Character Competitive Impressions

[Pyr]

Pikachu has far, far superior edge guarding capabilities to Ganondorf.

I understand it's exciting to see him be viable in this game, but let's keep some sense of perspective, people.

As someone who hasn't seen/played against/played as Pika very much, could you extrapolate? Not saying you're wrong. Just want to see what you do. =p

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pikachu has far, far superior edge guarding capabilities to Ganondorf.

I understand it's exciting to see him be viable in this game, but let's keep some sense of perspective, people.

the way they edge guard seem like polar opposites. pika hits u with several weakish hits cuz of the flexibility of his recovery making gimping no problem. And ganon well just hits u and u die.

pika's all about that pressure. and ganons all about the one capitalization.

in terms of witch ones more effective i dunno. most charaters with god tier recovery are light enough for ganon 2 take out. but pika has the same edge gaurding plan for almost every character how much its effective is determined by the flexablity of his opponents recovery.

 

[Smog Frog]

the thing with villager's lloid rocket is that 1. its a huge commitment and 2. it doesnt cover above him, so its basically asking to get thunderstomped(reactable start up doesnt really help it either)

also, pika and ganon edgeguard differently. pikachu gimps your recovery, ganon sends you past the blast zone.

 

[⑨ball]

PK Thunder can't really do much more than Ganondorf can against the really good recoveries, while a high level Ganondorf will outright destroy all the stoppable ones. Meanwhile, you'll be lucky to get 10-20% damage with PK Thunder plus an uair with Ness (most of Ganondorf's aerials do about 20% each). In general, there are very few situations where a character is able to cover their recovery with projectiles so well that Ganondorf can't intercept it.

I'd say PKT can do quite a bit more than Ganon considering it's multiple hitboxes that create powerful frametraps. It can also travel much higher and lower unless I'm mistaken. While there's no debate Ganon has the power to hurt anything he catches, I just don't see him being able to cover options the way other characters can as he can't stay too far off stage for too long. He hits hard yes, but I just don't see his aerials with their long recovery being something as powerful as you're saying.

I mean, yes if we're assuming he always hits, then yes, he's uncontested, but this isn't a game where people are just going to drift into attacks. You need to be able to cover options.

ganon fair can beat outawell placed lyoid. its a bad trade for villager since he will most likly die. amd evem if he postions the lyoid right in front of the ledge that leaves him open to even more dangerous of ganons options like dair.

We're talking about offstage Loid here, yes? As in Villager attempts to recover, uses a loid rocket from about a double jump's length away, and then recovers under it using rising pocket, or fair? I know the loid can be beaten, but can Ganon really get his fair out on reaction and punish Villager through the loid for a bad trade?

 

[Psyant]

It does really depend on the character you're trying to edgeguard. Pikachu can gimp many characters reliably as he has fast aerials, can go very deep and also reach high recoveries with a well placed thunder cloud spike, but remember that he doesn't have a single aerial with high knockback. Some recoveries are relatively easy to intercept but long-reaching, like Pit's, and Pikachu would have to hit Pit several times without screwing up to kill him where Ganon would just stomp on his face once and be done with it. It's not as clear cut as "this character is always better at edgeguarding than this one". Ganon and Pika's edgeguarding styles are pretty different and they both have their merits.

 

[Pyr]

We're talking about offstage Loid here, yes? As in Villager attempts to recover, uses a loid rocket from about a double jump's length away, and then recovers under it using rising pocket, or fair? I know the loid can be beaten, but can Ganon really get his fair out on reaction and punish Villager through the loid for a bad trade?

I think a Ganon player would be able to, ya. Fair only has a 14 frame startup. While that is slow by a lot of standards, it isn't slow enough to be un-usable on reaction to a Loid like that.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'd say PKT can do quite a bit more than Ganon considering it's multiple hitboxes that create powerful frametraps. It can also travel much higher and lower unless I'm mistaken. While there's no debate Ganon has the power to hurt anything he catches, I just don't see him being able to cover options the way other characters can as he can't stay too far off stage for too long. He hits hard yes, but I just don't see his aerials with their long recovery being something as powerful as you're saying.

I mean, yes if we're assuming he always hits, then yes, he's uncontested, but this isn't a game where people are just going to drift into attacks. You need to be able to cover options.



We're talking about offstage Loid here, yes? As in Villager attempts to recover, uses a loid rocket from about a double jump's length away, and then recovers under it using rising pocket, or fair? I know the loid can be beaten, but can Ganon really get his fair out on reaction and punish Villager through the loid for a bad trade?

using lyoid from that far away in my experience is not a very good option.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon's edgeguarding works in the same way the rest of his game does. If you read your opponent properly they will die, but you don't really have the mobility to cover many options at once like Pika or something can. It can be hard for Ganon to reliably edgeguard characters with really good recoveries and a variety of mixup options, but if he gets it right he finishes you off in one hit, no questions asked.

 

[Firefoxx]

I'm bored at work so I decided to do some weird/pointless research and looked up the "mains" of the top 50 ranked players on Smashboards. Smashboards rankings are a mess right now (Xanadu is way over represented and some tournaments like KiT 15 haven't been entered) so take all this with a big grain of salt.

Diddy comes in first, being mained by 14 people. The next closest is Sheik with 5 mains. Every other character has between 1 and 3 people maining them.

3 - Sonic, Ness, Rosalina, Fox

2 - C. Falcon, Olimar, Luigi, Peach

1 - Pikachu(!), ZSS(!), Lucario, Mario, Dark Pit/Robin*, ROB, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong, Shulk, Greninja

* - Xzax and Nairo both have about an equal number of uses of both Dark Pit and Robin, though Nairo has been using ZSS lately and Xzax has also been using both Mario and Diddy. (Xzax is the only player I looked at who has used 4 characters in one tournament, though he has only done so once.)

Notable 0-fers - Yoshi and Wario (probably more that I'm not thinking of)

Alright that was fun. More fun then work at least.

 

[Terotrous]

No Yoshi mains placing well in North America? I have salt. Yoshidora, you'd better be coming to Apex.


Also lol at 14 Diddy mains. I hope you're ready for 7 Diddys and a Sheik in top 8!

 

[HeroMystic]

I wouldn't really invest too heavily in researching Smashboards rankings. Not only is it new (therefore not every TO is using it), but it's heavily reliant on local tournament data where some players are plainly better than others.

 

[Firefoxx]

I wouldn't really invest too heavily in researching Smashboards rankings. Not only is it new (therefore not every TO is using it), but it's heavily reliant on local tournament data where some players are plainly better than others.

Oh trust me I know. Boss isn't number 3 because he's the third best Smash 4 player out there, its cause he's done well at Xanadu and GIMR (or whoever) seems to really like the ranking system. It was more just curiosity/wasting time

 

[Gunla]

I wouldn't really invest too heavily in researching Smashboards rankings. Not only is it new (therefore not every TO is using it), but it's heavily reliant on local tournament data where some players are plainly better than others.

Agreed; while there's some good data, you'll get a lot of tourneys where there's the people that just go and the people who are aiming for the glory. It's a tad skewed, no?

It'll definitely get better over time as the system sees more widespread usage, though.

 

[Tagxy]

Thanks for the corrections folks.

"Does Pikachu have an infinite? I think I'm going to look into that" - GimR 2k15

Quick attack looks dirty honestly, seemingly free followups. VGBC uploaded a bunch of vids of Esam at KiT 15 and I think they're our best starting point for high-level Pika play so I encourage you to check them out. He used QA too riskily on shield but some of the things he did were fantastic. It looks like he might be top tier, but he needs TAS levels of perfection to excel. Discuss.

Can you explain where that quote came from? I havent heard anything about it.

As for pika ESAM has never really been the best at using QA. He didnt really like it much in Brawl and then he seems to have gone the opposite end and tried to abuse it too much. He never bothered to explore its weaknesses or when it can be used most effectively. I've meant to write about it, but eh.

 

[Pazx]

Thanks for the corrections folks.

Can you explain where that quote came from? I havent heard anything about it.

As for pika ESAM has never really been the best at using QA. He didnt really like it much in Brawl and then he seems to have gone the opposite end and tried to abuse it too much. He never bothered to explore its weaknesses or when it can be used most effectively. I've meant to write about it, but eh.

I'm not sure how serious GimR was but he said it while commentating one of ESAM's matches at KiT 15, I assume he's thinking about free followups from QA/into QA.

 

[Lavani]

iirc after esam did something like landing fair>utilt GimR was like "Wait, that can combo?", then followed it up with the quote in question.

 

[Terotrous]

Incidentally, this is a bit late to the discussion, but people need to stop talking about the fact that Ganon can kill you with 3 reads as though it's something impressive. Do you know how many reads most characters need to kill you? One. They play neutral until you're at kill percent, then they make a read with a kill move and you die. The super good characters don't even need to make a read, they can convert safe options into a kill. Ganon's neutral is so lacking that making reads is his only reliable method of dealing damage. If you're making 3 great reads per stock, you'll be winning with any character.

 

[Pyr]

Incidentally, this is a bit late to the discussion, but people need to stop talking about the fact that Ganon can kill you with 3 reads as though it's something impressive. Do you know how many reads most characters need to kill you? One. They play neutral until you're at kill percent, then they make a read with a kill move and you die. The super good characters don't even need to make a read, they can convert safe options into a kill. Ganon's neutral is so lacking that making reads is his only reliable method of dealing damage. If you're making 3 great reads per stock, you'll be winning with any character.

You act as if they don't need to make reads to tack on that damage and that they can just exist purely in neutral the entire match. Ganon won't just let you get that damage. You'll still have to earn it through prediction and reads, regardless of how "safe" your options are. You need to make several good reads to get Ganon to KO %. Ganon needs 3 on you to KILL you. Or less.

And, for the record, reads aren't the only thing Ganon has going for him in neutral. He's laggy as ****, but you can't exactly sit in your shield the entire match and expect to win. I can throw out Bair, Uair, Nair, and USmash in neutral and not have to worry about anything because the former 3 are lagless thanks to how they function and USmash is just amazing and most of his moves push half the cast out of grab range for shieldgrabs.

And his grab + Landing lag isn't slow enough to make empty jump + grab unusable. Dthrow + anything that he can use that comes out in 10 frames can combo and lead to different things on most the cast.

It is impressive and worth talking about. He needs less reads then you to win. That is a very nice quality and advantage that will just blossom over time.

 

[Terotrous]

You act as if they don't need to make reads to tack on that damage and that they can just exist purely in neutral the entire match

They generally don't, or at least not what we refer to as "hard reads". For example, with Yoshi, I don't need to make a read to throw eggs at you. Link doesn't have to make a read to toss his boomerang. Diddy doesn't have to make a read to pressure your shield. These characters instead rely on spacing to pressure with relatively safe options, which is much more reliable overall.

Ganon needs 3 on you to KILL you. Or less.

I really think people are underestimating the damage the other characters can do on a hard read. First of all, all heavies kill in 3 reads, Bowser, DK, Ike, Dedede etc will as well. Many characters with big strings, like Ness or Mario for example, will also come very close if not get the kill, especially if they've been racking up damage through neutral.

I can throw out Bair, Uair, Nair, and USmash in neutral and not have to worry about anything because the former 3 are lagless thanks to how they function and USmash is just amazing and most of his moves push half the cast out of grab range for shieldgrabs.

Assuming you're close enough for them to hit, which is the real battle with Ganon. Also, don't forget that the opponents can make a read on you as well. If they read your USmash with Spot Dodge, you're not only getting punished but you're going to have to work your way in again.

In general, it's not really a viable gameplan to assume you will make more correct reads than your opponent. It's nice if it happens, but unless you have a big skill advantage you probably can't count on it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Incidentally, this is a bit late to the discussion, but people need to stop talking about the fact that Ganon can kill you with 3 reads as though it's something impressive. Do you know how many reads most characters need to kill you? One. They play neutral until you're at kill percent, then they make a read with a kill move and you die. The super good characters don't even need to make a read, they can convert safe options into a kill. Ganon's neutral is so lacking that making reads is his only reliable method of dealing damage. If you're making 3 great reads per stock, you'll be winning with any character.

this logic is flawed most safe options are only good for pressure and limiting. if both players play safly than nothing wil occur out of playing safe. if you want 2 acomplish anyhting in this game u HAVE to use an action that can be read. That why being unpredictable is also an important skill.

And realistically the only character that come any where near the same level as potent in damage and knock back as ganon are other heavys.

Diddy cant kill u in one read. HE CAN'T lets say he gets 1 grab and gets 2 u airs thats around 22% there (not killing) get another grab another 2 up airs 44% another grab can only get 1 now around 13%+44%+57% (thats three reads still not killing.)

I just stated the strongest and safest conversion option in the game and i can tell you it will take at least another whole 3 reads before diddy will kill. Thats not even including staling.

(also forgive me if my percents are off i was just reamebering them from the top of my head but they should not be 2 off.)

*also hard reads and reads are very different. ganon does not need 2 hard read u to anti air u with u smash and kill u at 60% not does he need 2 hard read u 2 land a flame choke or hit u with nair or bair or uair f tilt 2 and deffinity does not need a hard read for a down tilt. and all the moves i stated can kill if u refuse to acknowlege it than whatever. there's a reason why people play respectivly towwards ganon in this game. and i belive that pika vs ganon video was a perfect example simply because if u get carried away, u die, end of story.

 

[Terotrous]

this logic is flawed most safe options are only good for pressure and limiting. if both players play safly than nothing wil occur out of playing safe.

There's a limit to how long you can shield because your shield will eventually break. This forces you to either commit to rolls or spot dodges to evade, which are punishable. You cannot evade safe pressure forever.

Diddy cant kill u in one read. HE CAN'T lets say he gets 1 grab and gets 2 u airs thats around 22% there (not killing) get another grab another 2 up airs 44% another grab can only get 1 now around 13%+44%+57% (thats three reads still not killing.)

Diddy doesn't need a read to land his grab. Throwing a banana is not a read, it's safe pressure. That's why he's so scary.

Diddy's true read option is FSmash. Three FSmashes with a little bit of charge behind them will indeed bring you close to death, god forbid if you've already taken a Dthrow or two.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There's a limit to how long you can shield because your shield will eventually break. This forces you to either commit to rolls or spot dodges to evade, which are punishable. You cannot evade safe pressure forever.



Diddy doesn't need a read to land his grab. Throwing a banana is not a read, it's safe pressure. That's why he's so scary.

Diddy's true read option is FSmash. Three FSmashes with a little bit of charge behind them will indeed bring you close to death, god forbid if you've already taken a Dthrow or two.

realistically if u get hit by anything in neutral its because ur opponent made a mistake or u made the read.

also i edited my last post please read.

 

[NairWizard]

You'll still have to earn it through prediction and reads, regardless of how "safe" your options are. You need to make several good reads to get Ganon to KO %. Ganon needs 3 on you to KILL you. Or less.

Not quite true. The top tiers have hitboxes and projectiles that encourage their opponent to make risky moves to get in. Take Ganon vs. Sheik for instance. Sheik can needle camp and space safe f-airs at a distance that Ganon can't easily punish. In order to get in on that, Ganon must make a read. Sheik doesn't have to make reads, though; Sheik just baits and punishes Ganon's read attempts instead, because he's the one forced to make reads. Sure, Sheik can make reads too, if she really wants to, but she has the option to not do that. Ganon doesn't.

You don't need to make reads to build up damage on Ganon. You just need to play safe. Getting the KO is another matter, though.

 

[Terotrous]

realistically if u get hit by anything in neutral its because ur opponent made a mistake or u made the read.

Not really, if you lose the range battle, you will eventually have to try to get in or you will just take free damage. As I said before, you can't just block forever because eventually your shield will wear down. Also, if you're just being passive and trying to avoid damage you're probably also giving up stage position, and when you get backed up to the ledge many opponents can put you into situations where you have to guess right or get hit. There is no "skill" involved in avoiding mixups, just luck.

also i edited my last post please read.

When you have to work your way in through a wall of projectiles or safe hitboxes with the limited mobility of a character like Ganon, it basically does take a hard read to get in close and land a hitbox of your own.

You don't need to make reads to build up damage on Ganon. You just need to play safe. Getting the KO is another matter, though.

This, pretty much. That's why I said most characters need to make one read to make the kill. Potentially zero if you're Diddy or Sheik.

 

[Pyr]

They generally don't, or at least not what we refer to as "hard reads". For example, with Yoshi, I don't need to make a read to throw eggs at you. Link doesn't have to make a read to toss his boomerang. Diddy doesn't have to make a read to pressure your shield. These characters instead rely on spacing to pressure with relatively safe options, which is much more reliable overall.



I really think people are underestimating the damage the other characters can do on a hard read. First of all, all heavies kill in 3 reads, Bowser, DK, Ike, Dedede etc will as well. Many characters with big strings, like Ness or Mario for example, will also come very close if not get the kill, especially if they've been racking up damage through neutral.



Assuming you're close enough for them to hit, which is the real battle with Ganon. Also, don't forget that the opponents can make a read on you as well. If they read your USmash with Spot Dodge, you're not only getting punished but you're going to have to work your way in again.

In general, it's not really a viable gameplan to assume you will make more correct reads than your opponent. It's nice if it happens, but unless you have a big skill advantage you probably can't count on it.

Fair points. I will say, though, that, unlike many other heavies, The 'dorf can force situations where he can get his reads off, such as D-Throw or Side-B. I'd like to use USF4 Dudley as an example: If he's not in, he's a ****ty character with ****ty options. Once he is in, though, he's going to kill you unless you win a game of rock-paper-scissors. It may be optimism talking, but I think, in time, Ganon mains will learn to keep playing Rock-Paper-Scissors when both players pick Rock instead of the game going neutral again.

It's why I reference the 3 reads as being an advantage. It's all he'll ever need. That, and I think he uses stage advantage more then the other heavies. Again, maybe it's just optimism (and honestly, bias), but I think he'll be good enough to be high mid pre-customs in a year or so. It is undeniable, though, that he loses to tops right now. I don't think he loses to the rest of the cast bad enough to really discount him and say "I don't have to respect this character's options."

Not quite true. The top tiers have hitboxes and projectiles that encourage their opponent to make risky moves to get in. Take Ganon vs. Sheik for instance. Sheik can needle camp and space safe f-airs at a distance that Ganon can't easily punish. In order to get in on that, Ganon must make a read. Sheik doesn't have to make reads, though; Sheik just baits and punishes Ganon's read attempts instead, because he's the one forced to make reads. Sure, Sheik can make reads too, if she really wants to, but she has the option to not do that. Ganon doesn't.

You don't need to make reads to build up damage on Ganon. You just need to play safe. Getting the KO is another matter, though.

Fair point as well. I've got nothing for it besides what I said in the above message.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Not quite true. The top tiers have hitboxes and projectiles that encourage their opponent to make risky moves to get in. Take Ganon vs. Sheik for instance. Sheik can needle camp and space safe f-airs at a distance that Ganon can't easily punish. In order to get in on that, Ganon must make a read. Sheik doesn't have to make reads, though; Sheik just baits and punishes Ganon's read attempts instead, because he's the one forced to make reads. Sure, Sheik can make reads too, if she really wants to, but she has the option to not do that. Ganon doesn't.

You don't need to make reads to build up damage on Ganon. You just need to play safe. Getting the KO is another matter, though.

This is a solid point actually also very interesting 2 since it touches up on this game more as a whole. Think about it in this game there is 1 skill i noticed on both the offensive side and defensive. On the offenisve side its the abiliity to damage ur opponent. on the defensive its ur survivablity. now iv seen one 2 many matches in smash 4 where some one was very capable of racking up damage and had a very strong lead but once it got 2 kill percents it started going down hill for them simply because the opponent wasactivle avoiding kill moves and punishing them till they got near kill percents or died even earlyer because of rage. its very facinating how different the skills of racking up damage and sealing stocks can be.

@ Terotrous than tell me. is some one got hit while u were just throwing out moves withhout thinking. it would be the other players fault is it not? if shiek is sitting there camping with needles whats stoping ganon from simply planking? than getting up shield? hell u can even bait like this. if some one got hit while trying 2 approack its because they failed 2 respect that player options its a MISTAKE. and a read for the other player. If both players never made mistakes with no clear predictable pattern nobody would get hit.

projectile or none.

 

[Terotrous]

Fair points. I will say, though, that, unlike many other heavies, The 'dorf can force situations where he can get his reads off, such as D-Throw or Side-B. I'd like to use USF4 Dudley as an example: If he's not in, he's a ****ty character with ****ty options. Once he is in, though, he's going to kill you unless you win a game of rock-paper-scissors. It may be optimism talking, but I think, in time, Ganon mains will learn to keep playing Rock-Paper-Scissors when both players pick Rock instead of the game going neutral again.

Dudley has some burst movement options though. If Ganon had EX Machine Gun Blow he would be a totally different character. To say nothing of the fact that Dudley also has a counter, some moves that give invincibility on parts of his body, and an ultra that punishes projectiles from mid screen. He is not easily walled out or pestered with safe pokes. Ganon is really more akin to Zangief, who has historically had trouble winning majors for most of the same reasons.

Note that in PM, my suggestion for fixing Ganon was to allow him to jump cancel Wizard's Foot, effectively giving him that burst movement option (albeit still with high commitment). Wizard's Dropkick is actually kind of a burst movement option. With customs on, I think Ganon is a fair bit more viable. You certainly have to respect his neutral a bit more as he can punish some things that he normally would not be able to. It improves his recovery, too.

It's why I reference the 3 reads as being an advantage. It's all he'll ever need.

Unfortunately it may be more than he can actually get.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fair points. I will say, though, that, unlike many other heavies, The 'dorf can force situations where he can get his reads off, such as D-Throw or Side-B. I'd like to use USF4 Dudley as an example: If he's not in, he's a ****ty character with ****ty options. Once he is in, though, he's going to kill you unless you win a game of rock-paper-scissors. It may be optimism talking, but I think, in time, Ganon mains will learn to keep playing Rock-Paper-Scissors when both players pick Rock instead of the game going neutral again.

It's why I reference the 3 reads as being an advantage. It's all he'll ever need. That, and I think he uses stage advantage more then the other heavies. Again, maybe it's just optimism (and honestly, bias), but I think he'll be good enough to be high mid pre-customs in a year or so. It is undeniable, though, that he loses to tops right now. I don't think he loses to the rest of the cast bad enough to really discount him and say "I don't have to respect this character's options."



Fair point as well. I've got nothing for it besides what I said in the above message.

Dudley is a pretty poor example as a comparison. A good example would be Hakan. Imo. I'm almost certain people are hyping ganon up. Ultimately he'll end up in the bottom half of the roster imo.

 

[Opana]

Pikachu has farther reaching edge guard capabilities, but Ganon's are more effective. Even just throwing out dorf's nair can get the job done considering the very long lasting hit boxes. Uair can be fastfalled from walk off or wizkick cancel covering lots of area. Using wizkick allows you to reach out a huge distance and even throw out an uair before you recover, and if need you can do a rising uair from his second jump while still being able to recover. Bair is a fantastic stage spike and trump option. Dair is a great meteor and kill move with its sourspot. Fair is fantastic for early kos, and having it sh fast fallen is very quick. Just staying on the ledge guves dorf options, he can let go of the ledge and use any aerial while being able to recover, and this is especially useful with uair. Ledge hop allows you to cover high recoveries with his uair as well, or even ff dair past the ledge. Also often overlooked is his utilt, it can be a valuable tool for those who've commited to a low recovery and exhausted their options.

Honestly if distance was the deciding factor Villager would have this easy. The only worthwhile edge guards Pikw really has are Nair, Bair, Thunder, Neutral B, and maybe dair. Bair is a stage spike tool if anything, Nair is pretty good at gimping and stage spiking, Thunder is a good offstage tool for it's massive area it covers although Chu being suspended can back fire, and Neutral B is a good disruptor.

Feel free to enlighten me to the effectiveness of Pika's aerials but as of now I don't see anything too notable.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pikachu has farther reaching edge guard capabilities, but Ganon's are more effective. Even just throwing out dorf's nair can get the job done considering the very long lasting hit boxes. Uair can be fastfalled from walk off or wizkick cancel covering lots of area. Using wizkick allows you to reach out a huge distance and even throw out an uair before you recover, and if need you can do a rising uair from his second jump while still being able to recover. Bair is a fantastic stage spike and trump option. Dair is a great meteor and kill move with its sourspot. Fair is fantastic for early kos, and having it sh fast fallen is very quick. Just staying on the ledge guves dorf options, he can let go of the ledge and use any aerial while being able to recover, and this is especially useful with uair. Ledge hop allows you to cover high recoveries with his uair as well, or even ff dair past the ledge. Also often overlooked is his utilt, it can be a valuable tool for those who've commited to a low recovery and exhausted their options.

Honestly if distance was the deciding factor Villager would have this easy. The only worthwhile edge guards Pikw really has are Nair, Bair, Thunder, Neutral B, and maybe dair. Bair is a stage spike tool if anything, Nair is pretty good at gimping and stage spiking, Thunder is a good offstage tool for it's massive area it covers although Chu being suspended can back fire, and Neutral B is a good disruptor.

Feel free to enlighten me to the effectiveness of Pika's aerials but as of now I don't see anything too notable.

pika is just a desrtuctive gimper that make the pits look bad coming from a pit main.

 

[Pyr]

Dudley has some burst movement options though. If Ganon had EX Machine Gun Blow he would be a totally different character. To say nothing of the fact that Dudley also has a counter, some moves that give invincibility on parts of his body, and an ultra that punishes projectiles from mid screen. He is not easily walled out or pestered with safe pokes.

Note that in PM, my suggestion for fixing Ganon was to allow him to jump cancel Wizard's Foot, effectively giving him that burst movement option (albeit still with high commitment). Wizard's Dropkick is actually kind of a burst movement option. With customs on, I think Ganon is a fair bit more viable.



Unfortunately it may be more than he can actually get.

True. In the context of SF, though, those tools are specific to the game. I think Ganon can compare with certain things, like power-shielding certain projectiles on approach, the threat of side-B, and his few safe options. Even though he must be the one to approach if he's even or behind, his safer options do have a mildly decent range and decent priority overall. And customs can help in his approach as well. Down-B helps in certain situations as well because of how to acts with the ledge.

Overall, though, I'd agree: Ganon is a worse Dudley because of what you said: Dudley has options far away that Ganon would dream about for equivalents in Smash.

 

[Opana]

Well that is my view coming from a dorf nain who frequently plays a pika. I most get gimped by bair stage spikes and Thindrr off stage, although I have scored a ganoncide due to the suspended state and otherwise just dodge through it. If he uses it when I cannot dodge or sd then that is definitely an iddue lol, he's good at that too but that's mainly because of my character's recovery.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

True. In the context of SF, though, those tools are specific to the game. I think Ganon can compare with certain things, like power-shielding certain projectiles on approach, the threat of side-B, and his few safe options. Even though he must be the one to approach if he's even or behind, his safer options do have a mildly decent range and decent priority overall. And customs can help in his approach as well. Down-B helps in certain situations as well because of how to acts with the ledge.

Overall, though, I'd agree: Ganon is a worse Dudley because of what you said: Dudley has options far away that Ganon would dream about for equivalents in Smash.

i always thought of ganon like zangief where hes on the defensive....ALOT! and things will always start looking really bad as ur damage starts 2 stack up. u may just lose hope. but once u get in, oh Baby once u get in! heh ur opponent may not come out. >

 

[Terotrous]

i always thought of ganon like zangief where hes on the defensive....ALOT! and things will always start looking really bad as ur damage starts 2 stack up. u may just lose hope. but once u get in, oh Baby once u get in! heh ur opponent may not come out. >

I think it's a good comparison, the problem is that Zangief-like characters tend to have a number of really terrible matchups that hold them back from being high tier. For Gief to win a major you either need a secondary or just hope you don't run into certain opponents, which is why it rarely happens.

It also doesn't help that mobility is arguably even more important in Smash than it is in games like Street Fighter and King of Fighters, since mobility directly translates into your ability to attack safely and do combos. Smash also has more defensive options than many fighters so vortex is not as strong.

 

[Smog Frog]

customs ganon is a force. OOS option that kills at 70? a command grab that kills? wdk for better recovery? customs ganon is easily upper half of the cast, most likely high mid tier.

 

[Psyant]

@ Opana : Only notable thing you didn't mention was Pika's fsmash which is good against stuff like Fox's side B. But yeah Pikachu is mainly nair (run off nair > double jump nair followup kills most chars), bair stagespike and thunder/jolt. His other aerials are pretty situational.

One other good thing Pikachu has going for him which I expect to see more of in the future is that Quick Attack is pretty much the best tool for getting ledge-trumps ever because of it's range, flexibility to grab the ledge from anywhere, and how fast it travels. If Pikachu misses an edgeguard and the other character slips past him to the ledge he can just quick attack to it right as they grab it to trump them and then he gets another shot at gimping them. I've been trying to implement it into my offstage game more and it really catches people off guard as they tend to let their guard down a bit when they get to the ledge before you.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think it's a good comparison, the problem is that Zangief-like characters tend to have a number of really terrible matchups that hold them back from being high tier. For Gief to win a major you either need a secondary or just hope you don't run into certain opponents, which is why it rarely happens.

It also doesn't help that mobility is arguably even more important in Smash than it is in games like Street Fighter and King of Fighters, since mobility directly translates into your ability to attack safely and do combos. Smash also has more defensive options than many fighters so vortex is not as strong.

combos? im sure ganon has a few of those but safty? ganon does not have much of that >.> he live life on the edge like the king of darkness should Xd.

 

[Nobie]

I can't remember who it is that argued that Pac-Man can fight Diddy but Abadango is currently on stream fighting Keitaro. It's arguably the best Pac-Man vs. not the best Diddy, but I've noticed just how seamless Abadango's fruit transitions are, and how he uses hydrant to prevent the up air.

http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash

 

[HeavyLobster]

customs ganon is a force. OOS option that kills at 70? a command grab that kills? wdk for better recovery? customs ganon is easily upper half of the cast, most likely high mid tier.

I'd probably say customs Ganon is just mid-tier. Dropkick definitely opens up things for him in many respects, but it also means giving up Ganon's best anti-juggle tool. Dark Fists is definitely an upgrade over Dark Dive, but it can be unreliable at times. Ganon definitely appreciates the gains he receives from customs, but he still has to deal with the fact that he's still entirely read-based. Dropkick does help him get in on campier characters though, which is really valuable.

 

[Balgorxz]

I can't remember who it is that argued that Pac-Man can fight Diddy but Abadango is currently on stream fighting Keitaro. It's arguably the best Pac-Man vs. not the best Diddy, but I've noticed just how seamless Abadango's fruit transitions are, and how he uses hydrant to prevent the up air.

http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash

PAC with some lab can counter diddy in the future because of the hydrant preventing hoohaas and the banana gives pacman 2 projectiles instead of 1