Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

ZSS has THE punishes.

Diddy is just bananas. Shout outs to forward air for being better than 80% of character's tools in every situation.

Pikachu cheats because SakuWHYYYY hurtbox animation WHYsaku. Up-B is corny but possibly surmountable. Olimar~

Sheik living in a world of infinite options with limited survivability.

Fox, Falcon and Ness undoubtedly worse than Sonic? People need to calm down. Sonic speed is just an illusion.

I know I shouldn't say this, but I hope my "I LOVE YOUR ZSS" daily routine to Nairo has gotten him to play her more =)
However that ilk don't think she's top 5 or some top 10. Nairo is exceptional but her limitations on very smart shielding are currently not too well explored. I still think she's around 5thish though. You'd probably want to switch out against Diddy if you have a better choice. Pikachu wins neutral so disgustingly but dies at 50% so it's okay! Maybe.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's no rankings in For Glory, so who cares if you use the best characters?

Well, there's your personal records but no can see that. People CAN insult you by abusing name tags
though. But even if this isn't the reason, I still see very little dedicated Diddy players online.

 

[TriTails]

Also @ TriTails I rate Toon Link far higher than regular Link in Sm4sh. At first I didn't, I mained Link in Brawl for years and he's undoubtedly better in this iteration and I've enjoyed playing as him but I still think TLink has the edge over him. I initially thought perhaps Link's general buffs in addition to his raw kill power were enough to make him the better character but the more I play and see of both characters the more I'm proven wrong. The difference is not quite as pronounced as in Brawl as Link is definitely a viable character but I think he's certainly a step below TLink who just has an easier time racking up damage in my opinion. His projectiles + mobility are unparalleled in this game and he's certainly not lacking in kill power or safe kill setups. I genuinely think he's at a Ness/Yoshi/etc level of viability in this game.

I think that's kinda strecthing it. I don't play Tink, but I used to play Link back then. And Toon Link, while he is definitely capable on leaving you in the dust if 'YOU'RE TOO SLOW!' (Can't resist, sorry), he still has Link's weaknesses. His projectiles are all slow, including his arrows. At least, Link had fast (But still has to be charged) arrows.

Tink also suffers from disappointing recovery for a lightweight. I don't know how fast his air speed is, but I see no differences to Link, and Link is way heavier (Well, Tink is lighter than Mario right? Link is heavier than Mario, so you do the math).

And another is his lack of range from his TP counterpart. Though, I don't think this is much of a big deal since his speed maaaannn.....

I honestly had more problem fighting Tinks than Links. Dunno, maybe because Links spam the same thing all over again (Boomerang, Bombs, Arrows, rinse wash dry repeat nonsense). While Tink is also capable on doing that, his arrows are just too slow, and like I did with Link, I Nado through them all. However, I underestimate his sword slashing and mobility way too much and often. I guess I have to change my attitude towards him.

Yeah, I think Tink may be better than TP Link, but I'm not seeing him making it to Top 15. I never seen Tink in tourney action though. So it may be just me who is unfamiliar with him.

 

[mimgrim]

Tink also suffers from disappointing recovery for a lightweight. I don't know how fast his air speed is, but I see no differences to Link, and Link is way heavier (Well, Tink is lighter than Mario right? Link is heavier than Mario, so you do the math).

If only there were a place you could go to and check.... Oh wait.

http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-smash-academy.514/

Tis magical places has all kind of data, including...

http://smashboards.com/threads/wip-...-decisive-arts-pit-dark-pit-rectified.383217/

air speed values!

Toon Link has an air speed value of 0.7250 and ranked at 31-34 rank while Link has a value of 0.6500 and is ranked at 42.

But wait mimgrim, what about weight? Well this magical data place also has weight rankings!

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

Toon Link is indeed lighter then Mario.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh wow I never realized how fast Mario's air speed in this game, totally makes sense why I felt like he was faster.

 

[HeroMystic]

If Diddy is only 'Top of the top tiers' because of his U-air, bring back Luigi's N-air from Brawl and see just how 'OP' he is.

I doubt if that's the only thing that makes Diddy great. Guess I'll just have to watch some streams to find out.

Emblem Lord already answered this correctly, but I'll reiterate. What makes Diddy so great isn't his D-throw > U-air (though it is certainly an amazing crutch tool), it's the fact he can just not give a care in the world about anything a character does not named Sheik, Sonic, or Pikachu. Everything a character does, Diddy has an answer for.

Shield? Grab.
Toss out buttons? Banana.
Aerial Approach? Monkey Flip.
Spacing? F-air. (RIP if you're tall)
DI Diddy's D-throw? F-air.

Diddy forces you to play his game and there's honestly not much any character can do about it. There's some exploitable holes in Diddy's gameplay but only a select few can take advantage of it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I bet when Mewtwo comes around they'll take the opprotunity to release a balance patch, since they have to patch the game anyways so that people without mewtwo can play against mewtwo online w/o buying him. Either that or they will make Mewtwo's sole purpose to be a counter to Diddy Kong XD

 

[David Viran]

ZSS has THE punishes.

Diddy is just bananas. Shout outs to forward air for being better than 80% of character's tools in every situation.

Pikachu cheats because SakuWHYYYY hurtbox animation WHYsaku. Up-B is corny but possibly surmountable. Olimar~

Sheik living in a world of infinite options with limited survivability.

Fox, Falcon and Ness undoubtedly worse than Sonic? People need to calm down. Sonic speed is just an illusion.

I know I shouldn't say this, but I hope my "I LOVE YOUR ZSS" daily routine to Nairo has gotten him to play her more =)
However that ilk don't think she's top 5 or some top 10. Nairo is exceptional but her limitations on very smart shielding are currently not too well explored. I still think she's around 5thish though. You'd probably want to switch out against Diddy if you have a better choice. Pikachu wins neutral so disgustingly but dies at 50% so it's okay! Maybe.

Switch characters never not even if it's brawl mk ganon bad. But in all seriousness does nairo even know the zss Diddy MU. I mean I haven't seen the grand finals with zero yet but he didn't seem to know it when he faced anti's Diddy.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Ganon tourney?

http://smashboards.com/threads/gano...ogress-dont-panic.369676/page-9#post-18270427

http://challonge.com/GITBCE2

What's amazing is that it not only has Ganons from Europe, & North America but also top Ganons from Japan.

It will be awesome to see who makes it to the finals, my bets on Gungnir (Japan), Pon (Japan) and Ray Kalm (Canada).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I bet when Mewtwo comes around they'll take the opprotunity to release a balance patch, since they have to patch the game anyways so that people without mewtwo can play against mewtwo online w/o buying him. Either that or they will make Mewtwo's sole purpose to be a counter to Diddy Kong XD

This would not surprise me. I'd caution against expecting a patch but it does seem likely that they'll take the opportunity. The time frame seems reasonable too, they'll have had quite a few months to observe the game and see what's strong (and what's weak).

Buff Zelda's utilt another 0.5% plz Sakurai.

 

[Asdioh]

Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu and Sonic imo are just honestly that REAL character gap. The amount of disrespect they can put out during gameplay is insane to me. I have been labbing really hard with Sheik for example and she is just dirty.

This game is closer then any other smash and certainly closer then most fighters but tiers are still very very real.

The top 4 for the 37 person tourney I went to in Rhode Island yesterday:
1. ZSS
2. Sonic
3. Diddy/Wario/ROB I believe
4. Diddy

http://challonge.com/HavenSmash2_Smash4_Singles
http://www.smashladder.com/rankings/sm4sh-wii-u/7 hey look who's first :O

Why must the results continue to support what you guys have been saying

Emblem Lord already answered this correctly, but I'll reiterate. What makes Diddy so great isn't his D-throw > U-air (though it is certainly an amazing crutch tool), it's the fact he can just not give a care in the world about anything a character does not named Sheik, Sonic, or Pikachu. Everything a character does, Diddy has an answer for.

Shield? Grab.
Toss out buttons? Banana.
Aerial Approach? Monkey Flip.
Spacing? F-air. (RIP if you're tall)
DI Diddy's D-throw? F-air.

Diddy forces you to play his game and there's honestly not much any character can do about it. There's some exploitable holes in Diddy's gameplay but only a select few can take advantage of it.

Yep, I got absolutely bodied by the Diddy that got 4th (I placed 7th of 37 solo Kirby go me?)
He was definitely a good player and got good reads, but in literally every situation it was "wtf do I do"
I haven't watched the ZeRo matches you guys are talking about but I felt the "rampage" vibe from my own matches. I got to save the replay to see what I did wrong at least (hint it's probably picking Kirby)
edit: I lost my first stock within 40 seconds! And that's half my stocks because it's 2-stock :x
I feel like if you're REALLY good you might be able to win stuff with Kirby, but in that case might as well just pick Diddy Kong and have an easier time winning.

Also the Sheik/Diddy being the better character debate: I feel Sheik might be better character on paper, but realistically Diddy Kong will always have better results, assuming the user isn't a robot with perfect timing and decision making 100% of the time. Diddy forces shields (which he grabs) or banana trips into grabs, or jumping into his disgusting aerials/monkey flips too easily, and those constant punishes rack up more damage than Sheik and KO much, much more easily. I played some Sheiks (in tourney and friendlies) yesterday and still think at the very least Kirby, a low tier () character, does very well against her because he can live for a long time despite his weight and has much stronger KO options. Meanwhile Diddy Kong just kills me whenever I get to 90%, every time.

Also yesterday I finally got to experience firsthand what makes ZSS so good. I've never really played a good one before, and all I knew about the matchup is "Kirby ducks under 80% of her moveset!" At the very least I learned that UpB is insanely strong and took stocks in that tournament left and right, and DownB is pretty much unpunishable(?) because Nintendo likes to make high-mobility moves have a lot of invincibility and low ending lag?


Also can we please nerf the giant word "GO!" at the start of the match because I got hit by a Diddy F-air hidden behind the words and he doesn't need anymore advantages

 

[Kofu]

Yeah so I played a good ZSS last night which reminded me of the following dumb move attributes she has: frame 1 jab (fine on Little Mac but not on her because a strong ground game is LM's schtick), paralyzer (all it really needs is slightly more endlag to make it less safe on shield but the amount of pressure is produces is stupid because of the reward in hit), FLIP JUMP (I could write a dissertation on how dumb that move is honestly, startup invincibility, flexible jump angle, massive and enduring kick that buries/meteors or launches really dang far, bounces off shields to makes punishing a nightmare, one of if not the most absurdly designed moves in the game), and ZAir when she has side-b for tether recovery (this is more of a minor nitpick but still, why can she ZAir when Villager can't use his net in the air like was advertised in his intro video). Also, not sure on this, but she seems to have better damage per hit than normal Samus (could just be that more of her attacks hit/string into each other, IDK).

Huh. Doing this makes me realize that I need to spotdodge as a defensive option more instead of defaulting to shield when I want to remain in place.

Also Diddy's FAir/UAir are dumb. His FAir was dumb in Brawl too but I don't remember as many complaints from those days.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I've been saying ZSS is one of the best for a while. Glad people are realizing it!

Also I don't think Sonic is top 5 but it's really not a big deal if people think he is. Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, Pikachu and Ness are all above him imo and probably Rosalina too. I would totally believe Fox, Yoshi and Lucario...Yoshi the least out of those and wouldn't be surprised if Shulk is still pretty freaking untapped.

 

[HeroMystic]

This would not surprise me. I'd caution against expecting a patch but it does seem likely that they'll take the opportunity. The time frame seems reasonable too, they'll have had quite a few months to observe the game and see what's strong (and what's weak).

I'm not optimistic about it. While I'm sure Nintendo wants to get behind the competitive scene (because $$$), I don't think they'll take the opportunity to patch the game, especially since, all things considered, this game has been the most balanced thus far.

+1 for ZSS's Down-B being really janky. Recovery move, GTFO move, and a kill move all in one.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm not optimistic about it. While I'm sure Nintendo wants to get behind the competitive scene (because $$$), I don't think they'll take the opportunity to patch the game, especially since, all things considered, this game has been the most balanced thus far.

+1 for ZSS's Down-B being really janky. Recovery move, GTFO move, and a kill move all in one.

even in they just fix diddy thats i would be happy. everyone else feels unjanked to fight. ilove fighting shiek to be honest. its just an mu i dont fear all that much even on ganon. also the only top tier i enjoy watching.

anyways what did everybody think of ihacks and tk breezys preformance yesterday?

 

[Pazx]

Neither iHack(s?) nor TKBreezy are actually that good but it was very hype.

How would you "fix" Diddy? Less knockback growth on Uair? Endlag on Uair? Higher knockback (/growth) on dthrow?

also @ everyone please learn to di the dthrow uair, it makes your "diddy is OP" claims far more legitimate

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not optimistic about it. While I'm sure Nintendo wants to get behind the competitive scene (because $$$), I don't think they'll take the opportunity to patch the game, especially since, all things considered, this game has been the most balanced thus far.

+1 for ZSS's Down-B being really janky. Recovery move, GTFO move, and a kill move all in one.

Can you people stop complaining about flip jump please >_>

If she bounces off you head she's vulnerable until she lands and a good bit after that.
If she kicks she's unsafe as hell.
If she doesn't kick she incurs a very low-lag landing animation.

What does this mean?

Dash under her when she flip jumps onto the stage and hold R. There, you're done. She loses.

Flip Jump isn't good. In fact it's really bad except for use during recovery and out of stuns.[/quote]

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't think we have a stream commentary thread but ChoZox is putting in work with Samus. Good ****.

 

[M15t3R E]

I watched Paragon2015 live yesterday and I still do not understand why people fear Diddy so much. He's such a cookie cutter character who's options are predictable and combos (especially grab combos) are DI'able unless perhaps you are an extreme fast faller.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I bet when Mewtwo comes around they'll take the opprotunity to release a balance patch, since they have to patch the game anyways so that people without mewtwo can play against mewtwo online w/o buying him. Either that or they will make Mewtwo's sole purpose to be a counter to Diddy Kong XD

Plot twist: Mewtwo becomes a counter to everyone, not just Diddy.

 

[HeroMystic]

Can you people stop complaining about flip jump please >_>

If she bounces off you head she's vulnerable until she lands and a good bit after that.
If she kicks she's unsafe as hell.
If she doesn't kick she incurs a very low-lag landing animation.

What does this mean?

Dash under her when she flip jumps onto the stage and hold R. There, you're done. She loses.

Flip Jump isn't good. In fact it's really bad except for use during recovery and out of stuns.

My plan worked.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My plan worked.

You don't need a plan. If there is a specific part of ZSS that mystifies you, I am happy to help.

The internet (especially casuals and reddit) overrate ZSS so much. She's good for sure but some of this whining is ridiculous.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I don't think we have a stream commentary thread but ChoZox is putting in work with Samus. Good ****.

The Little Mac on stream right now is pretty nice, too. Incredibly patient.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sounds like Yoshi.
Overrate him, throw him in Top 3/5 early on for their tierlists at the beginning of this thread or just in general the first couple weeks of Wii U, and now for an example after months have passed, Shaya doesn't even bring up Yoshi anymore in favor of Ness and Pikachu for his fotm OH GOD DEY OP

Honestly, is Dair a problem for everyone? Hit him, his hitbox is connected to the move, literally any decent Uair or Usmash will beat it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The Little Mac on stream right now is pretty nice, too. Incredibly patient.

Just like Punchout! Wait for your chance and EXPLODE!

Sounds like Yoshi.
Overrate him, throw him in Top 3/5 early on for their tierlists at the beginning of this thread or just in general the first couple weeks of Wii U, and now for an example after months have passed, Shaya doesn't even bring up Yoshi anymore in favor of Ness and Pikachu for his fotm OH GOD DEY OP

Honestly, is Dair a problem for everyone? Hit him, his hitbox is connected to the move, literally any decent Uair or Usmash will beat it.

To be fair except maybe Sheik and Diddy the top 10ish is a constantly evolving landscape. The game is still early in its lifespan.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Neither iHack(s?) nor TKBreezy are actually that good but it was very hype.

How would you "fix" Diddy? Less knockback growth on Uair? Endlag on Uair? Higher knockback (/growth) on dthrow?

also @ everyone please learn to di the dthrow uair, it makes your "diddy is OP" claims far more legitimate

i know how to di it lol up air out of shield is what catches me most.
but i dont know to persay fix it. but i for what ever reason would probably like u air to have start up lag like peaches fair and stuff.

 

[etecoon]

Neither iHack(s?) nor TKBreezy are actually that good but it was very hype.

How would you "fix" Diddy? Less knockback growth on Uair? Endlag on Uair? Higher knockback (/growth) on dthrow?

also @ everyone please learn to di the dthrow uair, it makes your "diddy is OP" claims far more legitimate

Uair knockback is probably the biggest thing for me, even if that were weakened Diddy would be one of the best characters or maybe still the best character but there's always going to be a best character and that's ok. But for what his character type is(fast, high priority on some things, has banana jank, command grab that also allows him to escape pressure, has options against everything) he shouldn't be killing people under 100% with such an easy attack. It isn't the Falcon knee, it's really really easy to create situations where you have at least a 50% chance of getting the uair

Not getting my hopes up for the patch though, best case scenario probably is that Mewtwo is really good and gives us another solid top tier so it keeps at least some players off the Diddy bandwagon

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just like Punchout! Wait for your chance and EXPLODE!


To be fair except maybe Sheik and Diddy the top 10ish is a constantly evolving landscape. The game is still early in its lifespan.

sfp and I are aware, it's just both hilarious and annoying people are hopping on bandwagons so quickly not waiting a few months before saying what's dumb and what isn't.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thank you guys, haha.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

sfp and I are aware, it's just both hilarious and annoying people are hopping on bandwagons so quickly not waiting a few months before saying what's dumb and what isn't.

As a Sonic main I definitely sympathize. lol I'm still not willing to say with conviction that I think he's being overrated though I do feel that way at the moment.

 

[Antonykun]

Hey guys what do you think would be some ways to buff Swordfighter without making them not be like their archetypes?

 

[Conda]

Neither iHack(s?) nor TKBreezy are actually that good but it was very hype.

How would you "fix" Diddy? Less knockback growth on Uair? Endlag on Uair? Higher knockback (/growth) on dthrow?

also @ everyone please learn to di the dthrow uair, it makes your "diddy is OP" claims far more legitimate

Everyone facing ZeRo did. Uair becomes fair. No big deal. Diddy can also use bthrow or fthrow to kill with your dthrow DI so yeah.

People - a character is not top tier because of one move/mechanic (paralyzer, dthrow-uair, spindash, luma shot). Do not simplify things to make your arguments easier to make as to why these characters are easy to counter.

I don't think we have a stream commentary thread but ChoZox is putting in work with Samus. Good ****.

Going forward, I have the cynical feeling that any good player I hear about will get magically 2 stocked by ZeRo and his Diddy, like the rest of the top level players last night who we THOUGHT were matched viability-wise with ZeRo's Diddy.

 

[HeroMystic]

You don't need a plan. If there is a specific part of ZSS that mystifies you, I am happy to help.

The internet (especially casuals and reddit) overrate ZSS so much. She's good for sure but some of this whining is ridiculous.

Every once in awhile I like to start something. That said, ZSS is someone I'm interested in deciphering as a whole. While the note on Down-B is good, my main concern is U-Air > U-Air > Up-B. A fellow Mario main and I are trying to see if this can be DI'd out of, or broken in some way, because that is capable of killing extremely early off a D-throw D-Smash.

Edited to correct typo, thanks Slush.

 

[David Viran]

Can you people stop complaining about flip jump please >_>

If she bounces off you head she's vulnerable until she lands and a good bit after that.
If she kicks she's unsafe as hell.
If she doesn't kick she incurs a very low-lag landing animation.

What does this mean?

Dash under her when she flip jumps onto the stage and hold R. There, you're done. She loses.

Flip Jump isn't good. In fact it's really bad except for use during recovery and out of stuns.

[/quote]
You are right but its not that easy if she bounces off your head because she has full aerial control still. And you really shouldnt use it to approach anyway but it can be comboed into for kills is basically a better airdodge too because of the invincibility frames. Flip jump is good but can't do everything.

Also the casuals overrate her but the competetive community underrated for a while until now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Every once in awhile I like to start something. That said, ZSS is someone I'm interested in deciphering as a whole. While the note on Down-B is good, my main concern is U-Air > U-Air > Up-B. A fellow Mario main and I are trying to see if this can be DI'd out of, or broken in some way, because that is capable of killing extremely early off a D-throw.

Think you mean Dsmash
It's capable of killing at all if she gets a landing Uair lol












Screw that combo.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Hey guys what do you think would be some ways to buff Swordfighter without making them not be like their archetypes?

Buff the range and speed to make them a walling character with mid-range pokes.

 

[David Viran]

Every once in awhile I like to start something. That said, ZSS is someone I'm interested in deciphering as a whole. While the note on Down-B is good, my main concern is U-Air > U-Air > Up-B. A fellow Mario main and I are trying to see if this can be DI'd out of, or broken in some way, because that is capable of killing extremely early off a D-throw D-Smash.

Edited to correct typo, thanks Slush.

At certain percents uair, uair, upb cannot be DI'ed out of.

 

[Nobie]

There are plenty of ways to nerf Diddy Kong, but I think it would be important not to take away his core gameplay. While a lot of people might claim that nerfing Up Air would be nice, I'm not sure if it's so bad that he has that as a kill move. I think a nerf to his grab speed and then maybe have Monkey Flip cause freefall would be enough so that it didn't seem he had the right answer for absolutely everything.

 

[Conda]

There are plenty of ways to nerf Diddy Kong, but I think it would be important not to take away his core gameplay. While a lot of people might claim that nerfing Up Air would be nice, I'm not sure if it's so bad that he has that as a kill move. I think a nerf to his grab speed and then maybe have Monkey Flip cause freefall would be enough so that it didn't seem he had the right answer for absolutely everything.

A lot of characters have a similar core gameplay to Diddy. Diddy just gets infinitely more for doing the same gameplan. He is one of the fastest, he has some of the best frame data, he can kill with almost everything, etc.

The issue lies in him being balanced like characters in past smash games - badly and without common sense 'drawbacks' in mind. Actual drawbacks. Being light weight doesn't matter with the gameplan Diddy has. Many characters are light, yet they aren't blessed with what Diddy has in return. Many characters have a below-average Up B recovery, yet they do not get what Diddy has in return. The dev team probably didn't realise he could be used as effectively as we are using him in tournaments.

 

[Smog Frog]

how to fix diddy:
make down throw a tech chase throw(think snake dthrow)
make monkey flip induce special fall so he has to use his exploitable recovery when hes not directly in front of the ledge
give uair more ending lag so it cant be chained at lower %
reduce fairs active frames so it can be airdodged

this imo fixes diddy to the point to where he wont be whined about(