Character Competitive Impressions

[Balgorxz]

better yet fight a timber happy Villager as a Timber happy Villager.
SMASH POTATO

(I'm normally not that timber happy)

do you have the tier list of SMASH POTATO?

 

[Paper Maribro]

Based on a standing training dummy, the last few lines of his tractor beam completely lack a grabbox. You can think of it as having to completely envelop them in it, I suppose.

His hand does have an initial grabbox that comes out faster than the tractor beam. Based on your own observations I conclude that it doesn't last for long and is replaced by the tractor beam's grabbox which may have a dead zone at point blank. Thus a point blank spotdodge could let you avoid and punish. I lack the means to easily test this myself though.

Yeah I know about the hand grab box but sometimes when dashing, my hand seems to clip through the opponent or something and they arent grabbed by the hand.

I swear sometimes the grabbox has beeen outside the last few lines of tractor beam. I have grabbed people from so far back before I am often surprised I landed it.

Burst moves would classify as moves that allow you to change positions so quickly that it can often override the opponent's reaction time.

So that begs the question, is Sonic a burst move? He definitely ticks the moves that allow you change positions before your opponent can react box.

 

[Luco]

So that begs the question, is Sonic a burst move? He definitely ticks the moves that allow you change positions before your opponent can react box.

Kind of, yes. Sonic will be wanting to use his superior (ground) speed in order to bypass anything you want to do in neutral. However from long range both of his spin dashes have enough start up for you at least to know he's about to do it and him running towards you is weird. Characters with good hitboxes on certain moves (sex kick Nairs and the like) will probably fare okay because pretty much everything beats spin dash when timed correctly - however at closer range this pretty much has to be predicted. That's certainly a massive strength in Sonic's favour, but considering his reward off a hit was so lackluster in Brawl and now he has combos, I would argue it's not the burst potential of Sonic that makes him so amazing by itself but the fact that it's coupled with other very good stats on that blue thing.

 

[Conda]

I love Smash but I think it's absurd to say it had very much influence in "growing esports" or whatever at all.

Until pretty recently we had some of the worst grassroots organizations out there and we also have some of the scummiest, most obnoxiously self-righteous top players of any "esport." Smash's culture grew in very unfortunate ways that are very difficult to change now. When I lived in NJ/NY no one ever played grand finals, they split like every week and everyone's attitude was like "well it makes sense because you get more money than placing second." Like, no **** sherlock, that's how competition works. I've talked about this a lot, but the group of random know-it-alls gathered around a laptop trying to manually seed players was also pretty ****ed up. I'm glad things seem to have improved a bit, but there's still such a long way to go.

I follow competitive Smash, SF4, League, a bit of DOTA. I stay tangentially involved with a few other games but I don't play them. No game's community makes me roll my eyes quite as much as Smash's does, which blows because it's my favorite game. SF4's community isn't perfect but when someone colludes they are ****ing skewered for it. In Smash, anyone complaining is met with reddit downvotes and a bunch of apologists complaining about how entitled we are or whatever. The meatriding is real in Smash and it sucks because we should be holding our top players to a higher standard of sportsmanship. You aren't their friends, it's not your job to defend them when they **** up or do something ****ty.

I feel where you're coming from, but that debacle happened quitw a while ago did it not? Has there been recent events like that in the past year or so?

 

[Thinkaman]

I love Smash but I think it's absurd to say it had very much influence in "growing esports" or whatever at all.

Until pretty recently we had some of the worst grassroots organizations out there and we also have some of the scummiest, most obnoxiously self-righteous top players of any "esport." Smash's culture grew in very unfortunate ways that are very difficult to change now. When I lived in NJ/NY no one ever played grand finals, they split like every week and everyone's attitude was like "well it makes sense because you get more money than placing second." Like, no **** sherlock, that's how competition works. I've talked about this a lot, but the group of random know-it-alls gathered around a laptop trying to manually seed players was also pretty ****ed up. I'm glad things seem to have improved a bit, but there's still such a long way to go.

I follow competitive Smash, SF4, League, a bit of DOTA. I stay tangentially involved with a few other games but I don't play them. No game's community makes me roll my eyes quite as much as Smash's does, which blows because it's my favorite game. SF4's community isn't perfect but when someone colludes they are ****ing skewered for it. In Smash, anyone complaining is met with reddit downvotes and a bunch of apologists complaining about how entitled we are or whatever. The meatriding is real in Smash and it sucks because we should be holding our top players to a higher standard of sportsmanship. You aren't their friends, it's not your job to defend them when they **** up or do something ****ty.

Also the commentators ATM for Paragon are literally the worst I've ever seen.

One literally just said "If you wanted us to commentate for real and take this seriously, you should have watched Melee."

Jesus Christ are you living in 2008? I decided to mute the stream and enjoy the great Falcon play. Drinking battery acid would have been more fun than listening to that.



Anyway, I don't want to derail character discussion any further. Care to revisit Little Mac, anyone?

I am convinced Little Mac is Totally Okay.

 

[Conda]

Also the commentators ATM for Paragon are literally the worst I've ever seen.

One literally just said "If you wanted us to commentate for real and take this seriously, you should have watched Melee."

Jesus Christ are you living in 2008? I decided to mute the stream and enjoy the great Falcon play. Drinking battery acid would have been more fun than listening to that.

Yeah the chat was in an uproar, and I checked back a few times and the chat seemed to consistently be commenting on the commentary's quality throughout. I think this is an alright thing, as it shows viewers are beginning to be more critical of the stream's quality. They're valuing higher-quality content now, which is creating a competitiveness in Smash content production now. People want to have a good commentator working at tournaments (we're excited about the Apex top 8 commentators being announced, for example), and we want the stream to be managed and produced smoothly and professionally.

That's a good sign, as it shows we're taking ourselves more seriously and value those who practice and take their hosting/organizing/commentating/streaming of Smash more professionally.

 

[Charls]

The organization for the Paragon sm4sh tournament is just painful to watch. So much empty space between matches. And the commentators... They were probably looking at one of the most technical Captain Falcons we've ever seen and they were just... There. Making racial jabs and barely commentating on what actually happened at all bar a few knees and that one Kirby hammer.
--------------------
Little Mac is a bit funny imo. Started out as one of the biggest threats in the game and is now considered by most as either newbie bait or strictly a counter pick character. The plethora of applications different techs can offer to his already fantastic ground game may change common perceptions on him, although not drastically I presume.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Also the commentators ATM for Paragon are literally the worst I've ever seen.

One literally just said "If you wanted us to commentate for real and take this seriously, you should have watched Melee."

Jesus Christ are you living in 2008?

I'm honestly not surprised tbh.

 

[Thinkaman]

Little Mac is a bit funny imo. Started out as one of the biggest threats in the game and is now considered by most as newbie bait or strictly a counter pick character. The plethora of applications different techs can offer to his already fantastic ground game may change common perceptions on him, althought not drastically I presume.

This is a good summation of where we are at.

I've had a lot of people tell me with smug assertiveness that Little Mac is awful, but I'm still cleaning up with him in St. Louis.

Stage matters a lot to him. Smashville and Battlefield offers obvious challenges with non-obvious (but real) solutions. I am actually starting to think BF might be better than Smashville for him, especially against Rosalina. (Who can uniquely cover the entire platform on Smashville)

I used to think that customs didn't matter much to Little Mac, but I'm having a change of heart. I used to see ever Little Mac matchup as a puzzle for the enemy, but it's really the opposite.

 

[Antonykun]

This is a good summation of where we are at.

I've had a lot of people tell me with smug assertiveness that Little Mac is awful, but I'm still cleaning up with him in St. Louis.

Stage matters a lot to him. Smashville and Battlefield offers obvious challenges with non-obvious (but real) solutions. I am actually starting to think BF might be better than Smashville for him, especially against Rosalina. (Who can uniquely cover the entire platform on Smashville)

I used to think that customs didn't matter much to Little Mac, but I'm having a change of heart. I used to see ever Little Mac matchup as a puzzle for the enemy, but it's really the opposite.

Like please share your solutions to the (second ) most fun charater in smash 4

 

[Conda]

Not sure if you guys are noticing, but nearly all of the best players now have a pocket top tier. Keitaro just switched out of Falco after losing a Falco ditto, and he switched to Diddy. He won the set.
Nairo does this with ZSS, when Robin/DPit aren't cutting it.

I'm not saying this is bad, they're playing to win. It's good for competition. However, it is telling of the 'dependable performance level' that certain top tiers offer, which the rest of the cast doesn't offer.

There are a few players at the top that stick to their main, but we are seeing a clear 'I'd rather play as this character if I'm really trying to not lose' tier developing.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Any thoughts on Bowser? Before yesterday I kinda thought he was meh, but I fought a Bowser main on Smashladder and got JV 3'd. Now I'm no pro, but (captain falcon voice) COME AWHN XD
He's super mobile on the ground but his frame data is average as far as I know. He can chase you deep offstage with fairs sometimes, and I think his grab is either really awesome or my opponent was really good at reading me (most likely the latter). But it's like, I don't think he has a lot of room for error. Given his size and weight he isn't just combo food... he's a 7-course banquet of combo'd with gimp for desert. But if you've got skill, I think old King Koopa has a shot at ending up mid-high tier.

 

[Ffamran]

Not sure if you guys are noticing, but nearly all of the best players now have a pocket top tier. Keitaro just switched out of Falco after losing a Falco ditto, and he switched to Diddy. He won the set.
Nairo does this with ZSS, when Robin/DPit aren't cutting it.

There are a few players at the top that stick to their main, but we are seeing a clear 'I'd rather play as this character if I'm really trying to not lose' tier developing.

Yeah, that happened once with Logic using Villager before switching to Diddy and he fought Chillin's Mega Man recently. A while back, Keitaro and someone played on the mom stage for funsies or something and he had to play as Falco. After that, he switched to Diddy.

Pocket mains are like trump cards except more so it seems to be the top tier characters thing. I don't know about anyone who picks a lesser known character as a pocket. It would in theory be a good idea since say, everyone knows more or less how Captain Falcon works, but what if someone's trump card was Mii Swordfighter? Do you know how insane that would be? What do you do? If that person's that good with MS, then the opponent might be screwed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is a good summation of where we are at.

I've had a lot of people tell me with smug assertiveness that Little Mac is awful, but I'm still cleaning up with him in St. Louis.

Stage matters a lot to him. Smashville and Battlefield offers obvious challenges with non-obvious (but real) solutions. I am actually starting to think BF might be better than Smashville for him, especially against Rosalina. (Who can uniquely cover the entire platform on Smashville)

I used to think that customs didn't matter much to Little Mac, but I'm having a change of heart. I used to see ever Little Mac matchup as a puzzle for the enemy, but it's really the opposite.

I think he definitely has some notable favorable matchups (Little Mac vs Luigi is like one of the easiest matchups ever for him imo), but the majority of the cast beats him slightly because THAT. RECOVERY.

Also Guard Breaker is amazing. Dash Counter is situational but also very valuable (FOR RECOVERY, mind you). Not sure what to think about his Neutral B and Up-B customs yet, the defaults seem good enough for the most part.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not sure if you guys are noticing, but nearly all of the best players now have a pocket top tier. Keitaro just switched out of Falco after losing a Falco ditto, and he switched to Diddy. He won the set.
Nairo does this with ZSS, when Robin/DPit aren't cutting it.

I'm not saying this is bad, they're playing to win. It's good for competition. However, it is telling of the 'dependable performance level' that certain top tiers offer, which the rest of the cast doesn't offer.

There are a few players at the top that stick to their main, but we are seeing a clear 'I'd rather play as this character if I'm really trying to not lose' tier developing.

Is this your first competitive game?

You sound very naive. Not a bad thing of course, but the attitude of using a real character when **** gets real is not a new concept at all.

I just took second at a local. When I played weak players I used Ike, Little Mac and Marth. When I fought against my buddy Atomsk (very strong Dedede from Brawl era) I went Sheik.

 

[HeroMystic]

When playing to win, you have to realize the limitations of your character. You can believe as much as you want that your character won't hold you back but they do.

Diddy, Shiek, ZSS, and Sonic are going to be the most used characters because of this fact. Only diehard specialists like myself will try to make a point.

 

[HeoandReo]

Any thoughts on Bowser? Before yesterday I kinda thought he was meh, but I fought a Bowser main on Smashladder and got JV 3'd. Now I'm no pro, but (captain falcon voice) COME AWHN XD
He's super mobile on the ground but his frame data is average as far as I know. He can chase you deep offstage with fairs sometimes, and I think his grab is either really awesome or my opponent was really good at reading me (most likely the latter). But it's like, I don't think he has a lot of room for error. Given his size and weight he isn't just combo food... he's a 7-course banquet of combo'd with gimp for desert. But if you've got skill, I think old King Koopa has a shot at ending up mid-high tier.

If Bowser was the size he was in Melee or Brawl and there were no other changes to his current kit, he'd be high or top no questions asked.

As is, his incredible fatness compared to the rest of the cast or even other Smash games automatically prevents him from being viable. Every weakness that he has is compounded by the fact that he's even bigger than ever before. He can be hit by anything because he's a big target. He can be comboed because he's a big target. He can be gimped low because he's a big target. Personally I don't think he has this problem as much in earlier games because the size difference was smaller, but either way life is hard in Smash if you're big.

However, I would say that another reason why he's so susceptible to combos is also because he doesn't have any good options to escape them. You can see dair and Bowser Bomb coming a mile away and prepare for them accordingly. Nair is laggy if it lands on the ground and doesn't really send his opponent away for safety. His only decent option is fast fall fire breath or going on the ledge and even then, his slow air speed (and his fatness) means that this isn't even a guarantee.

In addition to this, I feel that Bowser is the most fundamental heavyweight in that he doesn't really have much that sticks out compared to stuff like ROB's zoning capabilities, Ike and DK's range and attack speed, DDD's disjoint and jumps, Ganondorf's power on absolutely everything or even Charizard's somewhat gimmicky super armour at will. (Bowser has Tough Guy which is kinda like super armour, but the damage it covers is so hilariously low he really might as well not have any) Out of these, Bowser kind of feels to me in this iteration like a bigger Ganondorf. His ground normals are pretty good, since they come out fast and do good damage, but his entire kit is really risky otherwise.

Personally I think he'd be low part of mid or high part of low but maybe other people are more generous.

 

[Conda]

Is this your first competitive game?

You sound very naive. Not a bad thing of course

 

[Kofu]

This is convenient, I wanted to talk about Little Mac and he's now the topic of discussion! A2ZOMG brings up a discussion point that I wanted to ask about: who does Little Mac beat? I could see him doing well against Luigi considering the latter's terrible movement options and inability to regain footing, but if Luigi gets just one string on Little Mac I have a hard time seeing the latter recovering (both the match and from offstage, they're connected for him).

Little Mac basically has the ground game of a heavy but without their cumbersome frames. He's also the third fastest runner barring buffs which counts for something (though IIRC he commits to a dash harder than any other character). His lack of an aerial game holds him back significantly because he can't (usually) continue the fight/chase opponents into the air to continue pressuring them (though the "gimp master" video series shows he can do it). He does have excellent anti-air options in USmash and Rising Uppercut but he'd like to have more. I basically agree with AA that if his UAir was a bit better and his jumps (maybe just his first jump) went a little higher he'd feel more complete because then he wouldn't get shut down by his opponent simply jumping on a high platform.

Oh, his customs:

• Flaming Straight Lunge is pretty neat because it charges up faster, giving it a very niche recovery aid usage, and because it hits more than once which pressures shields better than the default. Stunning Straight Lunge would be great it the stun effect was in place throughout the attack and not just the fully-charged attack (where the end lag is so bad you can't capitalize off it). That might be a bit too strong, though. Does either variant impact KO Punch at all?
• Grounding Blow is fun but I can't see it doing more than aiding as a damage racker or KO Punch setup (which is a pretty big deal tbh). Does it meteor airborne targets? Guard Breaker is a brutally powerful option but its lack of speed makes it less effective at retaliating against projectiles compared to the default (I think, I don't remember if it has super armor).
• Both Up-B variants are probably usable. Tornado Uppercut goes farther and is safer but he loses one of his anti-air options. Up-B 3 (can't remember the name offhand) travels even less distance but is hilariously powerful. Not that Little Mac NEEDS more power, really, but a solid read with that against someone in the air would end a match very quickly.
• Not a big fan of either Counter custom but I've heard good things about them. To wit, that Compact Counter is really versatile and gives Little Mac more openings and that Dash Counter helps him recover against projectiles.

Thinking about it, if Little Mac didn't have the KO Punch, he'd be really crappy because there'd be no way to turn a match around if he lost a stock early to being gimped.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

When playing to win, you have to realize the limitations of your character. You can believe as much as you want that your character won't hold you back but they do.

Diddy, Shiek, ZSS, and Sonic are going to be the most used characters because of this fact. Only diehard specialists like myself will try to make a point.

first thing one has to do is accept this then skys the limit. i main pit and samus and trying to put as much work with them as possible.
also i really suck with using shiek and diddy and sonic, iv spent expensive time with them but honestly i can never find myself the motivation to use a character i dont like. when i play shiek i just dont "click" and i think this is a big factor for why some players just choose characters like dk, and ganon. props to dkwill and ray kalm.

 

[Antonykun]

I really have a hard time using ZSS but I really want to try her especially because her play style reminds me of Ino in Naruto Clash 2 (Still love that game) I heard she specializes on traps but idk any (strange cuz ik like a million Villager traps)

 

[thehard]

Also the commentators ATM for Paragon are literally the worst I've ever seen.

One literally just said "If you wanted us to commentate for real and take this seriously, you should have watched Melee."

Jesus Christ are you living in 2008? I decided to mute the stream and enjoy the great Falcon play. Drinking battery acid would have been more fun than listening to that.



Anyway, I don't want to derail character discussion any further. Care to revisit Little Mac, anyone?

I am convinced Little Mac is Totally Okay.

The passive-aggressive "we all know melee is the better competitive game" attitude never fails to get my goat. Especially when those people can never properly define what competitive means (advanced techs right??) Nothing worse than downplaying the work and love put into another scene FROM THE SAME GAME SERIES. I would rather be told straight up "**** Sm4sh" than the sort of condescending attitude you mostly see on r/smashbros. Both are childish but the latter is far more subtle and damaging to the community.

I flip-flop on Mac, really. You tend to forget he has all that raw power + super armor/i-frames + excellent frame data when he flaps around off-stage. This match was encouraging though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpYslChhKoA

KO Punch is a very real threat and makes your opponent play predictably.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think he definitely has some notable favorable matchups (Little Mac vs Luigi is like one of the easiest matchups ever for him imo), but the majority of the cast beats him slightly because THAT. RECOVERY.

Also Guard Breaker is amazing. Dash Counter is situational but also very valuable (FOR RECOVERY, mind you). Not sure what to think about his Neutral B and Up-B customs yet, the defaults seem good enough for the most part.

Heh, I wish I could show you graphs charting over time how I felt about each one of Little Mac's customs on a scale 1-10. They'd all be roller coasters.

For awhile I was pretty sure Guard Breaker was amazing, but now I think it's REALLY match-up dependent. It's just too slow, and people just have to spot-dodge -> punish.

Grounding Blow on the other hand I originally dismissed entirely. Atm I think it might be the best option, though there are still matchups where default side-b is still too critical as a long-range anti-ground-projectile tool.

But Grounding Blow has really, really unexpectedly good recovery power. You can actually use it as a faster, higher-reward ledge-attack! In neutral it's a closer-range-but-more-robust anti-projectile. Most critically, it covers high platforms from below well! However, the minimum jump height is equal to the Smashville platform...

Reward:

• Ground? At low-%s just up-b, at high-%s you get KO Punch or a free smash of your choice. If you do a downward f-smash, you still get the rewarding chase at high %s.
• Aerial? They get a frame advantage against you and take 9%. At low %s they are on the ground, at high %s is ground or air depending on if they tech it. If they tried air dodging and thus missed the tech and don't immediately counter-attack with a nair, Little Mac can punish the bounce--but don't count on this.
• Off-stage? Enjoy the game's most inane-but-highly-plausible suicide spike!

Little Mac's Counters are all mostly useless except as recovery. You can do Compact for the faster recovery, or Dash for superior distance.

Keep in mind that a Counter that doesn't activate until frame 5 makes it actually one of Little Mac's slowest option on the ground! Little Mac's other options are far less risk for usually higher reward. Slip Counter isn't terribly strong, and Dash Counter is actually blockable by many spammable projectile cases, such as Villager fair/bair.

Default up-b almost has to be the best (the better I get at Little Mac, the more crucial offensive up-b is), but Rising Smash is such a cruel temptress of what could be. It kills Villager off the top platform of Battlefield at 38%, and has... hypothetical synergy with Grounding Blow if you can time the release.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If Bowser was the size he was in Melee or Brawl and there were no other changes to his current kit, he'd be high or top no questions asked.

As is, his incredible fatness compared to the rest of the cast or even other Smash games automatically prevents him from being viable. Every weakness that he has is compounded by the fact that he's even bigger than ever before. He can be hit by anything because he's a big target. He can be comboed because he's a big target. He can be gimped low because he's a big target. Personally I don't think he has this problem as much in earlier games because the size difference was smaller, but either way life is hard in Smash if you're big.

However, I would say that another reason why he's so susceptible to combos is also because he doesn't have any good options to escape them. You can see dair and Bowser Bomb coming a mile away and prepare for them accordingly. Nair is laggy if it lands on the ground and doesn't really send his opponent away for safety. His only decent option is fast fall fire breath or going on the ledge and even then, his slow air speed (and his fatness) means that this isn't even a guarantee.

In addition to this, I feel that Bowser is the most fundamental heavyweight in that he doesn't really have much that sticks out compared to stuff like ROB's zoning capabilities, Ike and DK's range and attack speed, DDD's disjoint and jumps, Ganondorf's power on absolutely everything or even Charizard's somewhat gimmicky super armour at will. (Bowser has Tough Guy which is kinda like super armour, but the damage it covers is so hilariously low he really might as well not have any) Out of these, Bowser kind of feels to me in this iteration like a bigger Ganondorf. His ground normals are pretty good, since they come out fast and do good damage, but his entire kit is really risky otherwise.

Personally I think he'd be low part of mid or high part of low but maybe other people are more generous.

one cant be generous when placing someone on a tier list since that spot could always be someone elses.

second ur correct about bowsers size being a weakness. but bowsers as a character has alot of defensive options.
Bowsers dair is actually usefull for getting out of combo strings, no experienced bowser player will ever throw out a dair when ur waiting for it only when ur under them for the chase.
ontop of bowser grab options being very robust for utilty make shileding a nightmare. bowsers jab is one of the best in the game. d tilt is effective edge guard and poke.
Freaking goddly out of shield up b.
and fire breath actually great for approach..

bowser is way more functional than ur making him to be.

 

[Locke 06]

How does Mac attack someone who camps on platforms where he can't shark with his ground moves?

That video was nice, but if you're only playing to win, why would you ever go down to the base platform of BF with a lead? It's too much of an issue for me to take Mac seriously as a solo character. Pocket/secondary, yes, he can be very dangerous especially to ground & grab based characters. However when someone decides to sit on a platform where all of those ground moves mean next to nothing, what happens?

 

[Ffamran]

He can't? Can Little Mac's Up Smash, angled-up Side Smash, and Utilt reach? Then there's always the unsafe Rising Uppercut.

 

[Thinkaman]

He can't? Can Little Mac's Up Smash, angled-up Side Smash, and Utilt reach? Then there's always the unsafe Rising Uppercut.

I'm fairly sure he's talking only about the top platform of BF.

Little Mac's u-smash can reach BF lower platforms, but no other moves can. Also, u-smash cannot reach the platform on Smashville, which is an issue.

How does Mac attack someone who camps on platforms where he can't shark with his ground moves?

That video was nice, but if you're only playing to win, why would you ever go down to the base platform of BF with a lead? It's too much of an issue for me to take Mac seriously as a solo character. Pocket/secondary, yes, he can be very dangerous especially to ground & grab based characters. However when someone decides to sit on a platform where all of those ground moves mean next to nothing, what happens?

Little Mac's FH is exactly the height of BF's platforms, so he can move between them very efficiently as well as buffer into sliding/landing KO Punch quite well. His sharking normal aerials do non-trivial damage; side-b is also quite good and reasonably safe on Battlefield due to the layout. And finally, he the unsafe but high-reward up-b.

Throwing out defensive attacks on the platform won't stop mac from sharking, and his limited options can deal with spot-dodges and rolls. You can't shield forever, and if you jump, Little Mac takes the platform. (And if you naturally go down to another one, Little Mac can chase--and he can do way more going down than up.)

Smashville is a little simplier but ultimately harder. Little Mac can take the platform easily enough in most matchups, but he has to use his double jump to get there.

Town & City resets to flat during transitions. Lylat has no issues.

 

[TriTails]

I think he definitely has some notable favorable matchups (Little Mac vs Luigi is like one of the easiest matchups ever for him imo)

What.

LM is probably one of Luigi's easiest MU, IMO.

He has no answer to Fireballs, easy to combo, light, almost non existant air game and offstage game, and too easy to edgeguard that it's not even funny.

Luigi doesn't approach here. He forces LM to approach. I don't respect his approaches at all, you can either spotdodge and maybe even shield grab. You can Slap Chaingrab him pretty easy, and Luigi dominates him in the air. I have no idea what LM beats Luigi in except for speed, and that can be challenged with Nado. And he can't really beat Luigi up close unless he got through his Fireballs. And U-smash juggle? Green Missile to the ledge and grab it.

Heck, I think you can trade Nado with Rising Uppercut and soft spike him, and that basically means death. Nado is pretty important here, as it can catch LM with surprise, and we all know Luigi's Fireballs are hard to get around if used properly, even with ridiculous dash speed. LM can't really gimp him with D-smash either, he'll just Nado up high.

 

[Thinkaman]

He has no answer to Fireballs

...what?

Side-b is a harsh, definitive answer to Fireball. He can also just f-tilt or jab through them like they weren't there. He can even min-charge neutral-b through them (before Luigi can shield), but this option is inferior to the others?

 

[Ffamran]

Oh yeah, I remember people saying Little Mac's Jab eats projectiles. Didn't that one match of Izaw as Link have Captain Falcon jab Link's Gale Boomerang away?

 

[A2ZOMG]

...what?

Side-b is a harsh, definitive answer to Fireball. He can also just f-tilt or jab through them like they weren't there. He can even min-charge neutral-b through them (before Luigi can shield), but this option is inferior to the others?

Yeah like, my experience playing LM vs Luigi is I just abuse 3 frame F-tilt and old MetaKnight D-smash all day, and Luigi can't really do a thing about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh yeah, I remember people saying Little Mac's Jab eats projectiles. Didn't that one match of Izaw as Link have Captain Falcon jab Link's Gale Boomerang away?

Basically any hitbox can clash with (cancel) non-transcendent projectile hitboxes within 8%. (At least I think it's 8?)

Little Mac jab and f-tilt are just especially good at this, given their absurd parameters. They are very fast and safe.

Yeah like, my experience playing LM vs Luigi is I just abuse 3 frame F-tilt and old MetaKnight D-smash all day, and Luigi can't really do a thing about it.

I mean, what's he going to do? Spot dodge Little Mac jabs? Shield and slide halfway across the stage, before he can try to punish with his legendary Luigi dash attack?

 

[mimgrim]

If Bowser was the size he was in Melee or Brawl and there were no other changes to his current kit, he'd be high or top no questions asked.

Brawl Bowser is ****ing huge and I am semi-confident that Smash 4 Bowser isn't that much bigger then Brawl Bowser (like I'm pretty sure he is taller due to change in standing animation but that change also made him not as wide in Brawl).

Now I need to find a comparison size between the 2.

Almost every Melee character is shorter then their Brawl, or Smash 4, counter-part. Meleedorf is tiny compared to Brawldorf. Melee Falco would be like Ness height in Brawl or Smash 4.

 

[TriTails]

I mean, what's he going to do? Spot dodge Little Mac jabs? Shield and slide halfway across the stage, before he can try to punish with his legendary Luigi dash attack?

Nado from above?

 

[Kofu]

I mean, what's he going to do? Spot dodge Little Mac jabs? Shield and slide halfway across the stage, before he can try to punish with his legendary Luigi dash attack?

Hey, don't diss Luigi's dash attack! It was buffed from Brawl. It's not punishable on hit anymore (well, you can't freely shield the last hit for a punish, anyway).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thinking about it, if Little Mac didn't have the KO Punch, he'd be really crappy because there'd be no way to turn a match around if he lost a stock early to being gimped.

I'm gonna be honest, the KO punch is a terrible comeback mechanic. It's better for sealing a game that is already in your favor.

 

[Kofu]

I'm gonna be honest, the KO punch is a terrible comeback mechanic. It's better for sealing a game that is already in your favor.

I don't disagree, but it certainly feels like an important part of Mac's game, mainly because of the threat it brings. It's meant to be a comeback mechanic but given how volatile it is it usually doesn't work that way.

 

[Locke 06]

Little Mac's FH is exactly the height of BF's platforms, so he can move between them very efficiently as well as buffer into sliding/landing KO Punch quite well. His sharking normal aerials do non-trivial damage; side-b is also quite good and reasonably safe on Battlefield due to the layout. And finally, he the unsafe but high-reward up-b.

Throwing out defensive attacks on the platform won't stop mac from sharking, and his limited options can deal with spot-dodges and rolls. You can't shield forever, and if you jump, Little Mac takes the platform. (And if you naturally go down to another one, Little Mac can chase--and he can do way more going down than up.)

Smashville is a little simplier but ultimately harder. Little Mac can take the platform easily enough in most matchups, but he has to use his double jump to get there.

Town & City resets to flat during transitions. Lylat has no issues.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-231#post-18269020

Edit: I should probably explain what that is instead of just posting a link. I wrote this up a while ago as a, "I don't see how solo Mac can do well."

 

[Thinkaman]

Nado from above?

This is blockable on reaction and punishable with a smash of little mac's choice. It's not a valid (counter-)approach.

Little Mac is going to do the same thing he does (or wants to do) in every matchup: Walk forward and jab/f-tilt whenever there is something in his way. If they jump, block as applicable until gravity does its thing and the threat passes.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-231#post-18269020

Most drive-by analysis fixates on Little Mac trying to punish them with his crappy aerials. This is natural, as it's what every other character in the game ought to do in that situation. But it's Little Mac's third, last-ditch strategy.

His number 2 preferred strategy is doing an up-b. Obviously this has to be a solid read, but it's high reward.

But his number 1 preferred strategy, the thing he actually would prefer to do, is get on the platform. It's surprisingly hard to stop someone from landing on even a small platform with you, without committing to anything that could be punished with a side-b or up-b.

Most defensive actions, including jumping, allow Little Mac onto the platform.

I think Kongo Jungle is the only stage this matters little on. If I only played Little Mac, I'd ban Kongo Jungle and Duck Hunt.

But people don't have to play one character, and if me being able to play Little Mac well forces you to not pick FD, that may be a valuable option for me. Unless you happen to play a character who loves LM's worst stages, it's a cost to pick them.

 

[TriTails]

And from my experience, rolls cancel out sliding. You can just shield, wait for the shield stun is gone, roll fowards.

And I don't think Luigi slides across the freaking stage when he's get hit. Yeah, he slides, but not that far I think. Unless it's fully charged smash, he won't slide that far..... if memory doesn't fail me.

This is blockable on reaction and punishable with a smash of little mac's choice. It's not a valid (counter-)approach.

Little Mac is going to do the same thing he does (or wants to do) in every matchup: Walk forward and jab/f-tilt whenever there is something in his way. If they jump, block as applicable until gravity does its thing and the threat passes.

If he walks and spam F-tilt, he's asking for a running Nado to the end lag. Yeah, they may clash, but Nado is freaking fast by itself.