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Character Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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Kinslayer
Smash Apprentice
His grab doesn't suck at all, his grab isnt slow, has range, and is good for positioning. Simply because you can't combo off somethings doesn't make it bad. Also you're out of you're mind if you're trying to tell me yoshi's air moves are bad. Neutral air, back air, down air, are all good. You can short hop down air and cross people up with the momentum very well, cross up back air, hop up b, etc. just watch a tourney yoshi player and you'll see his options aren't as limited as you make them sound.
Also, we shouldn't lag If you're in Texas man.
@chaos_Leader: lucario shouldn't get jack for losing aura because rage+aura is insane and toning it down a bit would still leave him in a really good spot. As long as he gets better while losing he will bee crazy. His normals have melee fighter reach and solid amounts of prio on tilts
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1) Didn't say the aerials were bad. They're good...well...b-air is "decent", but yea. Approaching with them isn't the greatest of moves, is all, unless you cross-up or d-air their shields.
2) Idk, man. When I need a strong throw game, I switch to Pit. Yoshi's just leaves him so open...and the standing one is HORRENDOUS, period. Dashing one is similar to other tether grabs, but still slow overall.
3) They aren't limited options. Just..."quirky". Limited would be Palutena. The thing is that they aren't mindless like Shiek's usual flowchart of "If anything -> press nearly anything".
4) I'll be in the shower, then I'll pm you when I'm ready for some sparring. That'll probably be in an hour or so, like 7:05 to 7:15 central time.
The former
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LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
And this ladies and gentlemen is how actual progress is made! Being proactive! I wanna know when this thread is made. I'm usually good at logistics.That's not the kinda "work" that's off-putting to some. I think the real concern is about the efficiency, the execution, and the implementation of customs in a real life tournament setting. Sure it sounds relatively painless on paper, but when you start factoring people into the equation...
Y'know, **** this. @Thinkaman , @Conda, @ whomever, why don't we get a separate topic going and start brainstorming ways to streamline customs on a macro-sized scale. We don't need to clutter up the thread anymore with this talk.
Smooth Criminal
If only I could justify infracting people for saying "marth's range was nerfed".
I think I've personally finally killed "I can play more aggressive with Lucina xD", but this "Marths range is shorter" bull **** is a whole different beast because it's a widespread INCORRECT ASSUMPTION birthed for people before the game even got released and they never bothered to check or ask themselves "am I extremely ignorant?"
Some [new] characters may have more range this game, but that has nothing to do with Marth. He still outdisjoints all of those characters. If you played Marth in Brawl at all you'd know he doesn't outrange anyone not terrible (especially the good characters who ALL out range him), doesn't matter, because he's got a SWORD that's probably LONGER in this game than it was in Brawl.
Pit's sword is SLIGHTLY shorter but most of his attacks have him reaching out a lot further (stepping heavily forward). Big ****ing whoop. Disjoints are vastly superior.
I think I've personally finally killed "I can play more aggressive with Lucina xD", but this "Marths range is shorter" bull **** is a whole different beast because it's a widespread INCORRECT ASSUMPTION birthed for people before the game even got released and they never bothered to check or ask themselves "am I extremely ignorant?"
Some [new] characters may have more range this game, but that has nothing to do with Marth. He still outdisjoints all of those characters. If you played Marth in Brawl at all you'd know he doesn't outrange anyone not terrible (especially the good characters who ALL out range him), doesn't matter, because he's got a SWORD that's probably LONGER in this game than it was in Brawl.
Pit's sword is SLIGHTLY shorter but most of his attacks have him reaching out a lot further (stepping heavily forward). Big ****ing whoop. Disjoints are vastly superior.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-moveset-discussion.368256/
^There already is a topic discussing customs (that should be sticky'd, IMO).
But I think it's ok to discuss them here too: after all, customs are part of the characters, and this topic obviously discusses characters.
As for banning them: I think it's best to not do that in the long run. However, there is something that TO's will need to keep in mind if custom movesets are something they plan to run in their tourneys: time.
One problem that has been adressed in regards to the Wii U version is obviously how long they take to unlock. This isn't due to "laziness," as one user above mentioned, it's more due to the random nature of how they're unlocked; i.e., when you get a custom move as a reward, you get a random one. Even worse, you can get duplicates of the moves you already have unlocked. I can't really blame a TO for not wanting to sit around unlocking every single one of them for the benefit of every contestant, not to mention making sure every setup has them unlocked.
Some ways to solve this would be with the 3DS version: just load your moveset in the system, and have it ready to go there. However, this presents yet another time problem, this one having to do with time management of a tournament schedule:
Ignoring how they're unlocked, setting up each moveset takes time. On 3DS, this isn't a big problem: you should already have these moves set up. But in Wii U? TO's will have to account for players doing this in between their matches: i.e. the custom movesets players desire to use will not necessarily be in the Wii U already, and players will need to take time either:
- Transferring from 3DS to Wii U
- Setting up themselves in the system (in the case of the participant having no 3DS)
^note the above video too. There are also only 10 slots for every character that you can have. You also can't see which customs are equipped in whichever slot, so even if your moveset is already loaded in by another player, you have to go in and manually check it's your moveset. This is time needed in between matches to do these tasks, time which will add up.
Despite me pointing out all this stuff about time, I'm not against custom moves. They keep players on their toes, it lets you fix issues your characters would otherwise have with their default moveset, and it introduces more possibilities to experiment with. While obviously not all of them will end up useful (lol at Peach's Up2 with no parasol), some of them really improve some characters (Ike and DK come to mind). I only bring this up because there have been Smash Bros tournaments already that were infamous for not staying on schedule. Hence, if Custom Movesets are going to be ran at tourneys, the TO's of this generation of Smash tourneys will have to be ready to plan around this.
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If Marth's range got buffed, I'd die of laughter. I doubt another swordsman like Ike would be very impressed when Marth's immediate horizontal reach tools already out range him. I doubt DK would like having his intangible limbs which are already outdisjointed by Marth's sword suddenly not even requiring precise spacing.
Adding extra range to Marth is going to buff all his match ups universally like 5-10 points. That's kinda stupid. Fine tune him in other ways, he really doens't need much when every engine change benefits him (like how tipper hitboxes now outprioritise non-tipper hitboxes like in Melee; making all of our tippers about 1/3rd or so larger than they were in Brawl).
Adding extra range to Marth is going to buff all his match ups universally like 5-10 points. That's kinda stupid. Fine tune him in other ways, he really doens't need much when every engine change benefits him (like how tipper hitboxes now outprioritise non-tipper hitboxes like in Melee; making all of our tippers about 1/3rd or so larger than they were in Brawl).
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Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
How would one go about improving on Lucina without giving her tipper hitboxes?
Maybe give her a greater rate of DPS with her individual moves, so that she lays on more shieldstun and thus grant her more safety to justify a lack of tipper spot? Then maybe weaken her powerful KO moves a smidgen to compensate for the greater DPS?
Maybe give her a greater rate of DPS with her individual moves, so that she lays on more shieldstun and thus grant her more safety to justify a lack of tipper spot? Then maybe weaken her powerful KO moves a smidgen to compensate for the greater DPS?
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Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 1,358
If anything, Marth wants to actually be able to follow up throws again. Increased knockback of D-throw was his biggest nerf imo.
Kinslayer
Smash Apprentice
I'd say just give here a bit more block stun so she can play aggressively as I feel she was intended. Right now she just plays like a poor man's Marth.
@
Deathcarter
: We can already follow up off forward and down throw.
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Better throws would be magical. Down throw legitimately feels worthless to me.
At low percent up throw seems better.... at other percent, fthrow always seems to be a better positioning choice (or up throw still).
No real way to change her without either potentially making her better than Marth or drastically altering her. You can't just take a winning design/formula like Marth and take away all the skill based applications of them without balancing them as a definitively weaker character. I kinda applaud Sakurai for it.
At low percent up throw seems better.... at other percent, fthrow always seems to be a better positioning choice (or up throw still).
This strays from what's going to happen in this patch. I feel she's been designed to be a worse Marth. Every nuance to Marth is there and better this game, while Lucina doesn't get anything. Other than perhaps her body hits of smash attacks having more knock back.
No real way to change her without either potentially making her better than Marth or drastically altering her. You can't just take a winning design/formula like Marth and take away all the skill based applications of them without balancing them as a definitively weaker character. I kinda applaud Sakurai for it.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Pretty sure Pit's blades are the same length, just fatter.
^ Could be possible, I stared at them for a long time, the extra fatness of scimitar swords could be warping perception either way. Anecdotal instances of Marth dtilt beating Pit ftilt is what I'm otherwise going off (maybe marth's dtilt is faster?), but Marth still has his janky sub 1 frame (lol 1/4 training mode) upwards stab on it which does give some 'fake' extended reach.
Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 1,358
It was most likely equipment that Sakurai was most worried about when it comes to online. Custom moves and Mii Fighters are unfortunate side casualties due to Sakurai's idiotic decision to lump all the custom parts (equipment, moves, & Mii outfits) together.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Well, his Dtilt is a touch slower now. Basically every move of his has been changed, actually, so it's hard to compare.
ellord
Smash Apprentice
Just give me back the old rush down Marth plzzzzz, i don't care about range (as long it's higher than average), damage or finisher.
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What's Marth achieving with "old rush down" that he cannot already achieve in this game?
You want to wavedash and forward smash more? Get better with dash inputs and true pivots.
Otherwise I don't really know what you want when Marth's frame data is still mostly the same as previous games.
Meta Knight is the rushdown Marth, unfortunately he's excessively weaker in this game. I think you just need to work on your timing/buffering/input habits and you'll stop feeling like Marth is choppy. If you understood how his frame data flows this game, those 'choppyness' he gets is compensated with having a lot more variety in short hop options than... the entirety of the cast; you just cannot rely on buffering in certain situations, you have to rely on good timing.
Like sh fair; I would love to be able to buffer a shield or landing attack, but the attack ends before his short hop does. It doesn't have an auto cancel so I cannot just fast fall it (if any change were to be made that would make Marth feel infinitely better, but at the cost of likely too much of a literal buff, would be having his brawl auto cancel on fair back, which is frame 24), but in turn I can still do actions in the air without landing first. For every wifi event where I air dodge instead of timing a landing into shield, I cry/die a little, because I don't have to even think about that issue on practically every other character; it's a minor technical shortfall at best - with time and practise you'll get over it.
You want to wavedash and forward smash more? Get better with dash inputs and true pivots.
Otherwise I don't really know what you want when Marth's frame data is still mostly the same as previous games.
Meta Knight is the rushdown Marth, unfortunately he's excessively weaker in this game. I think you just need to work on your timing/buffering/input habits and you'll stop feeling like Marth is choppy. If you understood how his frame data flows this game, those 'choppyness' he gets is compensated with having a lot more variety in short hop options than... the entirety of the cast; you just cannot rely on buffering in certain situations, you have to rely on good timing.
Like sh fair; I would love to be able to buffer a shield or landing attack, but the attack ends before his short hop does. It doesn't have an auto cancel so I cannot just fast fall it (if any change were to be made that would make Marth feel infinitely better, but at the cost of likely too much of a literal buff, would be having his brawl auto cancel on fair back, which is frame 24), but in turn I can still do actions in the air without landing first. For every wifi event where I air dodge instead of timing a landing into shield, I cry/die a little, because I don't have to even think about that issue on practically every other character; it's a minor technical shortfall at best - with time and practise you'll get over it.
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I think all Marth needs is AC Nair back and maybe slight landing lag reductions (it's kinda silly Ike's landing lag is pretty much the same as Marth's). As much as I dreaded his Nair, I was legit sad at how neutered it was lol. Anything that makes my friend go back to Marth over Rosalina (blegh) would be welcome.
Lucina just needs a little bit more damage, a little bit more knockback growth, and a little less hitlag. Then she will be a viable alternative instead of a slight handicap.
Lucina just needs a little bit more damage, a little bit more knockback growth, and a little less hitlag. Then she will be a viable alternative instead of a slight handicap.
ChikoLad
Purple Boi
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
- Messages
- 23,084
I still stand by the idea that the dev team should add a lobby for customs called "For Science". :V
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I don't really see how you play Marth and feel like you have complaints unless it's because you're looking at him through the lens of expecting him to be in the top 20% of the cast every single game.
NairWizard
Somewhere
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2014
- Messages
- 1,947
Dev team would probably also allow custom equipment there, which is really unfortunate as I'd like a mode to test customs online WITHOUT testing custom equips too.
ellord
Smash Apprentice
No, i mean his brawl speed.
Meh, sh nair with a buffered fast fall lands at around the perfect time (for the move/hitbox to end), to the point where I feel this may have been intentional. Otherwise as a move which can horse and carrot opponents within the air, and in some cases lose to the ground it's still very good.
I agree it was heavily neutered. Like holy **** everything facet of the move was nerfed. Marth's fair got off easy in comparison (and hence it's still probably the best forward in the game tbh; the less damage on it probably means others edge it out though; oh yeah *sheik*).
What do you mean by Brawl speed? Tell me exactly what you mean because it isn't plain to me, someone who's already put like 1000 matches into this character and spent 6 years playing him in Brawl - I'm struggling.
He lands faster from a short hop than he did in Brawl. Every other movement spec is the same or better for him. Attacks are mostly the same (at least in start up). He is still able to achieve safety on shield with his attacks in multiple positions. Nearly everything else I could possibly think of that you would want doesn't work at high/top level in Brawl anyway.
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ellord
Smash Apprentice
Playing for 6 year and don't see the speed difference O_O. Overall speed of everycharacter has been increase while Marth the opposed and you didn't notice it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm, maybe because I'm going by objective data, like personally sitting down and counting frame data for him in two games already (multiple ****ing times). You can achieve all the same things, but if you just want to press forward air twice every time instead of timing a landing action, you're bad at the character.
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ellord
Smash Apprentice
Just take brawl, spam any move for 10 sec then take smash 3ds and spam the same move, u won't complete the same sequence in 10 sec.
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And that's when I stop. Thank you for ignorance.
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ellord
Smash Apprentice
And thank you for never playing marth.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
So, to spread this around more:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/632937-super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds/70588877
Flare Blitz getting the nerf hammer. Either that or Aura got buffed.
That's pretty stupid in either case.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/632937-super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds/70588877
Flare Blitz getting the nerf hammer. Either that or Aura got buffed.
That's pretty stupid in either case.
ellord
Smash Apprentice
I said 10 seconde. How can you miss it in a so little sentence -_-
Iron Kraken
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2014
- Messages
- 381
The reason this is happening is because the vast majority of people who play Smash are casual players who play 4-player battles with items. Most people barely know how to block.
I imagine that in these casual matches, Flare Blitz was destroying in 4-player battles.
This is a reminder that the game will not be balanced only with regards to top level play in mind, but also with casual play in mind.
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Why are you picking a fight about game data with a:
- BBR member
- moderator
- marth main
- who collected Marth's frame data
On topic: Huh, I just started watching Log Horizon; dat database. What a coincidence.
ellord
Smash Apprentice
So you saying marth has exactly the same frame data on everymove? Im sure i can proove the opposite.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Odd I don't see anything "wrong" with Marth for him to need anything.
ellord
Smash Apprentice
Lack of approach against campy because of his range/speed nerf.
This is the Internet, friend. "Need" and "want" are basically interchangeable, it seems.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
No ****ing way.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Because of Equipment.
Looks like Zard just doesnt go through projectiles anymore, thats all it is.
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ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Please dont nerf Flare Blitz nothing wrong with it
However if you do....then we'll all be using Dragon Rush Q_Q.
The Zard will not be silenced.
On the other hand. If aura was buffed.
/tableflip.jpg.
As far as approaching campy.
Approaching in general is a risk. Against Campers, you do the exact same thing Shulk doesGo in speed Monado and blitz grab use an aerial to cancel em out and fake landings
However if you do....then we'll all be using Dragon Rush Q_Q.
The Zard will not be silenced.
On the other hand. If aura was buffed.
/tableflip.jpg.
As far as approaching campy.
Approaching in general is a risk. Against Campers, you do the exact same thing Shulk does
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