Character Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

The reason this is happening is because the vast majority of people who play Smash are casual players who play 4-player battles with items. Most people barely know how to block.

I imagine that in these casual matches, Flare Blitz was destroying in 4-player battles.

This is a reminder that the game will not be balanced only with regards to top level play in mind, but also with casual play in mind.

If we go by FFAs filled with little kids for balance changes, I see a whole lot of nerfs for characters like Charizard, Ike, Little Mac, etc in the future

@ ellord : You may wanna stop before you keep drilling yourself even deeper into a hole.

 

[NairWizard]

maybe they made default Lucario stronger but high-aura Lucario weaker!

 

[popsofctown]

The reason this is happening is because the vast majority of people who play Smash are casual players who play 4-player battles with items. Most people barely know how to block.

I imagine that in these casual matches, Flare Blitz was destroying in 4-player battles.

This is a reminder that the game will not be balanced only with regards to top level play in mind, but also with casual play in mind.

No, Flare Blitz destroys 1v1 player battles also when there's any latency at all. The amount of frames of warning vs the time it takes to shield makes you able to shield just in time offline, but never in time online with a connection that isn't godlike. Spamming flare blitz in neutral is a degenerate strategy in online play, and the nerf is probably to improve the for glory experience.

I imagine Dragon Rush, the custom version that many Charizards already reportedly prefer, won't receive a matching nerf and will take over Flare Blitz's job giving zard a legitimate offline moveset.

 

[NairWizard]

Lack of approach against campy because of his range/speed nerf.

Marth's range and speed were *not* nerfed. The engine was just changed.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Looks like Zard just doesnt go through projectiles anymore, thats all it is.

Flare Blitz eating through most projectiles was what made it such a great tool against certain characters since a lot of projectiles were punishable on reaction (see Trela vs Denti).

If this really just happened I'm going to be pissed. This was 100% unnecessary.

Dragon Rush is still superior in my eyes but Flare Blitz definitely had its uses in certain MUs.

This ****ing blows dude.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Im betting they buffed him elswhere to make up for it and that they only nerfed that due to how spammable/abusable it is in FFA.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Flare Blitz eating through most projectiles was what made it such a great tool against certain characters since a lot of projectiles were punishable on reaction (see Trela vs Denti).

If this really just happened I'm going to be pissed. This was 100% unnecessary.

Dragon Rush is still superior in my eyes but Flare Blitz definitely had its uses in certain MUs.

This ****ing blows dude.

It definitely happened

 

[Radical Larry]

We all know KO Uppercut is safe on dodge with most characters, though with Pac-Man, here's something that most have already seen.

To a good degree of topic, the Fire Hydrant, just like King Dedede's Gordo Toss, is very dangerous due to the high knockback you'll receive after being hit by the attack. Of course, the video is to be expected to show why it's dangerous to use either attack (though mainly the Fire Hydrant), but it's also a reminder that things can be unpredictable (and hilarious) in Smash Bros.

 

[The Real Gamer]

This just gives more justification to my argument that balancing the game around FFAs is dumb.

Do casuals even take FFAs seriously?

 

[Shaya]

Marth's fair: +3 frame start up, +3 frame end time. Still literally the same beast as it was in Brawl while completely in the air.
Dair: +3 frame start up, I think 10 frames taken off the landing.
Uair/Bair/Nair: Same as Brawl.
Auto cancels and landing lag? Bair is the same as in Brawl, all landing lag is generally worse for the ENTIRE CAST.

Jab: +1 start up
Dancing blade: +3 start up, a lot laggier ending on the first strike (but not when used in the air, only on the ground, otherwise same ending as in Brawl).

Marth forward smash: -1 frame start up (as in, faster), something like 5+ frames taken off the ending lag.
Up Smash: 2 frames extra start up (on the feet hitbox, sword 'start up' is still the same)

Everything else is either the same start up, with negligible ending differences or buffed.

P.S. I still main Marth. Won a live/local/in person tournament with him yesterday
"guess I'm not playing Marth"
When I say 'objective' I mean it. Frame data exists for both characters already, take a look, or stay ignorant and cry about your inability to use a hard to play character. I haven't seen you around the Marth boards, you should set yourself up to be liberated.

 

[ellord]

Well, when im talking about speed and rushdown, i include other mecanic that allowed him to feel like a fast comboer and hop-jump + double fair

 

[Z'zgashi]

This just gives more justification to my argument that balancing the game around FFAs is dumb.

Do casuals even take FFAs seriously?

Oh I agree, its a silly nerf, but if they cut down end lag on some tilts/aerials to make up for it or give him something safe on block, etc, it would be completely worth the FB nerf imo.

 

[NairWizard]

Well, when im talking about speed and rushdown, i include other mecanic that allowed him to feel like a fast comboer and hop-jump + double fair

Double f-air is 99% of the time a bad option, so losing out on it isn't a problem for Marth (I know, I know, pointless discussion to continue, but I couldn't resist).

 

[Iron Kraken]

No, Flare Blitz destroys 1v1 player battles also when there's any latency at all. The amount of frames of warning vs the time it takes to shield makes you able to shield just in time offline, but never in time online with a connection that isn't godlike. Spamming flare blitz in neutral is a degenerate strategy in online play, and the nerf is probably to improve the for glory experience.

I imagine Dragon Rush, the custom version that many Charizards already reportedly prefer, won't receive a matching nerf and will take over Flare Blitz's job giving zard a legitimate offline moveset.

My point was not to say that Flare Blitz isn't a good move 1v1, only that Charizard clearly didn't need a nerf overall, and that I imagine the change was made specifically because I could see it recking in casual 4-player battles. If Smash Bros. only existed at a high level of play, I doubt they would have bothered nerfing it.

 

[popsofctown]

My point was not to say that Flare Blitz isn't a good move 1v1, only that Charizard clearly didn't need a nerf overall, and that I imagine the change was made specifically because I could see it recking in casual 4-player battles. If Smash Bros. only existed at a high level of play, I doubt they would have bothered nerfing it.

I doubt they balance for 4v4. 4v4 has way more natural balance. If a character is perceived as strong in 4v4 you can pick on that character, which auto-balances free for alls.

 

[ellord]

Double f-air is 99% of the time a bad option, so losing out on it isn't a problem for Marth (I know, I know, pointless discussion to continue, but I couldn't resist).

Not really, u could grab + grab + hop jump- fair-fair to fox at 0% as guaranted combo.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Oh I agree, its a silly nerf, but if they cut down end lag on some tilts/aerials to make up for it or give him something safe on block, etc, it would be completely worth the FB nerf imo.

All will be forgiven if they make his Bair autocancel but I'm not getting my hopes up.

So many of my punishes came from well timed Flare Blitzes against projectile spam...

This is just sad dude.

 

[NairWizard]

Sometimes I think that we should have a Skype group for character competitive impressions, given that the people who post here are all mostly familiar with each other (the same people post repeatedly, that is). The kind of discussion taking place here about Flare Blitz would probably be better off going there.

Nah, never mind, Shaya vs. Ellord is too much fun

 

[ellord]

No way they can balance a free for all. Too many occasion to punish everyone and with time people can kill steal.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think it's important to be readable to the public.

 

[NairWizard]

I think it's important to be readable to the public.

I was imagining that large posts or important ideas/concepts with condensed information would get posted to the public, but minor sub-conversations wouldn't clutter up the topic. e.g., thoughts on Wii Fit Trainer's match-up spread? goes in this topic. Small posts like "What do you guys think of Wii Fit Trainer?" go in the chat. But, in practice I think that'd be hard to pull off since it'd require people to basically type their thoughts twice, and *gasp* do some consolidation of those thoughts.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Im a scrub because online I space Rock Smash not Flare blitz. Gonna grab me? Rock smash. Hit me? Rock Smash. Punish my landing? Rock Smash.
80% of players can't do jack to stop it in all seriousness. Brb living to 327% because I can spam rock smash.

I just hope it is flare blitz instead of a Lucario buff because Zard still has more options then that but if Aura is buffed again...

 

[Shaya]

Not really, u could grab + grab + hop jump- fair-fair to fox at 0% as guaranted combo.

Well no one else can grab grab.
And I thought you said it had nothing to do with combos or whatever, you say rush down and movement mechanics yet that all has to do with balance choices, not animation lengths or speed...
If you stay in the air (FULL HOP!!!! HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT) you're getting that second forward air. In fact I get that second forward air like all the time, on practically every character, at most percent :>

Anyway, now I'm upset because I realised my cup of coffee has gone cold, damn you cruel world, you have outplayed me again!

 

[Thinkaman]

If I could have any super power, it would be the ability to spontaneously make people have money matches. And get to watch.

 

[NairWizard]

If I could have any super power, it would be the ability to spontaneously make people have money matches. And get to watch.

Shaya vs. ellord grand finals Apex 2015?

 

[Thinkaman]

Shaya vs. ellord grand finals Apex 2015?

I think we're on the same page.

 

[ellord]

Mission cup coffe accomplished. What do you mean by animation lengths or speed? Isn't it calculated in frame.

Shaya vs. ellord grand finals Apex 2015?

Nah, no money to go to apex.

 

[Shaya]

I'm hopefully in cali early december. Watch out for GETTING CRUSHED by diddy kong central. I'll be pretty happy if the gap between myself and tyrant isn't larger than it was in Brawl :D

If I were to have any super power it would be
"Any person who talks about Marth in Smash 4 must have spent at least a week at the Marth boards first"

 

[Luco]

Shaya vs. ellord grand finals Apex 2015?

But everyone in Australia's broke all the time, don'tcha know?

I wouldn't be opposed to a skype group that has these discussions in a more real time format but it's up to peeps.

 

[ellord]

I'm curious to see how fast you can play as marth main.

 

[Mr. Johan]

We all know a Robin player will be ready to say "Checkmate" at Apex when he receives his first place me- oh

Well, the Duck Hunt player will be ready to snicker at all those who placed belo- oh

At least the Sonic main can say "That was almost too ea"- oh

...Rosalina can observe the mortals below he- oh



I hope this patch turns out good

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ok so apparently the segment @ Nidtendofreak posted didn't give the full story.

At 3:36 Zard is unable to pierce through an uncharged Lucario Aura Sphere and I assumed the worst. http://youtu.be/boUgqfX8uqM?t=3m36s

HOWEVER...

at 3:50 Zard is clearly able to pierce through another (slightly charged?) Aura Sphere. http://youtu.be/boUgqfX8uqM?t=3m49s

No idea what's going on but Flare Blitz still seems to have its projectile piercing properties at least.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Ok so apparently the segment @ Nidtendofreak posted didn't give the full story.

At 3:36 Zard is unable to pierce through an uncharged Lucario Aura Sphere and I assumed the worst. http://youtu.be/boUgqfX8uqM?t=3m36s

HOWEVER...

at 3:50 Zard is clearly able to pierce through another (slightly charged?) Aura Sphere. http://youtu.be/boUgqfX8uqM?t=3m49s

No idea what's going on but Flare Blitz still seems to have its projectile piercing properties at least.

I'm not sure, at 3:50 it looked like he just hit Lucario before the Aura Sphere came out.

Also from what everyone was saying I thought the Aura Sphere beat Flare Blitz clean, but it just acts as if the projectile is a valid target to blow Charizard up on. I'm...not sure how to feel about this but it's not what I expected.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'm not sure, at 3:50 it looked like he just hit Lucario before the Aura Sphere came out.

Also from what everyone was saying I thought the Aura Sphere beat Flare Blitz clean, but it just acts as if the projectile is a valid target to blow Charizard up on. I'm...not sure how to feel about this but it's not what I expected.

The Aura Sphere definitely came out. If you pause right at 3:51 you can see the hitbox right in front of him.

Plus Flare Blitz does 9% total if it connects. Notice how he went from 182% to 195%. That's an extra 4% which is exactly how much an uncharged Aura Sphere does.

 

[MachoCheeze]

The Aura Sphere definitely came out. If you pause right at 3:51 you can see the hitbox right in front of him.

Plus Flare Blitz does 9% total if it connects. Notice how he went from 182% to 195%. That's an extra 4% which is exactly how much an uncharged Aura Sphere does.

Could it be possible that you just have to time Flare Blitz more precisely to get the full effect of it going through projectiles?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Could it be possible that you just have to time Flare Blitz more precisely to get the full effect of it going through projectiles?

I suggested on the Zard boards that perhaps Flare Blitz only has armor towards the beginning of the animation now but it's just a guess.

Nobody really knows what's going on.

 

[chipndip]

If anything, Marth could use a throw he could combo into f-air off of. That way he could get tipper dmg at best, but it won't be that easy to KO off of it. Maybe make it a low to mid % combo. Maybe one for u-air, but that would be low % only. Throw combos could be a great way to buff almost any char.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Alternate explanation: Flare Blitz does AOE damage on impact, and the Aura Sphere was close enough for Lucario to still get hit.

 

[Lavani]

The AoE hit does 15% base in the 3DS version but Lucario took the full 20% in that clip.

With what we've seen so far I think only beating out projectiles early in the animation seems likely.

EDIT: Yeah, looking at it slowed down, Charizard clearly hits the Aura Sphere first, suffers hitstop for a bit, then keeps going on to hit Lucario with both the physical impact and AoE.

 

[Conda]

How are we feeling about TETHER GRABS in smash 4? They seems to be heavily buffed in speed and recovery, so are TLink and Samus able to utilize grabs more reliably do we think? Hypothetical of course, since there aren't (afaik) top players championing them at tournaments yet.