Character Competitive Impressions

[Nabbitnator]

Just a question. Does sonic have to commit to anything during spin dash? Olimar is so good in this game I think he should be up in at least the top 50 percentage.

 

[HeroMystic]

Just a question. Does sonic have to commit to anything during spin dash?

He can cancel it, or do a spin jump. So no, not really.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sonic is so stupid. I actually want him to be nerfed more than Diddy. How do you even fight him if you're playing a slow character, or if you're playing him online?

From experience with Ike vs Sonic (back to back in tournament)

Patiently, intelligently but perfectly winnable. Helps that Ike has a great combo game, but I feel its right around even, can probably argue all day about who has the slight edge. Really, its won at the mental level, not the character level for these two. Who can out endure the other. Not fun to due twice in a row, but feels great if you pull it off.

Sonic can cancel things all he wants, he's still going to have trouble getting past a giant wall of auto-canceling disjoints.

 

[Lavani]

Is there any greninja or toon link representation?

Over in Japan, Manzoku plays Toon Link and aMSa plays Greninja. I'll drop some vids here:

Manzoku vs selcia
Manzoku vs ikep

aMSa vs Watamo
aMSa vs tk3

 

[Terotrous]

Do they really count Bowsercide as a win? Cause the text of the rule only mentions Ganon, Kirby, DeDeDe, and Wario's 'cide moves.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/img/Apex_2015_rulebook.pdf

Page 16 under Self-Destruct Moves

Interesting, I wonder if that was updated. I'm pretty sure bowser was here at one point.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sonic is so stupid. I actually want him to be nerfed more than Diddy. How do you even fight him if you're playing a slow character, or if you're playing him online?

In comparison, it's not so different from Marth in Brawl. If you didn't have a reliable answer against F-air, D-tilt, and DB then you usually lost very hard to him. Sonic is probably the lesser case though.

 

[thehard]

Yackabean plays Toon Link, he's quite good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE-wNjSO4U4

 

[Firefoxx]

Interesting, I wonder if that was updated. I'm pretty sure bowser was here at one point.

Yeah, I think he was mentioned in the original version. Still a dumb rule, but if Bowser isn't counted then it's less dumb.

 

[⑨ball]

In comparison, it's not so different from Marth in Brawl. If you didn't have a reliable answer against F-air, D-tilt, and DB then you usually lost very hard to him. Sonic is probably the lesser case though.

I was just telling my brother that word for word. This also fits right in with what I was saying before about swordsmen not being around so close range fighters with low ground speed get more time to shine.

The gatekeeper is different but the doors are still only open to the select few.

 

[Conda]

Over in Japan, Manzoku plays Toon Link and aMSa plays Greninja. I'll drop some vids here:

Manzoku vs selcia
Manzoku vs ikep

aMSa vs Watamo
aMSa vs tk3

Awesome matches, thanks. Amsa is really awesome, plays greninja in a way you cannot play any other character - this is how he's supposed to be handled.

Good Toon Link play too, but he still seems fairly limited and doesn't have enough in his toolkit to let him do anything surprising - if you hit your opponent with a bomb or boomerang, then you can get a combo off and at high %, a kill move. Other than that, Toon Link doesn't have any other dimensions to his design, it doesn't seem.

 

[Trifroze]

Thanks for this. Looking at it now, it's looking like Sonic is becoming the Gatekeeper for tournaments. According to the Falcon mains in my area, Sonic hard counters Falcon as well. So I'm wondering how polarizing Sonic's MUs are.

They must be throwing the term out pretty lightly. Pikachu is the only one who might currently be a hard counter to Falcon and that's the result of Pikachu being able to avoid some of Falcon's best moves, grab and jab, during most of his animations and having an amazing gimping game on Falcon's poor recovery.

What does Sonic have against Falcon according to these players you're referring to? All I can think of is Falcon lacking a projectile or a sword, but then does Sonic hard counter everyone who fits that description? Falcon is at least the closest character to Sonic's sanicspeed and has easily the best power/speed ratio in the game, killing Sonic earlier than Sonic killing him and not having much trouble with punishing Sonic.

 

[RWB]

I know my Marth is pretty damn bad, and that he is worse this time around, but damn if his Tippered F-Smash doesn't rock my socks off in this game.
In the videos below, I'm playing against a Ganondorf that beat me solidly when I played with any other character(to be fair, these were probably his two worst matches, since I played rather badly with Marth).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuEoYrAuja4

and http://youtu.be/FmT52jA_eSo?t=1m45s


On a side note, is anyone else expecting Mii Gunner 3333 to be a good team battle choice with his Grenade Launch?

 

[mimgrim]

APEX only allows 1111 builds. DaPuffster actually demanded a refund after being told 2222 and 3333 would be allowed.

Just felt I should mention that.

Blah blah blah. Apex. Bad rules. Blah blah blah.

It's nothing new.

Apex's rules on Custom Miis were really, really dumb. To say the least. As I said before, it's either all or nothing.

I should get you to help me convince Nike of that. I've been waiting for when I can talk to him in person but have been unable to attend last week's weekly and won't be able to make today's either. Here's hoping he shows up to play for the P:M weekly. Maybe you could talk to him about Miis for me today though. I wanna use Gunner so much but not in that limited fashion.

I really hate how Miis are being handled in so many places (even in my own region). ;-;

 

[HeroMystic]

They must be throwing the term out pretty lightly. Pikachu is the only one who might currently be a hard counter to Falcon and that's the result of Pikachu being able to avoid some of Falcon's best moves, grab and jab, during most of his animations and having an amazing gimping game on Falcon's poor recovery.

What does Sonic have against Falcon according to these players you're referring to? All I can think of is Falcon lacking a projectile or a sword, but then does Sonic hard counter everyone who fits that description? Falcon is at least the closest character to Sonic's sanicspeed and has easily the best power/speed ratio in the game, killing Sonic earlier than Sonic killing him and not having much trouble with punishing Sonic.

According to word of mouth, Sonic punishes anything Falcon does and he has no solid answer against his speed. Sonic can juggle him for days and gimping him isn't difficult for Sonic either.

Honestly, this probably because my local scene has Espy, who is probably still the best Sonic in the US, and he uses Spin Dash wildly different than what I see on stream.

EDIT: And I should note he makes Sonic look really fun to play too.

 

[Antonykun]

Blah blah blah. Apex. Bad rules. Blah blah blah.

It's nothing new.

He was just saying that 2222 and 3333 is probably not going to be a thing cuz apex were the ones to invent that and now they don't support it (Still a shame we can't see @Jigglymaster shreking it with Brawler.)

 

[mimgrim]

He was just saying that 2222 and 3333 is probably not going to be a thing cuz apex were the ones to invent that and now they don't support it (Still a shame we can't see @Jigglymaster shreking it with Brawler.)

Nah, I know.

Still Apex and bad rules are pretty much synonyms at this point.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

greninja has a great power:speed ratio. has plenty of kill setups, and does have a decent combo game.

nqme examples where this is so. since all ur doing is saying the opposite of what he said. ur gunna need to explain the specifics.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Here's my top 20 characters

Shiek diddy sonic pikachu ZSS Rosalina

Ness Fox Falcon Yoshi Luigi Megaman

Olimar Rob Metaknight peach Jigglypuff mario

Villager G&W

Sorry for the janky format but I meant it that way. I think there's 6 characters that are a cut above the rest. Um it's not really ordered but kinda sorta. Not really based on results but matches I've seen and future potential.

 

[Kofu]

Here's my top 20 characters

Shiek diddy sonic pikachu ZSS Rosalina

Ness Fox Falcon Yoshi Luigi Megaman

Olimar Rob Metaknight peach Jigglypuff mario

Villager G&W

Sorry for the janky format but I meant it that way. I think there's 6 characters that are a cut above the rest. Um it's not really ordered but kinda sorta. Not really based on results but matches I've seen and future potential.

Aw, that's nice. You think my mains are around top 20! You didn't have to place them there for me. Embarrass

Villager might belong there but I don't think Game & Watch does. Mega Man looks about right though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Aw, that's nice. You think my mains are around top 20! You didn't have to place them there for me. Embarrass

Villager might belong there but I don't think Game & Watch does. Mega Man looks about right though.

I think g&w is pretty good it was either him or pit and felt the dthrow shenanigans give him something that pit was lacking.

 

[Rockaphin]

I think g&w is pretty good it was either him or pit and felt the dthrow shenanigans give him something that pit was lacking.

I personally find Pit to be a little more viable than Mr. G&W at the moment, but we'll see.

 

[Pazzo.]

Nah, I know.

Still Apex and bad rules are pretty much synonyms at this point.

Let's just hope T.Os have the same idea.

We need customs for characters like Dr. Mario, G&W, and Olimar.

 

[Nu~]

Pacman is definitely more viable than G&W. (and about half of the characters on that list, but he isn't top tier) His potential is enormous.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I frankly don't see Wario being anywhere below top 20. He's solid enough to reliably go up against most (maybe all?) of the top characters in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

I frankly don't see Wario being anywhere below top 20. He's solid enough to reliably go up against most (maybe all?) of the top characters in the game.

Once again, I'm reminded of Mew2King saying that Wario is good. Now, if only more people would play him...

 

[thehard]

As far as I know Wario has no downsides. He's just all-around great.

 

[KevJames]

Once again, I'm reminded of Mew2King saying that Wario is good. Now, if only more people would play him...

I'm surprised that there's lack of Wario representation given that the current meta is 2 stock matches. This allows Wario to take full advantage of his early Waft kills and great recovery/weight. Regardless of the nerfs to him from Brawl, the current metagame is incredibly kind to him.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pacman is definitely more viable than G&W. (and about half of the characters on that list, but he isn't top tier) His potential is enormous.

Pacman I think falls a little short of the characters I listed he maybe top 25 or 30. I feel as though you pac man mains have been hyping him about. I'd like to see him vs shiek and diddy. Then there's the Rosalina MU and I can't really justify someone bring top 20 when one character can just invalidatehis game plan.

As far as I know Wario has no downsides. He's just all-around great.

His ground game is leaves a lot to be desired but It's wario. I don't believe he can keep up with any of the top tiers. His game isn't as versatile as it was brawl. He lost too much IMO.

 

[StripedNinja]

Over in Japan, Manzoku plays Toon Link and aMSa plays Greninja. I'll drop some vids here:

Manzoku vs selcia
Manzoku vs ikep

aMSa vs Watamo
aMSa vs tk3

No more Yoshi for aMSa? Right when everyone is saying he's good?
Maybe aMSa just hates himself.

 

[Teshie U]

According to word of mouth, Sonic punishes anything Falcon does and he has no solid answer against his speed. Sonic can juggle him for days and gimping him isn't difficult for Sonic either.

Honestly, this probably because my local scene has Espy, who is probably still the best Sonic in the US, and he uses Spin Dash wildly different than what I see on stream.

EDIT: And I should note he makes Sonic look really fun to play too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilWZAPHyZWE

Falcon has some of the most disgustingly safe options, if sonic can easily punish him, there is no hope for the rest of the cast.

Falcon is waaaay more dangerous to be juggled by.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the subject of Wario, I believe he is one of Ganondorf's explicitly favorable matchups.

I wonder if anyone is interested in calling me out on this.

 

[FullMoon]

No more Yoshi for aMSa? Right when everyone is saying he's good?
Maybe aMSa just hates himself.

I believe he has Yoshi as a secondary of sorts, I guess he just ended up liking Greninja more.

 

[Lavani]

No more Yoshi for aMSa? Right when everyone is saying he's good?
Maybe aMSa just hates himself.

He doesn't main the same character across games; he's always been a Greninja since sm4sh 3ds, though he does have a pocket Yoshi.

 

[StripedNinja]

Pacman I think falls a little short of the characters I listed he maybe top 25 or 30. I feel as though you pac man mains have been hyping him about. I'd like to see him vs shiek and diddy. Then there's the Rosalina MU and I can't really justify someone bring top 20 when one character can just invalidatehis game plan.

I would have to say the same thing about G&W. People just haven't really put in the work for him, he's really only been used in doubles for bucketing, but I actually think he has a lot of strengths.

 

[Spinosaurus]

His ground game is leaves a lot to be desired but It's wario. I don't believe he can keep up with any of the top tiers. His game isn't as versatile as it was brawl. He lost too much IMO.

Have you watched Reflex's Wario?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOfsoz9sZs

Look at the way he utilizes Wario's turnaround cancel. On top of having an amazing roll cancel grab, his options in the ground aren't as limited as you might think.

On the subject of Wario, I believe he is one of Ganondorf's explicitly favorable matchups.

I wonder if anyone is interested in calling me out on this.

OK I'm curious. In what way?

I don't realistically see Ganondorf doing much against Wario's Bite.

 

[StripedNinja]

He doesn't main the same character across games; he's always been a Greninja since sm4sh 3ds, though he does have a pocket Yoshi.

I just thought since he was so good now and could jump out of shield, I remember hearing an interview with him where he was praising Yoshi so I assumed he would be playing him.That was before it had actually came out though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Have you watched Reflex's Wario?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOfsoz9sZs

Look at the way he utilizes Wario's turnaround cancel. On top of having amazing roll cancel grab, his options in the ground aren't as you think.

OK I'm curious. In what way?

Bite practically shuts down all of Ganondorf's options in the ground.

There is no grab armor in this game, and Ganondorf outranges Wario pretty significantly both on the ground and in the air, meaning most of the time, Ganondorf doesn't have much trouble just trading hits favorably with Bite. To make things worse for Wario, Ganondorf actually has very good lingering hitboxes in his N-air making it really hard for Wario to directly approach Ganon conventionally. The one situation where Bite is really strong is for edgetrapping, but that alone is not a big enough advantage to really shut down Ganondorf.

Wario's only really consistent way to directly beat Ganon's spacing is with Bike, however this is not exactly safe on block when Ganondorf can often U-air out of shield against this if he's fast. Alternatively Ganondorf half the time can stuff Bike by just being in range to N-air.

Combine that Ganondorf has the usual Flame Choke followups on Wario, and that Wario actually has a much harder time getting back to the ground against Ganondorf in this game due to airdodge nerfs, I believe Ganondorf wins this matchup 55/45. It would be much further in Ganon's favor if he was not also easily juggled.

 

[StripedNinja]

Dude I'm watching these matches, aMSa's Greninja is insane ;-;

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Have you watched Reflex's Wario?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOfsoz9sZs

Look at the way he utilizes Wario's turnaround cancel. On top of having an amazing roll cancel grab, his options in the ground aren't as limited as you might think.

OK I'm curious. In what way?

I don't realistically see Ganondorf doing much against Wario's Bite.

Yeah I've seen reflex and I've seen gluttony also and some japanese Warios. I haven't seen anything that makes me think Wario's a good character now.

 

[Nu~]

Pacman I think falls a little short of the characters I listed he maybe top 25 or 30. I feel as though you pac man mains have been hyping him about. I'd like to see him vs shiek and diddy.

Abadango already stomped keitaro's diddy today. Koolaid also destroyed a diddy in finals:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUCqjpk7_M

Hyping him up? If anything he's being grossly underestimated. You really need to visit the pacman thread. If anything, you are placing characters like R.O.B. and G&W in top 20 simply because of what they can do in a vacuum. Both lose hard to the top ten. I also think megaman is around the 15-20 mark, but thats another story.

Then there's the Rosalina MU and I can't really justify someone bring top 20 when one character can just invalidatehis game plan.

you say that, and then place villager in top 20, who loses extremely hard to palutena's reflect. Us Pac-Mains are finding ways to combat the matchup against RosaLuma. Hydrant is a great bait for gravitational pull, and the key one shots luma. She also can't use down B in mid range unless she wants to get punished. Our gameplan isn't linear; we are built to adapt with our versatile moveset.