Character Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

greninja has a great power:speed ratio. has plenty of kill setups, and does have a decent combo game.

 

[Ulevo]

greninja has a great power:speed ratio. has plenty of kill setups, and does have a decent combo game.

Illuminate me on these kill set ups. What are some reliable combos he can use on most characters.

 

[HeroMystic]

greninja has a great power:speed ratio. has plenty of kill setups, and does have a decent combo game.

You just described Luigi, except Luigi's combo game is legitimately insane.

 

[warionumbah2]

greninja has a great power:speed ratio. has plenty of kill setups, and does have a decent combo game.

Lets be honest, all of this can be said about MK but instead MK has better combo's.

 

[Smog Frog]

You just described Luigi, except Luigi's combo game is legitimately insane.

Luigi's fast? What?

 

[Ulevo]

Lets be honest, all of this can be said about MK but instead MK has better combo's.

Yeah. If someone described this as a character, but didn't mention their name, I would be thinking of Meta Knight, not Greninja.

 

[Smog Frog]

?meta knight has a great power speed ratio? what?

 

[⑨ball]

?meta knight has a great power speed ratio? what?

I'm honestly not sure if you're kidding about this or not.

 

[warionumbah2]

He's got the 9th fastest dash in the game, F-Smash can kill around 80% and sweetspot killing 10% sooner, not to mention how safe the move is to the point where you can whip it out in neutral without getting punished.

His kill power got buffed from Brawl and Mach Tornado does 22% if you're a God at mashing. His frame data is actually pretty good, jab and ftilt are butt cheeks(frame 7 and 6 ew) but dtilt comes out at frame 3 which is as fast as Greninja's jab.

Not only is his mobility good but he's got attack speed and raw power to boot. Can kill RosaLuma at 85% with no rage if that ain't power then good lord Greninja must be a powerhouse.

 

[the king of murder]

You just described Luigi, except Luigi's combo game is legitimately insane.

But Greninja has a better mobility, therefore can get in a lot better.

 

[Smog Frog]

I'm honestly not sure if you're kidding about this or not.

i mean i know he's pretty mobile, but i'm not quite sold on the power.

 

[Ulevo]

?meta knight has a great power speed ratio? what?

Yes, yes he does. Meta Knight's damage is poor overall, but his kill potential is good. Shuttle Loop can kill really early out of combos, Nair is relatively safe and can be used out of frame traps or while in edge guard situations, and forward smash is basically not punishable. He has other issues though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

MK remains unexplored due to the fact that he simply isn't a bullet train anymore.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Luigi's fast? What?

If we're talking frame data, yes, easily.

His general mobility is a different thing entirely, though.

 

[Ulevo]

But Greninja has a better mobility, therefore can get in a lot better.

But what does that account for? That's what I'm asking. Greninja has a fast dash. Alright. What does that give him?

Compare him to Captain Falcon. Captain Falcon, along with having a great dash, run speed and decent aerial mobility has a lot of safe moves to use like Uair and Nair. He has a good grab game that leads to combos and frame traps, and he is not only able to create situations that lead to hard reads, but is also able to punish hard reads really well. So basically he is rewarded for the offensive pressure his speed gives him.

What benefits does Greninja have for being quick? As far as I can see, not a whole lot. And while his moves might KO fine, they don't look like they are reliable or easy to land.

 

[FullMoon]

Illuminate me on these kill set ups. What are some reliable combos he can use on most characters.

Nair -> Up-Smash, D-tilt -> Up Smash, Charged Shuriken -> F-air and if you get an airdodge read, d-throw -> Up Smash. Those options can all kill very early, plus there are others that are harder to land but can still be pretty lethal like Dash Attack -> F-Air and Up-Throw -> U-Air at higher percentages. Proper use of Hydro Pump also can make any character Up-Smash or F-Smash bait.

Plus Greninja does make great use of his mobility due to the fact that he can get into an opponent's face very quickly, has an amazing dash-grab to completement his speed, can chase opponents in the air very effectively and juggle them very well. Plus Substitute can get kills at ridículous percentages if rage is involved, and even then most of the cast die below 100% to Sub with no rage.

Greninja has a great combo game, he only has trouble actually getting those combos started due to how much he has to commit, but if you aren't careful, Greninja can kill you much earlier than most speedster characters can.

 

[Ulevo]

MK remains unexplored due to the fact that he simply isn't a bullet train anymore.

To be honest there's not much to explore. He's a good character shackled by one or two things. His dash grab and dash attack, while really really good, are his only reliable ways of approaching safely. Good players acknowledge this and punish accordingly. When a player doesn't understand this then he deceptively seems like a much better character than he actually is. I'm quite sure that if his Fair had the same landing lag as it did in Brawl he'd be much better.

 

[Nairo]

I also noticed they got out of ZSS's Up-B very frequently. I'm not sure if it was SDI or Nairo using bad placement.

It was both I believe.

 

[Emblem Lord]

SDI doesn't exist though.

Or am I incorrect?

 

[Ulevo]

It was both I believe.

Nairo, what do you think of Zelda. My roommate is interested in her so I'm curious about her potential. I've watched you via stream and YouTube and the stuff you're pulling off, while impressive, seems like it'd be pretty unreliable given a player that understands her more. i.e. DIing Up B kill set ups. Do you think you could keep replicating your relative success, and where would you place her as a character?

 

[Phenomiracle]

SDI doesn't exist though.

Or am I incorrect?

It exists, just not to the capacity it was in Brawl.

 

[HeroMystic]

But Greninja has a better mobility, therefore can get in a lot better.

Completely true.

Luigi's aerial speed is terrible. However, his ground speed is pretty good while Cyclone makes up for his shortcomings. His attack speed is the fastest in this game only rivaled by Mario, Fox, and Sheik. If we're talking Power:Speed ratio, Luigi is actually pretty good, even if his mobility is unfavorable (and frankly it's the only reason why he's not top tier).

 

[StripedNinja]

If we're going to do tier lists, here's my random assorted thoughts based mainly on what everyone else is saying that have no real significance but give people an excuse to complain. This is the no-customs meta. I'm not counting Miis because I don't have enough experience with them. Also note that whenever I'm not sure about a character's placement I just put it somewhere in C tier.
S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B:
C:
D:
E:

I'm curious as to what you think Olimars weaknesses are that you should put him so low?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I think these lists are largely BS. I won't trust any list until we get 6 months into it.

 

[StripedNinja]

I think these lists are largely BS. I won't trust any list until we get 6 months into it.

They aren't bs but also no ones saying to trust them. We're just sharing opinions so we can discuss them and get the best idea of what's accurate

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm curious as to what you think Olimars weaknesses are that you should put him so low?

I admit I'm not an expert on Olimar, but he just feels a bit underwhelming to me. He's probably a bit better than that and closer to C tier, but I'm not super impressed with his damage output. I will say he's not awful, but I don't like his recovery and his reward feels underwhelming. I kind of lumped him in with other characters that people were down on, but I don't think he's particularly bad. Keep in mind that I said these lists were largely meaningless and placement of any character I haven't seen much on FG, in tourney play, or I don't play myself are largely arbitrary. I honestly kind of just threw Olimar in there, and largely mailed in everything below the top 12.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK can also approach from the air while camping above with dair, if the opponent has their shield up he can fast fall and use Nado. Even if they shield Nado it'll poke the living day lights out of their shield.

Its harder to do on short characters and dangerous to do against the Mario trio who's U-Smashes are really good at beating aerial moves. And on the topic of people understanding his approach options same can be said for C.Falcon, he approaches with DA, Dash grab and SH Nairs we know his approach options but does that discredit how good he is?

Although his character by design is simple people have yet to fully master him due to how demanding he is especially at a competitive level. His MU across the board is really good but its just that Sonic walks all over him and Sonic is pretty frequent in tournaments. He's the only obstacle that MK cannot overcome no matter how on point you are on your strings, only MU in the game that screams 'get a secondary'. :[

MK main weakness is his weight and range.

 

[HeroMystic]

I do agree Metaknight is pretty good in this game. I didn't expect Sonic to be his counter though. Why is that?

 

[Terotrous]

You just described Luigi, except Luigi's combo game is legitimately insane.

And that's why Luigi is higher than Greninja on most of these lists. Note though that Greninja is definitely more mobile than Luigi.

 

[⑨ball]

Completely true.

Luigi's aerial speed is terrible. However, his ground speed is pretty good while Cyclone makes up for his shortcomings. His attack speed is the fastest in this game only rivaled by Mario, Fox, and Sheik. If we're talking Power:Speed ratio, Luigi is actually pretty good, even if his mobility is unfavorable (and frankly it's the only reason why he's not top tier).

That and the power vacuum. A lot of characters that'd otherwise sit solidly in mid are free to run wild with swordsmen being neutered.

As for the tier lists, I think Seagull Joe's was the closest to being accurate, especially considering that they weren't ordered in between. I say especially because I've noticed that there aren't a lot of polarizing matchups this game, or at least this early in. You'll see a lot of evens, +1s and +2, but nothing that outright makes characters unviable. I think that tiers are going to be much closer this time around and we should grow less and less surprised when new players arrive on the scene doing well with under used characters.

 

[warionumbah2]

I do agree Metaknight is pretty good in this game. I didn't expect Sonic to be his counter though. Why is that?

His spin dash gets beaten by Nado and Nair all which have end lag so its a high risk low reward setting(unless you go with Nado its high reward since this does a lot of damage). All the Sonic player has to do is bait us then punish, Sonics Ftilt comes out fast and out ranges all of MK ground options. He can spring jump out of combo's so we can't rely on airdodge punishments.

Its like we gotta play his game, his back throw in rage kills MK below 100%, due to his range on uair its difficult to get a punish after Sonic spin jumps after touching my shield. Approaching is dangerous since he can spin at us instantly, DA can sometimes clank with SD but Sonic can ftilt us away ALL THE TIME. That's why i consider range a weakness only dtilt comes out faster than Sonic's ftilt but it doesn't reach in that situation.

Sonic becomes almost impossible to gimp if the player knows about the spin jump tech, he'll be too high to attack and Sonic can easily change his landing via spin dash if we decide to shark him.

 

[RWB]

I was also going to say that I mostly agreed but the more I read it the more issues I had with it. In the end I think I'll just post my own list. Why not, last chance to be wrong before Apex.


Not ordered. Miis are assumed to have all customs available. All others have customs off. Hopefully I didn't forget any characters.

APEX only allows 1111 builds. DaPuffster actually demanded a refund after being told 2222 and 3333 would be allowed.

Just felt I should mention that.

 

[Terotrous]

APEX only allows 1111 builds. DaPuffster actually demanded a refund after being told 2222 and 3333 would be allowed.

Just felt I should mention that.

I know, but I don't feel like attempting to try to place the Miis with 1111 builds. It's a trivial exercise since no other tournament uses those rules.

By the same token, we should actually be bumping bowser up a bit in Apex rules since Bowsercide is counted as a win for bowser now. Apex be crazy.

 

[HeroMystic]

Apex's rules on Custom Miis were really, really dumb. To say the least. As I said before, it's either all or nothing.

-Stuff about Sonic-

Thanks for this. Looking at it now, it's looking like Sonic is becoming the Gatekeeper for tournaments. According to the Falcon mains in my area, Sonic hard counters Falcon as well. So I'm wondering how polarizing Sonic's MUs are.

 

[Nu~]

has so much potential. I could see him going to high tier in the future. If only he had reliable kill setups.

Agreed. Right now, we're actually working on many traps that setup into kills. The bell is disgusting. Stealing kills at about 80-90%...and we are finding ways to guarantee that it hits.
Now with customs like power pac jump and freaky fruit, we're talking about some really good kill setups (power pac jump can kill off the top at around 100%. Freaky strawberry pulls opponents towards us, during hitstun, to eat a charged inky or blinky)

Too bad they may not be legal for a while

 

[Seagull Joe]

Are you still taking questions/comments, @ Seagull Joe ? 'Cause I'm wondering...why do you feel D3 sits at the top of mid? I don't disagree (per se, I'd knock him down a couple of pegs in that tier) but I'm just curious as to your thoughts.

whoops missed the "un-ordered" memo

Still, I wanna know how you feel about D3.

Smooth Criminal

I think he's alright. He's mid tier at the moment. He loses combo ability the more he's in rage. And Gordo's get sent back by a flick.

 

[Firefoxx]

I know, but I don't feel like attempting to try to place the Miis with 1111 builds. It's a trivial exercise since no other tournament uses those rules.

By the same token, we should actually be bumping bowser up a bit in Apex rules since Bowsercide is counted as a win for bowser now. Apex be crazy.

Do they really count Bowsercide as a win? Cause the text of the rule only mentions Ganon, Kirby, DeDeDe, and Wario's 'cide moves.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/img/Apex_2015_rulebook.pdf

Page 16 under Self-Destruct Moves

 

[HeavyLobster]

Thanks for this. Looking at it now, it's looking like Sonic is becoming the Gatekeeper for tournaments. According to the Falcon mains in my area, Sonic hard counters Falcon as well. So I'm wondering how polarizing Sonic's MUs are.

Sonic is so stupid. I actually want him to be nerfed more than Diddy. How do you even fight him if you're playing a slow character, or if you're playing him online?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sonic is so stupid. I actually want him to be nerfed more than Diddy. How do you even fight him if you're playing a slow character, or if you're playing him online?

You don't. You accept defeat for picking a slow character. Though, slow characters generally suck anyway.

 

[NairWizard]

and his reward feels underwhelming.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Whoa.

I was going to respond to the thing said about reads vs. safe play, but then I saw this.

How is Olimar's reward underwhelming? He hits you once at 0 and you take like 9000% damage.

Character is almost definitely top 10 in my eyes.