Character Competitive Impressions

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I blame Villager for that more than Sonic.

 

[Cactusblah]

I blame Villager for that more than Sonic.

Villager matches are usually entertaining to watch. Sonic is the problem.

 

[warionumbah2]

Sonic needs to be banned. 2 stock matches should not be 6 minute timeouts.

Rolling around at the speed of sound, got games to time out, gotta TRY NOT TO GET HIT!

 

[Ffamran]

Holy ****! Someone's using Peach and someone's using Olimar! AW YES! And yes, I know I'm late to this... Still, it's cool.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't see how. Villager was shooting projectiles. Sonic was playing it safe. If other players want to ram their faces into slingshots and bowling balls that's their problem. That's not a character thing. Anyone could have done that. Manny was just patient.

 

[Zelder]

Whenever people start talking that "the future meta will only be x, y, and z, I have divined this from 3 months of metagame knowledge", I always think about EVO 2013 (the biggest fighting game tournament in the world, mind you).

The finals of Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition was won by a Gen, which, if you know anything about tiers in Street Fighter 4, is a pretty crazy. Xian, a character specialist, beat out every other player in the world using Gen.

Do I know if Smash 4 is as balanced as Street Fighter 4? No, I don't. But it does seem a bit silly to start arguing that "the competitive future of Smash4 will be these 3, 4 characters, AND THAT'S IT" so early in the game.

Oh, and then Evo 2014, Ultra Street Fighter 4 had a grand finals set between Rose and Sagat (Sagat isn't great in USF4)! Crazy!

 

[HeroMystic]

Villager matches are usually entertaining to watch. Sonic is the problem.

So would you like for Manny to just run into everything with Sonic?

 

[Spinosaurus]

I don't see how. Villager was shooting projectiles. Sonic was playing it safe. If other players want to ram their faces into slingshots and bowling balls that's their problem. That's not a character thing. Anyone could have done that. Manny was just patient.

Manny vs Reflex's Wario last week went like this too. It's not the Villager.

 

[Kofu]

I appreciate this post. However, Ness is not the only one with a kill throw. The best kill throw, yes, but Diddy nets many kills via bthrow, and Sonic nets many with bthrow and fthrow.

Sonic's throws are really silly, too, forgot to mention them. Diddy's BThrow isn't that strong and I suspect he only really gets those kills because of instinctive reactions to his DThrow. Sonic's throws are icing on the cake to his absurd strengths, Diddy's are supplementary at best.

This is in response to tournament Sonic gameplay, which is important to note. Optimally played Sonics revolve around stalling, which is a real issue.

I agree. Villager slows games down but in that MU that has a lot to do with the fact that Villager's NAir beats out Sonic's Spin Dash approaches. It goes back to waiting for the opponent to mess up and then rushing in to punish. Speed camping is a legitimate issue in this game (Falcon and to a degree Fox can do it, too).

 

[Sinister Slush]

So does Rosalina or Sonic matches.

And then 6wx vs M2k almost went to time.
It's definitely the Sonic.

 

[Chuva]

Sonic vs any character that can pose a threat to his B&B approaches (notice how the Villager kept throwing preemptive jabs in the neutral) usually becomes a snooze fest MU, specially at a competitive environment where people usually avoid yolo tactics. A battle of patience.

The only set I played vs a competent Sonic in locals started with him doing his thing until he realized Star Bits and Luma's rapid jab was stuffing half of his approaches. That's when the match went downhill in terms of entertainment value.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic wanted to go in as much as possible. Couldn't because of X. I don't see why that's his problem and not the other character.

Guile keeps throwing Sonic Booms and Zangief won't just eat them. What a campy Zangief!

How long did that ZSS/Sonic match last? It sure wasn't to time out.

 

[HeroMystic]

Essentially, everyone is starting to realize Sonic's Spin Dash can be punished, so Sonic's main mix-up tool is becoming nonviable.

So the best choice for Sonic is to stay back and wait for an opening.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Whenever people start talking that "the future meta will only be x, y, and z, I have divined this from 3 months of metagame knowledge", I always think about EVO 2013 (the biggest fighting game tournament in the world, mind you).

The finals of Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition was won by a Gen, which, if you know anything about tiers in Street Fighter 4, is a pretty crazy. Xian, a character specialist, beat out every other player in the world using Gen.

Do I know if Smash 4 is as balanced as Street Fighter 4? No, I don't. But it does seem a bit silly to start arguing that "the competitive future of Smash4 will be these 3, 4 characters, AND THAT'S IT" so early in the game.

Oh, and then Evo 2014, Ultra Street Fighter 4 had a grand finals set between Rose and Sagat (Sagat isn't great in USF4)! Crazy!

Careful bringing up Sagat EmblemLord may right a dissertation how much Sagat has been nerfed since Vanilla.

Zero and m2k play on a regular basis is anyone really surprised by Zero putting in work? Diddy's metagame is evolving fast because of the top players playing him. Just like MK in brawl the question is how long it will take for the other characters to catch up.

 

[Conda]

Sonic vs any character that can pose a threat to his B&B approaches (notice how the Villager kept throwing preemptive jabs in the neutral) usually becomes a snooze fest MU, specially at a competitive environment where people usually avoid yolo tactics. A battle of patience.

The only set I played vs a competent Sonic in locals started with him doing his thing until he realized Star Bits and Luma's rapid jab was stuffing half of his approaches. That's when the match went downhill in terms of entertainment value.

Yup. Basically Sonic destroys you becaue you don't have options, but if you are a character who DOES have options, he stalls and speed camps the match.

Careful bringing up Sagat EmblemLord may right a dissertation how much Sagat has been nerfed since Vanilla.

Zero and m2k play on a regular basis is anyone really surprised by Zero putting in work? Diddy's metagame is evolving fast because of the top players playing him. Just like MK in brawl the question is how long it will take for the other characters to catch up.

People don't want to see this, but it's true. There were a bunch of great characters in Brawl who could do NASTY things, but MK's nastiness was just nastier. Which is a big deal when the top players flock to that character and make them even more scary and difficult to counter strat against.

It's Kingmaking to a degree. Diddy is already strong objectively design-wise, but his metagame advances over other characters makes him comparably more threatening in tournament play than other characters.

Those who play characters who are ignored by top-level players have an uphill battle. The rest of the cast grows less and less viable as they are ignored, and the small amount of 'developed' competitive characters continue being dominant. This is the effect PLAYERS have on the metagame - it's not all about the characters and their strengths, but how players can negate the development of the metagame for their competition in the roster. Playing Diddy will become easier as the top level players study him and develop his meta more, when other characters will be left in the dust.

You can't blame the top players for choosing Diddy, but it is unfortunate how the meta for every other character is hurt as a result of negligence. Multi-character top-level players provide health to the metagame and development for multiple characters. This keeps multiple characters relevant and developing alongside the top characters. With the way things are now, Diddy is at a disproportional advantage on meta advancement alone, with the other few top tier characters behind him. Everyone else is nowhere close to them.

 

[Zelder]

Careful bringing up Sagat EmblemLord may right a dissertation how much Sagat has been nerfed since Vanilla.

Zero and m2k play on a regular basis is anyone really surprised by Zero putting in work? Diddy's metagame is evolving fast because of the top players playing him. Just like MK in brawl the question is how long it will take for the other characters to catch up.

If he argued about how much Sagat has been nerfed, it would only help my point, because he got top 2 in the biggest tournament of the year.

Other anecdotal evidence: Yun was the Diddy Kong of Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition - very powerful, very dominant, great options, too much reward for his actions, etc. All the top players were convinced that he'd dominate the meta game the whole time.

The only time a Yun appeared in top 8 the entirety that Arcade Edition was in Evo (2011 - 2013, 3 tournaments) was 2011, and a Yun never broke top 8.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well the reason why Sagat and Rose made EVO was because of the metagame shift, due to the adjustments Capcom made to the actual engine of the game.

So thats not really a fair example to bring them up.

I do not foresee Nintendo changing the games actual engine.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY

You can talk to me about Sagat when you manage to take a set off me rofl.

 

[Shaya]

The mobility specials in a free moving engine are way too good, as many have said.
To combat them you generally need to give a lot of respect and think 2-3 steps ahead of the opponent. It sucks because against the best characters, their frame data/neutral state is so strong that you can't just play a game where you're able to react to those movement specials while covering other things.

Anyway.
ZSS isn't easy.
I don't think she universally beats everyone. She's got a lot of potential though.
BUT.
her neutral b laser is not god tier. It isn't "safe" on shield or a frame trap unless charged (a lot), you can definitely take a positional advantage gain against her if you're shielding it properly. Most characters can completely out prioritise it with their aerials and smack her (which is an interesting nuance of the sheik MU where her fair isn't doing enough damage to beat it out, so ZSS gets guaranteed clashing stun Up-B's)
Her down B is quite good but definitely not disgusting like bouncing fish or quick attack at all, not even close. I'm not sure how the invincibility works with the move (perhaps moving the stick for 'rotations' is what causes it or something?), but it's somewhat consistent for a things like thunder, all of diddy's aerials, etc etc to just 'win' through the spin. It can be used aggressively but it's high risk / high reward.
It's one of the best moves in double though, holy crap. ZSS can literally be controlling two fights on opposite sides of the stage at the same time better than most (if not everyone) because of how destructive ground stomps / meteorish footstools / super kicks can be when covered by your partner and the speed

Up-B is very powerful, but somewhat like Ness if you're ramboing into her off stage and can pop out with DI you'll kill her in horizontal scenarios. If she loses down-b she's in a lot of trouble usually, but it isn't too bad if you have your mid air jump, better players expect the mid air jump option too though. It roofying and killing early is a mixture of people not having optimal DI (you want to go horizontally) and not respecting that you can't DI/shuffle out of it if ZSS picks 1 of the 3 angles properly a lot of the time (unless you're little mac).

Her challenging (not necessarily losing) match ups include
Possibly/probably loses to ; Greninja seems hard too? Olimar?
*cough Ganondorf and Link do pretty well cough*

Anyway a point on ZSS is that she still struggles against smart shielding at mid-range. Don't over shield, that's silly (she's fine at waiting it out, and that's actually a really good situation for her a lot of the time when she reads shields, she can stand and react eventually ). But unless neutral-b is charged it's pretty easy to negate it as a pressure tool, if you're a short character nair, fair, uair, bair, zair are no longer immediate or sometimes ever usable options (rar bair does swipe short characters sometimes though I should check the heights sometime).
ZSS can get grabs in this game better than in Brawl imo due to the shield changes, but at the same time I don't think people should be getting grabbed after any form of shield pressure; don't do silly rolls or jumps.

Beyond Up-B set ups or OoS punishes (based 4 frames), she can really struggle to kill, often only being able to fish for back airs. Back air is long range and generally safe but it's only out for 2 frames and can be crouched under. If people get consistent/better at shuffling out of Up-B she'll be kinda screwed tbqh. But i'm in the boat that the right position + right angle of up-b guarantees it 90% of the time.

 

[Kofu]

People always want to play the characters with the greatest reward for the least work, unless the reward for more technical characters is clearly superior (see Fox in Brawl and, IIRC since I don't play GG, Eddie). Diddy simply has such ridiculous reward for simple gameplay (Sheik and Sonic are similar). MK in Brawl was a textbook example of this but Falco, at least at mid to high levels of play, also fit the bill since a lot of what made him good was fairly easy to execute.

And then there's me who finds top tiers boring (some just don't mesh with my playstyle) and chooses to play characters that are, often, clearly inferior on both reward and effort fronts.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well the reason why Sagat and Rose made EVO was because of the metagame shift, due to the adjustments Capcom made to the actual engine of the game.

So thats not really a fair example to bring them up.

I do not foresee Nintendo changing the games actual engine.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY

You can talk to me about Sagat when you manage to take a set off me rofl.

We can play whenever I dropped ultra since my character got nerfed though......

 

[Kofu]

@ Shaya how is Bouncing Fish so much superior to Flip Jump? It's certainly faster and harder to punish on reaction as a result, but Flip Jump feels far more flexible and is better for recovery and movement in general. I'm not trying to discount attack speed but that seems like the only advantage BF has.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

the only top tier i dont boring is shiek. but honestly i just dont find to threating. plus shes fun to fight. diddy was always painfull to watch and play against so yeah...PMplayers will tell you 2.
rosa im more okay with fighting buts shes still boring.
everyone else im quite okay with.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja vs ZSS was discussed a little bit in the Greninja boards and I'm fairly sure the consensus is that the MU is even. Greninja has a faster projectile with more range and I believe he can hit ZSS out of a grab with his quick jab so it makes Nair a very good tool for approaching against her since if you short hop it's likely that she won't be able to grab out of shield, her options on the ground also tend to leave her vulnerable quite a lot if shielded I think. Still ZSS can keep up with Greninja's speed and her aerials come really fast compared to his and her combos are pretty deadly, though Greninja is no slouch either.

Also Greninja can hitstun cancel Shadow Sneak to escape ZSS's F-Smash, not sure if the same can be done to Up-B though if it can though that kinda takes a really good tool of ZSS's out.

So I feel the MU is 50-50, 55-45 in Greninja's favor at best. If he can get out of her up-b consistently though, I think it could reach 60-40.

I might be completely wrong though so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya how is Bouncing Fish so much superior to Flip Jump? It's certainly faster and harder to punish on reaction as a result, but Flip Jump feels far more flexible and is better for recovery and movement in general. I'm not trying to discount attack speed but that seems like the only advantage BF has.

Because if bouncing fish activates on something (so any bounce, even air dodges it sometimes does), it comes back. If she gets hit, it comes back.
ZSS flip jump clearly loses to shields in all scenarios and she can only use it once per landing on the ground or ledge grab.

ZSS has auto cancels on Flip Jump, so platform stages can help her in such a way that the move may seem to be as good as Bouncing Fish in safety. But no way is it remotely as good as bouncing fish, holy crap lol. That moves priority and I'm pretty sure it's invincibility as well, completely horizontal trajectory and minimal lag make it one of the best moves to ever exist in a Smash game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

People always want to play the characters with the greatest reward for the least work, unless the reward for more technical characters is clearly superior (see Fox in Brawl and, IIRC since I don't play GG, Eddie). Diddy simply has such ridiculous reward for simple gameplay (Sheik and Sonic are similar). MK in Brawl was a textbook example of this but Falco, at least at mid to high levels of play, also fit the bill since a lot of what made him good was fairly easy to execute.

And then there's me who finds top tiers boring (some just don't mesh with my playstyle) and chooses to play characters that are, often, clearly inferior on both reward and effort fronts.

I believe you are a masochist. There's literally no reason to punish yourself with bad characters and if you are going to play a bad character at the very least play a top tier on the side.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I believe you are a masochist. There's literally no reason to punish yourself with bad characters and if you are going to play a bad character at the very least play a top tier on the side.

have you ever figured that onelikes to play character they like? or ontop of that dont click with the top tiers plays styles?
I like to play heavy characters what top tier to u recomend?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Not everyone shares that philosophy. Some people just like who they like. I personally prefer that method of character selection.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

have you ever figured that onelikes to play character they like? or ontop of that dont click with the top tiers plays styles?
I like to play heavy characters what top tier to u recomend?

Yoshi or Falcon.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi is anything but top tier.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yoshi or Falcon.

neither of those are heavy enough i should make my self more clear i like to play fatties who should i play.

 

[Thinkaman]

As a friendly reminder: No one is allowed to advocate forcing all characters to use their default moves and then complain that only characters with good defaults are winning.

 

[Shaya]

I've developed my way of thinking/playing Smash through specific means over the years, my transition from Marth is because I feel I have the most congruent option in ZSS while being rewarded for her efforts (power shield punishes make me moist). I've heard Mario, Sheik, the Pits, Ike and Shulk a lot as alternatives but I'm more keen for a spacing game so less of Mario (and heck, I play G&W who *hick* has very similar moves to him), I haven't put time into Shulk and the rest don't move or act like I would want to (I'll probably find time to play Sheik more in the coming weeks just as pass time). You should want to win, and sometimes the play style that you are most comfortable with isn't available on a tournament viable character, which sucks a lot because you're looking at another 6 year wait perhaps. But if you intend to go to tournaments, if you intend to really learn and understand this game at a high or top level, then you'll need to find one

Diddy and Falcon are playing a lot like heavies/grapplers but obviously a lot less weight. Falcon kinda doesn't die though.
Ike and DK are the most viable super-heavies, I guess.

 

[Hippieslayer]

seriously kofu?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I've developed my way of thinking/playing Smash through specific means over the years, my transition from Marth is because I feel I have the most congruent option in ZSS while being rewarded for her efforts. I've heard Mario, Sheik, the Pits, Ike and Shulk a lot as alternatives but I'm more keen for a spacing game so less of Mario (and heck, I play G&W who *hick* has very similar moves to him), I haven't put time into Shulk and the rest don't move or act like I would want to. You should want to win, and sometimes the play style that you are most comfortable with isn't available on a tournament viable character.

Diddy and Falcon are playing a lot like heavies/grapplers but obviously a lot less weight. Falcon kinda doesn't die though.
Ike and DK are the most viable super-heavies, I guess.

Then its oh well for me. :/ i cant use characters i have no motivation to use ill just have to find some way to make it work.
if i play a character that i just dont like using im basically making my self hate the game. im incapable of doing such things. if it makes me a lesser player for doing so. so be it. i play competitivly but if i cant have fun using my characters than why bother.

 

[Shaya]

Then its oh well for me. :/ i cant use characters i have no motivation to use ill just have to find some way to make it work.
if i play a character that i just dont like using im basically making my self hate the game. im incapable of doing such things. if it makes me a lesser player for doing so. so be it. i play competitivly but if i cant have fun using my characters than why bother.

That's why I say you need to continue the search. Watch lots of videos of top level players
If any one of the 15 to 20 solid characters in this game have no synergy with you, then go ahead with your favourite character, work your ass off.

 

[FullMoon]

I just play the characters I like the most or the ones whose playstyle suits me well. It just happened that the two characters I use the most (Greninja as main and Mario as secondary) are pretty good in this game. I play to win, but I play to win with the characters I like the most even if they're not top tier. It just makes it even more satisfying when I do manage to win against the top characters.

I tried to play with Diddy and Sheik and I just didn't like them so I'm just going to stay with the characters I have actual fun playing with.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

neither of those are heavy enough i should make my self more clear i like to play fatties who should i play.

You shouldn't play fatties problem solved?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That's why I say you need to continue the search. Watch lots of videos of top level players

I try to catch as much streams as i can but it can be trouble some when getting supplies to get to tournys.
Iv found my characters i use and ill continue to put my best effort into it. i personnaly would like to think that im no lesser than another for making this decision though.

@AlMoStLeNdAry

so ur ideology to make me give up what i like doing,to do something i dont like doing? perfect.

 

[Conda]

Alright guys, less talk about character selection philosophies and how we all play characters we <3
Tow big tournaments just occurred, we have a lot to talk about.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Alright guys, less talk about character selection philosophies and how we all play characters we <3
Tow big tournaments just occurred, we have a lot to talk about.

lol conda to snap us straight. good call these conversations can get out of hand on even the most collected of fourms.


Ima calm my self down by watching some steven universe.