Character Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

Ganondorf seems like the brawl DeDeDe of this game. bar chain grabs of death. I feel like he does well against loads of non-top tier characters, which places him in the mid tier range-ish. He looks like another one of those counterpick characters that you don't want to pick when you're picking first, since he has the potential to get wrecked by some characters, you feel?

Ganondorf doesn't dominate anyone in the way Brawl Dedede did. Every character on the roster has something that works against Ganon, even if it's not always enough to translate into a favorable matchup. Ganondorf hard counters no one due to the unsafe nature of the character. The other thing is that even in Ganon's worst MUs he's always just a good hitstring away from being back in the game.

I know he's bad against high tier characters and even top tiers especially, but what I'm trying to get at (and what I should have said instead), is that Ganondorf is a good, viable character, with some flaws, but not too much. He's not at all a bad character.

I don't think he's a bad character either, but it's not a good idea to throw out terms like high tier without a good grasp of what they really mean. I love Ganondorf as much as the next guy, but the reality is that playing him in tourney means slogging through a lot of bad MUs, and calling him high tier is misleading because his viability is not comparable to actual high tiers like Yoshi, Ness, Zero Suit, etc.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf doesn't dominate anyone in the way Brawl Dedede did. Every character on the roster has something that works against Ganon, even if it's not always enough to translate into a favorable matchup. Ganondorf hard counters no one due to the unsafe nature of the character. The other thing is that even in Ganon's worst MUs he's always just a good hitstring away from being back in the game.

I don't think he's a bad character either, but it's not a good idea to throw out terms like high tier without a good grasp of what they really mean. I love Ganondorf as much as the next guy, but the reality is that playing him in tourney means slogging through a lot of bad MUs, and calling him high tier is misleading because his viability is not comparable to actual high tiers like Yoshi, Ness, Zero Suit, etc.

Yeah, you're right about that. It's just that I feel he's a really great character, despite the somewhat bad MU for him against highs and tops. I say he can stretch direct middle at 28/29 on the charts.

 

[Nobie]

Didn't people not so long ago go over the idea that it's actually really hard to do a Ganondorf matchup chart because of how strong he is if you can successfully read your opponent?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...you can still analyze the character's MUs based on how he performs overall, not just in a vacuum where he successfully lands attacks all the live-long day.

If I could do that with my main, shoot... D3 for top tier.

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeroMystic]

...you can still analyze the character's MUs based on how he performs overall, not just in a vacuum where he successfully lands attacks all the live-long day.

It's the Grappler's Dilemma. If the opponent makes a tons of mistakes, the grappler wins, but if the opponent plays perfectly, then the grappler outright loses.

Ganondorf isn't exactly a grappler, but his raw power and low speed does fit the bill.

 

[Ffamran]

1-4 Frame Aerials:
Diddy: Uair (3)
Falco: Nair (3)
Fox: Nair (4)
Little Mac: Nair (2)
Lucario: Dair (4)
Luigi: Nair (3)
Mario/DMario: Nair (3) ,Uair (4)
MetaKnight: Dair (4)
MiiFighter: Nair (3)
Villager: Nair (3)
Pikachu: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Pit/Dpit: Nair (4)
Megaman: Nair (2)
Sheik: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Yoshi: Nair (3)

Late, but Falco also has a frame 4 Bair.

 

[Judo777]

Also Lil mac and Megaman are the only characters in smash (aside from MK) that have frame 2 aerials lol

 

[Asdioh]

I think this has been settled already, but while Ganondorf's strong, he struggles too hard against high tier characters to be a high tier. All he does is make people play safer than they normally would, and then you see how much of a hard time he really has.

It reminds me of something where a dude punched so hard, he caused a shockwave through the air or something... I don't remember if this was from a game, an anime, or a cartoon. Well, it's no surprise since Captain Falcon can punch a flaming falcon after all.

So, does Captain Falcon have the longest disjoint with his rapid jab finisher?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6BGAAJNRn0 good times

I didn't realize the animation for Falcon's jab finisher was matched so poorly to the hitbox, but now that I saw the slow motion gif I understand. People accused Kirby of the same thing, but if you actually watch the animation, the hitbox (Smash Punch!) is clearly there, so it's not as deceptive as Falcon's.

Too bad so many of the jab finishers of this nature are heavily punishable, even after hitconfirming.

 

[Kofu]

Little Mac's a top-tier aerial threat, NAirs all day.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lil'Mac's aerials are actually quite usable. I'm surprised I've only seen one player do this thus far, and he's not even a Lil'Mac main.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Lil'Mac's aerials are actually quite usable. I'm surprised I've only seen one player do this thus far, and he's not even a Lil'Mac main.

I too am guilty of actually finding a use for Mac's aerials.

Smooth Criminal

 

[the king of murder]

The problem with Ganon is..he is not consistent. Nothing he does is safe. He does have a great movepool but none of them are really safe against characters with decent mobility or projectiles. Yes, the rewards for reading your opponents successfully are the best in the game and he can end stocks faster than anyone but to get Ganon rolling in the first place you have to take an inconsistent element into account: Will he do as I predict?

What do the decent to the best characters have? They have at least one safe option. The jabs of other hard hitting heavies are good enough to give them a safe option, should they feel pressured plus it gives them a safe way to rack up damage, if they fail to read their opponent successfully. Other punished based characters like ZSS has ways to pressure their opponents into a mistake(neutral-b, up-b OoS, her grab and dash attack mix-up) plus safe options while Ganon trades this kind of consistency for the most brutal punish game.

Being safe is a lot more important in high level play, because they make fewer mistakes as they go up.

I just wish Ganon's jab would be frame 3.

 

[Kofu]

Lil'Mac's aerials are actually quite usable. I'm surprised I've only seen one player do this thus far, and he's not even a Lil'Mac main.

You can definitely hit people with them and NAir is a great interrupter. I mainly wish they had slightly bigger hit boxes and less landing lag.

 

[irokex13]

(that would go to Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, Marth, Lucina, Link, Falcon, Fox, Ness, Greninja, Pikachu, Bowser, Toon Link, Yoshi and ZSS, in no particular order).

Some questionable placements in your top 15... can you offer an explanation for the bolded characters?

 

[Nu~]

Greninja as well. I see him in top 20 at the very most

 

[A2ZOMG]

It seems to me that the way Link normally fights is to pester you with projectiles (most notably Boomerang, which has limited range, that's what makes him more of a mid-range character), then play footsies with you when you try to approach. Jab, FTilt, and UTilt all seem like quite good moves to me, you certainly can't approach Link recklessly if you don't want to get sliced up.

Boomerang is most effective when your opponent isn't grounded. Other than that, it doesn't actually add a whole lot to Link's midrange game by itself.

Link's moves are good, but he doesn't have a huge amount of mobility, and everything he can do besides Bomb toss (and of course grab) outside of his Jab range can be blocked reactively. He's pretty bad at playing footsies, and even though his grab does cover good options in midrange, it's very risky and his throws are overall the worst in the game. Meaning more often than not, against characters that are able to just simply wait outside of Link's Jab range, he loses to basic risk/reward reads.

This is why I believe someone like Ganondorf for instance has the advantage against Link. His D-tilt, DA, and N-air are all superior tools in midrange, and Link fundamentally has a huge amount of trouble actually confirming good reward against Ganondorf. Even though he can technically shieldgrab a lot of Ganon's moves, Ganondorf gets far more reward for spotdodging or jumping above the grab and then punishing, especially since Link is very easily edgeguarded by Ganon.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The problem with Ganon is..he is not consistent. Nothing he does is safe. He does have a great movepool but none of them are really safe against characters with decent mobility or projectiles. Yes, the rewards for reading your opponents successfully are the best in the game and he can end stocks faster than anyone but to get Ganon rolling in the first place you have to take an inconsistent element into account: Will he do as I predict?

What do the decent to the best characters have? They have at least one safe option. The jabs of other hard hitting heavies are good enough to give them a safe option, should they feel pressured plus it gives them a safe way to rack up damage, if they fail to read their opponent successfully. Other punished based characters like ZSS has ways to pressure their opponents into a mistake(neutral-b, up-b OoS, her grab and dash attack mix-up) plus safe options while Ganon trades this kind of consistency for the most brutal punish game.

Being safe is a lot more important in high level play, because they make fewer mistakes as they go up.

I just wish Ganon's jab would be frame 3.

This is the "Ganon is a low tier" argument in a nutshell. The other side which pegs Ganon as a mid tier points out that he's no longer punished for being unsafe in the same way as he would in previous games due to the absence of 0-deaths, and also points out that he doesn't have to guess right often to get a kill if you're good at capitalizing when he does get in. Right now Ganon's actual tourney results have him around 24th-25th in terms of placings, which would seem to validate the mid-tier side of the argument, though I think a lot of the low tier theorycrafting will play out to some extent and Ganon will probably wind up being ranked in the mid-30s when it's all said and done barring patches. I do agree that Ganon would benefit greatly from a faster jab or better grab range to help with his consistency issues and this should be changed should balance patches occur.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Regarding ganon.

Hes one of the few characters that can convert stockes through hard reads.

but hes also the best character for converting stocks in easy reads.

As in its generally a hard read when ganon managed to land an attack that was not jab or rough wiz choke/kick in neutral.

put ganon in advantage though and u basically got the stock expecially when ur opponent is off stage. since its more telegraohed when your opponent is recovering. ''oh hes going low i got options 2 cover this.'' ''oh hes going high i got options to cover this'' ect

besides ganon is in librarian tier like we discussed a few days ago. cuz dem reads.

also just make side b un techable and we got our selfs a less risk playstyle.

 

[Radical Larry]

Some questionable placements in your top 15... can you offer an explanation for the bolded characters?

Look at how well they all do in tournaments, especially Marth and Lucina.

 

[Saturn_]

Right now Ganon's actual tourney results have him around 24th-25th in terms of placings, which would seem to validate the mid-tier side of the argument, though I think a lot of the low tier theorycrafting will play out to some extent and Ganon will probably wind up being ranked in the mid-30s when it's all said and done barring patches. I do agree that Ganon would benefit greatly from a faster jab or better grab range to help with his consistency issues and this should be changed should balance patches occur.

Look at how well they all do in tournaments, especially Marth and Lucina.

I've seen out-of-date results that track the placement of each character in various tourneys; where can I keep up to date on that?

I think it would be good to study a top 10 char, a top 20, a top 30, and top 40...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucina isn't do ****. Marth is doing ok. Just ok, due to some very dedicated mains.

Also Ganon is not high tier. Who does Ganon actually beat in terms of tools?

No one really except maybe Doc and maybe Samus.

 

[FullMoon]

Fullmoon and Spirst are the two people I think have done a good job explaining Greninja's options in this thread and done so in a serious matter. I haven't heard that other speedsters have better KO setups. I'd argue that Greninja has the best KO setups out of the speedsters (sourspot Nair>usmash, dtilt>usmash, fully charged shuriken>FAir/running shadow sneak, etc.). Underused seems to be odd word to use when you are referencing a player base that doesn't use Greninja. Underrated, sure I guess, but I feel like undereducated is a more appropriate word. Upwards sub does more knockback than sweetspot usmash. There are gifs floating around of Greninja edge guarding Shulk with it because he can't sweetspot the edge easily... Dirty dirty stuff.

If you're talking about this. Then it was me who found that out, though I'm sure somebody else must've figured this before me, I just probably never saw someone try it.

Greninja as well. I see him in top 20 at the very most

I'm biased, but I think Greninja is Top 20 at the very least, he's a weird character for sure, but he's still a very dangerous threat because of how unpredictable he can be, as well as having great kill setups and being very able to juggle opponents in the air. Greninja's main problem is getting the first hit in to start doing all of that, but once that happens (and it's not that hard to get the first hit, Greninja has plenty of options, he relies on being unpredictable and making your opponent guess wrong) he can make reseting to neutral very hard.

Greninja is quite the tricky beast because he just doesn't play like a typical character in any way, which is part of the reason I love playing with him. He's very, very unique, but that makes it harder for us to master him or make full use of his moves. I believe once people start figuring him out he will become much stronger in the meta as long as he's being played by someone who is good at mindgames.

 

[HeavyLobster]

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-wii-u.8/league/teams
This is what I'm using for reference when it comes to tourney results. And no, Marth and Lucina are not doing particularly well except for Lucina having a rather high number of #1 finishes, which is pretty unreliable due to a very small sample size. Tourney results as is aren't super reliable just yet, but we do have a couple of months of data to look at and it's interesting to compare it to the current consensus about character placement.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The underlying principle can probably be applied well by multiple characters. I know Greninja can do airdodge away -> D-Air in much the same way, for example. I think it might give some of them a nudge upward.

 

[Nu~]

If you're talking about this. Then it was me who found that out, though I'm sure somebody else must've figured this before me, I just probably never saw someone try it.



I'm biased, but I think Greninja is Top 20 at the very least, he's a weird character for sure, but he's still a very dangerous threat because of how unpredictable he can be, as well as having great kill setups and being very able to juggle opponents in the air. Greninja's main problem is getting the first hit in to start doing all of that, but once that happens (and it's not that hard to get the first hit, Greninja has plenty of options, he relies on being unpredictable and making your opponent guess wrong) he can make reseting to neutral very hard.

Greninja is quite the tricky beast because he just doesn't play like a typical character in any way, which is part of the reason I love playing with him. He's very, very unique, but that makes it harder for us to master him or make full use of his moves. I believe once people start figuring him out he will become much stronger in the meta as long as he's being played by someone who is good at mindgames.

Amazing! To me, he felt like a very unique character with all the right tools to play tricks on the opponent. I just felt that he struggled a bit in nuetral. I love unique and weird characters (hence why I main Pac-Man)
I was originally planning to main pac-man, and have mega man, pit and greninja as secondaries. But alas, he just felt so slippery and awkward to use (I felt like I needed a more dynamic controller lol)

But your words may have encouraged me to try him again

 

[Opana]

Wait were you trying to say she will be or will not be high tier in the long run, cause you said she will be but then the rest of your post contradicted that statement..

I hink she will be high tier still, her combos and strings are great and her recovery is pretty up there too. I just feel against some bigger threats like Diddy she's even at best(Which is still good). She's definitely not a bad character but I think, like Diddy, her meta has been pretty easy to develop while others are a bit behind. Not saying they don't require skill, but their uses were pretty straightforward.

Also, isn't a frame trap cafching them in an action so they can't escape? I think Nair can reasonably do this but not too effectively. Bair's hitbox as far as I know doesn't last too long and the range is lacking I feel. It'd have to catch them like any other move most likely, coming out of the air dodge. Fish is by far her best kill move iml, I mean yes usmash and vanish are stronger but ghe likelihood of hitting with either is slim, although admittedly I time Vanish's invincibility frames as a sort of counter in some scenarios.

 

[StripedNinja]

What is the general consensus of Olimar? People still think he's bad?

 

[meleebrawler]

What is the general consensus of Olimar? People still think he's bad?

He's one of those "got a lot worse from Brawl" characters where the shock of large nerfs
caused overreactions in some people, declaring them to be very bad. Victims also include
Meta Knight, Falco and Toon Link to a lesser extent. Ike got some of this too, until people realised
his changes made him better in 1v1s than before.

 

[Pazx]

"Does Pikachu have an infinite? I think I'm going to look into that" - GimR 2k15

Quick attack looks dirty honestly, seemingly free followups. VGBC uploaded a bunch of vids of Esam at KiT 15 and I think they're our best starting point for high-level Pika play so I encourage you to check them out. He used QA too riskily on shield but some of the things he did were fantastic. It looks like he might be top tier, but he needs TAS levels of perfection to excel. Discuss.

What is the general consensus of Olimar? People still think he's bad?

Not anymore, he supposedly doesn't have too much trouble with Sheik/Diddy but struggles against characters with reflectors without making incredible reads.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Lucina isn't do ****. Marth is doing ok. Just ok, due to some very dedicated mains.

Also Ganon is not high tier. Who does Ganon actually beat in terms of tools?

No one really except maybe Doc and maybe Samus.

sniff that hurt me as a samus main.

but ganon is ganon. u get 2 predidctable u die thats the end of it really. and being unpredictable and safe at the same time. can be almost impossible its all up 2 the ganon player to do something about there windows of opportunity.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I hink she will be high tier still, her combos and strings are great and her recovery is pretty up there too. I just feel against some bigger threats like Diddy she's even at best(Which is still good). She's definitely not a bad character but I think, like Diddy, her meta has been pretty easy to develop while others are a bit behind. Not saying they don't require skill, but their uses were pretty straightforward.

Also, isn't a frame trap cafching them in an action so they can't escape? I think Nair can reasonably do this but not too effectively. Bair's hitbox as far as I know doesn't last too long and the range is lacking I feel. It'd have to catch them like any other move most likely, coming out of the air dodge. Fish is by far her best kill move iml, I mean yes usmash and vanish are stronger but ghe likelihood of hitting with either is slim, although admittedly I time Vanish's invincibility frames as a sort of counter in some scenarios.

Frame traps can be escaped. A frame trap you leave some gaps in your block strings. If you don't leave gaps it becomes a true block string. You're normally at advantage when doing frame traps. But if your opponent has an invincible reversal you're going to eat that.

 

[Trifroze]

Lastly, he has the two cheapest tools in his arsenal to guarantee KOs, which are Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke. He also has a decent edge-guarding game with his F-Tilt, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, F-Smash Downward and Wizard's Foot Grounded all being decent edge-guard tools.

Ganondorf has the best edgeguarding capabilities in the game hands down, but the reason for it is his aerials, most notably fair and reverse uair with their massive hitboxes and power. Dair, bair and choke are harder to land but will score a KO at virtually any %.

Ganondorf is probably bottom mid tier if the tiers are to be top, high, mid, low and bottom. Only with customs I'd dare to consider him high, because his recovery becomes excellent meaning he can actually live to high %s much more often and kill ridiculously early.

 

[san.]

Ganon also has run off frontal uair, which has decent horizontal range and kills heavies on BF at 100.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ganon also has run off frontal uair, which has decent horizontal range and kills heavies on BF at 100.

lets not forget backwards u air witch has a strange hit box at a down 45 degree angle.

 

[Pyr]

Ganondorf has the best edgeguarding capabilities in the game hands down, but the reason for it is his aerials, most notably fair and reverse uair with their massive hitboxes and power. Dair, bair and choke are harder to land but will score a KO at virtually any %.

Ganondorf is probably bottom mid tier if the tiers are to be top, high, mid, low and bottom. Only with customs I'd dare to consider him high, because his recovery becomes excellent meaning he can actually live to high %s much more often and kill ridiculously early.

Let's go over his edge things real quick:

Bair - Good priority. Getting hit with it off stage kills most the cast at 60%, or sends them out too far to recover, or guarantees a low recovery. He can also do 2 from hanging from the edge and get back, covering direct and low options. Further, it's easy to hit after a ledge trump.

Uair - Kills later then bair for the main hitbox, but the back hitbox (second half of the move, at the feet) works like it did Melee: Won't outright kill, but forces a low recovery for most the cast. It's also easy to hit the weaker hit on edge trump.

Fair - Wizard Kick Cancel > Fair can work on some of the cast, netting early kills. Like, 50% early kills. That said, a solid Fair hit will kill earlier then Bair, but it sends them higher, so they can recover high or low.

Dair - Sourspot kills at about the same as Bair. Sweetspot (aka most of the move) outright kills, or causes a telegraphed recovery. You can Dair again, assuming they have a vertical recovery. If not, enjoy your free stock.

Utilt - Unconventional a bit, but it's hitbox is huge and lingers for a few frames. I list it because of it's trap potential and because it's strongest hitbox is a shield-break 100% of the time. Forces certain get-up options from the ledge. Ex: If they stand, attack, or roll on stage, they get hit by it when spaced well. They either have to jump, drop-jump, or just drop to avoid it. It also heavily punishes anything that doesn't sweetspot.

Really, I think Ganon will be a solid High-Mid, as customs will help him out a lot, a practiced Ganon will completely shut down most non-invincible recoveries, and the requirement to get reads on everything will become lessened as his Metagame, and approaches, develop against the entire cast.

Plus his Upsmash is godlike. 99% sure it gives Kicking Leg and Head invincibility on start-up. Don't quote me on it, because I haven't directly tested it. Just an observation in 1k or so Ganon matches.

 

[HeroMystic]

After watching Kit 15, BEAST 5, and NC5, I'm starting to feel that Diddy will not be as dominant of a character anymore. A lot of players are starting to work around his neutrals and exploit his poor recovery.

He'll probably remain Top 3, if not #1, but I think it's going to feel more like Melee where it'll be a constant war between the top/high tiers.

 

[⑨ball]

Ganondorf has the best edgeguarding capabilities in the game hands down

Not sure I agree with this, but I'd definitely love to be persuaded. Ganon has strong aerials and unquestioned power, but with how easy it is to recover in this game, his limit in going deep, and how many characters can be covered by their specials (ex: Villager Loid). Wouldn't this hinder his position in edgeguarding in comparison to a character like Ness who can throw out PKT with relative safety and kill from below the stage with Uair?

 

[Trifroze]

Not sure I agree with this, but I'd definitely love to be persuaded. Ganon has strong aerials and unquestioned power, but with how easy it is to recover in this game, his limit in going deep, and how many characters can be covered by their specials (ex: Villager Loid). Wouldn't this hinder his position in edgeguarding in comparison to a character like Ness who can throw out PKT with relative safety and kill from below the stage with Uair?

PK Thunder can't really do much more than Ganondorf can against the really good recoveries, while a high level Ganondorf will outright destroy all the stoppable ones. Meanwhile, you'll be lucky to get 10-20% damage with PK Thunder plus an uair with Ness (most of Ganondorf's aerials do about 20% each). In general, there are very few situations where a character is able to cover their recovery with projectiles so well that Ganondorf can't intercept it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Not sure I agree with this, but I'd definitely love to be persuaded. Ganon has strong aerials and unquestioned power, but with how easy it is to recover in this game, his limit in going deep, and how many characters can be covered by their specials (ex: Villager Loid). Wouldn't this hinder his position in edgeguarding in comparison to a character like Ness who can throw out PKT with relative safety and kill from below the stage with Uair?

ganon fair can beat outawell placed lyoid. its a bad trade for villager since he will most likly die. amd evem if he postions the lyoid right in front of the ledge that leaves him open to even more dangerous of ganons options like dair.

 

[Zelder]

Pikachu has far, far superior edge guarding capabilities to Ganondorf.

I understand it's exciting to see him be viable in this game, but let's keep some sense of perspective, people.