Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

Metaknight can triple Uair into shuttle loop off a dash attack and kill sub 60% for doing it. Zss doesnt have a monopoly on it.

 

[Conda]

Metaknight can triple Uair into shuttle loop off a dash attack and kill sub 60% for doing it. Zss doesnt have a monopoly on it.

Can he set it up the way ZSS can, and pressure opponents into the disadvantageous positions that allow flexible unpredictable use of this combo? I don't believe so, and that's very important.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nothing can save us from the invasion of the Spider Monkeys, huh? I guess our only hope is a patch that's released for when Mewtwo comes out or something, IDK.

I don't understand how Diddy even turned out this way, he's the only one that really sticks out to me as silly as he is. Everyone else has some semblance of things even if they're small but Diddy is like, wow.

 

[Conda]

Started editing a post so much that it was nothing like my initial post haha. Posting it here as a new one instead.

ZeRo realised what Diddy's potential was, and understood that he could get more out of him when playing him optimally versus other characters. He spoke about how he felt about the gap between Diddy and the other characters and how potentially broken he is, yet was berated unfairly for it. But he's taking advantage of it now and showing us what's up, as he should. It doesn't matter what we debate here - the top players know what's up with Diddy and are doing things with him you can't really do with other characters.

I'm also not just talking about 'Diddy'. I'm talking about optimally played Diddys, of which ZeRo is a prime example. Seeing his Diddy, you just go down a checklist of characters that would be unviable once everyone starts playing like that in the future. This is a real thing, and we cannot continue believing that we'll keep seeing low tier heroes in tournaments successfully facing off against Diddys (and other characters) that are played this way.


Those who get a kick out of telling people "Diddy/Sonic/ZSS/etc ain't a big deal" need to realise that ZeRo has learned to use Diddy in a way that allowed him to 2-stock and 2-0 set every top-level player last night. More of us will learn how to use him this way in the future, which will have a huge impact on the tournament scene. What I'm saying is - expect MORE Diddys in the future.

It's clear that Pit/Marth/Mario/etc played at this level will be nowhere near as effective as someone like Diddy. He get more out of top-level utilization than the majority of other characters, which is why he's so heavily used and why ZeRo uses him. You could play Toon Link as excellently as you play Diddy, but it doesn't mean you'll do as well - you won't get the same reward, won't have the same options, and so forth.

Watching any tournaments now, we now know this - no matter how good you think the players are and how high a level they may be at, ZeRo's optimally-played Diddy could likely 2-stock them. If he was there, whoever wins the tournament likely wouldn't have won. Having a huge threat like that is a big deal, and I'm happy ZeRo is showing us the future of what's possible in Smash, because everyone else needs to catch up and get to his level asap.

There's so much more going on with Diddy that can be taken advantage of in the hands of a player like ZeRo. Not the case with other characters, not in this way. The meta currently revolves around dealing with speedsters who cannot be punished nearly as hard as THEY can punish YOU. That's an issue/dynamic that is going to become more and more prominent in the metagame. I do not believe all characters will be tournament viable in the future because of this.

That's the point of a characters being top tier or not - played optimally, how far can they go?

We've seen this happen in other games, it shouldn't be a surprise. Some players are better at taking advantage of the advantages certain characters offer, and this can lead to a real metagame shift. The days of thinking the cast is balanced and 'anyone could win a national' is over. If a Diddy is around that plays as well as ZeRo, everyone else will get 2 stocked unless they play to the meta. If they continue playing the way they are playing, they will not succeed.

Where the metagame is going NOW is - what other characters, played optimally, can go toe-to-toe with an optimally played Diddy?

THAT list of characters is sure to be tiny, and therein lies Smash 4's tournament climate for the years to come.

 

[Sinister Slush]

While of course a patch is needed to put Mewtwo in, does anyone even have confirmation that the rest of the game might get fixes here or there?
Maybe bowser Jr. teleporting fix as well with it.

 

[Conda]

does anyone even have confirmation that the rest of the game might get fixes here or there?

You know we don't and likely never will.

 

[TTTTTsd]

While of course a patch is needed to put Mewtwo in, does anyone even have confirmation that the rest of the game might get fixes here or there?
Maybe bowser Jr. teleporting fix as well with it.

There's no confirmation on it although I'd LIKE IT to be the case because clearly some things gotta be changed or else welp ggs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's Nintendo so if anything changes we'll just go the next week or two trying to find all the tidbits anyways since of course no patch notes like league does.

Off that topic, both in the hour of friendlies before top 8 and this previous match with nick riddle and manny this gives me two things in mind.

ZSS combo is dumb when she pulls it off, it steals wins.
The fastest character in the game somehow slows matches to a crawl even when given so many kill moves now compared to brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sonic is an inversion of everything you'd think he'd be. He's incredibly fast but then the game just keels to a halt because of it.

I think it's actually REALLY funny but also really bad.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Mhm. People want to say SONIC is too fast. ZSS is almost as fast and way more slippery, has better frame data and has significantly more solid kill setups than Sonic. I don't really see why people say she's worse than Sonic.

 

[Conda]

Mhm. People want to say SONIC is too fast. ZSS is almost as fast and way more slippery, has better frame data and has significantly more solid kill setups than Sonic. I don't really see why people say she's worse than Sonic.

When people say 'Sonic is fast', they're talking about more than run speed. There's a lot going on with high level Sonic play. Again, the top tier characters are not one dimensional in their strengths guys.

 

[David Viran]

I think that overall zss has the best mobility with the most consistent ground and air speed and wave bounces with paralyzer and edge canceling with down b which isn't used too much yet.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I know how Sonic works. lol I'm just saying. People complain about Sonic's speed but I don't see ZSS's evasion and assaults talked about nearly as much when it's better than Sonic's imo. I probably go on reddit too much. Every rant thread is like 200 people being salty about Sonic. :C

GOD Chozox just does Samus right. Great use of screw attack as a shoryu, great reads. Uses missiles brilliantly. Great use of charge shot, excellent ftilt spacing. Most fun player to watch of the day. People going to admit Samus is underrated?

Edit: And down he goes! Still great play. Looking forward to more in the future.

 

[NairWizard]

I expected people to overreact to Zero's victory.

There is a Fox, a Dark Pit/ZSS, a Mario, a Sheik, and a Pikachu also in Top 5 with Zero. We are not being overrun by Diddy. Diddy is just easy to play and has obvious strengths, and Zero made good use of those strengths. Zero won so easily not because of Diddy, but because he's just way better than everyone else, and the character he happens to use is Diddy (admittedly a strong choice).

Anyone who tried to Diddy ditto Zero in this tournament got destroyed, because Zero is just that much better. It's not a case of Diddy played optimally > anyone else played optimally; it's a case of [strong character] played optimally > anyone else played suboptimally.

Instead of talking about how Diddy should be nerfed, you should be talking about what your character struggles with against Diddy and how you can fix that (some are not fixable and have bad MUs, but many characters do just fine, lose only by a little, or even win).

 

[warionumbah2]

Can he set it up the way ZSS can, and pressure opponents into the disadvantageous positions that allow flexible unpredictable use of this combo? I don't believe so, and that's very important.

After the 2nd Uair you can give your opponent a chance to escape another Uair, if they air dodge they basically put themselves in a more disadvantageous state since they'll fall right into Tornado that deals more damage than shuttle loop and can kill up top with a little rage.

Or bait an air dodge and punish it with Nair putting them in an even worse position as they'll be off stage. Then more advantages for MK follow after.

He can set this situation from down throw,dtilt to dash attack/grab,dash attack and utilt i think.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

my man chozox showing people samus can put in work. but totally chocked on his last match.
the nervous nelly.

 

[mimgrim]

The internet (especially casuals and reddit) overrate ZSS so much. She's good for sure but some of this whining is ridiculous.

I've been claiming she's been overrated since the 3DS version first came out. >_>

That said, I can still see her being top 10. But I'm still not convinced on top 5 (and if top 5 then probably at 5th).

Still really hate fighting against her though.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Started editing a post so much that it was nothing like my initial post haha. Posting it here as a new one instead.

ZeRo realised what Diddy's potential was, and understood that he could get more out of him when playing him optimally versus other characters. He spoke about how he felt about the gap between Diddy and the other characters and how potentially broken he is, yet was berated unfairly for it. But he's taking advantage of it now and showing us what's up, as he should.

I'm also not just talking about 'Diddy'. I'm talking about optimally played Diddys, of which ZeRo is a prime example. Seeing his Diddy, you just go down a checklist of characters that would be unviable once everyone starts playing like that in the future. This is a real thing, and we cannot continue believing that we'll keep seeing low tier heroes in tournaments successfully facing off against Diddys (and other characters) that are played this way.


Those who get a kick out of telling people "Diddy/Sonic/ZSS/etc ain't a big deal" need to realise that ZeRo has learned to use Diddy in a way that allowed him to 2-stock and 2-0 set every top-level player last night. More of us will learn how to use him this way in the future, which will have a huge impact on the tournament scene. What I'm saying is - expect MORE Diddys in the future.

It's clear that Pit/Marth/Mario/etc played at this level will be nowhere near as effective as someone like Diddy. He get more out of top-level utilization than the majority of other characters, which is why he's so heavily used and why ZeRo uses him. You could play Toon Link as excellently as you play Diddy, but it doesn't mean you'll do as well - you won't get the same reward, won't have the same options, and so forth.

Watching any tournaments now, we now know this - no matter how good you think the players are and how high a level they may be at, ZeRo's optimally-played Diddy could likely 2-stock them. If he was there, whoever wins the tournament likely wouldn't have won. Having a huge threat like that is a big deal, and I'm happy ZeRo is showing us the future of what's possible in Smash, because everyone else needs to catch up and get to his level asap.

There's so much more going on with Diddy that can be taken advantage of in the hands of a player like ZeRo. Not the case with other characters, not in this way. The meta currently revolves around dealing with speedsters who cannot be punished nearly as hard as THEY can punish YOU. That's an issue/dynamic that is going to become more and more prominent in the metagame. I do not believe all characters will be tournament viable in the future because of this.

That's the point of a characters being top tier or not - played optimally, how far can they go?

We've seen this happen in other games, it shouldn't be a surprise. Some players are better at taking advantage of the advantages certain characters offer, and this can lead to a real metagame shift. The days of thinking the cast is balanced and 'anyone could win a national' is over. If a Diddy is around that plays as well as ZeRo, everyone else will get 2 stocked unless they play to the meta. If they continue playing the way they are playing, they will not succeed.

Where the metagame is going NOW is - what other characters, played optimally, can go toe-to-toe with an optimally played Diddy?

THAT list of characters is sure to be tiny, and therein lies Smash 4's tournament climate for the years to come.

we have not seen any optimally played other characters yet. so this is really more of a wait and see.

 

[Conda]

I know how Sonic works. lol I'm just saying. People complain about Sonic's speed but I don't see ZSS's evasion and assaults talked about nearly as much when it's better than Sonic's imo. I probably go on reddit too much. Every rant thread is like 200 people being salty about Sonic. :C

GOD Chozox just does Samus right. Great use of screw attack as a shoryu, great reads. Uses missiles brilliantly. Great use of charge shot, excellent ftilt spacing. Most fun player to watch of the day. People going to admit Samus is underrated?

Edit: And down he goes! Still great play. Looking forward to more in the future.

His Samus wasn't played at the level she could be played at, still a lot of room for improvement. Really solid play though, good use of trickery. A lot of mistakes (constant screw attack whiffs -> punishes, SDs, etc), but still an even match against his opponent Player 1 in his final set in Loser's Finals. There's a lot he could've done better with Samus, but it was still refreshing to see Samus in a tournament.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Some more experience and it will be one scary Samus.

I have to say I think I have severely underestimated Olimar in this game. Honestly not sure if it's just the matchup here though. What's Diddy Olimar like?

Edit: Like...I know he got kinda trashed but there were definitely moments of just dominating ground play that I haven't really seen since this game dropped. I also don't watch Olimars because of the lack of rep but still.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

His Samus wasn't played at the level she could be played at, still a lot of room for improvement. Really solid play though, good use of trickery. A lot of mistakes (constant screw attack whiffs -> punishes, SDs, etc), but still an even match against his opponent Player 1 in his final set in Loser's Finals. There's a lot he could've done better with Samus, but it was still refreshing to see Samus in a tournament.

completely agree his missile game coulda been strongers no bomb edge guarding. and got to trigger happy with the up b. plus no reatreating dairs for space. but he definitly should have changed a few minds today.hes got 8th place in 200+ tourny. thats a big deal folks.

 

[HeroMystic]

His Samus wasn't played at the level she could be played at, still a lot of room for improvement. Really solid play though, good use of trickery. A lot of mistakes (constant screw attack whiffs -> punishes, SDs, etc), but still an even match against his opponent Player 1 in his final set in Loser's Finals. There's a lot he could've done better with Samus, but it was still refreshing to see Samus in a tournament.

All of this is true, and I hope we'll see more low-tier heroes like Chozox. It's a pretty big inspiration for character specialists like myself.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

All of this is true, and I hope we'll see more low-tier heroes like Chozox. It's a pretty big inspiration for character specialists like myself.

im pretty sure u enjoyed those matches as much as me lol.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All of this is true, and I hope we'll see more low-tier heroes like Chozox. It's a pretty big inspiration for character specialists like myself.

Y-yeah, I'd like to see more of that. Yup....*sniff*.

 

[PK Gaming]

Diddy totally reminds me of Nu-13 from BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger. That character straight up ran circles around every character in the game barring Rachel (who was top tier because of her good matchup against Nu-13). She wasn't just top tier, she practically ran the game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Some more experience and it will be one scary Samus.

I have to say I think I have severely underestimated Olimar in this game. Honestly not sure if it's just the matchup here though. What's Diddy Olimar like?

Edit: Like...I know he got kinda trashed but there were definitely moments of just dominating ground play that I haven't really seen since this game dropped. I also don't watch Olimars because of the lack of rep but still.

Well, I would imagine ranged Fsmash slows Diddy down a bit, and thrown Pikmin can steal bananas?

Tackle Pikmin Throw could be a real issue for Diddy with customs.

 

[Ffamran]

Are any of the matches available to watch anywhere or did I completely miss it?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Stream is still on.

 

[Ffamran]

Ooh... Let me just get my laptop... I thought this happened yesterday or something.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Are any of the matches available to watch anywhere or did I completely miss it?

but ya missed the samus hype >.<

 

[Emblem Lord]

Diddy totally reminds me of Nu-13 from BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger. That character straight up ran circles around every character in the game barring Rachel (who was top tier because of her good matchup against Nu-13). She wasn't just top tier, she practically ran the game.

I loved that *****. My main <3

On topic -I think the future meta will be Sheik, Diddy and Sonic. Easiest top tiers to play and see results with and they beat on each other though Sheik doesnt really lose to anyone.

 

[Conda]

Ooh... Let me just get my laptop... I thought this happened yesterday or something.

clashtournaments held a tournament yesterday, where ZeRo effortlessly waded through the whole thing with his optimally-played Diddy (nobody else really plays Diddy this well yet).

There's a tournament going on now hosted by VSGC.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I loved that *****. My main <3

On topic -I think the future meta will be Sheik, Diddy and Sonic. Easiest top tiers to play and see results with and they beat on each other though Sheik doesnt really lose to anyone.

That's pretty probable, but I hope y'all play your other chars in friendlies and stuff. That's why I still play Doc, he's honest and fun : (.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

clashtournaments held a tournament yesterday, where ZeRo effortlessly waded through the whole thing with his optimally-played Diddy (nobody else really plays Diddy this well yet).

There's a tournament going on now hosted by VSGC.

to be fair zero played bowser when he actually played him almost increadbly.
zeros just the best playing in this game right now.

 

[HeroMystic]

Y-yeah, I'd like to see more of that. Yup....*sniff*.

Doc will have his day.

 

[etecoon]

ZeRo is the only one playing his character optimally, Diddy's metagame is just further along than other characters, "Sheik is actually the best character"-top Diddys

Some serious deja vu lately

 

[Charls]

I was hoping Chozox would show us some impresive gameplay back when we first heard he would participate, and he didn't disappoint. He played that last set questionably however, a bit to much commitment for my taste.
--------------------
I find it a breath of fresh air we are at least somewhat divided on Diddy's overwhelming nature. Outside of these boards, about 95% of the people I speak with share the thought that Diddy needs a serious nerf (or a ban lol), most of them pointing to his most obviously dominating features (dthrow > uair, sideB). Although I can see the point and agree with arguments that insist on learning things like how to DI properly and what to do when Diddy has a banana on hand, @ Conda does lay down a very harsh truth.

After those replays become accessible to the public, Diddy's player base will only rise further. Thinking most characters are viable in a tournament setting is an appreciable philosophy, but unless we can look past that and acknowledge how player skill is what really pushes these statistically worse characters up, we won't realize the problem characters like Janky Kong really are. ZeRo played beastly in that tournament no doubt, but his character choice had a significant impact on him winning as well. Diddy is not an unmovable mountain, but in the right hands, looks like an unstoppable force. I do hope Sakurai takes note of the displeasure many have expressed against Diddy as he did with Little Mac (unfair as I believe any nerfs to the latter were). Unfortunately, hoping for Sakurai to do anything related to game balance after that last patch seems like a long shot.

 

[Kofu]

Can we just agree that the top/high tiers have various attributes that cause gameplay to become degenerate by enabling them to ignore usual conventions of the game? I was going to post what I felt about various characters but the moment passed and I doubt most people would read/care about them anyway. Instead I'm just going to say that what I feel is the biggest degenerate attribute: fast movement speed. This primarily means ground speed, since it lets characters play a waiting game of letting the opponent do stuff until they mess up and then rush in and punish. Sonic, ZSS, Sheik, Fox, and Falcon are all top ten in run speed (Pikachu and Yoshi are 12th, Diddy comes in 13th) and I think Sonic's run speed is what let's him "ignore neutral" like he does. Air speed is also a problem, admittedly a lesser one. Where run speed enables offensive advantages air speed gives characters better defensive options. But in the top 10 we have Yoshi, ZSS, Wario, and Sonic (Sheik and Falcon are in the top 15). Now, like I said, I don't think it's as big of a deal because acceleration/deceleration is also critically important (this combined with Yoshi's rubber body gives him unparalleled safety with this aerials) but it enables much more freedom in movement. Really, I think that good air speed is almost as important for a good ground game as fast ground speed is.

The next two degenerate attributes are kill throws and setup throws that work throughout a stock. The latter is fairly common in the top tiers but are usually not especially reliable without solid reads. Only Ness has the former in the top tiers, and I'd argue it's the only degenerate attribute he really has (he'd be good without it but his BThrow pushes him over the top).

 

[Cactusblah]

Sonic needs to be banned. 2 stock matches should not be 6 minute timeouts.

 

[Conda]

Can we just agree that the top/high tiers have various attributes that cause gameplay to become degenerate by enabling them to ignore usual conventions of the game? I was going to post what I felt about various characters but the moment passed and I doubt most people would read/care about them anyway. Instead I'm just going to say that what I feel is the biggest degenerate attribute: fast movement speed. This primarily means ground speed, since it lets characters play a waiting game of letting the opponent do stuff until they mess up and then rush in and punish. Sonic, ZSS, Sheik, Fox, and Falcon are all top ten in run speed (Pikachu and Yoshi are 12th, Diddy comes in 13th) and I think Sonic's run speed is what let's him "ignore neutral" like he does. Air speed is also a problem, admittedly a lesser one. Where run speed enables offensive advantages air speed gives characters better defensive options. But in the top 10 we have Yoshi, ZSS, Wario, and Sonic (Sheik and Falcon are in the top 15). Now, like I said, I don't think it's as big of a deal because acceleration/deceleration is also critically important (this combined with Yoshi's rubber body gives him unparalleled safety with this aerials) but it enables much more freedom in movement. Really, I think that good air speed is almost as important for a good ground game as fast ground speed is.

The next two degenerate attributes are kill throws and setup throws that work throughout a stock. The latter is fairly common in the top tiers but are usually not especially reliable without solid reads. Only Ness has the former in the top tiers, and I'd argue it's the only degenerate attribute he really has (he'd be good without it but his BThrow pushes him over the top).

I appreciate this post. However, Ness is not the only one with a kill throw. The best kill throw, yes, but Diddy nets many kills via bthrow, and Sonic nets many with bthrow and fthrow.

Sonic needs to be banned. 2 stock matches should not be 6 minute timeouts.

This is in response to tournament Sonic gameplay, which is important to note. Optimally played Sonics revolve around stalling, which is a real issue.