Character Competitive Impressions

[ChikoLad]

From what im reading they will probably be banned at apex.

Its not looking good.

I wouldn't be too worried about them being banned from the very first Apex Smash 4 is at. The meta for default moves is still in it's infancy, so keeping custom usage at a minimum for now seems justified, if only to get the scene for this game off the ground.

Customs are more something I expect to keep the scene fresh later on, not something I expect to kick-start it.

 

[Swoops]

Threatening to "quit smash 4" is kinda melodramatic.

I mean, I'm not attending any hypothetical events with certain moves (or characters) banned, but I'm a TO so your variance may mileage. Other people somewhere far away playing a game in a stupid way doesn't make the real game any less fun.

To throw my hat in the ring on the custom debate - it is a bit melodramatic to say "I quit smash because no customs," but I don't think popsofctown is that off base. I mean most of the characters can get by with defaults, but I can tell you that I would seriously have less fun if I wanted to be a Palutena/Samus/Ganondorf main with no access to customs.

On the logistics front, I think calling it a nightmare is a severe overstatement. Like Thinkaman said, it's almost ridiculous to think that no one at a tournament would have a 3ds with smash + customs unlocked. Even more ridiculous to think that a TO couldn't be responsible for pulling together 2 - 3 of them before hand.

At first I can see Wii U tournaments with customs being tough, but over time there will gradually be more fully unlocked set ups, then it just becomes a matter of filling in the gaps. The easiest way I could see a TO doing it is just to put the responsibility on the player, and have them declare any custom sets upon their sign up. You could probably offer a bit of leeway during the course of smaller tournaments and allow a player to declare a custom set before any matches. If a player gets called for a match and they want customs they didn't declare or aren't on the wii u, too bad. You're using the default or whatever customs are available.

I don't think it would be a problem at the larger scale 100+ tourneys either as they should be broken up into pools anyways. Just plan to have a 3ds for every 1 - 3 pools. Makes sense because larger scale tourneys need to have more resources anyways.

 

[Conda]

Are we really considering banning customs for good just because they'll be difficult to fully unlock for the first few months? This will be a competitive game for years, let's have some perspective. The logical thing to do at the start is, if not all setups have all customs unlocked at a tourney, to make it a no-customs tourney. Down the road when all setups have everything unlocked we can allow them. But we can't sleepwalk there, we have to actively reach that place.

As said above, some characters benefit from customs more than others, and most are the characters that are weaker. Thus allowing customs becomes more about fun and variety, but ensuring the variables are in place to ensure optimal roster balance.

Customs-off tourneys have every reason to have characters falling through the cracks (usually the ones that have default specials due to their defaults being arbitrary (palutena, miis, every new character), or being older characters whose defaults are chosen based on tradition and nothing else.

Which is why we cannot casually continue to ban them as time passes. We can compromise and ban them to begin with but only until early into the new year.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's not terribly unexpected or unfortunate for the very first WiiU tourneys to not have custom moves allowed, due to the unlocking concerns. It's just disappointing.

As a reminder, we are only worrying about Plan C here.

Plan A - Have WiiUs with customs unlocked
Plan B - At any point in the past, transfer virtually every competitively relevant set to WiiUs without customs
Plan C - Have a single 3DS with customs unlocked at the event
Plan D - Send profiles between WiiUs (requires Internet access)

The moment a cheat code, save file transfer, or other unlocking technique is discovered, all of this is irrelevant.

 

[Starbound]

I don't know if any of you are already aware of this, but Mii Fighters don't have a default moveset if you turn customs off. They will keep the moveset you built for them.

When I take my 3333 Gunner (Grenade Launch, Gunner Missile, Arm Rocket, Absorbing Vortex) into training mode, I still have those moves. The game doesn't force me to take a 1111 setup.

This means that in a customs off environment, Mii Fighter mains will need to create a 1111 moveset prior to playing their matches as there isn't a safeguard in the game from walking in with a fancy moveset. Each setup would thus need to ensure they have a default Mii for each type and when you factor in the Mii's height into the equation, you're looking at creating several Miis.

 

[Thinkaman]

This means that in a customs off environment, Mii Fighter mains will need to create a 1111 moveset prior to playing their matches as there isn't a safeguard in the game from walking in with a fancy moveset. Each setup would thus need to ensure they have a default Mii for each type and when you factor in the Mii's height into the equation, you're looking at creating several Miis.

If anyone is not allowing customs on the basis that they are annoying to unlock, then there is zero reason to ban Miis or Palutena customs.

 

[ChikoLad]

I really think TOs should have been endeavouring to collect all customs on the 3DS version all this time if they were afraid of it being an issue, even if they ask a friend to help them out. Then we would be able to just be able to import all of the relevant sets to Wii U.

Or even, if TOs have that 3DS with all customs, set up (securely) right beside the Wii U being used for actual play. That way, players just make the custom build they want on the provided 3DS (provided they don't have their own 3DS with their custom build of choice), and import it to the Wii U version right after. Since the two consoles would be set up very close to each other, the wireless communication needed for the transfer would be a non-issue too.

 

[Starbound]

If anyone is not allowing customs on the basis that they are annoying to unlock, then there is zero reason to ban Miis or Palutena customs.

I know and I absolutely agree.

I'm saying that if customs are banned for time reasons, there's reasonable justification to ban Miis as well as you'd be looking at having at least six Miis per system (max and min height for each default Mii fighter) without getting into how weight effects things.

The idea that there's nothing stopping Miis from going into a match with customs on is unsettling to me and I would think it may bother some people as well. If I'm going into a customs off match against a Mii Brawler, I shouldn't have to think about Piston Punch (Up Special 3) but in reality, the game won't stop my opponent from using Piston Punch.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

it's already becoming impossible to learn all the matchups and most competitive players have no interest in grinding single player modes.

Plus, there will already be modded versions of the game with better changes for those that are interested.

what are you talking about.

There are 3 options per special slot. Rarely are all 3 viable and excusing Miis and Paletuna customs as a whole are merely a variant of the base move.
You are rarely learning something abnormally different.

Lets take Shulk.

Spoiler

All 3 monados have the same concept. Hyper lasts half the time, has stronger drawbacks and stronger strengths. Faster activation
Decisive lasts 5s longer, long activation, cant swap, stronger strengths same drawbacks.

fighting any 3 variants is *fundamentally* the same.

All 2 back slash options have more lag and less damage/kb then the default. Leaping back slash has no horizontal movement, bacl slash charge has more horizontal movement and a small amount of super armor, weakest damage and KB.
The main difference here is that back slash leap wont be an often picked option. BS charge lacks KB and Damage to be a relian'e threat and is so laggy its a free punish. Same thing at its core.

Air Slash one can hit through the stage. AS2 doesnt but itll slide on landing weaker recovery, bit more kb but cant hit people fro, as high up. You'll die from both in practice at the same time, AS2 is nice on battlefield though for the platform slide. AS3 has the highest recovery, doesnt auto snap, has poor range, doesnt reliably set up its 2nd hit which is where the power is, but has more KB if you land the hit. Again basically just variants. AS3 is too unreliable as an attack its just a recovery boost woth more risk.
What is your fear here? The default is the strongest genera' option, AS3 lets you go slightly deeper on an edgeguard since your recovery is stronger, but you are easier to edgeguard and lack an OOS kill option as a result. Same core.

Counter that slides and is unblockable when grounded hold forward to do an instant version with more kb/damage. Same premise for all, 2 slides further weak damage, 3 hits harder, small counter window. There is nothing new to learn. Shulk counters on the ground and you die, if its counter 2 you wont die but he can approach off your projectiles better then 1 and 3 Simple.

There isnt any adapting to really do other then knowing decisive shield monado has bad recovery options, Back slash charge covers more distance.

Kirby.

Spoiler

Leaping inhale ignores shields, moves him half of FD. Ice breathe the windbox you know from default is a hitbox.

Wave cutter is final cutter but only the projectile does damage, decent KB on it.
Upper cutter is final cutter with no downward swing.

Hammer bash is brawl hammer, kills upright. Giant hammer isnt even viable so who cares.

all stones are the exact same concept. meteor stone meteors, ground buries. really straight forward.

Like its rarely rocket science.

There are few that are different enough in function and are similarly viable. For 70% if you know the default you know 90% of the variant.

Collecting your mains entire set takes like 1-2 hours tops.

Who cares about mods. Nintendos support pushes them out anyways.

Variety is a bit of a farce, each character will have a general meta set, that is what you learn. Unless someone is a special snowflake that mains 20 characters the customs used against there mains will be consistent and can be considered the opponents default.
No one has to remember Ember Blazikens because its not meta and its inferior.

 

[Thinkaman]

People who equate not banning customs to modding the game have a bizarre perspective; it is actually the exact opposite of that.

A modded game is more insular. People who have never heard of it are potentially excluded from competition. Little Timmy shows up to a Smash tourney, only to find out for some reason it's actually Super Secret Kool Kids Klubhouse Ultra Smash v6.0beta.

Banning custom moves or characters is also more insular. You are excluding people who play with those characters or moves from your environment. Little Timmy mains Ike and obviously wants to use the moves that make him viable, only to find out that for some reason he isn't allowed to have a viable character based on an option in the game.

Edit: It's a compound effect too, because imbalance is somewhat insular in-and-of itself. Everyone remembers the little Timmies who show up at Melee tourneys and wanted to play with Ness, Kirby, or Mewtwo, only to have the game laugh at them even if the players didn't. While fortunately no one in Smash 4 is that exclusionary, forcing Timmy to play Ike without customs is forcing Timmy to play a gimped, decidedly mediocre character.



Now, Timmy might also want or expect to use equipment; that's a legal option too, right? But maybe he also wanted or expected to play with items, or on Temple; all of these things are not used in competitive play for far deeper, unavoidable reasons.


One last thing. It's important to note that we were all little Timmies, and that every future Smash player is a little Timmy. None of us sprung from the forehead of Zeus as a fully-formed paragon of competitive mastery.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I wouldn't be too worried about them being banned from the very first Apex Smash 4 is at. The meta for default moves is still in it's infancy, so keeping custom usage at a minimum for now seems justified, if only to get the scene for this game off the ground.

Customs are more something I expect to keep the scene fresh later on, not something I expect to kick-start it.

its not justified at all. Denying customs even now until later is just slowing down the growth of development.
No one is using Hammer flip a year from now except against Marthcina shield breaks. No one is using cape over gust cape.
Frankly I think its a waste of time to not enable customs from the start.
Figure out what the standard sets are from now not a year later.

 

[Thinkaman]

its not justified at all. Denying customs even now until later is just slowing down the growth of development.
No one is using Hammer flip a year from now except against Marthcina shield breaks. No one is using cape over gust cape. So why bother spending 2/3 months with a competitively weak option meanwhile other less custom based characters get to enjoy their head start?
It makes even less sense since the 3ds was released earlier amd can transfer. No it doesnt require people have the 3ds it means tourneys can set up easier. Given the 3ds userbase greatly dwarfs the wii u's, lack of a 3ds to help set up a tournament is statistically unlikely.

Frankly I think its a waste of time to not enable customs from the start.
Im playing Shulk, pit and kirby (for now) I could reset my 3ds and have them all maxed out within a day.

I mean, I agree. I think pretty much everyone who regularly posts on their entire board is pretty much on the same fundamental page.

I'm just saying that if this transpires, it won't be Armageddon. Populist sentiment will eventually overpower any FUD.

 

[otter]

Customs should be legal. If they're not on the wii, use your DS. If you don't have a DS, you'll have to play default.

yikes, several hundred more dollars to have a chance in tournaments. this isn't LoL,

 

[NairWizard]

Threatening to "quit smash 4" is kinda melodramatic.

This is presumptuous and absurd (because presumptuous). He didn't "threaten" anything: you are just unnecessarily interpreting his words. I for one didn't read any kind of "threat" in his post; nor did it seem like melodrama, only disappointment that the tourney scene might take a distasteful course.

Anyway, "Smash 4 with customs on at a tourney scene" is not the same as "default smash 4 at a tourney scene" is not the same as "smash 4 with friends with items on." People play the game for different reasons and in different ways. Given that there are so many possible ways to spend one's free time (other games, hobbies, work, romance, war, peaceful meditation in nature, calling out other users on smashboards), it's perfectly legitimate to not want to play the game because of the presence or absence of some factor x. It's also perfectly legitimate to announce that desire--this puts the issue in perspective if enough people agree that factor x is a big problem (such as people who want Project M at Apex announcing that they won't attend or watch Apex without PM there, or people saying that they would quit Brawl if Meta Knight were to be banned).

If my state's TOs decided that going to time in smash would result in playing sudden death rather than the person with lower % winning, and that there would be a 3-minute timer, then I might quit too. Without a competitive scene that I enjoy, smash doesn't really mean much to me (or any other fighting game, or Hearthstone, or Dota, or...). I imagine that this applies to others in different ways.

On the issue of custom moves... I'm prepared for either possibility, but I absolutely see no reason not to allow Palutena's custom moves (which are the ones most likely to affect me). There's no issue of "fairness" or "unfairness" here: they are unlocked by default, so there are no logistics concerns.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is presumptuous and absurd (because presumptuous). He didn't "threaten" anything: you are just unnecessarily interpreting his words. I for one didn't read any kind of "threat" in his post; nor did it seem like melodrama, only disappointment that the tourney scene might take a distasteful course.

Hm? Are we talking about the same post? He was quite literal:

I'd almost certainly quit Smash 4 if customs are banned, widespread.

Anyway, my point is, Smash 4 is a good game without customs independent of how much better it is with. Melee and Brawl did not have such a feature, and they were both pretty decent games that I had a bit of fun with. If we turned back history such that Smash 4 never had customs, we'd be sitting here enjoying the (tragically inferior) still fun default game in blissful ignorance.

This isn't an argument in favor of banning customs (LOL), nor is it an argument for people to shut up and attend events regardless. (I already said I won't host or bother attending events with banned moves/characters) I'm just pointing out the obvious to reframe our conversation.

If customs were never announced for Smash 4, I'd still play Smash 4 and go to events--enjoying it all ignorant of what could have been. This is not true of the other comparisons made, such as if Smash 4 was exclusively sudden death mode; that I would simply not enjoy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmm im talking to players and TOs in nj and logistics is the only real issue. If a move is bull **** they feel it should be banned but most moves they feel are fine.

Im alot less worried now. NJ is very influential in the scene so if in time they give it a chance i feel other regions will too

 

[Lemon Girl]

If pokémon players can learn the strenghs, weaknesses, stats, sets and entire movepools of hundreds of monsters, I'm pretty sure smashers can learn the different customs, besides, is not like all customs are good, in the long run, I'm pretty sure most characters will have a "most viable setup", with some alternatives. So it's not like you will need to learn the entire 400-ish customs and thousands of combinations possible, just the most common.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

yikes, several hundred more dollars to have a chance in tournaments. this isn't LoL,

Or you know....just ask to get that move slot transferred.
50 million 3ds owners...someone probably has portable smash bros at a smash bros tournament. Large tourneys should have everything unlocked anyways.

I dont mean to offend but if you feel obligated to spend 200 to be tourney viable you arent being intuitive.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hmmm im talking to players and TOs in nj and logistics is the only real issue.

The attitude that customs should not be allowed until we figure out the optimal procedures to make sure things run smoothly is not an unreasonable one. (If exceptionally cautious)

It's important for people who feel strongly about customs (including me!) to not make this into an us vs. them fight.

 

[Conda]

yikes, several hundred more dollars to have a chance in tournaments. this isn't LoL,

FOR THE FIRST COUPLE MONTHS

Can we stop the apocalyptic crazy talk, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. this will be a non issue very quickly relatively speaking for smash bros instalments.

This feels like a town hall where someone complains about the random chance some horrible yet super unlikely thing will happen, and how EVERYONE needs to worry about it and make changes because of it. I mean, gosh, let us stop worrying.

This is not a lifetime issue. This can only affect you if you go to tourneys in the first couple months. Which means you're likely a hardcore enough player that you either have a 3ds or know other people at your local who will let you use theirs. And if you DON'T, then talk to your TO and solve your exceptional case in the context of your personal tournament experience. There will be people there to help.

Do not panic here and let worries grow to the point of manifesting into community-wide ruleset changes. Step back and relax, do not turn this into something it simply is not.

 

[HeroMystic]

If pokémon players can learn the strenghs, weaknesses, stats, sets and entire movepools of hundreds of monsters, I'm pretty sure smashers can learn the different customs, besides, is not like all customs are good, in the long run, I'm pretty sure most characters will have a "most viable setup", with some alternatives. So it's not like you will need to learn the entire 400-ish customs and thousands of combinations possible, just the most common.

I don't think anyone with a reasonable mindset is against customs because "it's moar work". At least, I hope not. Custom Specials are a godsend for a game like this.

Regardless of how things start off, I'm confident custom specials will be included in our metagame.

 

[Bowserlick]

If competitive players do not have three top characters with no to very narrow weaknesses and set combo's, they belly ache. In a real fight, they would just mewl like a flea-coated kitten and be punched in the face.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Hmmm im talking to players and TOs in nj and logistics is the only real issue. If a move is bull **** they feel it should be banned but most moves they feel are fine.

Im alot less worried now. NJ is very influential in the scene so if in time they give it a chance i feel other regions will too

You have no idea what a huge relief this is for me. I've been hearing NJ being super ready to ban customs, but if we can work out the logistics over time then there's a lot more hope than I realized.

 

[otter]

FOR THE FIRST COUPLE MONTHS

Can we stop the apocalyptic crazy talk, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. this will be a non issue very quickly relatively speaking for smash bros instalments.

This feels like a town hall where someone complains about the random chance some horrible yet super unlikely thing will happen, and how EVERYONE needs to worry about it and make changes because of it. I mean, gosh, let us stop worrying.

This is not a lifetime issue. This can only affect you if you go to tourneys in the first couple months. Which means you're likely a hardcore enough player that you either have a 3ds or know other people at your local who will let you use theirs. And if you DON'T, then talk to your TO and solve your exceptional case in the context of your personal tournament experience. There will be people there to help.

Do not panic here and let worries grow to the point of manifesting into community-wide ruleset changes. Step back and relax, do not turn this into something it simply is not.

I was quoting someone specifically who said you should be required to have both consoles and both games to play in tournaments. I'm not personally worried about it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well juice.doom plans on running custom tournies from day one and he is NJ. So custom tournies still have a foothold here which is awesome

 

[popsofctown]

I wasn't threatening anyone. What, like I could coerce all of smashboards to play with customs lest they lose my valuable participation? My point is that if customs aren't allowed, the game takes a big enough hit in depth and quality that it doesn't meet the opportunity cost of time spent for me, and probably doesn't for a lot of people. Melee, PM, TF2, League of Legends, Magic the Gathering, Starcraft 2, Netflix, Skullgirls, and Hearthstone are all dogs in the hunt for my time and competitive itch, and custom moves are probably necessary for this game to keep my interest three years down the road. Do you want Smash 4 to be the game that people play instead of League because they can't afford League but can afford a 30$ controller, or do you want Smash 4 to be the game they play instead of League because it offers more variety, depth, gameplay, and competitive satisfaction? I lean towards the latter.

Thinkaman's comparison to an alternate universe where custom moves never existed fails a bit. First off, the game wouldn't have been released as is without custom moves, custom moves are part of how its supposed to be an improved sequel, and many characters have weaknesses that seem to be intended to be addressed by custom specials by design, like Rob's incomplete outcamp gameplan if he loses access to sideb2.

And if the game was released with defaults, yeah, I'd like it when it first came out. I've liked every Smash game when it first came out. But the quality of the game and variety it offers determines how much I enjoy it and how much I come back to it. We're not in the chapter in a game's lifecycle where that would even matter yet.

 

[NairWizard]

Hm? Are we talking about the same post? He was quite literal:

edit: looks like popsofctown beat me to it, but I'll leave the first part of my post here anyway. The second part is about Palutena, so skip to that for those uninterested in this discussion.

"I would almost certainly quit" is not a threat, at least without tone of voice to accompany it. It can just as easily be read as, "this disappoints me enough for me to quit the game" or "this game isn't exciting enough to me without customs," both of which are legitimate things to say (no threats, no melodrama). Imo, it's unnecessary to assign your interpretation of his tone of voice and intended meaning to his text and then call him out for it.

If customs ever never announced for Smash 4, I'd still go to Smash 4 events--ignorant of what could have been. This is not true of the other comparisons made, such as if Smash 4 was exclusively sudden death mode.

Certainly is: if smash had always been exclusively sudden death mode with a 3-minute timer at tournaments, I would certainly not have attended my first smash tournament. That rule would have seemed dumb to me as much back then as it does now.

Your point that smash is still smash is valid, and certainly applies to me as I would play this game with or without customs, but "still smash" may not be enough for everyone. For some, "Smash with customs and thus additional balance and nuance" may add enough additional appeal to the game to make it worth playing. It's also not quite fair to say that had customs never existed, we would enjoy the game as it is right now, because that's not the case: customs do exist, and we can't just ignore the psychological effect of disabling something that's been coded into the game. The Rosalina discussion is a great example of this: having something taken away is always worse than never having something at all, and does affect your enjoyment of the base scenario, because you now know what "might have been" (and was! as it was programmed into the game!).

Additionally, it's clear that Sakurai (or his balance team, rather) balanced this game around customs, at least to some extent.

--

So, to make this a topical post, I'd like to bring up Palutena without customs, something that I've been meaning to talk about for a while now. As undeniably awesome as Palutena is with customs on (explosive flame, super speed, lightweight, jump glide is delicious in particular), the default set has merits of its own, and Palutena's normals are underrated. People take a look at her ground tilts and go, "oh, these things suck; they're too laggy, too much risk, gg Palutena bottom tier" but if you take a closer look at her normals you see that she's not actually lacking in a ground game at all:

• She has the best jab in the game bar none (alright, maybe bar one or two), and that's saying something in a game with so many awesome jabs. Jab 1 leads into grab and can even lead into f-smash on most characters (a great way to get a kill). Jab is disjointed so she can spam it safely, and it's a great shield pressure tool.
• Her grab looks pretty bad at first because of the endlag (especially on her pivot grab), but it has about the same reach as Zelda's grab, so you aren't going to get punished for using it in most situations. Meanwhile, her rewards out of grab are crazy: d-throw does like 6-7% and you can get a 10-12% n-air or 6% f-air followup out of it. Pummel does 3-4%. 16 - 32 damage is nothing to scoff at, though it will rarely be 32 in practice, because when opponents are at high enough %s to receive multiple pummels, followups will be harder. On the other hand, you can sometimes get a second grab after landing with n-air since it pulls the opponent down.
  
• While f-tilt and up-tilt are very laggy, d-tilt is not (as has been mentioned in this thread before). It sometimes disappoints me due to its lack of range but I very rarely get punished for using d-tilt. A multihit move that barely lags is definitely useful.
• F-tilt can't be used to create space, but jab has enough range and disjoint to be used for that purpose anyway, so Palutena doesn't really miss having a traditionally functional f-tilt that much. On the other hand, the f-tilt that she does have can be used with a pivot with relative impunity (it's hard to punish pivot f-tilts of any kind, but Palutena's is a multi-hit move so it's especially difficult--the hitbox lasts for a long time).
• Palutena doesn't really miss having a traditionally functional up-tilt either. How often do most characters even use their up-tilts (except Lucario/Greninja and a few others with arcing up-tilts that hit to the sides as well)? Hitting directly above you in smash isn't that useful: no one is going to just leap on top of you and do nothing, that would be absurd. Sure, people use their up-tilts as landing traps, but guess what? Palutena's up-tilt is an especially good landing trap--disjointed and multi-hit means that it will beat out most landings.
• Dash attack is awesome because she hits with her shield. It will beat most attacks/projectiles. It's no Yoshi dash attack--but I daresay that it's better, because with enough practice against Yoshi you can punish his DA just as easily as you can punish Palutena's. Meanwhile, Palutena's DA has that shield, so it's harder to beat straight up in an attack vs. attack situation.
• Invisibility on rolls is kind of overrated but it's stronger than having no invisibility on rolls for sure (trivially true; how much stronger is up for debate--I would say a fair bit stronger, or at least useful in 2 out of every 5 roll situations).
• Palutena's ground mobility, however, is not overrated, and she has multiple options for getting around (the cha cha slide thing that she does, foxtrotting, fast walk, fast dash--everything you could want).
• Up-smash is awesome. It has a poor animation-to-hitbox alignment (meaning that the hitbox doesn't cover the whole animation), but up-smash reads are surprisingly easy and safe, and used as an anti-air this move shuts down certain characters like Jigglypuff and Rosalina (I'm looking at you, well-spaced n-airs).
  
• f-smash is pretty good, mostly because jab can lead into it (not guaranteed though). The windbox isn't super useful contrary to first impressions, but it does make using it a bit safer.
• d-smash is honestly useless and this doesn't even deserve to be a bullet point. I guess it's good if you break someone's shield somehow and...yeah, not even gonna try. This move is garbage.

Now, for her default specials: yes, they seem lackluster at first, but no, on an individual-move basis, they are far from it. Counter is actually really useful, even though it seems to have set knockback, because it can be used as an edgeguarding tool vs. some characters, as a landing mixup, or as a surprise recovery option from offstage. It's basically like any other counter. I often take Counter over Lightweight or Celestial Firework anyway, so you aren't losing anything by having this as your down-b.

Reflect barrier is the best reflector in the game. Not slow like Pit's, and actually goes out ahead of Palutena, unlike Mario's. It's hilarious to see a Rosalina charge Luma Shot or Megaman charge f-smash and forget that I have reflect barrier (only bad ones do this, but that doesn't mean it's any less hilarious). It is useless in matchups that don't involve projectiles, but meh! So is Fox's reflector, really. Not a big deal.

Warp is awesome and a half, prevents edgeguarding attempts from the likes of , the monster that he is, and can occasionally be used as an escape from the air (or to the other side of an opponent rushing at you with invincibility frames). I would replace this with Jump Glide, personally, but that's not to say that Jump Glide is better: they serve different purposes.

Autoreticle...OK, OK, this move is bad. In fairness, it does decent damage, and combined with Reflect Barrier it means that almost everyone else in the game has to approach you instead of the other way around, so it's not a total loss. But yeah, I would prefer almost any other projectile special in the game to autoreticle. I wish that Palutena's default kit had Explosive Flame in it

Palutena's aerial game is pretty good, I think, among the best in the game (Ness, Diddy, etc. do have awesome aerials though). F-air only does 6% but it's super fast and seems to autocancel (12 frames of landing lag, actually). Most characters in this game not named Sheik or Ness can't short hop aerial space all that well, but Palutena can! If the lack of an f-tilt is considered a problem for her, it's only because people aren't using f-air enough. Though laggier, B-air is probably her best move at least imo, and is another option you can short hop space--with near impunity. B-air eats everything, super strong, and using it to bash Luma is both immensely satisfying and easy (emphasis on immensely satisfying). Same as her dash attack but IN THE AIR. B-air is love, b-air is life. Together, f-air and b-air make Palutena significantly better on the ground because, again, many characters don't have aerial short hop options that are worth much.

The rest of her aerials are situationally useful but the situations in which they are useful arise fairly often. N-air is useful as a followup, for instance, but did you know it can also be used to edgeguard? You can pull people down toward the bottom of the stage with a run off n-air and then recover safely using warp. Actually, the only problem with Palutena's aerial kit is that she doesn't have a quick n-air interrupt, which admittedly is a bummer (though f-air can often be used for that purpose, and b-air is awesome if difficult to land at times). D-air needs a bigger hitbox, but other than that it's pretty swift, so it can actually be used onstage and offstage. I really wish she had DK's spike though. Up-air feels so laggy when I use it, but it's a great kill move, especially because Palutena has up-smash and up-tilt as well, so you have to watch out for multiple options as her opponent (Palutena can jump up, bait your airdodge, fall back down and then quickly up-smash or up-tilt).

So all this talk about her moveset is OK and all, but what about matchups? That's where the money is after all.

• Good luck using PK fire against reflect barrier. Ness' down-b is about as useless as autoreticle in this matchup, so that's not an issue either. Anyway, Ness has awesome aerials and kills significantly earlier than Palutena, but Palutena's edgeguarding is actually pretty good vs. Ness (you can try to use reflect barrier to edgeguard him and Greninja, though this is extremely difficult and not recommended for the faint of heart--just use Counter, his recovery angle is telegraphed anyway). Warp can escape PK Thunder juggle traps, DA trumps Ness' DA, b-air trumps his f-air. His only problematic tool is SH n-air because for some reason he seems to put on hands the size of oven mitts when he jumps. And is that a head mitt on his up-air? Anyway, Palutena doesn't struggle here.
  
• Palutena is one of the few characters who doesn't really have to care about needles, and SH f-air is about as non-commit as Sheik's own. Sheik is kind of scary when she's f-air combo'ing you until you realize that her f-tilt and f-air combos don't actually do a lot of damage, and that Palutena can kill much earlier with an f-smash or up-smash than Sheik can. Warp can get you out of juggles and edgeguard attempts. I honestly don't know how many other characters I would actually feel safe using vs. Sheik: whenever I use Diddy I'm confident in my ability to kill her earlier than she can kill me but needle to drop-off n-air ruins my day when I'm recovering. With Palutena you don't have to worry about most of Sheik's silliness. Oh, and did I mention that your jab is disjointed?
• Can't aura sphere camp Palutena (no, really, you can't; you will risk death), so Lucario is forced to approach--and approaching isn't exactly pretty for him, because KO power is not one of the areas in which Palutena struggles. The range on Lucario's normals isn't that great, either, and no matter how strong his attacks are it doesn't matter if they're meeting with dash attacks and b-airs. Still, I might be underestimating just how silly Aura is.
• This MU is in Rosalina's favor, though B-air and DA are great against Luma (even if you get hit for DA'ing it). F-air is generally safe, up-smashing Luma isn't super safe but you can do it with good spacing. F-smash's windbox actually comes in handy vs. Luma in my experience, and f-tilt isn't super awful against Luma either. Palutena's janky hitboxes actually are pretty good for fighting Luma overall, and jab is disjointed and safe as always. N-air edgeguarding is effective since Launch Star doesn't have a hitbox. Default starbits is really, really annoying, but Luma Shot meets Reflect Barrier, and autoreticle targeting Luma is a humorous and useful trait. Despite all of that, Rosalina is just too safe for Palutena to abuse. D-tilt and f-tilt have so, so much range, and grab followups are out of the question because of Luma (which is really really saddening). Even 13 seconds isn't enough, because while you're trying to catch Rosalina and grab her, Luma might respawn while you're trying to follow up. It sucks, yeah.
  
• Please no why. Don't try to reflect the banana; you will get owned by Monkey Flip mixups. This matchup is bad, Palutena is too tall and light, and Diddy's followups are too fast to escape with Warp consistently. He gains almost as much out of grab as she does. On the bright side, edgeguarding him is pretty safe! On the not-so-bright side, you can't space f-airs because Diddy's f-air is as large as a semi truck and hits like one too. Meh, at least Palutena has ja--oh, wait, did I just get Monkey Flipped?
• I think that by default most of Yoshi's matchups are even, as he has the tools to deal with most situations. Anyway, eggs go over Reflect Barrier, but Palutena's DA beats his DA, which is one of his best tools, and her jab beats his jab due to range and disjoint (again one of his best tools). Her jab leads into f-smash better than his jab leads into up-smash for that reason as well. His recovery is quite predictable and should be getting b-aired almost all the time, maybe even up-smashed or d-aired. If not for n-air stopping her followup combos, I would almost certainly put this in Palutena's favor.
• Reflect Barrier is awesome in this matchup, and Robin's grab game is quite a bit worse than Palutena's, BUT to be fair Robin's levin sword is a very very strong tool: levin f-air and levin up-air are absolute monsters. I think that Robin is one of the strongest characters in the game despite her weaknesses; Palutena's jab disjoint is met with Robin's own jab disjoint (which is stronger than Palutena's jab).
• B-air her. Then, when she pulls a turnip and floats toward you, hellbent on sweet carrot-veggie revenge, b-air her again. /shallow analysis
• Reflect barrier vs. shurikens, up-tilt vs. d-air, jab disjoint > jab no disjoint, b-air vs. n-air, DA with invincibility > DA, Reflect Barrier can even gimp Hydro Pump recoveries (Greninja has a harder time gimping Warp). Greninja's advantages in this MU are low profile, faster ground speed, and up-smash (DACUS will be a nightmare), but I think Palutena just has too many advantages for this to be in his favor. Probably even in Palutena's favor, but I haven't played the match-up much at all.
• This is a fun one. You can reflect his lasers but he can reflect them back (I think!)! Fox's main problem I think is killing Palutena: he can't edgeguard very well (especially with Warp) so up-smash or a well-spaced b-air are his only real ways of killing. Meanwhile, that disjointed jab will get him to high percents fairly easily, and he can die to several of Palutena's moves (well-spaced b-air, n-air edgeguard while he's trying to up-b, up-smash or f-smash, jab or DA at higher %s).
  
• Jiggs is strong in this game, but Palutena eats her up for breakfast with her anti-air moves--up-smash, f-tilt and up-tilt (Jiggs is floaty in the air), and b-air are all strong, dominant options. Jigglypuff is also very light so a single up-smash read at mid-high percents can end her.
• Reflect Barrier all day. He's not that great at recovering either: n-air will consistently gimp him. I don't see how this is anything but in Palutena's favor, but DHD mains please feel free to enlighten me.

All of these matchups are with customs off. When customs are turned on, I don't see how Palutena is anything but the best character in the game, and by a good margin: she'll have the tools to be a CP against every relevant character in the game (Explosive Flame destroys big profiles, Super Speed annihilates Luma, Jump Glide gives her an approach option against nearly every character in the game, and an unpredictable one at that alongside Super Speed, and Lightweight makes getting kills trivial against people who kill early like Diddy--and even if not trivial, at least substantially easier), and I hardly think that she has any bad MUs that can't be patched by switching to a different custom. The infinite lightweight glitch isn't even necessary.

tl;dr: use b-air on Luma. You won't regret it.

 

[otter]

you think smash needs custom moves to be as deep as league!?

 

[ChikoLad]

its not justified at all. Denying customs even now until later is just slowing down the growth of development.
No one is using Hammer flip a year from now except against Marthcina shield breaks. No one is using cape over gust cape.
Frankly I think its a waste of time to not enable customs from the start.
Figure out what the standard sets are from now not a year later.

I'm not saying this because of them taking too long to unlock or anything. I am an advocate of custom moves (heck, I wouldn't be opposed to separate tournaments that allow equipment too - but that's another discussion entirely), even though I have not done much experimentation with them (I'm just focused on getting them all right now).

But for the purpose of a big, huge tournament, it's fully possible that not everyone will be ready for customs the first time we have one.

Remember, we may have worked things out in our own heads. But it takes time for us to get our rationale out to the entire community, and I know not everyone likes the idea of customs. So I think it's fine to give people one, big, vanilla tournament just to kick the scene off. Then after that, customs will be brought in, and that will therefore make things more varied and exciting the next year, and there will literally be no excuse for Wii U systems to even have all of the customs unlocked. At which point, organising events with customs is easier than it could ever be.

 

[DanGR]

you think smash needs custom moves to be as deep as league!?

League has more variables, so it's inherently more complex in that sense.

 

[Thinkaman]

A few important thoughts:

• Complexity is not depth.
• Breadth ("options") is not depth.
• In fact, breadth is inversely related to depth for a bound complexity space.
• Depth is not the holy grail of game design properties. It's just one of many.

(pictured: depth)


Custom moves as a system does not add depth, not in general. They add external breadth exactly like adding more characters does. More ways to play the game--more sub-games to play.

Custom moves are certainly a good thing, in the same sense that more characters in the game is a good thing. Custom moves are also certainly a good thing in that character balance is significantly improved when we choose to consider only the best or most viable custom moves options.

But let's be responsible with the vocab we're throwing around. "Depth" all too often loses all meaning when thrown around a lot.

 

[DanGR]

Duly noted, Thinkaman.

Complexity is how many options are available, while depth is more related to how you use the "good" options.

Complexity typically breeds depth though. Not necessarily, obviously.

 

[Thinkaman]

Complexity is how many options are available

Well, not necessarily. Complexity is really "how many rules the game has", and not all rules create new options. They may just be specifying nuanced interactions between existing options, tweaking the outcomes of choices that already existed.

Increasing breadth tends to require increasing complexity, since new options usually need new rules. Ideally we want to increase complexity only the minimum, required amount to do so.

while depth is more related to how you use the "good" options.

That's not far off base. I always liked to regard depth as how many layers of decisions the game is about thinking ahead. "If I do X, they will do Y and then I'd Z..."

Games like Chess and Go routinely demand players think 3-5 meaningful moves ahead. (More if certain mvoes aren't meaningful, i.e. a forced capture) 99% of the time the "game" you are playing is the future one in your head, not the one on the board.

Fighting games actually have relatively little traditional depth compared to most games, instead focusing on yomi--which one may or may not classify as "depth". It's fractal depth, a substitute with similar flavor that is way easier to design.

Complexity typically breeds depth though. Not necessarily, obviously.

Complexity normally stands in the way of depth; it's really hard to make nested, recursive gameplay decisions with overhead. High depth requires very friction-less decision-making. Almost all of the deepest-decision games are among the lowest complexity. (Go, Chess)

But again, depth isn't the only goal and is actually somewhat unimportant to most fighting game gameplay.

 

[popsofctown]

I used the term depth loosely and am not here to defend it. Depth, breadth, x factor, jenna say kwa, fun, intensity, mindgamez, whatever it is that makes me wanna play some games more than others. Custom moves definitely bring the feng shui that the Force needs to take the power of friendship to super saiyan level 3.

 

[LiteralGrill]

ITT: people trying to ban custom moves because they are too lazy to do the work to get them on consoles

If we seriously are going to ban things out of PURE "it's too much work" laziness I wont quit smash 4, I'll quit the scene

How is that even an argument? We have to put in more work so we're gonna ban them? What?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wouldn't it be easier on customs because of Master and Crazy orders?

 

[ChikoLad]

ITT: people trying to ban custom moves because they are too lazy to do the work to get them on consoles

If we seriously are going to ban things out of PURE "it's too much work" laziness I wont quit smash 4, I'll quit the scene

How is that even an argument? We have to put in more work so we're gonna ban them? What?

I've kinda wanted to just outright say this too, but I suppose I'll add:

If spending years training with the same character to improve your skills in a fighting game is considered a worthy use of time for someone, why isn't getting a few custom moves something they can handle, since depending on their level of interest in the concept ("do I want all of the custom moves in the game, or just for one character"), they only have to spend anywhere from a few minutes to a week grinding for them?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also ITT: We ban custom moves because we're too lazy to learn how to fight against them.

If ANYONE is saying that they honestly are downright scrubs. I rarely outright insult folks but having ran many customs on tournaments and seeing loads of players having zero issues learning how to fight with and against them I can't fathom how our top players in the scene could say they can't. I'm probably an average player and I could manage to learn this. Do not cut depth out of the game out of laziness please.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

ITT: people trying to ban custom moves because they are too lazy to do the work to get them on consoles

That's not the kinda "work" that's off-putting to some. I think the real concern is about the efficiency, the execution, and the implementation of customs in a real life tournament setting. Sure it sounds relatively painless on paper, but when you start factoring people into the equation...

Y'know, **** this. @ Thinkaman , @ Conda , @ whomever, why don't we get a separate topic going and start brainstorming ways to streamline customs on a macro-sized scale. We don't need to clutter up the thread anymore with this talk.

Smooth Criminal

 

[chipndip]

I said increase the recovery so it isn't as safe. everyone's dash attack can be punished so yeah, but yoshi's dash attack recovery isn't long and has a good amount of forward momentum and active frames so he can his rollers, and has a shot at going behind you so you have to guess at times.

Also dash attack isn't his only means of approach. His best approaches are through the air not simply on the ground. You are attempting to make him seem worse than he actually is. Yoshi is freaking amazing in this game. Especially since he basically has a tether grab which goes only also adds to his offense

Air approaches get shield grabbed on a dime, so why air approaches would be his best bet...uh...

Also, his grab sucks. It can't punish OoS, it's slow, you can't combo off of it in any direction at all, and it doesn't grab while returning to him like Zamus's. To make up for the bad grab n' throws, he has a good dash attack. Makes sense to me. Besides, there are others with good stuff in different categories anyway, like KO move tilts, high damage/reliable combos, camping, pressure, reflects and counters, and so on. Yoshi just happens to have a great dash attack and good air movement coupled with relatively high weight.

If he was nerfed somehow, I wouldn't be horrendously surprised, tbh. However, given my experience up until now, one would need to be very careful as to what was nerfed and how. It'd be simpler to just not buff him further.

palutena needs someone to be on her side.lol

Palutena needs a n-air that actually makes sense and faster tilts, if anything. That'd fix her up faster than Light Weight + Super Speed.

Off-topic(s): Ya know what? I've been looking for someone to settle it in Smash with. You think you'd lag with someone in Texas?