Character Competitive Impressions

[Djent]

you say that, and then place villager in top 20, who loses extremely hard to palutena's reflect.

Look, I agree that Pac-Man is somewhat underrated, but you're really reaching here.

 

[FullMoon]

aMSa is probably the main evidence that Greninja can be a very dangerous threat when under competente hands that actually understand how he functions. He pretty single-handedly made me try to master Greninja to the best of my abilities.

I just wish I could perform Perfect Pivoting, and even then I probably wouldn't be able to implement it into my playstyle like he does.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Abadango already stomped keitaro's diddy today. Koolaid also destroyed a diddy in finals:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUCqjpk7_M

Hyping him up? If anything he's being grossly underestimated. You really need to visit the pacman thread. If anything, you are placing characters like R.O.B. and G&W in top 20 simply because of what they can do in a vacuum. Both lose hard to the top ten. I also think megaman is around the 15-20 mark, but thats another story.


you say that, and then place villager in top 20, who loses extremely hard to palutena's reflect. Us Pac-Mains are finding ways to combat the matchup against RosaLuma. Hydrant is a great bait for gravitational pull, and the key one shots luma. She also can't use down B in mid range unless she wants to get punished. Our gameplan isn't linear; we are built to adapt with our versatile moveset.

You're funny first kool-aid is a poor representation of pacman now he's a good one? Which one is it man? I haven't seen that video before so I'll need to watch it.

Na I feel like Rob is a extremely good character with a lot going for him. Very strong projectile game and a good combo game also. With a 3 frame dtilt and jab his up close game is good so even if you get in on him he's rarely going to lose in speed. He's strong imo.

I don't think any competent villager would lose to palutena's reflect.

 

[Trifroze]

As far as I know Wario has no downsides. He's just all-around great.

He does have one glaring weakness at least, and that's his poor range combined with the lack of a spammable projectile. It's really easy to get in on him and then outspace him.

 

[David Viran]

It was both I believe.

Yeah the japenese players had really good SDI. I never noticed before because they never did that to choco although he doesn't use up b too much. You pretty much have to hit that small SDI multipier on the first hit to stand a chance at getting out but the move comes out on frame 4 and there is no hitlag on the first hit it is extremely hard.

 

[Nu~]

Look, I agree that Pac-Man is somewhat underrated, but you're really reaching here.

Funny. I remember when so many villager mains would complain and say it's a "80-20 matchup" I mean, it is hard considering his rocket, fair, and bair are invalidated. It also forces villager to approach...something he never really wants to do.

You're funny first kool-aid is a poor representation of pacman now he's a good one? Which one is it man? I haven't seen that video before so I'll need to watch it.

Na I feel like Rob is a extremely good character with a lot going for him. Very strong projectile game and a good combo game also. With a 3 frame dtilt and jab his up close game is good so even if you get in on him he's rarely going to lose in speed. He's strong imo.

I don't think any competent villager would lose to palutena's reflect.

That's before I saw koolaid play offline lol.
Rob has very bad OOS options and gets juggled quite easily. His projectile game gives him a somewhat good field advantage, but they can't be relied on to keep opponents away for long, considering both can be power shielded. Also, his aerial speed is bad with slow aerials to boot (minus fair and uair)

 

[Nobie]

I'm starting to think that, for a lot of characters, you're better off trying to fight Villager center-stage instead of trying to force him off-stage. The ledge is almost to Villager what behind the net was for Wayne Gretzky, and I feel like the more you let him play that ledge camping game, the more chance he has to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Funny. I remember when so many villager mains would complain and say it's a "80-20 matchup" I mean, it is hard considering his rocket, fair, and bair are invalidated. It also forces villager to approach...something he never really wants to do.


That's before I saw koolaid play offline lol.
Rob has very bad OOS options and gets juggled quite easily. His projectile game gives him a somewhat good field advantage, but they can't be relied on to keep opponents away for long, considering both can be power shielded. Also, his aerial speed is bad with slow aerials to boot (minus fair and uair)

I hear ya man.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're funny first kool-aid is a poor representation of pacman now he's a good one? Which one is it man? I haven't seen that video before so I'll need to watch it.

Na I feel like Rob is a extremely good character with a lot going for him. Very strong projectile game and a good combo game also. With a 3 frame dtilt and jab his up close game is good so even if you get in on him he's rarely going to lose in speed. He's strong imo.

I don't think any competent villager would lose to palutena's reflect.

ROB's projectile game isn't very good unless he's winning. He has a situationally good capitalization game with his projectiles, but overall he's a tall floaty character that doesn't do a lot of damage, and generally tends to do poorly when he's in the negative state.

Yeah his F-tilt, F-air, and D-tilt have reasonable range/frame data. Problem is, he doesn't really get much off of those moves alone. In Brawl, his F-tilt was broken to the point where his low damage basically didn't even matter when even Brawl Metaknight had to actually work moderately hard to find a way around it in neutral, and when by winning neutral that consistently, it make Gyro/laser setups pretty effortless.

Flame Gyro though is really good on ROB and I believe the character is considerably better in a custom environment.

 

[Djent]

It's more that Palutena isn't much of a threat without customs (she's probably Low-Mid), so a horrible MU vs. her doesn't ruin your viability. Villager is strong, but he's not so scary that people are going to start carrying pocket Palutenas to counter him.

 

[Locke 06]

Funny. I remember when so many villager mains would complain and say it's a "80-20 matchup" I mean, it is hard considering his rocket, fair, and bair are invalidated. It also forces villager to approach...something he never really wants to do..

Have you seen aggro Villagers? Lingering aerials galore and that NAir lasts until f23 and autocancels at f27 (and only has 14 frames of landing lag if you don't AC it). Salem's villager is the example... there are so many videos of him on CT and everyone loves his villager.

Rocket to bait the reflect, jump over it and go to town. The idea that reflectors > projectiles is about as solid an idea as counters > melee moves.

Shoutout to @ Nobie for a great hockey reference.

Edit: I guess in Palutena's case, it'd be side-B

 

[Vengeance_NS]

M2k said wario is good? When was this?

I agree with most tho and think wario is top 15. His worst top tier mus are sheik and ZSS. He can play very safe with fairs. Waft kills super early. Bike is fantastic. Bite is hell edge guarding and causing problems. Ftilt waft bair and upsmash OOS are good killing options. Excellent run away ability and no chain grab or grab release bs I feel he's enter than brawl wario.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ROB's projectile game isn't very good unless he's winning. He has a situationally good capitalization game with his projectiles, but overall he's a tall floaty character that doesn't do a lot of damage, and generally tends to do poorly when he's in the negative state.

Yeah his F-tilt, F-air, and D-tilt have reasonable range/frame data. Problem is, he doesn't really get much off of those moves alone. In Brawl, his F-tilt was broken to the point where his low damage basically didn't even matter when even Brawl Metaknight had to actually work moderately hard to find a way around it in neutral, and when by winning neutral that consistently, it make Gyro/laser setups pretty effortless.

Flame Gyro though is really good on ROB and I believe the character is considerably better in a custom environment.

I still think it's strong and some characters still struggle wirh gyro. I could be mistaken but it seems as though he produce gyro faster this time around. Also because gyro is also an item it gives ROB a boost. I don't expect ROB players to just camp. But also use the projectile to enhance their offense and defensive games.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I still think it's strong and some characters still struggle wirh gyro. I could be mistaken but it seems as though he produce gyro faster this time around. Also because gyro is also an item it gives ROB a boost. I don't expect ROB players to just camp. But also use the projectile to enhance their offense and defensive games.

As I said, ROB's projectile game is much better when he's actually winning, because Gyro item shenanigans are much easier to set up when your opponent isn't in a position to stop them. And yes, you can try to fire another Gyro if your opponent blocks it, but you also don't want to do this in midrange if they powershield, or if they catch it while doing DA//F-air to get in.

This is also why Flame Gyro is REALLY GOOD because it doesn't fly as far away from you, allowing you to catch it more quickly.

 

[Ffamran]

M2k said wario is good? When was this?

I agree with most tho and think wario is top 15. His worst top tier mus are sheik and ZSS. He can play very safe with fairs. Waft kills super early. Bike is fantastic. Bite is hell edge guarding and causing problems. Ftilt waft bair and upsmash OOS are good killing options. Excellent run away ability and no chain grab or grab release bs I feel he's enter than brawl wario.

It was on a stream that might have been a month ago. Well, when Xanadu ended that day, they said to go raid Mew2King and I checked out his stream since I never saw Mew2King play before - yes, I'm a filthy casual - and I heard him say he thought Wario was good. He even played as Wario because he wanted to practice after one of the other guys stopped playing and Mew2King switched in.

I really wished he used Wario instead of Diddy in the recent tournament, but whatever.

 

[Nu~]

Have you seen aggro Villagers? Lingering aerials galore and that NAir lasts until f23 and autocancels at f27 (and only has 14 frames of landing lag if you don't AC it). Salem's villager is the example... there are so many videos of him on CT and everyone loves his villager.

True.

Rocket to bait the reflect, jump over it and go to town. The idea that down B > projectiles is about as solid an idea as counters > melee moves.

Shoutout to @ Nobie for a great hockey reference.

Eh. Not exactly. The barrier lingers, so by the time the rocket reflects, palutena is free to punish villager's aerial approach. It's not like villager's anti juggle tools are amazing. If palutena shields the dair or nair, you are getting hit by an OoS usmash, nair, or uair. And reflectors do to projectiles what counters can't. They prohibit heavy camping, while counters can't stop rushdown. Also, they are safe at a distance. Counters are unsafe because of how close you have to be. It's a gamble. But I agree that reflectors can be easily baited, but only if you are fast enough to follow up.
Now if villager had a hydrant to prevent having to land with an attack, or a faster projectile, then the reflect wouldn't give him as many problems. But he simply isn't fast enough to punish palutena's reflect from far range.

 

[Locke 06]

If palutena shields the dair or nair, you are getting hit by an OoS usmash, nair, or uair.

Cross up NAir/DAir by Villager. Palutena does... what?

Palutena isn't hitting anyone with her OoS usmash or UAir. OoS options are one of Palutena's weaknesses. Homework, please.

Edit: NAir OoS is okay, but I don't think it has enough range to punish a Villager who's drifted away.

 

[Jams.]

ROB's projectile game isn't very good unless he's winning. He has a situationally good capitalization game with his projectiles, but overall he's a tall floaty character that doesn't do a lot of damage, and generally tends to do poorly when he's in the negative state.

Yeah his F-tilt, F-air, and D-tilt have reasonable range/frame data. Problem is, he doesn't really get much off of those moves alone. In Brawl, his F-tilt was broken to the point where his low damage basically didn't even matter when even Brawl Metaknight had to actually work moderately hard to find a way around it in neutral, and when by winning neutral that consistently, it make Gyro/laser setups pretty effortless.

Flame Gyro though is really good on ROB and I believe the character is considerably better in a custom environment.

You've said this about ROB:MK in Brawl before, but I don't agree with your assessment of the neutral in this matchup. In Brawl, ROB has to give MK a huge amount of respect in neutral because of tornado. ROB's only options to deal with tornado are either extremely committal (fsmash, laser) or cause him to lose positional control (jump, run off the stage). I don't see why MK needs to respect ROB's ftilt when he could effectively threaten ROB in neutral from a safe distance with tornado. I also disagree that ROB's Brawl neutral game is focused around ftilt, from looking at recent top level ROB videos near the end of Brawl's lifespan.

Also, do you still believe ROB is bottom 5 in this game?

Anyway, this is a Smash 4 thread so I'll give my opinion about Smash 4 ROB. He currently has solid representation, so I feel like this gives people an inflated opinion of him compared to characters with less exposure such as Pac Man. He has some bad matchups among the high tiers (Sheik, Villager, ZSS, etc.) which I feel keep him out of high tier (or at least at the bottom of it). However, his matchup spread is still good enough to be in upper mid, and he has some decent matchups in high tier which keep him somewhat relevant in the tournament scene.

 

[Nu~]

Cross up NAir/DAir by Villager. Palutena does... what?

Palutena isn't hitting anyone with her OoS usmash or UAir. OoS options are one of Palutena's weaknesses. Homework, please.

Edit: NAir OoS is okay, but I don't think it has enough range to punish a Villager who's drifted away.

Hmm...maybe should have studied harder.

 

[Nobie]

Cross up NAir/DAir by Villager. Palutena does... what?

Palutena isn't hitting anyone with her OoS usmash or UAir. OoS options are one of Palutena's weaknesses. Homework, please.

Edit: NAir OoS is okay, but I don't think it has enough range to punish a Villager who's drifted away.

What about Palutena's bair? It's one thing I think we always have to consider about Palutena, that she has a couple of attacks (bair, dash attack) that literally beat almost anything.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You've said this about ROB:MK in Brawl before, but I don't agree with your assessment of the neutral in this matchup. In Brawl, ROB has to give MK a huge amount of respect in neutral because of tornado. ROB's only options to deal with tornado are either extremely committal (fsmash, laser) or cause him to lose positional control (jump, run off the stage). I don't see why MK needs to respect ROB's ftilt when he could effectively threaten ROB in neutral from a safe distance with tornado. I also disagree that ROB's Brawl neutral game is focused around ftilt, from looking at recent top level ROB videos near the end of Brawl's lifespan.

Also, do you still believe ROB is bottom 5 in this game?

Anyway, this is a Smash 4 thread so I'll give my opinion about Smash 4 ROB. He currently has solid representation, so I feel like this gives people an inflated opinion of him compared to characters with less exposure such as Pac Man. He has some bad matchups among the high tiers (Sheik, Villager, ZSS, etc.) which I feel keep him out of high tier (or at least at the bottom of it). However, his matchup spread is still good enough to be in upper mid, and he has some decent matchups in high tier which keep him somewhat relevant in the tournament scene.

Okay you have the point on Tornado, but the basic jist is ROB's F-tilt is actually a pretty retardedly good poke in Brawl and basically there aren't many things that actually want to play footsies against it. Both his F-tilt and D-tilt were stronger in Brawl overall, and basically ROB functions off of winning neutral, then capitalizing with projectiles.

Honestly, as for ROB's placement, it's hard to say. I'd put him in the bottom half of the cast overall. The worst character in the game overall is Little Mac, but even he has notable good matchups and mostly just suffers from being one of few characters that gets countered pretty hard. I personally think right now the 5 worst characters overall are probably LM, WFT, Swordfighter, Kirby, and G&W, but it's not like they're THAT much worse than most of the cast and don't have potentially good matchups.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I'm confused as to why dr mario is placed near the lower tiers. Besides his poor recovery (which isn't even that bad considering he ha has Mario tornado and a wall jump), I don't see what flaws he has that make him a low tier character.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I feel like too many people are hopping on the "Palutena sux without teh custums" bandwagon...

 

[Antonykun]

Abadango already stomped keitaro's diddy today. Koolaid also destroyed a diddy in finals:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUCqjpk7_M

Hyping him up? If anything he's being grossly underestimated. You really need to visit the pacman thread. If anything, you are placing characters like R.O.B. and G&W in top 20 simply because of what they can do in a vacuum. Both lose hard to the top ten. I also think megaman is around the 15-20 mark, but thats another story.


you say that, and then place villager in top 20, who loses extremely hard to palutena's reflect. Us Pac-Mains are finding ways to combat the matchup against RosaLuma. Hydrant is a great bait for gravitational pull, and the key one shots luma. She also can't use down B in mid range unless she wants to get punished. Our gameplan isn't linear; we are built to adapt with our versatile moveset.

Just letting you know Villager uses reflect as another way to troll Palutena.

It also forces villager to approach...something he never really wants to do.

On the contrary Villager's most dangerous moves are when she's up close n-air,Turnips, close range Slingshot, the Axe. It's just Villager's keep away is so good that few can challenge it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm confused as to why dr mario is placed near the lower tiers. Besides his poor recovery (which isn't even that bad considering he ha has Mario tornado and a wall jump), I don't see what flaws he has that make him a low tier character.

Most people rag on his mobility, which is actually a legitimate problem for chasing some characters. Technically though, he can handle most characters in neutral with pills, his reflector, and the occasional Tornado blitz approach, and from there he lets his high damage do the work. His 3 frame Up-B that does 13% is also one of the best moves in the game period and perpetually underrated.

I'd say while he competes with Luigi for the kinds of things he does, he's really underrated and actually has at worst even matchups against some good characters. I personally find him really good against characters like Ness, Yoshi, and Captain Falcon.

 

[Nu~]

Just letting you know Villager uses reflect as another way to troll Palutena.

On the contrary Villager's most dangerous moves are when she's up close n-air,Turnips, close range Slingshot, the Axe. It's just Villager's keep away is so good that few can challenge it.

Yeah...I almost forgot about how good your aerials were lol.

 

[Anomilus]

Most people rag on his mobility, which is actually a legitimate problem for chasing some characters. Technically though, he can handle most characters in neutral with pills, his reflector, and the occasional Tornado blitz approach, and from there he lets his high damage do the work. His 3 frame Up-B that does 13% is also one of the best moves in the game period and perpetually underrated.

I'd say while he competes with Luigi for the kinds of things he does, he's really underrated and actually has at worst even matchups against some good characters. I personally find him really good against characters like Ness, Yoshi, and Captain Falcon.

FINALLY some Dr. Mario respect.

Actually been waiting for somebody to bring up Doc. Unfortunately I don't have much else to add. I just want somebody out there to give him a chance so people can stop ragging on him and acting like he's bottom tier. Until then I'll just keep kicking people's butt with him. Sheesh, he isn't even my main. I just don't like unwarranted dismissal of decent characters.

 

[Antonykun]

I was reading around the Wario sub-forum, and there I found that he is not a jack-of-all-trades but rather a fusion between Bowser and Jigglypuff, more Jiggs though. He feels like a Jack-of-all-trades because he is the bizarre combination between two polar opposites whose end result just so happened to be a badass with the tools for all scenarios.

 

[Djent]

I feel like too many people are hopping on the "Palutena sux without teh custums" bandwagon...

Not sure if you're referencing my post, but I should say that Low-Mid doesn't mean she "sucks." It means she's below the median (which I think is realistic for a character with mostly situational or mediocre specials and laggy tilts/smashes). Her jab setups, dash attack, and most of her aerial kit (minus dair) are actually very good. I just have a hard time seeing how they're supposed to make her a complete enough character to handle the top tiers consistently (whose entire kits are useful).

EDIT: You can certainly do worse than her, but here's a list of characters that I feel perform better than she does overall:

I feel this list is pretty conservative, and it's 25 characters long. That would certainly imply a "low-mid" ranking (which doesn't mean she's unviable, mind you).

 

[xgina]

Most people rag on his mobility, which is actually a legitimate problem for chasing some characters. Technically though, he can handle most characters in neutral with pills, his reflector, and the occasional Tornado blitz approach, and from there he lets his high damage do the work. His 3 frame Up-B that does 13% is also one of the best moves in the game period and perpetually underrated.

I'd say while he competes with Luigi for the kinds of things he does, he's really underrated and actually has at worst even matchups against some good characters. I personally find him really good against characters like Ness, Yoshi, and Captain Falcon.

personally I've only played the matchup a handful of times but I feel like doc does well against olimar as well. it feels like the cape not stalling in the air gives doc a bit more fluid of an approach and the tornado is solid. dealing more damage against a light character like olimar is always a plus. while they weren't great, any olimar I used doc against ended up getting destroyed; it might give him a niche as olimar has been gaining popularity quickly. thoughts?

 

[SpaceJell0]

How do people feel about Villager in the current metagame? I feel as though he's a bit underrated and underrepresented. But rushdown characters give him a bit of trouble. Thoughts?

 

[Ffamran]

How do people feel about Villager in the current metagame? I feel as though he's a bit underrated and underrepresented. But rushdown characters give him a bit of trouble. Thoughts?

I only know about Logic using Villager, but people do say Villager is a solid character. I don't know why, but I know Up Smash has good range - I was singed by it and it killed me -, Uair and Dair's active frames are annoying, and Fair and Bair are good spacing tools.

 

[SpaceJell0]

I only know about Logic using Villager, but people do say Villager is a solid character. I don't know why, but I know Up Smash has good range - I was singed by it and it killed me -, Uair and Dair's active frames are annoying, and Fair and Bair are good spacing tools.

Look up Salem's Villager, he's probably the best we got so far. (imo better than Logic's Villager)

 

[Ffamran]

Look up Salem's Villager, he's probably the best we got so far. (imo better than Logic's Villager)

Well, isn't Logic's main Diddy and Villager is a secondary? I'll look up Salem after I finish these videos of Keitaro's Falco.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Well, isn't Logic's main Diddy and Villager is a secondary? I'll look up Salem after I finish these videos of Keitaro's Falco.

Yeah, Logic secondaries Villager but Salem full on mains him I believe.

(Also good on Keitaro for shedding hope on Falco's meta )

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, Logic secondaries Villager but Salem full on mains him I believe.

(Also good on Keitaro for shedding hope on Falco's meta )

Well, Izaw and GimR deserves credit as well for Falco's meta alongside the guys and gals at the Falco boards.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Well, Izaw and GimR deserves credit as well for Falco's meta alongside the guys and gals at the Falco boards.

Doesn't GimR main G&W now? I always see him use him in tourneys. When has he used Falco?

 

[Paper Maribro]

Two of the top players in Australia main Villager and in my experience, it's very tough to play against them. All Villager's aerials are great, Nair is a great anti-juggle tool, Fair and Bair along with Lloid makes a big wall. Villager's jab is also a decent get off me tool, although not fantastic. Villager also has a tonne of kill power and easy setups for up smash (which I believe kills me at about 120%) through down smash. Forward Smash, Axe and tree are just brutal.

You have to be really patient and wait for an opening that doesn't appear very often. Once in though, Villager does have a tough time getting you off them and that's really the biggest weakness Villager has. I have only really got experience in the MU with Pac-Man so I dunno what it's like with others but it certainly is frustrating.

I believe Villager is a really good character. Definitely top 20, if not higher.

 

[Ffamran]

Doesn't GimR main G&W now? I always see him use him in tourneys. When has he used Falco?

Here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNktB4ODRxg.

Here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPc1H5u_ZyA.

Here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UERJkNBqRW8. This one's the infamous Mr. Game & Watch windbox kill. GimR switches to Falco after the second match.

And here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnrFFfhWiv0.

Thank @gameplayzero for the first two links.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Abadango already stomped keitaro's diddy today. Koolaid also destroyed a diddy in finals:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUCqjpk7_M

Hyping him up? If anything he's being grossly underestimated. You really need to visit the pacman thread. If anything, you are placing characters like R.O.B. and G&W in top 20 simply because of what they can do in a vacuum. Both lose hard to the top ten. I also think megaman is around the 15-20 mark, but thats another story.


you say that, and then place villager in top 20, who loses extremely hard to palutena's reflect. Us Pac-Mains are finding ways to combat the matchup against RosaLuma. Hydrant is a great bait for gravitational pull, and the key one shots luma. She also can't use down B in mid range unless she wants to get punished. Our gameplan isn't linear; we are built to adapt with our versatile moveset.

I watched the first two matches of that (obnoxious audio desynch and obnoxious wrapper around the game aside). That video didn't really show anything for Pac-Man mostly because Koolaid seemed to just be way, way better than his opponent on a fundamental level. The Diddy player was just running into smashes (and every other button Koolaid was hitting) repeatedly which I don't want to just downplay players maybe Koolaid was really in his opponent's head or something but I'm pretty sure he could have won that set with any character with how the set went. If the Diddy player was doing stuff like blocking Pac-Man's attacks and trying to punish OoS we might have seen more of what Pac-Man could do, but that wasn't how the match went...

I would actually be interested in seeing Abadango's Pac-Man playing strong opponents though. Do you have video of that handy? I still have pretty much zero faith in your character, but seeing him played at a very high level would certainly be handy for getting a better picture of him.