Character Competitive Impressions

[Asdioh]

All righty since it seems everyone is calling me out on my Diddy/Wesker analogy let's see if I can go into a little detail.
Ok so I might not be the most absolutely aware of Wesker in MVC3 but I know these things happened to in the beginning of the game's life cycle

• Wesker was the character with the highest skill/power ratio in Marvel 3 and one of the dominated the meta
  
• Wesker's lack of flight or other multi-directional air mobility was not as important when he can KO everyone in a mix-up
• As the meta developed, in about a year, TAC infinities caused everyone to be able to touch of death on a more consistent mix-up meaning Wesker's game dominating shenanigans are essintially not as special on top of his inability to have multi directional air mobility
• Wesker fell of the top of the charts

What I am saying is that it is entirely possible for Diddy to go through what MVC3 Wesker went through. If i went back in time and said that Wesker was going to be an "ok" character, I would get laughed at because he had a strong neutral (at the time) on top of the rewards he would get from touching you AND his relative ease to play. Heck even after TACs were a thing people didn't just switch off Wesker until after a time.

Right now Diddy is a lot like early MVC3 Wesker. Both have massive rewards, great speeds, and a strong neutral (again for Wesker it was back then). I don't think that it is completely impossible for some new game changing tech to happen and for Diddy to be obselete.

Just to remind everyone I do beleive Diddy is strong but we have to remember that anything is possible.

What little I know of UMvC3 is what I hear, and basically I hear that people consider it a joke of a competitive game at this point because it's just death combos. Now that I know what TAC means (Team Aerial Combo!), it sounds like the fact that they're infinites is kinda broken. In that case, it doesn't sound like a good comparison for Diddy at all. If we were to somehow find that almost every character except Diddy has guaranteed 0-deaths/infinites, then yeah he'll definitely fall. But since this game is pretty vanilla, and fairly balanced, I don't see those types of things popping up. Unless he is nerfed, Diddy's moveset will always be good. He'll always have fast startup on multiple aerials that do good damage, have great hitboxes, great autocancel frames, etc. His Dtilt will always be one of the best, his threat of grabs and rewards from grabs will always be great, etc.

The only place Diddy struggles is diagonally beneath, or straight beneath, the stage. Since most moves with significant knockback send you horizontal, or upward, especially after DI, it's very difficult to get Diddy in that bad spot and then gimp his weak UpB.

tl;dr he's a good character


Also etecoon brings up a good point, Ganondorf in Brawl was such a joke that I could fool around while playing against decent Ganondorf players and still win, but he still kind of had the "few good reads and you're dead" playstyle. I don't understand what exactly changed in this game to bring him from joke tier to really threatening tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf getting a few reads and killing you for it is nothing new, nor is having a few CQC attacks that aren't so slow, all I'm really seeing for significant improvement is that his up B isn't a free hit anymore, and he gets scary set ups off ledge trumps. Other than that, he's still one of the most immobile in a game that highly rewards mobility, and still has poor options against ledge and landing traps which leads to the "few reads and you're dead" thing being a two way street except your opponent has better fundamental options so they don't have to go for hard reads constantly to win. It's hard to rock paper scissors people when they don't have to show their hand at the same time as you

The biggest buffs for Ganon are the following:

*Not getting edgehogged while still being a heavy character
*His reward in this game is actually a lot greater than it was in Brawl, compared to the rest of the cast, so hard reads are less of a joke, and more of a legitimate threat that can't be ignored competitively
*All aerial attacks have less landing lag, especially N-air and F-air
*Dash Attack in this game sends people forwards and upwards, instead of behind Ganondorf. As DA is one of Ganondorf's most important attacks for closing distance, the momentum Ganondorf gets from this move is a big deal.

Also ledge traps in this game are pretty universally weak, and being a heavy character is actually a very significant advantage against ledge traps because it takes that much longer to kill you with throws, which are one of the more reliable tools for punishing ledge stand in this game.

I really don't think mobility is actually a big problem for Ganondorf right now. Sure, buffing his run/air speed would increase his viability universally, though he already covers a lot of options well with DA, Flame Choke, and Wizkick. Ganondorf's biggest weakness is he does poorly against very fast SH aerial pressure combined with solid projectile camping because he has a poor shieldgrab and a nearly useless Jab, so he does have some matchups that are by design very hard for him.

Both Ray_Kalm and I believe Ganondorf is a mid tier character in this game who has both good and bad matchups. He does have some good tournament results across the world, so he's not a joke competitively.

 

[Conda]

Could we please hold off on the comparisons to other fighting game characters? Many readers aren't going to be following you at all, and it becomes mostly a private conversation to the few involved.

The biggest buffs for Ganon are the following:

*Not getting edgehogged while still being a heavy character
*His reward in this game is actually a lot greater than it was in Brawl, compared to the rest of the cast, so hard reads are less of a joke, and more of a legitimate threat that can't be ignored competitively
*All aerial attacks have less landing lag, especially N-air and F-air
*Dash Attack in this game sends people forwards and upwards, instead of behind Ganondorf. As DA is one of Ganondorf's most important attacks for closing distance, the momentum Ganondorf gets from this move is a big deal.

Also ledge traps in this game are pretty universally weak, and being a heavy character is actually a very significant advantage against ledge traps because it takes that much longer to kill you with throws, which are one of the more reliable tools for punishing ledge stand in this game.

I really don't think mobility is actually a big problem for Ganondorf right now. Sure, buffing his run/air speed would increase his viability universally, though he already covers a lot of options well with DA, Flame Choke, and Wizkick. Ganondorf's biggest weakness is he does poorly against very fast SH aerial pressure combined with solid projectile camping because he has a poor shieldgrab and a nearly useless Jab, so he does have some matchups that are by design very hard for him.

Both Ray_Kalm and I believe Ganondorf is a mid tier character in this game who has both good and bad matchups. He does have some good tournament results across the world, so he's not a joke competitively.

Super agreed. Ganondorf's getting results, which is more than some of the characters we seem to consider high tier get to say. Our current perceptions of a character may be far off from what is actually happening, and what has the potential to happen. Ganondorf just 'works' in Smash 4, and we're going to have to realise that this means punish-focused playstyles with slower characters can actually be competitively viable.

This is one of the reasons I feel Robin is actually quite good - play him/her like a heavy and you suddenly are an actually very good character.

Robin looks like a swordsman, feels like a swordman, and fights like a swordsman. But Robin's actual kit is based around the design of a heavy, and he/she is meant to be played as one.

What does Yoshi, Bowser, Wario, DeDeDe, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Robin have in common? Command Grabs.

It's a trademark aspect of being one of the heavier classes in the game - you have grappler-esque tools that many other characters don't get to have, bar Kirby. Robin also has quick super-hard-hitting aerials, strong smash attacks, high % damage, a slow runspeed, quick fastfall speed, and not-too-amazing recovery. You may not have the benefits of being a heavyweight, but you work like one. And you'd got good projectiles and disjoints to make up for the lack of weight.

Playing Robin not as the swordfighter he/she feels like, but as a Heavy, makes the character 'click'.

Suddenly you realise Nosferatu isn't so much less safe than Robin's slow-endlag normal grab, and isn't much different from other Command Grabs. You also realise that you don't need to use projectiles the way you've been using them. Thoron isn't even that strong - it's no charged shot or key, and we all know it. You don't need to cast ArcFire every second, putting yourself in endlag that is easily punishable by your opponent and cause of many Robin losses.

 

[Venks]

@ E etecoon @ Asdioh @ Conda

Ganondorf has been placing top 8 in a good number of scenes globally. Personally I feel the mechanics of Smash 4 make him a much better character than he was in Brawl. The ledge trump makes it easier to recover, the aerial dodge landing lag gives him more opportunities to make good reads for something big, and due to him being heavy he naturally lives longer and can take advantage of rage more than most characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Could we please hold off on the comparisons to other fighting game characters? Many readers aren't going to be following you at all, and it becomes mostly a private conversation to the few involved.



Super agreed. Ganondorf's getting results, which is more than some of the characters we seem to consider high tier get to say. Our current perceptions of a character may be far off from what is actually happening, and what has the potential to happen. Ganondorf just 'works' in Smash 4, and we're going to have to realise that this means punish-focused playstyles with slower characters can actually be competitively viable.

This is one of the reasons I feel Robin is actually quite good - play him/her like a heavy and you suddenly are an actually very good character.

Robin looks like a swordsman, feels like a swordman, and fights like a swordsman. But Robin's actual kit is based around the design of a heavy, and he/she is meant to be played as one.

What does Yoshi, Bowser, Wario, DeDeDe, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Robin have in common? Command Grabs.

It's a trademark aspect of being one of the heavier classes in the game - you have grappler-esque tools that many other characters don't get to have, bar Kirby. Robin also has quick super-hard-hitting aerials, strong smash attacks, high % damage, a slow runspeed, quick fastfall speed, and not-too-amazing recovery. You may not have the benefits of being a heavyweight, but you work like one. And you'd got good projectiles and disjoints to make up for the lack of weight.

Playing Robin not as the swordfighter he/she feels like, but as a Heavy, makes the character 'click'.

Suddenly you realise Nosferatu isn't so much less safe than Robin's slow-endlag normal grab, and isn't much different from other Command Grabs. You also realise that you don't need to use projectiles the way you've been using them. Thoron isn't even that strong - it's no charged shot or key, and we all know it. You don't need to cast ArcFire every second, putting yourself in endlag that is easily punishable by your opponent and cause of many Robin losses.

I wouldn't really consider Robin a "heavy". I'd say the character is an aggressive zoning character, one that is deliberately hindered by mobility and a slower than average grab. Robin doesn't really play like a swordfighter or a heavy. I'd say Mega Man and Robin is a closer comparison. Both characters try to get you to make mistakes around the threat of projectile zoning and use that as a way to get close on their terms.

Though I find it somewhat misleading that you are trying to make a comparison with command grabs (you missed Lucario for that matter). Captain Falcon's Up-B, while it certainly can be used as a command grab, this is rarely how the move will actually be used (it's an okay out of shield option. But his regular grab almost always outclasses it in neutral except in platform situations).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Suddenly you realise Nosferatu isn't so much less safe than Robin's slow-endlag normal grab, and isn't much different from other Command Grabs. You also realise that you don't need to use projectiles the way you've been using them. Thoron isn't even that strong - it's no charged shot or key, and we all know it. You don't need to cast ArcFire every second, putting yourself in endlag that is easily punishable by your opponent and cause of many Robin losses.

Thoron+, on the other hand, is a legitimate threat. I got an amazing multikill with it in 8P Smash a while ago -- literally got everyone at once.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Could we please hold off on the comparisons to other fighting game characters? Many readers aren't going to be following you at all, and it becomes mostly a private conversation to the few involved.



Super agreed. Ganondorf's getting results, which is more than some of the characters we seem to consider high tier get to say. Our current perceptions of a character may be far off from what is actually happening, and what has the potential to happen. Ganondorf just 'works' in Smash 4, and we're going to have to realise that this means punish-focused playstyles with slower characters can actually be competitively viable.

This is one of the reasons I feel Robin is actually quite good - play him/her like a heavy and you suddenly are an actually very good character.

Robin looks like a swordsman, feels like a swordman, and fights like a swordsman. But Robin's actual kit is based around the design of a heavy, and he/she is meant to be played as one.

What does Yoshi, Bowser, Wario, DeDeDe, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Robin have in common? Command Grabs.

It's a trademark aspect of being one of the heavier classes in the game - you have grappler-esque tools that many other characters don't get to have, bar Kirby. Robin also has quick super-hard-hitting aerials, strong smash attacks, high % damage, a slow runspeed, quick fastfall speed, and not-too-amazing recovery. You may not have the benefits of being a heavyweight, but you work like one. And you'd got good projectiles and disjoints to make up for the lack of weight.

Playing Robin not as the swordfighter he/she feels like, but as a Heavy, makes the character 'click'.

Suddenly you realise Nosferatu isn't so much less safe than Robin's slow-endlag normal grab, and isn't much different from other Command Grabs. You also realise that you don't need to use projectiles the way you've been using them. Thoron isn't even that strong - it's no charged shot or key, and we all know it. You don't need to cast ArcFire every second, putting yourself in endlag that is easily punishable by your opponent and cause of many Robin losses.

Definitely agree that Robin feels like he can be played somewhat like a heavy. Although, even though i play other heavies, i will say that i find it a bit harder to land Robin's command grab given he can't use his momentum as advantageously to grab someone with it like with some of the other heavies IMO. TBH, nowadays i only use Thoron as a punish for some quick damage or as an edge guarding tool, which it works as pretty well if you're good at aiming it in the air. Given that it's multi hit, it can't be air dodged through and with its decent knockback, it can KO if you're already off stage.

Although, i will say, i think Elwind feels like a bit better of a recovery move compared to what other heavies have. Its great vertically and horizontally, and if i'm not mistaken, i think it ledge snaps. Its not as easy to aim your landing poorly as it is for say, Bowser and Dedede.

 

[meleebrawler]

Thoron+, on the other hand, is a legitimate threat. I got an amazing multikill with it in 8P Smash a while ago -- literally got everyone at once.

And Thoron+ gives you a throwable book on demand.
Only Nosferatu spam comes close, and it takes ages to come back compared to everything else.

The slower charge time IS an issue that makes it less than favourable against
speedy rushdown (like most of the top tiers), but Speed Thunder covers those, or
you can stick with default for setups.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganondorf just 'works' in Smash 4, and we're going to have to realise that this means punish-focused playstyles with slower characters can actually be competitively viable.

I think the biggest reason why this is is the fact that there aren't crazy combos like in 64/Melee or Brawl infinites, both of which wound up rendering the concept of heavies having better reward a sham.(except D3) The punishes in Smash 4 are generally tamer than those in previous Smash games, meaning it's sometimes ok to take risks and get punished if your reward is good enough. Safety is not as important as it was in previous Smash games because you don't get infinite chain-grabbed for messing up, though it is still very valuable, but characters based on going for 50/50s and getting good reward off of them can actually work, even if it isn't optimal compared to the top tiers who are generally pretty safe.

 

[Raziek]

Some really bizzare things being said in here.

Robin does not play like a heavy. Robin plays like Link with Marth's sword.

You're also heavily underrating Thoron. Regular Thoron does 19% and is a super consistent and strong punish that also wins all camp-fights and forces people to approach her.

Like, what does "Like a heavy" even mean, @ Conda ?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario, Yoshi and Captain Falcon hardly play like typical heavies as well. It's just their weight.

And then you have to take into account Charizard and DK not having any command grab. I'm really not understanding that point.

 

[Asdioh]

Speaking of Yoshi and command grabs... http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/b/616036162?t=2h30m45s
I was watching this match (Kirby with Upper Cutter and Grounding Stone vs default Yoshi). At the moment, I can't think of a harder matchup for Kirby. Kirby's difficulty against most characters is getting in because he has few good approach options, but it's exaggerated further against Yoshi, because he camps constantly with his good projectile and fantastic mobility, and the disgusting part is that he can superarmor jump away mid-combo, so your reward for finally getting in is minimal.
The interesting thing was that Kirby kept trying to punish Yoshi's landing, which is where Yoshi should be weak, but Egg Lay covered his landing every single time. I don't know what viable option Kirby could have done to overcome this. Maybe run up -> spotdodge can beat Egg Lay, and hopefully the move has enough endlag to punish?

Anyway it's not Kirby-specific, any projectile-less character that's forced to approach has to deal with this, and I think the command grab really pushes him over the top. Falcon, Sonic, Ganondorf, anyone that's forced to approach the highest-ish airspeed character in the game, through the wall of projectiles, has to then deal with an aerial grab and superarmor that can be used to escape combos. I'm glad at least that Yoshi doesn't have a crazy combo game, most of his aerials have pretty significant landing lag, but man that is frustrating character design.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Wario, Yoshi and Captain Falcon hardly play like typical heavies as well. It's just their weight.

And then you have to take into account Charizard and DK not having any command grab. I'm really not understanding that point.

C- Falcon plays rushdown (third fastest in the game behind Sanic and speed shulk), and Yoshi has a solid projectile the really helps his neutral out, along with crazy air and ground mobility. Not sure how either of those characters play like heavies...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Some really bizzare things being said in here.

Robin does not play like a heavy. Robin plays like Link with Marth's sword.

You're also heavily underrating Thoron. Regular Thoron does 19% and is a super consistent and strong punish that also wins all camp-fights and forces people to approach her.

Like, what does "Like a heavy" even mean, @ Conda ?

I would assume "heavy" means playstyle defined by the threat of strict punish moves. Ganondorf and Bowser are characters that are very much defined by their damage, and the situations in which their attacks can punish things. You literally will think twice about attacking these characters more because if you mess up or if they outspace you, they are guaranteed to trade favorably, even though a lot of their attacks are not technically safe.

Robin to me seems mostly defined FIRST by zoning, and everything else is secondary.

 

[Raziek]

I would assume "heavy" means playstyle defined by the threat of strict punish moves. Ganondorf and Bowser are characters that are very much defined by their damage, and the situations in which their attacks can punish things. You literally will think twice about attacking these characters more because if you mess up or if they outspace you, they are guaranteed to trade favorably, even though a lot of their attacks are not technically safe.

Robin to me seems mostly defined FIRST by zoning, and everything else is secondary.

I would agree with this general assessment, but I do not think 'like a heavy' has anything to do with a strong punish game. Heavies generally have strong punish games, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to be heavy to have one.

Cut out the weight bit and just talk about punish game and then it's fine.

 

[dragontamer]

Some really bizzare things being said in here.

Robin does not play like a heavy. Robin plays like Link with Marth's sword.

You're also heavily underrating Thoron. Regular Thoron does 19% and is a super consistent and strong punish that also wins all camp-fights and forces people to approach her.

If you said "him", I'd agree with you entirely. :-)

With that aside, Thoron is an amazing tool, although I tend to prefer ArcThunder due to the easy-mode aerial followups (more guaranteed damage and safer on block). It doesn't take too long to charge ArcThunder up to Thoron if I score a lucky hit and knock the opponent off-stage. I can get Thoron up and ready to "checkmate" the landing.

Plus, leaving the charge on ArcThunder allows you to do more B-Reversal shenanigans to mixup your aerial mobility. B-Reversed thunder-charging is Robin's quickest way to change his (ahem) momentum. Its definitely useful to B-Reversal your landings regularly. Robin's descent and anti-juggle potential leaves a bit to be desired.

I guess El-Fire B-Reversals are also an option, but they aren't as safe.

 

[Tagxy]

And that crippling weakness may be...what? I keep seeing this hypothetical scenario thrown around, and it's especially confusing paired with the prominence of "Sheik will become the best character when played perfectly" when Sheik has on paper weaknesses and Diddy doesn't + has greater strengths. Just thinking "Diddy probably has a crippling weakness that no one is exploiting right now!" is a weird kind of optimism, Sheik and Pikachu don't have their flaws perfectly exploited or anything either

Aside from recovery stuff, Diddy's ground game is pretty weak. If youre short enough or are able to duck under his aerials what does he have? Dtilt pseudo-combos but doesnt actually guarantee anything because of its long cooldown, and banana isnt really a threatening option outside a punish.

 

[the king of murder]

I find Greninja and ZSS are very punish based characters since their neutral isn't that good but once they punish you, it's going to hurt. Also, they can kill very early with the right reads, coupled with incredible mobility and find yourself two scary characters.

 

[Balgorxz]

Getting real tired of hearing Mario having 45-55 matchups against almost everyone
as if it's absolutely horrible and dooms him viably...

Even if that matchup spread was true, 45:55 IS STILL PRETTY DAMN CLOSE TO EVEN, so if it happens
with the majority he still has a very realistic chance of doing well in tournaments no matter who
he faces.

Now I feel as if you're just envious Mario isn't being centralized in the meta right now
like Diddy is and making people automatically give him favourable matchups against
"inferior" characters like most top tiers tend to do.

that 5% its usually implies effort but just watch ally rekt anyone with mario, if thats unviable then brb maining dr mario

 

[Ffamran]

Maybe diddy's bad horizontal aerial mobility will end up being a big flaw but who the heck knows.

That's more of Falco's problem than Diddy's. Falco and (Dark) Pit are ranked above Diddy who is at 41, but the thing is that Diddy, Luigi, and (Dark) Pit are mobile on the ground; Falco isn't exactly that mobile. Falco's walk speed is the 10th fastest - right above Diddy -, while (Dark) Pit is at 15/16 and Luigi is at 27-29 sharing spots with Rosalina and Mega Man. At running speed, Diddy is at 13, (Dark) Pit is at 20/21 and Luigi is at 30-33 sharing spots with Wario, Kirby, and Ike. Falco is at 35-37 sharing spots with Olimar and Ness.

So, the Pits make up being fairly average in mobilty by having a good off-stage game, fantastic recovery, and range and coverage. Diddy as we all know is mobile on the ground and hits hard despite seeming like a lightweight. Oh, and those stretchy limbs of his... Luigi combos fast and hard with moves that have good frame data. Falco ends up being a fast faller who isn't that mobile on the ground or in the air. His shorter range is made up by strong hits. Well, at least he has the best hops by default, so he has a good off-stage game.

See, this is the issue of less mobile characters: they have to compensate with something. Ganondorf has range and raw power, even Diddy's air mobility is made up by ground mobility and range, and in Brawl, Wolf's poor ground mobility was made up by air mobility, moving attacks, and range. Falco's poor overall mobility is made up by jumps and power which is more than Luigi's and less than Ganondorf leaving those times where he'll send people to the blast zone but not past it.

 

[HeoandReo]

So how about Brolylegs' Lucina?

Just seeing him play earlier, his Lucina is very good. Even though her aerial lag sucks, he uses them in a great way to avoid that endlag - either using them with a full hop, or attacking immediately after a short hop so that it ends before she falls. Lucina's range is still decent, so she's still very good at punishing rolls and ledge shenanigans from a somewhat safe distance, which is how he got most of his kills with her - getting an attack in right out of a read. If you want to beat Lucina, you don't roll. You run in.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but even considering his condition I still think he would have done better with Marth like was mentioned earlier. Even though he's using Lucina, he never comes super close to the opponent when he attacks. He just patiently moves around just out of their range but just inside Lucina's, and that's pretty much how I see his Lucina play. Very patient, and his spacing is fantastic. Lots of his kills come about by spacing well too, again striking with fsmash (because that's one of her two fast onstage kill options) just at the end of his reach. Doing that with Marth's tipper, he could end a lot of rounds earlier and not risk close games that come about by Lucina losing her advantage because that still happened pretty often.

Also watching some of the other matches, I feel the pain of Yoshi players for not having a strong competitive presence. I mean, I never liked the character, but suffice to say while I've seen good representation for everyone else, I have never seen a good Yoshi in Smash 4 tournaments.

Like every time I watch one play, I'm literally yelling at the screen like I'm watching Jeopardy and going "Come on! JAB! JAB YOU FOOL!"

 

[etecoon]

The biggest buffs for Ganon are the following:

*Not getting edgehogged while still being a heavy character
*His reward in this game is actually a lot greater than it was in Brawl, compared to the rest of the cast, so hard reads are less of a joke, and more of a legitimate threat that can't be ignored competitively
*All aerial attacks have less landing lag, especially N-air and F-air
*Dash Attack in this game sends people forwards and upwards, instead of behind Ganondorf. As DA is one of Ganondorf's most important attacks for closing distance, the momentum Ganondorf gets from this move is a big deal.

All good points. I'm still biased to thinking that such a slow character is very limited and this wasn't really improved, but he can do a ton of damage when he gets rolling and I didn't give that enough credit

Also ledge traps in this game are pretty universally weak, and being a heavy character is actually a very significant advantage against ledge traps because it takes that much longer to kill you with throws, which are one of the more reliable tools for punishing ledge stand in this game.

How so? I'm a noob at this game but it still seems to be an extremely advantageous position to me, especially with only one shot ledge invincibility, it isn't safe to just stall and try to catch someone sleeping now. Air dodge back on stage isn't a good option anymore(wasn't for Ganon before but speaking generally here), jumping is also just trading one bad situation for another that might actually be worse because of air dodge landing lag. It still seems to me to be a position where you have few options and a good read on those limited options can result in serious pain, the only thing is I haven't seen so many automatic brickwall traps like marth could SHFF spaced nair to dtilt all day in brawl and some characters literally had no options against this, not many characters have the combination of disjoint, range, and frame data to do something like that, but you can still cover options to some extent

Both Ray_Kalm and I believe Ganondorf is a mid tier character in this game who has both good and bad matchups. He does have some good tournament results across the world, so he's not a joke competitively.

What results, what high level players are losing to Ganondorf? Any good videos? I was going off my own observations and theory here but of course real world results can't be ignored

 

[A2ZOMG]

How so? I'm a noob at this game but it still seems to be an extremely advantageous position to me, especially with only one shot ledge invincibility, it isn't safe to just stall and try to catch someone sleeping now. Air dodge back on stage isn't a good option anymore(wasn't for Ganon before but speaking generally here), jumping is also just trading one bad situation for another that might actually be worse because of air dodge landing lag. It still seems to me to be a position where you have few options and a good read on those limited options can result in serious pain, the only thing is I haven't seen so many automatic brickwall traps like marth could SHFF spaced nair to dtilt all day in brawl and some characters literally had no options against this, not many characters have the combination of disjoint, range, and frame data to do something like that, but you can still cover options to some extent



What results, what high level players are losing to Ganondorf? Any good videos? I was going off my own observations and theory here but of course real world results can't be ignored

You have one frame of vulnerability when ledge standing. Basically, there are two safe ways to punish this. With a grab (spotdodging and rolling is invincible on frame 4 in this game), or with a lingering hitbox. The overwhelming majority of practical lingering hitboxes are not kill moves that do high damage. Also you no longer slide off the edge when shielding, which means spacing pokes by the ledge is much less safe in this game.

Edgeguarding is stronger in this game overall because of ledge mechanics making edgeguarding safer. However ledge traps in fact are much weaker in this game.

Also, players like @Hi-Hatz, @Ray_Kalm, Matt Hazard, and Gungnir if I recall correctly have all placed top 5 in tournaments against other high level players. Unfortunately, I don't have a comprehensive list of tournaments on me. I can tell you however that Gungnir specifically placed 2nd in a 106 man 3DS tournament in Japan, losing to Yoshidora. Matt Hazard was the guy who beat M2K with Ganondorf.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Also, players like @Hi-Hatz, @Ray_Kalm, Matt Hazard, and Gungnir if I recall correctly have all placed top 5 in tournaments against other high level players. Unfortunately, I don't have a comprehensive list of tournaments on me. I can tell you however that Gungnir specifically placed 2nd in a 106 man 3DS tournament in Japan, losing to Yoshidora. Matt Hazard was the guy who beat M2K with Ganondorf.

I believe Kalm got T-13 at TCU, which has probably been the biggest regional pre-Apex, and I think he also got T-17 at another big Canadian tourney if we're only going with the really big tourneys, but that's still pretty respectable for a character usually regarded as on the lower end of the tier list. There's also all the other players you mentioned doing well in locals. I'm not sure if people will be able to avoid Ganon's punishment as the meta develops, but right now his results are decent.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If youre short enough or are able to duck under his aerials what does he have? Dtilt pseudo-combos but doesnt actually guarantee anything because of its long cooldown,

Dtilt pseudo-combos but doesnt actually guarantee anything because of its long cooldown

Dtilt
long cooldown

Umm...
hrm

Small characters aside (Pikachu Olimar wft Jiggly kirby all ducking), pretty sure Dtilt gives him a free Fair 80-100% on most characters.

 

[Tagxy]

Umm...
hrm

Small characters aside (Pikachu Olimar wft Jiggly kirby all ducking), pretty sure Dtilt gives him a free Fair 80-100% on most characters.

The move comes out fast but has sizable cooldown. The cool down feels the same as brawl, which is 18 frames. Pikachus has less cooldown forsure (using brawl data its 10 frames) and pika only has guaranteed hits from trips. There might be some percents where combos are guaranteed with bad DI, but Im pretty sure you can shield, spot dodge, or toss out a move before diddy can hit you most of the time. But its one of those things thats hard to react to fast enough.

 

[Shaya]

So Pika's dtilt is 50% faster cool down than MK's dtilt in brawl? Cool.
Kinda unbelievable, but cool.

But yeah, no, 18 frames is a ludicrously low cool-down move by Smash standards.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Tagz is one of the last people you wanna argue with, Shaya. You should cease before it's too late.

 

[Shaya]

Dtilt
Hitbox Active: 7-9
FAF: 19

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ch-thread-qa-frame-data-added-1-26-11.244279/

 

[Tagxy]

Tagz is one of the last people you wanna argue with, Shaya. You should cease before it's too late.

The Brawl data is there so you can look it up yourself. Unfortunately since theres no information on cooldown for attacks yet, all I have to go off of is Brawl's data and what "feels" the same so grain of salt etc.

MK's dtilt (for reference)
Startup: 1-2 / Active: 3-4 / Cooldown: 5-15

Pikachu
Startup: 1-6 / Active: 7-9 / Cooldown: 10-18

Diddy Kong
Startup: 1-3 / Active: 4-6 / Cooldown: 7-24

Maybe this is my bias pika eyes but without a sword disjoint it seems good but not great (I would label pikas good but not great as well, metaknight had a great dtilt). And its his best ground attack option, second best ground option overall probably (actually 4th, forgot about shield and rolling).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The Brawl data is there so you can look it up yourself. Unfortunately since theres no information on cooldown for attacks yet, all I have to go off of is Brawl's data and what "feels" the same so grain of salt etc.

MK's dtilt (for reference)
Startup: 1-2 / Active: 3-4 / Cooldown: 5-15

Pikachu
Startup: 1-6 / Active: 7-9 / Cooldown: 10-18

Diddy Kong
Startup: 1-3 / Active: 4-6 / Cooldown: 7-24

Maybe this is my bias pika eyes but without a sword disjoint it seems good but not great (I would label pikas good but not great as well, metaknight had a great dtilt). And its his best ground attack option, second best ground option overall probably.

I don't think it's a pikachu bias but the truth. The cool down is quick but that start up......

Also saw this but Rosalina doesn't lose to fox or Falcon.

Shiek should probably be played more idk if she'll ever have the results diddy has but she's a ridiculous character. Diddy's ease of use is great for the mom but if people push someone like shiek to her upmost I think there'd be a bigger problem.

I think MM is a really strong character and is only held back by his awkwardness. But his mid range game can be extremely hard to deal with.

There were some people who called the downfall of Wesker. As long as you look at the tools of the character and are objective despite results you can tell what's what. Diddy has a strangle hold right now and it will probably continue for a while depending on patches and stuff.

What's the diddy vs sonic mu considered?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Robin might not be a heavy but she sure does have the frame data of one.

Pre-jump is 8 frames. Slowest walker and one of the slowest runners.

 

[Trifroze]

Robin might not be a heavy but she sure does have the frame data of one.

Pre-jump is 8 frames. Slowest walker and one of the slowest runners.

Slowest runner and one of the slowest walkers you mean?

A heavy archetype to me means someone who's heavyweight or sports high health, has a large frame and bad mobility. Frame data has nothing to do with being heavy, as practically every heavy in every game has some really fast attacks. As such, I'd consider the only real heavies in Smash 4 Ganondorf, Bowser, Dedede, Charizard and ROB. DK's mobility is far too good, he's more like Yoshi or Falcon than the aforementioned heavies. Wario has a below average frame and good mobility, and Robin has a below average frame and medium weight. Bowser Jr, Link and Ike are semi-heavies.

 

[webbedspace]

What's the diddy vs sonic mu considered?

"Spectator poison"

 

[Kofu]

Slowest runner and one of the slowest walkers you mean?

A heavy archetype to me means someone who's heavyweight or sports high health, has a large frame and bad mobility. Frame data has nothing to do with being heavy, as practically every heavy in every game has some really fast attacks. As such, I'd consider the only real heavies in Smash 4 Ganondorf, Bowser, Dedede, Charizard and ROB. DK's mobility is far too good, he's more like Yoshi or Falcon than the aforementioned heavies. Wario has a below average frame and good mobility, and Robin has a below average frame and medium weight. Bowser Jr, Link and Ike are semi-heavies.

DK is actually the third fastest on the ground of the five heaviest characters in the game; Charizard and Bowser both beat him there. What makes DK so much more mobile is his air speed, being in the top 10 overall. He's definitely one of the heavies of the game despite that, though; his frame is quite awkward, invincible arms during attacks notwithstanding. ROB's mobility is far from bad (it's average/slightly above average tbh) but his frame is really awkward, at least for its size. But he's too light to be a full-fledged heavy.

I wouldn't call Robin a heavy but he certainly has a lot of the aspects of one.

 

[Antonykun]

"Spectator poison"

Have you seen vs? Its good if you're a fan of dedicated zoning but not if you expect hype

 

[Nobie]

DK is actually the third fastest on the ground of the five heaviest characters in the game; Charizard and Bowser both beat him there. What makes DK so much more mobile is his air speed, being in the top 10 overall. He's definitely one of the heavies of the game despite that, though; his frame is quite awkward, invincible arms during attacks notwithstanding. ROB's mobility is far from bad (it's average/slightly above average tbh) but his frame is really awkward, at least for its size. But he's too light to be a full-fledged heavy.

I wouldn't call Robin a heavy but he certainly has a lot of the aspects of one.

Though I feel like this goes for just about every character in Smash 4, DK feels so fun to use when you get used to his style. Though I've only messed around with him, there's just something about his mobility that completes his moveset. Not to bring up Diddy again, but even putting aside Will's impressive performance vs. Mew2King a while back, there's something about DK that makes him feel like a formidable opponent even against the tiny monkey.

Speaking of fighting the top tiers, I noticed that DK wrecks Luma like no character I've seen except maybe Ganondorf. It just feels like half his moves can pop Luma right off the stage at 0% and the rest hit hard enough to KO Luma after a few shots.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK wrecks Luma harder, despite how little he is he has moves that violates its existance. Because Luma is so floaty if you leave it to fall off stage you get 17 seconds of no luma. If your on the ball you can predict when it'll respawn and hit it with a DA to kill it again.

 

[Terotrous]

@thehard: As far as Pikachu is concerned, right now I feel like Yoshi is his worst MU. Some other Pikachu mains have agreed with me on that. The way Yoshi is built as a character is just annoying for Pikachu. He's extremely difficult to kill and holds his own well in the neutral game too. Also does a lot more damage per hit than Pikachu does and kills Pikachu easily.

That's interesting, IIRC when Shaya posted matchup charts 20 pages back or so she had Pikachu +1 vs Yoshi and no one really questioned it. The general understanding seems to be that highly mobile characters are trouble for Yoshi, since they disrupt him from controlling the pace of the match with eggs. Yoshi can't really ever escape from Pikachu if he wants to stay in Yoshi's face.

That being said, I can't claim I've ever found Pikachu to be inordinately tough with Yoshi. Yes, he's fast and annoying, but Yoshi's excellent defense helps out a lot here, allowing him to survive a really long time as long as you scout out that sweetspot FSmash. I don't know if it's a plus for Yoshi, but it might be even.

When fighting the Yoshi MU, I would definitely just try to stay on him, he never likes that. This isn't a match for excessive thunder jolting, that's just letting Yoshi have breathing room.

You know what I love about this game? It's so much harder to say who's bottom tier than it is to tell who's high tier. Seriously, I can't think of a character who's even that bad in this game.

I dunno, I can think of a few. Swordfighter, Zelda, and Samus immediately come to mind.

As the meta developed, in about a year, TAC infinities caused everyone to be able to touch of death on a more consistent mix-up meaning Wesker's game dominating shenanigans are essintially not as special on top of his inability to have multi directional air mobility

It seems like this point is vital though. Your analogy rests on us finding combos for other characters that are equal or superior in potency to what Diddy has, and I'm pretty sceptical. There aren't that many true combos in this game, certainly not ones that work at a wide range of percents.

I think that the Yoshi MU is even, but more than almost any matchup it punishes you for making suboptimal decisions. One thing is that egg toss is punishable, so if you are clever with your QA angles you can both avoid the egg itself and also hit Yoshi whenever he egg tosses. In this MU you have to kind of play like Sonic, where you punish Yoshi's mistakes with your burst mobility and then run away and don't let him near you (and shield if he's near you because his grab is poor). Following up on Yoshi in advantage is risky because down-b and d-air are deadly (down-b kills and d-air does way too much damage), and n-air lets him reverse the situation, so you're relying on chip damage mostly. The MU is boring, but even. If you're in disadvantage, you should always skull bash -> Quick Attack to escape, and if you're in advantage, just settle on stage control and wait for another opportunity to punish. It's a matchup defined by neutral and constant resets.

Hmm, I don't know. I feel like short hop egg toss would require a risky preemptive QA to try to punish, since Yoshi can alter his positioning so much while doing it. I've honestly never felt like I'm at a disadvantage vs any character when at range, partially because Yoshi kills fairly early. I'm willing to trade damage with a Pikachu, my kill moves are going to kill about 40% earlier. If you are going to attempt to harass with QA, I think you'd want to stay just outside of Yoshi's Melee range, close enough that you can hit him on the first QA rather than the second. Still seems risky to me, though as you noted attempting CQC on Yoshi is risky as well since his punishes hit hard.

The interesting thing was that Kirby kept trying to punish Yoshi's landing, which is where Yoshi should be weak, but Egg Lay covered his landing every single time. I don't know what viable option Kirby could have done to overcome this.

Character select?

I kid. Matchup does seem really bad though.

Could we please hold off on the comparisons to other fighting game characters? Many readers aren't going to be following you at all, and it becomes mostly a private conversation to the few involved.

Eh, I don't really agree. We're expecting the FGC to understand our game now, so you probably need at least the most basic of knowledge of the other popular fighters too. I'll forgive you if you don't get a reference to something obscure like Divekick or Skullgirls, but if you don't know what Zangief or Morrigan play like you should really just watch a couple matches of those games. Some of that general understanding of the ways different character archetypes interact with each other is transferable between games, so it's not a total waste.

 

[Trifroze]

DK is actually the third fastest on the ground of the five heaviest characters in the game; Charizard and Bowser both beat him there. What makes DK so much more mobile is his air speed, being in the top 10 overall. He's definitely one of the heavies of the game despite that, though; his frame is quite awkward, invincible arms during attacks notwithstanding. ROB's mobility is far from bad (it's average/slightly above average tbh) but his frame is really awkward, at least for its size. But he's too light to be a full-fledged heavy.

I wouldn't call Robin a heavy but he certainly has a lot of the aspects of one.

DK's aerial speed is the reason he's much more mobile than Bowser or Charizard. Running speed means very little unless you have good options out of a dash, hence aerial speed is usually more important for mobility. I could buy DK being classified as a heavy though considering his weight and how big his frame is despite that.