Character Competitive Impressions

[RWB]

This might not be the thread for it, but is there any place where I can see collected tournament results(as to see how well characters are doing).

 

[Trifroze]

And speaking of wrecking Luma:

 

[Jaguar360]

DK's aerial speed is the reason he's much more mobile than Bowser or Charizard. Running speed means very little unless you have good options out of a dash, hence aerial speed is usually more important for mobility. I could buy DK being classified as a heavy though considering his weight and how big his frame is despite that.

I agree, though Charizard does have good dash options in hyphen u-smash and his fairly long dash grab. His dash attack is also okay, but unsafe. He has the options to make his high dash speed matter.

I can't say anything about Bowser, however.

 

[mimgrim]

I agree, though Charizard does have good dash options in hyphen u-smash and his fairly long dash grab. His dash attack is also okay, but unsafe. He has the options to make his high dash speed matter.

I can't say anything about Bowser, however.

Should be noted that Zard and Bowser have really short skid animations meaning they can use other moves out of a run much faster then a good portion of the cast.

 

[warionumbah2]

And speaking of wrecking Luma:

can anyone top this?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Slowest runner and one of the slowest walkers you mean?

If I can remember correctly from the tips, it said Robin is the slowest WALKER while, for the runner I believe it's #1Jiggs, #2Ganon, #3Robin.

 

[bc1910]

I don't know how much 1.0.3 3DS Greninja would have helped with that, aside from being able to Shadow Sneak Cancel things. He has better recovery on a couple of moves, but the gNeneral sense of movement with Greninja didn't change.

I agree with you. Greninja was grossly overnerfed but the most important one by far was the shuriken nerf. Shurikens were much more effective at poking, pressuring, setting up offence, outcamping certain characters when necessary and basically patching up Greninja's sub-par neutral. They didn't receive much more endlag (7 frames) but it was enough to make him significantly less threatening.

In terms of competitive viability, Greninja's main drawback is having a sub-par neutral. Most of his attacks have precise hitboxes with high start-up lag or ending lag, and his standing grab has horrible startup though thankfully his dash grab doesn't. Shurikens are still helpful and probably his most important tool in neutral combined with his mobility, but they're not as effective as they once were at creating holes in the opponent's defence. His out of shield game is also somewhat poor, although shield drop is so fast in this game that shield drop to jab is a pretty good option in most cases. Also there are a lot of moves that cause high pushback on shield that most characters can't punish, but Greninja can because his dash grab is so good.

Greninja's strengths include amazing mobility (probably the best overall mobility in the game, his high jumps and fast fall are incredible), hard punishes which make him strong in advantage, strong and versatile edgeguarding tools and one of the best projectiles in the game. Shurikens are still great despite the nerf, especially once you start to explore the frame trapping possibilities offered by charged shuriken versus someone who's used their double jump. Oh, and his up throw is a kill throw at pretty reasonable percents (about 160% with no rage) which I think people overlook, it's something like the 3rd strongest up throw in the game. Almost all the top characters in this game have kill setups from a grab and Greninja is no exception here.

I think Greninja is a tricky character to use and I don't see him dominating any time soon because his neutral just isn't good enough. However, he has a lot of the right tools in a lot of the right places. If Greninja players can find a some effective strategies to help him out in neutral (namely abusing his main advantage over almost everyone - mobility) I think he could develop into a serious threat.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@etecoon @Asdioh @ Conda

Ganondorf has been placing top 8 in a good number of scenes globally. Personally I feel the mechanics of Smash 4 make him a much better character than he was in Brawl. The ledge trump makes it easier to recover, the aerial dodge landing lag gives him more opportunities to make good reads for something big, and due to him being heavy he naturally lives longer and can take advantage of rage more than most characters.

Plus shields are much easier to break in this game than Melee or Brawl. I feel like people underrate this aspect for some characters like Ganondorf, DK, Villager, Megaman, Jigglypuff, Bowser, and Dedede. These guys have options where they can hard punish impulse shielding and are great at shield pressure.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The quick shield breaking is actually one of my favorite additions to this game over Brawl. With no L canceling and the strength of shields in this game it was a really smart move. Maybe not quite balanced out. Shields are still really strong but still.

 

[Nobie]

I agree with you. Greninja was grossly overnerfed but the most important one by far was the shuriken nerf. Shurikens were much more effective at poking, pressuring, setting up offence, outcamping certain characters when necessary and basically patching up Greninja's sub-par neutral. They didn't receive much more endlag (7 frames) but it was enough to make him significantly less threatening.

In terms of competitive viability, Greninja's main drawback is having a sub-par neutral. Most of his attacks have precise hitboxes with high start-up lag or ending lag, and his standing grab has horrible startup though thankfully his dash grab doesn't. Shurikens are still helpful and probably his most important tool in neutral combined with his mobility, but they're not as effective as they once were at creating holes in the opponent's defence. His out of shield game is also somewhat poor, although shield drop is so fast in this game that shield drop to jab is a pretty good option in most cases. Also there are a lot of moves that cause high pushback on shield that most characters can't punish, but Greninja can because his dash grab is so good.

Greninja's strengths include amazing mobility (probably the best overall mobility in the game, his high jumps and fast fall are incredible), hard punishes which make him strong in advantage, strong and versatile edgeguarding tools and one of the best projectiles in the game. Shurikens are still great despite the nerf, especially once you start to explore the frame trapping possibilities offered by charged shuriken versus someone who's used their double jump. Oh, and his up throw is a kill throw at pretty reasonable percents (about 160% with no rage) which I think people overlook, it's something like the 3rd strongest up throw in the game. Almost all the top characters in this game have kill setups from a grab and Greninja is no exception here.

I think Greninja is a tricky character to use and I don't see him dominating any time soon because his neutral just isn't good enough. However, he has a lot of the right tools in a lot of the right places. If Greninja players can find a some effective strategies to help him out in neutral (namely abusing his main advantage over almost everyone - mobility) I think he could develop into a serious threat.

I recently watched that video comparing all of the characters' rolls, and was surprised to learn that Greninja's roll duration and end lag are among the worst in the game, sort of like a mini-version of Samus. It completely changed the way I approach him in neutral, because whereas I used to get spooked by the sheer distance it covered, I'm now aware of how easy it is to escape even if he does the roll to try and punish your attack.

 

[Radical Larry]

Plus shields are much easier to break in this game than Melee or Brawl. I feel like people underrate this aspect for some characters like Ganondorf, DK, Villager, Megaman, Jigglypuff, Bowser, and Dedede. These guys have options where they can hard punish impulse shielding and are great at shield pressure.

Don't forget, Ganondorf has the top aerial punishers in the game, Flame Choke and Wizard's Foot. They are also two of the best combo breakers and early KO attacks in the game (Zero to death with off-stage Flame Choke, and 78% minimum with non-meteor Wizard's Foot). The former is a guaranteed win on last stock.

He is at least high tier.

 

[Nu~]

Don't forget, Ganondorf has the top aerial punishers in the game, Flame Choke and Wizard's Foot. They are also two of the best combo breakers and early KO attacks in the game (Zero to death with off-stage Flame Choke, and 78% minimum with non-meteor Wizard's Foot). The former is a guaranteed win on last stock.

He is at least high tier.

0_o at least high tier? Sheer power alone can't make up for all of his downsides. The top of Mid tier at best

 

[KevJames]

It shocks me how some people can just come to the conclusion that Ganondorf is top tier due to his ability to kill off a few reads. People can easily say that Diddy's recovery weakness can be exploitable and people just need to learn to adapt. But when Ganon's or any other mid/low tier's name is thrown out, we tend to look strictly at the advantages that character has, and suddenly "adapting" is no longer a word used so commonly in associating with that character.

To my disappointment, Ganon will never be high tier. Why? Because we can simply adapt to his playstyle and play the safest neutral game the same way we adapt to all other top tiers. The difference? He just doesn't have the tools to simply alter his playstyle during unfavorable circumstances compared to the currently perceived top tiers.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Rosalina almost certainly loses to Falcon and Fox.

I seriously doubt this. If anything I feel like Rosa has a significant advantage against both of them. Falco does a bit better against her because the stun on his neutral B and his reflector are both useful against Rosa, whereas Fox's lasers get walled by Luma and his reflector is completely useless.

In particular, I've played a lot of good Fox's and in my experience it's one of the easier match ups. His Side-B to the ledge gets gimped by Rosa's D-tilt, and Rosa can easily follow up with a gimp on the Up+B. Beyond that, Fox doesn't have great spacing tools against Rosa, which allows Rosa to flourish.

For what it's worth, I've played several very good online Fox players, including winning the 1 set I played against Larry Lurr. And I'm someone who didn't even know what a "tech" or "DI" was until 3 months ago.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What I suspect a lot of people mean when they say "X is high tier" is actually more along the lines of "X will wreck you if you don't respect them" which is a lot more reasonable. But if you can say the exact same thing about basically the entire cast, then it becomes meaningless.

I think it would be more productive to consider if a character is a threat even when you respect all of their options.

@ Iron Kraken I think he means Captain Falcon, not Falco.

 

[Kofu]

And speaking of wrecking Luma:

If anything this just shows how stupid the range on Falcon's rapid jab end is. Like... look at where his hand ends up. That is NOWHERE near Luma.

 

[thehard]

Kirby can probably do that too right?

 

[Iron Kraken]

@ Iron Kraken I think he means Captain Falcon, not Falco.

LMAO yup, I totally made that mistake.

I also feel like Rosa can handle Falcon, and again I've played several top level Falcon players. Although I've heard some Rosa players say otherwise, I never have much trouble with Falcon (relatively speaking). Some of the Falcons I've played include Max Ketchum and DKwill, for reference.

Who do I think gives Rosa a hard time? Mainly Diddy Kong, above all. Beyond that... Yoshi, and maybe Pikachu (juries still out on that one because I haven't actually played a Pikachu that can best my Rosa, but I see the potential). A really good Lucario player, while extremely rare, can also be quite a pain. I guess Sheik too but I don't find the Sheik match up nearly as troublesome as Diddy.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Kirby can probably do that too right?

Kirby can dthrow Rosalina and immediately fsmash or jab > fsmash Luma without much risk. At super low % Rosalina might be able to make Luma nair in time to hit Kirby out of it but anything above 50% is probably safe. Inhaling Rosalina and spitting her out at Luma also works wonders -- it can't attack while Rosalina is being eaten and the star shot sends it halfway across Smashville.

 

[mimgrim]

Ganondorf is a noobslayer character (all of the fatties are though, in all honesty) because he only requires a couple of reads. If a player doesn't understand how to play the MU, is new to the game, doesn't have a firm understanding of how to play the game at a more competent level, or is just plain bad like me then they are in for a world of hurt against an even semi-competent Ganon. You could argue this is true for any character but it is more prevalent on a character like Ganon. This is why more inexperienced players tend to rate characters like Ganon higher then usual.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Ganondorf is a noobslayer character (all of the fatties are though, in all honesty) because he only requires a couple of reads. If a player doesn't understand how to play the MU, is new to the game, doesn't have a firm understanding of how to play the game at a more competent level, or is just plain bad like me then they are in for a world of hurt against an even semi-competent Ganon. You could argue this is true for any character but it is more prevalent on a character like Ganon. This is why more inexperienced players tend to rate characters like Ganon higher then usual.

This fits with my experience. The first 2 weeks I had the 3DS version I thought Ganondorf was the hardest match up on For Glory for me. Then I played for another 2 weeks and he became one of the easiest match ups for me.

I also think this is somewhat intentional. Imagine if Ganondorf was even more powerful than he is right now. To the vast majority of people who play Smash (people we would call inexperienced), Ganondorf would be absurdly good. He would wreck every casual game out there. This is something I'm sure Sakurai takes into account when character building.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf is a noobslayer character (all of the fatties are though, in all honesty) because he only requires a couple of reads. If a player doesn't understand how to play the MU, is new to the game, doesn't have a firm understanding of how to play the game at a more competent level, or is just plain bad like me then they are in for a world of hurt against an even semi-competent Ganon. You could argue this is true for any character but it is more prevalent on a character like Ganon. This is why more inexperienced players tend to rate characters like Ganon higher then usual.

Really? I thought most people held the popular belief that Ganondorf is low tier.

Also, if anything, he's one of the much less commonly played characters overall, and there's not many people among Ganon players that are especially skilled.

 

[meleebrawler]

This fits with my experience. The first 2 weeks I had the 3DS version I thought Ganondorf was the hardest match up on For Glory for me. Then I played for another 2 weeks and he became one of the easiest match ups for me.

I also think this is somewhat intentional. Imagine if Ganondorf was even more powerful than he is right now. To the vast majority of people who play Smash (people we would call inexperienced), Ganondorf would be absurdly good. He would wreck every casual game out there. This is something I'm sure Sakurai takes into account when character building.

Wasn't this somewhat true for Ike in Brawl?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Really? I thought most people held the popular belief that Ganondorf is low tier.

Also, if anything, he's one of the much less commonly played characters overall, and there's not many people among Ganon players that are especially skilled.

I am sure this is true. There was only 1 Ganondorf player I've played that has given me trouble, he went by the tag F5K. Looked him up and he's someone who seems to have played a lot of Brawl and Project M. He played extremely patiently and really understood how to space Ganondorf's attacks, so approaching him wasn't an easy task.

There's no doubt that the top tier characters end up seeming even better than they are because the best players flock to them, and the lesser characters end up seeming worse than they actually are because few good players use them.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Anything on Toon Link? Haven't seen anything on him...

 

[Trifroze]

If anything this just shows how stupid the range on Falcon's rapid jab end is. Like... look at where his hand ends up. That is NOWHERE near Luma.

Snake's utilt? Pfft

Spoiler

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anything on Toon Link? Haven't seen anything on him...

Toon Link is like the most uninteresting character ever...though he does have a pretty polarizing matchup against someone like Bowser. And obviously item tossing is perpetually underrated.

Both Link and TL are okay characters that are hindered by very specific weaknesses. TL mostly lacks really consistent KO confirms (especially since his low edgeguard options are somewhat limited). Link suffers from having the worst throws in the game overall.

 

[Ticker]

Toon Link is like the most uninteresting character ever...though he does have a pretty polarizing matchup against someone like Bowser. And obviously item tossing is perpetually underrated.

Both Link and TL are okay characters that are hindered by very specific weaknesses. TL mostly lacks really consistent KO confirms (especially since his low edgeguard options are somewhat limited). Link suffers from having the worst throws in the game overall.

Really? I feel TL has some rather reliable KO setups with bombs. Additionally, he can control the stage fairly easily so he can continue to just rack up damage until he either creates or is given an opportunity to go in for the kill.

 

[Conda]

Link's up throw kills, so I wouldn't be so quick to call his throws the 'worst'.

TL suffers from low sword range, giving him basically the same range as MetaKnight but nowhere near the attack speed. He lacks the versatile CQC options Link has (nair sexkick, bair doublekick) which are the two moves that help patch up Link's blind spots and holes. Toon Link hates being juggled more than he has any right to, with how bad dair is now.

Toon Link's projectiles are good against newer players but powershields defend against anything he can do against good opponents. He tosses out projectiles too slowly, and his projectiles themselves are also too slow. Link has more versatility in this area, as he can trap landings with arrows which TL cannot do as his are super slow. They aren't even rewarding on hit, unlike Link's.

Toon Link's bomb -> aerial kill setups are good, but again - powershield. The only thing that saves this is that his aerials - all of them - are good at getting kills. The issue is his mobility and range, making landing an aerial a tough ordeal.

I haven't seen too much success using TL the way he was used in Brawl, but also not a lot of success using him in new ways. When I try to use him in the way he seems designed to be used, Link seems better at it. The playstyle I'm referring to is 'forcing approaches, and then doing SH aerials or jabs' - this works better as Link than TL.

TL still has stuff going for him, but his recovery sucks at autosnapping, tether is short just because he's smaller (balance not considered), and range is super tiny. His dair nerf wasn't warranted, and I'm looking for ways to make him work without making his playstyle 2-dimensional and easily counterable.

 

[san.]

Mii Gunner objectively has the worst throws, but on the flipside the grab is good and it accomplishes its goal by popping them away to set up again.

 

[mimgrim]

Mii Gunner objectively has the worst throws, but on the flipside the grab is good and it accomplishes its goal by popping them away to set up again.

Eh. They give Gunner good positional advantage which actually make them pretty good. You might not get free follow-ups from them but the positional advantage is also important. They work for what his gameplan is.

 

[FullMoon]

I recently watched that video comparing all of the characters' rolls, and was surprised to learn that Greninja's roll duration and end lag are among the worst in the game, sort of like a mini-version of Samus. It completely changed the way I approach him in neutral, because whereas I used to get spooked by the sheer distance it covered, I'm now aware of how easy it is to escape even if he does the roll to try and punish your attack.

Huh. I could've sworn I've read somewhere that Greninja had one of the best rolls.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Toon Link is like the most uninteresting character ever...though he does have a pretty polarizing matchup against someone like Bowser. And obviously item tossing is perpetually underrated.

Both Link and TL are okay characters that are hindered by very specific weaknesses. TL mostly lacks really consistent KO confirms (especially since his low edgeguard options are somewhat limited). Link suffers from having the worst throws in the game overall.

I would have to disagree with that. His throw can actually be pretty useful. I personally think Link is mid tier because he has an insane weakness to diagonal aerial approaches. He literally has no answer to that common as hell approaching method except shield grab, which of course is extremely punishable. Like Ganon and ike, I feel like link is a pub stomper. Once you breach a certain high level of play link has trouble keeping up. I got seriously buffed this time around, but he was 2nd worst in the game in brawl so how much does that really mean? He does seem to have a high skill cap though so I could be wrong. I could see him getting in top 20 with the right reprensentation, but then again, with the right rep who can't in this game? Who knows man, who knows...

 

[NairWizard]

and maybe Pikachu (juries still out on that one because I haven't actually played a Pikachu that can best my Rosa

the cosmos conducts electricity

edit: This isn't a callout, I'm just kidding. I like the Rosalina vs. Pikachu matchup for Pikachu a lot though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mii Gunner objectively has the worst throws, but on the flipside the grab is good and it accomplishes its goal by popping them away to set up again.

see, that is why Link's throws are awful. They are too laggy to combo, and they don't send people very far or kill really early. Link wants his opponents close to him or really far away. But his throws are just chip damage mostly.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

see, that is why Link's throws are awful. They are too laggy to combo, and they don't send people very far or kill really early. Link wants his opponents close to him or really far away. But his throws are just chip damage mostly.

See, no. Link's down throw combos at low percents and his back and front throw get his a opponent where he wants them to be at higher percents. Gotta completely disagree with you when you say he wants his opponents really far away. He wants them mid- close mid range. All of his projectiles bar fully charged arrow (which you shouldn't be using anyways on stage) are mid ranged and Link has tippers now so his throws usually get the opponent at that nice distance. I agree that his throws aren't very good but they to give him advantageous positioning.

 

[HeavyLobster]

He is at least high tier.

WHAAAT!?
This is the first time I have ever seen anyone say Ganondorf is high tier in Smash 4. His mobility specs, size, and lack of a projectile by themselves mean he's going to have issues in a number of matchups where people spam and run away. His moves are generally pretty laggy, meaning if they get used carelessly Ganon is open to get punished. He has so many issues that can be exploited by so many characters. It is true that his power is ridiculous once he gets in, and that this alone gives him a fighting chance against almost anyone, but high tiers are supposed to actually have an advantage over much of the cast, not just enough to hang around and be threatening. I have heard reasonable arguments from good players for him being low tier and for him being mid tier, and I tend to view him as low-mid, but his flaws are simply too glaring for anyone to seriously argue for him as a high tier, since he's going to be getting knocked around most of the time against most of the cast, and even his herculean strength isn't always enough to make up for this. Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but that statement is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Ffamran]

This might not be the thread for it, but is there any place where I can see collected tournament results(as to see how well characters are doing).

Although late, but thank @Lavani for this: http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-wii-u.8/league/teams.

You can use the side bar to check how many times a character won a certain place like Captain Falcon placed 1st seven times while Mr. Game & Watch, Falco, Samus, Mii Gunner and Swordfighter never placed 1st as of now.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Snake's utilt? Pfft

Spoiler

Dear lord, that jab finisher reaches as far as Melee Marth's forward smash tippered.
We are too mortal to understand Captain Falcon's power, he is our Lord and Saviour

 

[Emblem Lord]

Could have sworn I had Radical Larrys crazy ass on ignore.