Character Competitive Impressions

[mimgrim]

What is the general consensus of Olimar? People still think he's bad?

Whether he is bad or not in the Wii-U version I do not know.

But god do I know I hate playing as him in this game. He's no where near as fun as his Brawl incarnation.

 

[MachoCheeze]

PAC with some lab can counter diddy in the future because of the hydrant preventing hoohaas and the banana gives pacman 2 projectiles instead of 1

A lot of us Pac-Man mains have been saying this for a while but no one here seems to listen to us.

 

[FimPhym]

I may be a little late to the party here but man, if you can just play safe until kill percent I'm amazed that the pros get hit at all. Why do they ever not just play safe?

I think some regard 'reads' like they're some magic thing you don't do all the time, or that you can actually 'play safe' and not be vulnerable to your safe thing being read. Maybe you only take a positional loss for doing your safe thing but sooner or later you run out of stuff that stops you being hit. Sure there are hard reads that you need to land a Ganon f smash but it's alien to me to imagine 'just doing safe stuff' and not trying to be always anticipating the opponent. I do play a heavy though so my perspective might be skewed?

Seems to me that you can't just look at who has the safest neutral and call it a day. You have to do some multiplier like "ability to get an opening * reward per opening". Many players love to weigh the first part of that formula, but it's not necessarily better. I'd agree in all smash games so far that strong neutral is important - it didn't have to be that way though, and stories about how it naturally would be that way feel rather ad hoc.

Usually heavies have strengths that don't have room for growth from the player and designers under estimate how far other characters will grow. It's more common for a character who can get in to find a way to increase their reward to unfair heights than for a heavy to find unfair ways to get in, but that's not something that has to be true in a tightly designed game.

The comparison to other fighting games is strange - it's not unheard of for grapplers to be top tier (AC Potemkin I believe, off the top of my head) but also they often end up low tier. This is again due to characters growing to a point that the fixed reward of a command grab becomes obsolete rather than the weakness of being slow or struggling too get in being insurmountable.

I'd love to really dig in to the whole matter of heavies, neutral game and rewards but I'm not sure where the best place for a topic like that would be. For all my nitpicking though, I agree that sheik is clearly way better than Ganon though I don't have the experience to place either. I'd just warn against stories about how it had to be this way, and this confusing notion of 'just play safe' which seems like a fancied up way of saying "hit the other player, don't let them hit you" in terms of strategy.

 

[StripedNinja]

Whether he is bad or not in the Wii-U version I do not know.

But god do I know I hate playing as him in this game. He's no where near as fun as his Brawl incarnation.

Id have to disagree. Extra hitstun allows for a lot of fun strings with Oli, his new recovery is a godsent and he can go off stage, a lot more offensive options (not that he isn't still super defensive but still way less so than Brawl), much much better Nolimar, Pikmin management feels super fluid. I love Oli in this one, he just feels so much more balanced (in terms of his moveset and play style, not like tiers balanced). That's just me though.
Not that I think he's better, but he just seems to make more sense as far as how all his moves work.
Also Pikmin carrying items to Olimar is the best buff anyone has ever gotten in Smash, if only for how cute it is.

Also Alph is rad. Still prefer the captain though.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Regarding the rankings discussion a couple pages back:

Using the filters is important. It's still not a perfect system (far from it tbh), but if you're going to use it to support an argument then at least pull the best data you can from it. Set a reasonable date limit (on that note, why does it track data all the way back to July for Wii U? There are evidently some pre-release entries that should probably be filtered by default), use the min value filter to weed out small/unranked events, and filter for higher placings.

For example, take Marth and Lucina since they were two of the main characters mentioned. If you filter from Nov 21 onwards, only use events worth 25 points or more (ie only using ranked events), and sort for top 16, they'll show up in the bottom 15. Filter for 50+ point events (removing small locals from the pool) and they drop to bottom 10. If you filter for top 8 they're still bottom 10 in 50+ point events, while Lucina just barely makes it out of bottom 15 in 25+ point events.

Still not great data (limited data pool, no information on representation, etc), but it certainly doesn't show them performing well. Ditto for Ganondorf, since he was also mentioned.

Shoutouts to Olimar putting in work on the rankings list though.

 

[Nu~]

A lot of us Pac-Man mains have been saying this for a while but no one here seems to listen to us.

Exactly.
People will underestimate pac until kingdom come
Feels like smash 4 speculation when the pac supporters weren't respected at all.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

As a DK user, a strong PACman is one of my most feared matchups. He is also so much more annoying than diddy. But this is also why i am against calls to nerf diddy: the only ones calling for the nerf are the characters that can beat everyone with ease EXCEPT for diddy and one or two others. Which is BS. If I as DK can struggle vs many characters other than diddy, then you pacmans, robs, rosalinas, zss, etc just need to suck it up and shut up. As a Dk user I know that diddy can be beaten with a few adjustments to how one plays, and I know this because my brother plays diddy and I can beat him. Just because he can grab you doesn't make a character annoying.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Waka waka waka waka.

I can't understand you Mr. Pacman. Perhaps taking speech lessons from Fozzy Bear wasn't a great idea.

I totally expect there to be a few problem matches for Diddy in the roster. Pac may very well be one of them. He's not Metaknight and people need to calm down. Give it til AT LEAST Apex if not EVO before shouting for nerfs or godforbid a ban. Let the other characters have a chance to grow a bit. Most of them are a little under repped at the moment. Not saying it's not an issue that is real but one we probably don't have the pieces for just yet.

 

[TriTails]

I main Luigi, and udually I don't consider Pac-Man to be a threat like Sheik or Villager, but seriously.... his game is quite tricky to navigate about for me.

Trampolines! Hydrants! Keys! And any other random fruits! And of course.... everytime I interrupted his Side-b..... POWAH PELLET CAT FIGHT!!! (Nah, not really. I just plain eat it before he can recover)

Eh, Pac is quite great. I can see Luigi being at a disadvantage versus him. Yeah.... having a B-air that can knock away the hydrant in a single hit doesn't cut it..... Still, I'm seeing a lot of Pacs lately... I guess it's the time for me to respect his tools... getting a Hydrant bashed to your head ain't funny.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I main Luigi, and udually I don't consider Pac-Man to be a threat like Sheik or Villager, but seriously.... his game is quite tricky to navigate about for me.

Trampolines! Hydrants! Keys! And any other random fruits! And of course.... everytime I interrupted his Side-b..... POWAH PELLET CAT FIGHT!!! (Nah, not really. I just plain eat it before he can recover)

Eh, Pac is quite great. I can see Luigi being at a disadvantage versus him. Yeah.... having a B-air that can knock away the hydrant in a single hit doesn't cut it..... Still, I'm seeing a lot of Pacs lately... I guess it's the time for me to respect his tools... getting a Hydrant bashed to your head ain't funny.

And that's only the default moveset. :3

 

[Judo777]

If Bairs kill power is so good then how come I only really see people dying
to it from stage spikes? (I recognize it does the job at high percentage and it's speed
can make it frightening, but it still takes quite a while for it to kill unless catching
someone near the edge).

Really, the first two moves you listed only really kill well if they catch people off-stage,
and Vanish is a bit of a gamble, like her smashes.

Sheik's bair kills from center stage at like 145%. People really exaggerate her kill power. Also just like in brawl Sheik suffers from her kill moves being moves she frequently needs to use (like bair and i guess uair is a kill move).

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I can't understand you Mr. Pacman. Perhaps taking speech lessons from Fozzy Bear wasn't a great idea.

I totally expect there to be a few problem matches for Diddy in the roster. Pac may very well be one of them. He's not Metaknight and people need to calm down. Give it til AT LEAST Apex if not EVO before shouting for nerfs or godforbid a ban. Let the other characters have a chance to grow a bit. Most of them are a little under repped at the moment. Not saying it's not an issue that is real but one we probably don't have the pieces for just yet.

We started this mess. As soon as a few people In the community started raging about diddy, everyone and their mother hopped on that band wagon. Now everyone's crying "op" even if they have no idea why. I'm not pointing any fingers ( though I suspect it's radical larry's fault. It's always his fault) but we all need to calm down. Give it more time, the game is still real new.

I'm not so naive to think every character in this game is viable, but we should at least keep a positive mindset about everyone's viability for the time being. The moment we stop caring about anybody but the top five is the moment the metagame is doomed.

 

[⑨ball]

A lot of us Pac-Man mains have been saying this for a while but no one here seems to listen to us.

It's not really surprising on either account. A lot of under repped characters seem to do really well against high tiers, but opinions on the matter don't seem to hold weight until video arrives. It seems on paper prowess is simply not enough.

How does Pac do against Sonic btw? I've been thinking for a while now that trampoline and hydrant both seems like really powerful options against Sonic's ground game. I'd also imagine that better players than me would find some use for the key beyond z dropping bait.

 

[Smog Frog]

the issue is setting up those tools before sonic is in ur face

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

In my limited experience it seemed even.

 

[TriTails]

Sheik's bair kills from center stage at like 145%. People really exaggerate her kill power.

Well, Sheik won't really want to kill you from the center of the stage. Us Luigi mains also has a B-air that kills at 140% in the middle of FD, but we consider it a great killing tool. Sheik doesn't outright kill you really, she edgeguard with it.

Speaking of Pac VS Sonic, can't Pac just Trampoline right from the start? Even the fastest thing alive (The one that outspeeds even the Hyper Speed Shulk) won't be able to pass through... I think.

To be fair, Sonic also has his great aerial mobility, so navigating through Pac's tools shouldn't be too hard, at least.

Though, I can see Pac bashing a Hydrant or two when Sonic is recovering with his vertical Up-b (The hedgehog got his air speed to thank of), so..... off-stage is Pac's?

I play Sonic occasionally, but I have no memory of fighting Pac with him. I can imagine it being even, but take this with a grain of salt.

 

[thehard]

Wow, Abadango is really gonna turn some heads at Apex. He knows his character so well.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I take it he's the Pac-man to watch?

 

[Nabbitnator]

I noticed that that players from other regions had ways to escape diddy's up air nonsense other then air dodging and ways to get out of shieks usual strings.

Edit: we should try to look into stuff like that.

 

[HeroMystic]

I also noticed they got out of ZSS's Up-B very frequently. I'm not sure if it was SDI or Nairo using bad placement.

 

[Smog Frog]

what frames do non-helplessness inducing up bs come out(bowser jr, sonic, gnw, etc)

 

[thehard]

See, I have the utmost confidence in the "weirdly technical" characters like Pac, Villager, and WFT, but they're very low on national/international rep so it's hard for me to talk much about them. Almost no tournament footage outside of early 3DS games either.

Still confident.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Isn't the only thing that's sub par about WFT his/her range? Can that be helped with kara smashing? There are probably other things but I can't remember.

 

[Judo777]

Well, Sheik won't really want to kill you from the center of the stage. Us Luigi mains also has a B-air that kills at 140% in the middle of FD, but we consider it a great killing tool. Sheik doesn't outright kill you really, she edgeguard with it.

Speaking of Pac VS Sonic, can't Pac just Trampoline right from the start? Even the fastest thing alive (The one that outspeeds even the Hyper Speed Shulk) won't be able to pass through... I think.

To be fair, Sonic also has his great aerial mobility, so navigating through Pac's tools shouldn't be too hard, at least.

Though, I can see Pac bashing a Hydrant or two when Sonic is recovering with his vertical Up-b (The hedgehog got his air speed to thank of), so..... off-stage is Pac's?

I play Sonic occasionally, but I have no memory of fighting Pac with him. I can imagine it being even, but take this with a grain of salt.

That was 145% on Battlefield on Metaknight with No DI. It later than that under normal conditions. Bair also has a specific sweet spot. And it will rarely be fresh that late in a stock.

Also sheik wants to kill people anywhere she can, beggars can't be choosers lol

 

[HeroMystic]

WFT has potential and we need to see if anyone besides TKBreezy can tap into her, but her real pitfalls come from her being pretty weak if she doesn't have Deep Breathing stacking her damage and KBG.

Sun Salutation and Volleyball are both pretty strong camping/punish tools, and her smash attacks are impressively strong, but her combo game is average while her recovery is exploitable.

 

[⑨ball]

Isn't the only thing that's sub par about WFT his/her range? Can that be helped with kara smashing? There are probably other things but I can't remember.

The range thing is a myth actually. She's got more range than the Mario bros on pretty much everything and stutter stepping puts her above ZSS' Fsmash range. Tons more lag however. Meaning outside of tilts and specials she's committing a lot harder.

Her biggest issue is that despite the range she's got high seated hit bubbles which will whiff animations that put characters lower to the ground and that's not something you can risk with her end lag on smashes.

WFT has potential and we need to see if anyone besides TKBreezy can tap into her, but her real pitfalls come from her being pretty weak if she doesn't have Deep Breathing stacking her damage and KBG.

Sun Salutation and Volleyball are both pretty strong camping/punish tools, and her smash attacks are impressively strong, but her combo game is average while her recovery is exploitable.

Her being weak is also a myth. WFT has kill setups on everyone in the cast at decent and early percents. She also builds damage pretty well and it's sub par combo if it does less than 20%.

Not sure where you got info on her combo game as that's completely false.

Recovery is nothing amazing, but gets better coverage than Rosalina's at least and goes farther than Sheik's teleport.

TKBreezy is cool, but I wouldn't say he's tapped into her at all as he doesn't use anything we've discovered. Anti is the same way. It's like watching Goku fight without turning into a super saiyan. Impressive but questionable.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I am curious. Who would you suggest watching?

 

[Terotrous]

Whether he is bad or not in the Wii-U version I do not know.

But god do I know I hate playing as him in this game. He's no where near as fun as his Brawl incarnation.

Olimar was only ever fun in Brawl if you were playing as him. Playing against him was like repeatedly hitting your head against a wall.

I may be a little late to the party here but man, if you can just play safe until kill percent I'm amazed that the pros get hit at all. Why do they ever not just play safe?

Fighting games are all about risk vs reward. Every time I do some move (even a defensive move), there's a certain benefit that I could gain if I am successful and a certain risk I expose myself to if I am not. For example, think about a roll. If I succeed, I avoid damage and possibly gain positioning or reset the situation. If I get read, I take some damage. So should I just roll around forever and not attack at all? Well, no, that's a bad idea because I'm going to get hit eventually and I won't be doing any damage myself. This is why you can't just play safe forever. Even defensive options confer some degree of risk. The optimal way to play neutral is generally to attack with low-risk high-reward attacks, thus ideally allowing you to deal more damage than you take.

However, the amount of risk associated with a certain action can change depending on the matchup. For example, if a character is shielding and my move is safe on shield, the risk is effectively zero to perform that move. But some moves that are safe on shield are not safe against everyone, so against those characters the risk in performing that move on their shield is much higher and it likely isn't worth it. Similarly, there's always a question of just how hard a character can punish. Ganon punishes HARD, so anything that exposes you to some sort of counterattack is much riskier against him than against a weaker opponent. However, the risk in cheesing Ganon out with projectiles is much less than against more mobile characters because it's a lot harder for him to get around them. This is why "playing safe" works so well against Ganon but not against, say, Sheik, where you're pretty much always exposed to at least a little bit of risk.

The comparison to other fighting games is strange - it's not unheard of for grapplers to be top tier (AC Potemkin I believe, off the top of my head)

Potemkin totally looks high tier in Xrd thanks to YRCs. A grappler who has an armoured forward dash that they can cancel into either a command grab or an anti-air grab? Who thought that was a good idea?

(Admittedly, everything in Xrd is complete nonsense so maybe this isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things)

 

[HeroMystic]

Her being weak is also a myth. WFT has kill setups on everyone in the cast at decent and early percents. She also builds damage pretty well and it's sub par combo if it does less than 20%.

Not sure where you got info on her combo game as that's completely false.

Recovery is nothing amazing, but gets better coverage than Rosalina's at least and goes farther than Sheik's teleport.

TKBreezy is cool, but I wouldn't say he's tapped into her at all as he doesn't use anything we've discovered. Anti is the same way. It's like watching Goku fight without turning into a super saiyan. Impressive but questionable.

My information comes from watching streams and what I've experienced in tournaments.

If WFT has kill setups that doesn't involve Deep Breathing at early/mid percents, I'd like to be enlightened on what those are.

 

[mimgrim]

Id have to disagree. Extra hitstun allows for a lot of fun strings with Oli, his new recovery is a godsent and he can go off stage, a lot more offensive options (not that he isn't still super defensive but still way less so than Brawl), much much better Nolimar, Pikmin management feels super fluid. I love Oli in this one, he just feels so much more balanced (in terms of his moveset and play style, not like tiers balanced). That's just me though.
Not that I think he's better, but he just seems to make more sense as far as how all his moves work.
Also Pikmin carrying items to Olimar is the best buff anyone has ever gotten in Smash, if only for how cute it is.

Also Alph is rad. Still prefer the captain though.

I'm probably the only person alive who thinks of his new recovery as a nerf. You have to get rid of your Pikmin to make it worthwhile and with only 3 available Pikmin that is a big deal (plus it isn't hard to interrupter him out it so that though he might always be able to have the chance to come back but that doesn't matter when you take a lot of damage in the process) and his Brawl recover would be absolutely fantastic in this game due to the way tethers work now and the way the ledge works (he would be beaten out by just grabbing the ledge in this game). You shouldn't be going Nolimar anyway. The set order of plucking Pikmin is ok but I absolutely hate only 3 Pikmin. Plus various other changes done to certain other moves (he went from having the best grab in the game to one of the worst grabs, the turning of most of/all(?) his moves that involve Pikmin to have projectile like properties, Uair and Usmash, and a few other little things. The only thing I like about this new Olimar is set Pikmin order. Olimar didn't just receive a lot of nerfs (which he did) but was also change rather fundamentally from what he was in Brawl. They took out/changed what made him fun to play as in Brawl. They took out what I enjoyed from him.

Olimar was only ever fun in Brawl if you were playing as him. Playing against him was like repeatedly hitting your head against a wall.

That just added more to him being fun to play as in Brawl (I'm the only Oli player in my region). :^)

 

[⑨ball]

I am curious. Who would you suggest watching?

If this was in response to me, TKBreezy and Anti are the only people who go to tournaments often enough to have anything available to watch. Though I'm not sure if Anti is actually maining him so much as just being Anti and good with everyone.

My information comes from watching streams and what I've experienced in tournaments.

If WFT has kill setups that doesn't involve Deep Breathing at early/mid percents, I'd like to be enlightened on what those are.

Soft nair to usmash kills Rosalina at around 70%. It doesn't get much higher for other characters and doesn't need 100+ % against anyone who isn't a heavy. Even then you'll never need more than 120.

Not to mention this is without rage. By comparison, SS fully charged doesn't become a viable kill move mid screen until around 130%. Which is fair I suppose, given that it's a safe kill move.

 

[Radical Larry]

My information comes from watching streams and what I've experienced in tournaments.

If WFT has kill setups that doesn't involve Deep Breathing at early/mid percents, I'd like to be enlightened on what those are.

There are some, like D-Throw > U-Air, but it's unreliable unless you're either high in the air, have a light character or are on Battlefield. Then there's F-Throw > F-Air/B-Air, but that too, is unreliable, since they're able to KO at high percentages only. Most of the setups WFT has need high percentages to really work.

If this was in response to me, TKBreezy and Anti are the only people who go to tournaments often enough to have anything available to watch. Though I'm not sure if Anti is actually maining him so much as just being Anti and good with everyone.

Soft nair to usmash kills Rosalina at around 70%. It doesn't get much higher for other characters and doesn't need 100+ % against anyone who isn't a heavy.

Except this one. But my point is, is that most are unreliable without the Deep Breathing move.

 

[⑨ball]

Dthrow doesn't combo into anything. WFT's combo throw is Uthrow and it doesn't work at kill percents. It also only combos on a handful of the cast the rest are frame traps only.

 

[StripedNinja]

I'm probably the only person alive who thinks of his new recovery as a nerf. You have to get rid of your Pikmin to make it worthwhile and with only 3 available Pikmin that is a big deal (plus it isn't hard to interrupter him out it so that though he might always be able to have the chance to come back but that doesn't matter when you take a lot of damage in the process) and his Brawl recover would be absolutely fantastic in this game due to the way tethers work now and the way the ledge works (he would be beaten out by just grabbing the ledge in this game). You shouldn't be going Nolimar anyway. The set order of plucking Pikmin is ok but I absolutely hate only 3 Pikmin. Plus various other changes done to certain other moves (he went from having the best grab in the game to one of the worst grabs, the turning of most of/all(?) his moves that involve Pikmin to have projectile like properties, Uair and Usmash, and a few other little things. The only thing I like about this new Olimar is set Pikmin order. Olimar didn't just receive a lot of nerfs (which he did) but was also change rather fundamentally from what he was in Brawl. They took out/changed what made him fun to play as in Brawl. They took out what I enjoyed from him.



That just added more to him being fun to play as in Brawl (I'm the only Oli player in my region). :^)

It really doesn't matter how good Brawl recovery would be in this game, I'm just looking how good his old one was in Brawl versus how good this one is in this new one. And the fact is that while throwing your pikmin to recover seems like a problem, I often OPT to do that because purple pikmin will knock my opponent back and others will distract them. Being able to use them makes his recovery a lot more safe, and you can usually still manage fine keeping 1 or sometimes 2 with you. Plus, now they go further when thrown, and they will usually land on the stage, waiting for you when you return. Also, you can CONTROL getting less pikmin, you can't get more. It really isn't easily interrupted because your opponent has to predict where you're going to go which is super easy to mix up because you can go to the bottom of the stage and then come up over their heads, plus you can attack out of it. Considering how many times he died in Brawl due to that recovery I'm very very happy, gimping Olimar was like the main way to kill him in Brawl, now its almost impossible. He DEFINITLEY doesn't have one of the worst grabs, it still has good range and is fairly quick compared to other tethers so I'm not sure where you got that idea, PLUS now NO one has grab armor instead of only him not having it. It is not most/all, it's just Smash attacks that reflect. Which actually does suck, I'll admit, but that's probably my biggest complaint. I don't go Nolimar on purpose, but having those options are IMPORTANT to an Olimar player, very VERY important, and now he really does have options even if he has no pikmin, which is why I'm okay with the 3 pikmin. He even has a Nolimar kill move now. Up air is much more useful for juggling, I like it. And yeah he was nerfed, he use to be top tier, but that doesn't mean he's bad. He is VERY different, I will give you that, but like, why did you enjoy him in Brawl? An overpowered grab that you could spam without fear of punishment? Getting 60% off of pikmin throw in 6 seconds? In Brawl I feel like Olimar relied on a few really really powerful things and the rest of his moveset just went to waste. His playstyle was much less varied. Now every move feels useful and I feel like I have a lot more freedom in how I want to play. Don't get me wrong, I loved playing Olimar in Brawl, but I'm enjoying the new one a lot better. Not to say he's stronger, just a lot funner.

 

[⑨ball]

What are people's thoughts on T.Link?

I was looking at some of the kill throws in the game and he was surprisingly high. Having a kill throw option in this game seems so valuable.

 

[StripedNinja]

Olimar was only ever fun in Brawl if you were playing as him. Playing against him was like repeatedly hitting your head against a wall.

Can't argue there. I play Olimar in every game he's in, but Olimar dittos are my LEAST favorite set to play.

 

[Terotrous]

I actually really wish Olimar still had 5 pikmin and he still had Pikmin chain. I loved using that move for kills. I'm sure there would be all kinds of true combos into it now with the new hitstun mechanics.


Now that you can no longer edgehog it would also be a perfectly fine recovery move.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Potemkin totally looks high tier in Xrd thanks to YRCs. A grappler who has an armoured forward dash that they can cancel into either a command grab or an anti-air grab? Who thought that was a good idea?

(Admittedly, everything in Xrd is complete nonsense so maybe this isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things)

You are so wrong about this that it hurts my brain. Xrd!Potemkin, at the moment, is bottom tier. Literally every character in the cast benefits from the new RC mechanics better than he does (even Slayer), and a lot of the tools that he had from AC and +R that made him a threat (vacuum effect on certain normals, OTG Slide Head) are gone. His best mixups are limited to "did they safe jump? Command grab." The ability to cancel Hammerfall into anything isn't even all that threatening, especially since your opponent also has the option to YRC if they can and get the hell out of dodge and/or counterattack if need be.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

You are so wrong about this that it hurts my brain. Xrd!Potemkin, at the moment, is bottom tier. Literally every character in the cast benefits from the new RC mechanics better than he does (even Slayer), and a lot of the tools that he had from AC and +R that made him a threat (vacuum effect on certain normals, OTG Slide Head) are gone. His best mixups are limited to "did they safe jump? Command grab."

I don't claim to be an expert on the Arcsys fighters, but I have a friend who is obsessed with them (he's one of the best SLab players in the US for P4A) and he was linking me to a bunch of videos of some crazy Japanese Potemkin player tearing everyone up. I'm pretty sure this is the guy, though this probably isn't the exact video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0INxOArkC24

Still looks pretty scary to me. Ganon would love to have the ability to cancel Wizard Foot into neutral or something.

 

[StripedNinja]

I actually really wish Olimar still had 5 pikmin and he still had Pikmin chain. I loved using that move for kills. I'm sure there would be all kinds of true combos into it now with the new hitstun mechanics.


Now that you can no longer edgehog it would also be a perfectly fine recovery move.

Yeah, well, more Pikmin would be nice, granted, but 3 Pikmin are a lot easier to manage and set up how I would like, so it isn't a total loss. And even if it couldn't be edgegaurded it still wouldn't go nearly as far as some of the others, and if you're caught off stage without any Pikmin and you lose your jump you would still be dead. I would hate to have it back