches, really only losing a few when I picked characters that I don't often use. My point in bringing this up here is that while I felt more threatened by his other attacks, his use of Quick Attack was one of the best I've seen. I can definitely see Pikachu as a top tier threat once players are able to master the repositioning with Quick Attack and using the appropriate move to follow up. His strategy was a little too brain dead to be much of a challenge for me.

 

[TriTails]

How a Pikachu does a match:
Pika-CHU! Pika-CHU! (Repeat for about ten million times)
Pik! Pik!
Pika! BRZZT!
PIKA! BLARTZ!

How he recovers:
Piiiiii........KA!
Pik! Pik!

How he taunts:
Pika! Pikaa!
Pikaaaaaa.....

Oh, how I remember the things.

Anyway, lots of FG players seem to not whiif Quick Attack now. So they finally learned that holding the button is better than timing the press?

Oh, and anyone feel that U-smash is a little bit too stronk?

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Incorrect. Dashing limits your options and Aura Sphere, the other blasty thing, and force palm are all human reaction time. And this is an important point that needs to be understood and where we differentiate from the scenarios involved with, say, Shiek (which gets even more different). Like walking does three things that are fundamental to LM's game

• Move ya forward
• Allow you access to all of your good options (ftilt, powershielding, any smash, etc.)
• Give you more time to react if they press any of their buttons, since you're just punishing them for that.

This is an important point for me to talk up because if you don't understand what's so powerful about this mechanic even with a video example to back it we've not established Little Mac's fundamentals and this conversation realistically goes nowhere.



Dude, Shiek loses to Shiek :v if your character doesn't lose to Shiek it's more interesting than if they do. Like they have comparable LM ground speed, needles being basically instant, amazing aerials, throw combos with huges rewards. Yeah no I get it character is a nightmare. Lucario (and arguably Rosaluma, but I lack the true amounts of experience, only like 20 or so friendlies) is not even close to that nightmare. His air speed, way slower and more readable zoning options leave you plenty of room to be patient. Whereas he can whiff a move from half-court and still get punished by LM.



Didn't say they couldn't. Didn't say he needs to. We're talking about LM v Lucario, aren't we? But the problems LM has regardless were different than you describe.



I'd be far more convinced (since you're not wrong on most of your accounts) if you were arguing on his actual strengths and weaknesses. If we were talking about the same character.

Like here we are again. Everyone likes to tell us its as simple as X, Y, and Z that they've done to body most Macs, and calls it a night. When we discuss (and example, I mean this might be a moot harpable point but I'll do it anyway because as an LM player I NEVER get examples that perfect to point to, thanks Vex!) OUTSIDE the vacuum of For Glory it then falls apart because no one knows what we're talking about and think what little we can provide is a fluke.

Is THIS what Olimar players felt like pre-Dabuz? Is this what that's like? It sucks. I'm sorry to all of you.

I think we're both insultingly simplifying each other's arguments, so I'm going to just leave this last point and be done

As good as lm's ground options are (I'm not arguing that), walking does not solve his other problems (complete lack of air game and next to zero recovery). Good players can handle LM's ground game long enough to get a punish and make you hurt.

Maybe it's just that I main high tier characters, but I still have nothing to fear from little mac

Oh yeah, and there were inklings of olimar pre dabuz, but just like marth and ken in melee, it usually takes a high profile win for a character to get any respect. The only little mac match I've seen at the highest level was little mac getting absolutely bodied by 6WX, so of course I don't respect him. If you want to prove little mac's greatness, why not try to be the next dabuz or Ken? I'm not suggesting trying to win evo or something, just use little mac at tournaments you go to and hope other people see it and decide to pick him up too. Maybe walking mac will catch on and I'll be force fed some humble pie.

All I can do is go off experience, and that says little mac is one dimensional and somewhat predictable, and I'm sticking to that, but I'd love being proven wrong

 

[Nocally]

How a Pikachu does a match:
Pika-CHU! Pika-CHU! (Repeat for about ten million times)
Pik! Pik!
Pika! BRZZT!
PIKA! BLARTZ!

How he recovers:
Piiiiii........KA!
Pik! Pik!

How he taunts:
Pika! Pikaa!
Pikaaaaaa.....

Oh, how I remember the things.

Anyway, lots of FG players seem to not whiif Quick Attack now. So they finally learned that holding the button is better than timing the press?

Oh, and anyone feel that U-smash is a little bit too stronk?

Don't know what you mean by the FG players holding the button instead of timing the press.

And nope, U-smash is not strong enough

 

[Terotrous]

Geez, 14 pages of discussion since I last posted here? I'm not even going to try this time. I see people discussing Customs and that Shockwave ran customs in their last weekly, so I'll watch that and jump back in later if I have any relevant thoughts.

 

[warionumbah2]

We've been sleeping on MK in singles but the biggest crime is how much people ignore his power in doubles.

He's got the air covered with his Uair into shuttle loop. He's got decent air mobility, good rolls i think one of the best ones,6 jumps and a teleporting move to tank stocks.

Mach Tornado can literally spoon feed Luigi and ZSS some early kills with their Down B/Up B.

The explosion of his up throw after he crashes down kill early. Great dash attack to back his teammates up and start combo's. Sexy off stage game and a wonderful down throw that's easy as hell to follow up from.

And a spammy F-Smash that kills around 80% or lower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59jJ2qWflCg <--- 25seconds in and Mr Nintendo dies


Edit: Singles match may as well skip the first game since its Diddy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_gobvrkGxI

 

[Ffamran]

Fox trot away with Falco and tell me other characters have better options. Just saying ahead of time, you won't be convincing me otherwise. I'll give you Sheik.
When you turn pivot you can slide into any move forward. Jab and down tilt.
His turn pivot makes his pivot jump exceptionally 'fast' in horizontal movement. SH FF with Falco is absurd.

Also Falco's explosive laser is was my preferred custom (probably still is, but the slight buffs + match ups like Sheik where you'd like the game to be about her approaching you require it) because it gives him stupid edge guarding pressure and synergises with void reflector and in general is a great frame trap tool. All the weaknesses I just read from people were kinda funny.

Is there a study on how effective certain character's foxtrots are? I know there's a thread on movement, but I don't see/notice foxtrots and other movements like Mega Man using a pivot Side Smash or Ike's Ftilt, but that might be because not a lot of players use them. I just met a Lucina player who used foxtrots while I was messing around with Marth. How and why it's used, I don't know.

Hell, people don't RAR with Falco a lot from what I see. Also, I don't see people do run off Uairs and Fairs - Zionaze just mentioned it yesterday. I just made the connection of run off Ganondorf and Captain Falcon Uairs and someone probably knows about it, but never mentioned it or don't know about Smashboards or never got noticed because their gameplay doesn't get recorded/watched.

I might make a thread on Falco's foxtrot, but I don't know enough about foxtrots.

 

[HeavyLobster]

We've been sleeping on MK in singles but the biggest crime is how much people ignore his power in doubles.

He's got the air covered with his Uair into shuttle loop. He's got decent air mobility, good rolls i think one of the best ones,6 jumps and a teleporting move to tank stocks.

Mach Tornado can literally spoon feed Luigi and ZSS some early kills with their Down B/Up B.

The explosion of his up throw after he crashes down kill early. Great dash attack to back his teammates up and start combo's. Sexy off stage game and a wonderful down throw that's easy as hell to follow up from.

And a spammy F-Smash that kills around 80% or lower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59jJ2qWflCg <--- 25seconds in and Mr Nintendo dies

I can attest first-hand to MK's still being a threat in both singles and doubles. He's a great partner for many characters in doubles, especially heavies.

 

[Antonykun]

I kinda wish more people would hop off the Diddy bandwagon not because he's OP/boring/whatever (he's really not he can be a joy to watch actually) but because there's probably is a character who does their playstyle better.

 

[warionumbah2]

I can attest first-hand to MK's still being a threat in both singles and doubles. He's a great partner for many characters in doubles, especially heavies.

Hmm i don't think he clicks well with Bowser(actually a doubles video of this combination) and Charizard but Ganondorf is perfect. He doesn't need MK to hold his hand the whole match and he's got some deadly follow ups out of MK's down throw, its the simple fact that his aerials are far better than other heavies no matter which way he's facing.

Down throw --> Ganon stands and waits then hits em with a fair/bair heck even uair. He's got that safe U-Smash and Side B into Dtilt to seal the kill. And his off stage game is better, would like to see this team actually only played with Ganondorf on my team once and it was enjoyable.

 

[Antonykun]

@ warionumbah2 got me to watch more of tyrant and man his MK is super good. The fact that he is actually a Diddy main reminds me of Pokemon XY/early ORAS where Greninja is the best Ice type pokemon despite being a Water/Dark mon.

 

[Thinkaman]

I kinda wish more people would hop off the Diddy bandwagon not because he's OP/boring/whatever (he's really not he can be a joy to watch actually)

I think Diddy is extraordinarily straightforward (I wouldn't go so far as to say "simple"), but is quite interesting to play against or watch. More than Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Pikachu, and Fox. About the same as Yoshi, Ness, Mario, and Luigi. Not as fun as Falcon, Ganon, or Palutena.

I played a lot of matches last night, and had some personal conclusions: (Many/most of these are affirmations of previously held or common beliefs, as one would expect.)

• MK is definitely Mac's worse matchup. No one else is probably close.
• Smashville is definitely awful for Mac, way worse than Battlefield. Battlefield really isn't that bad.
• Unless Mac needs Jolt Haymaker as an anti-projectile approach in a matchup, Grounding Blow's recovery flexibility makes it the best option.
• I think Mac probably beats Ganon, but only slightly. D-tilt and choke help a lot. Ganon needs Wizard's Dropkick, since Wizard's Foot is punishable by f-smash while the former essentially isn't.
• Link's customs continue to not seem that great to me. I just never get any payoff from Meteor Bombs. Boomerang is legit though.
• Ditto on Meta Knight. I just don't get High-Speed Drill; it's like a bad Dragon Rush. Dreadful Tornado is solid, but that's it.
• Ditto on Marth/Lucina. I could not get Crescent Slash to work for me at all.
• Yeah, Marth really is significantly better than Lucina.
• Bowser Jr. really should run X313 in most matchups. It's just simply the best.
• Bowser Jr. has a rough matchup against Sonic. I wouldn't be surprised if it is his worst.
• Rosalina is a great character. (Stop the presses, I know.) Luma Warp is a useful offensive tool, but overusing it is complete suicide.
• Kong Cyclone is all but useless in the neutral.
• Diddy is fun and easy to pick up. Battering Banana Peel is... of dubious merit.
• Zelda is, yeah, almost surely the worst character. But she's several steps above awful, and Phantom Strike really does help her non-trivially. She just provides zero pressure.
• I had trouble as Palutena against Fox. Basically impossible to get uairs against, and I had trouble chasing his nimble jumps out of Super Speed.
• The control and pressure of Bouncing Gordo probably is DDD's best option. They are not very practical to hit back at him, unlike the defaults.
• Leaping Rest is legit. Pound Blitz is very dubious.
• Falcon is probably Mac's best matchup, but it's not too bad for Falcon. Not with that dash grab.
• So... I played some games as Villager with normal and Timber Counter. The stage control of the sapling was nice, especially around ledges, but didn't make much of a difference in the neutral. Across several games, my opponent never got hit by it once--I definitely felt the advantage it gave me, but I struggled to directly convert it into anything tangible. Meanwhile, in the other games, I got multiple kills with the axe. Possible explaination: These games were all on Battlefield, where the sapling is perhaps at its weakest.
• I know I've said this before, but man: I can't emphasize enough how much Jumbo Hoops saves WFT. You WILL get wrecked if you overuse it or don't space carefully, though.

 

[Lavani]

• Ditto on Meta Knight. I just don't get High-Speed Drill; it's like a bad Dragon Rush. Dreadful Tornado is solid, but that's it.

Do you feel Dreadful Tornado is worth giving up his default tornado for? Supposedly it's a nice choice for KOing, but he has KO options at or below those percents already and it does 10% less damage. I feel the damage racking is much more valuable to his kit, as well as the ability to shieldstab taller characters like Rosalina (I assume Dreadful Tornado doesn't have the same shield pressuring capabilities).

I can easily agree that 1111 is MK's best set, at any rate.

 

[warionumbah2]

If you get rid of default nado I'll cyber smack you in the face.

 

[Thinkaman]

Do you feel Dreadful Tornado is worth giving up his default tornado for? Supposedly it's a nice choice for KOing, but he has KO options at or below those percents already and it does 10% less damage, I feel the damage racking is much more valuable to his kit, as well as the ability to shieldstab taller characters like Rosalina (I assume Dreadful Tornado doesn't have the same shield pressuring capabilities).

I can easily agree that 1111 is MK's best set, at any rate.

So Dreadful Tornado does bonkers base knockback. This means it is an especially valuable kill move on stages with tighter blast zones.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'm curious; which characters are wholly disadvantaged when fighting Little Mac?

Fox loses to him, in my experience. This is the matchup I play the most, one of my training partners is a Mac main.

Fox loses the ground game vs him. Mac is a tad faster in the ground (faster dashing speed, slower walking speed), has a faster jab, better range (or rather, his step him forward), and great defensive options in his counter and Smash Attacks to keep him anchored to the ground, something Fox doesn't want as he'd rather pop his opponent in the air.

This is one of those matchups where building damage is risky thanks to Rest Punch. Since Fox is really good at building damage... well, you do the math. Basically: Fox at 20% and Little Mac at 80% with the punch means you're both at KO percent.

Fox's offstage game in this Smash is also awful, though he can run off with N-air to gimp him since Mac's recovery is so bad. Fox can also get him with D-smash, which comes out on both sides and actually KO him earlier than U-smash because of his terrible recovery and low angle of D-smash, so I suppose there's that.

 

[Antonykun]

OK @ Thinkaman man Imma have to call you out on this but when I became a Swordfighter main you said they were the worst characters. Now it's Zelda. What changed your mind.

 

[TheZyzyva]

OK @ Thinkaman man Imma have to call you out on this but when I became a Swordfighter main you said they were the worst characters. Now it's Zelda. What changed your mind.

Customs most likely I'd guess.

But speaking of bottom characters, do you think we can make a consensus bottom 5, like we have (nearly) at the top? Zelda and SF are probably sure bets but then who? Before Shaya posted I would have included G&W due to his weight but now I'm not sure. Is there anyone else that is inarguably "not good"? (Since bad is mostly not true for this smash)

 

[Nu~]

Customs most likely I'd guess.

But speaking of bottom characters, do you think we can make a consensus bottom 5, like we have (nearly) at the top? Zelda and SF are probably sure bets but then who? Before Shaya posted I would have included G&W due to his weight but now I'm not sure. Is there anyone else that is inarguably "not good"? (Since bad is mostly not true for this smash)

That's...pretty hard
Maybe? Then again, I'm still not sure

 

[Thinkaman]

OK @ Thinkaman man Imma have to call you out on this but when I became a Swordfighter main you said they were the worst characters. Now it's Zelda. What changed your mind.

Swordfighter dair being a legitimately great move, mostly.

 

[TheZyzyva]

That's...pretty hard
Maybe? Then again, I'm still not sure

What is it really about the Doc that makes him so bad? Is his mobility that terrible next to Mario's? Like how can Mario be good and his clone be awful, especially when the clone has the superior D-b?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Swordfighter dair being a legitimately great move, mostly.

it was just the D-air?