Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

****ing robin and levin sword of a million knockback. So mad at myself.

At first I thought that Robin was low tier, because out of all the weaknesses that a character can have, a slow grab (i.e., with obscene endlag) with short reach is just about the worst. It's like bringing only rock and scissors to a rock-paper-scissors match.

But this right here is the reason that I changed my mind and actually believe that Robin is top 3. The Levin Sword is so amazing: disjointed, strong, and swings in wide arcs. Against characters like Jigglypuff or Peach, you can just Levin f-air repeatedly to gain stage control, and very few can consistently resist your numerous kill moves (DACUS, d-smash, up-air...oh, and Thoron, but I'm talking about the Levin Sword here) even though you basically don't have a grab.

Once the Levin Sword goes out you get a fast projectile that can kill, and it recharges pretty fast, so it's not like your opponent can just rush you down at that point. If it weren't for the projectile this would be a legitimate weakness. Best thing is that you can use your B specials while holding the sword.

Also, while I'm talking about Robin, her shield pressure is great. Elfire + Arcthunder + tomes/swords and massive disjoints, plus the threat of Distant Nosferatu (which conveniently has the same range as Elfire) has shields going, "See ya boss, better bring back your roll habit" (and then they roll toward you during Elfire pressure and you read it and f-smash).

If custom Palutena weren't so absurd I would peg this character as the best in the game. People will probably disagree, because of fast characters, but I honestly don't see Robin having that much trouble with fast characters besides Palutena. Learn to love that disjoint, and don't dash, just walk.

 

[san.]

Does Levin deal more knockback than aerials of similar %?

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm slowly starting to come to grips with the fact that Robin's extensive kit necessitated his/her horrendous grab.

Top 3 is definitely beyond him/her, but i'm definitely starting to feel comfortable with the notion that he/she is top 10.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Does Levin deal more knockback than aerials of similar %?

Quick testing in Training has Ike killing Mario from the Omega Battlefield's stage with his 12% Uair at 138, no Rage, no VI.

Robin's 13% Levin Uair kills Mario at 123, same conditions.

Not bad for a quick aerial that can be done from a Short Hop.

The range is obscene too. Robin can stand a full character-and-a-half length away and hit with the first frames of the hitbox. Plus the sourspot of the move can combo into another Uair or Bair at around 100-120 if the first Uair is auto-canceled.

Levin Uair is just fantastic.

 

[san.]

Ike's Uair is 11%. Good to know either way
Edit: His 15% bair seemed to kill as early as Ganondorf's 16% fair, though it may be partly due to the angle. No slouch in knockback for sure.

 

[NairWizard]

I'd be curious to see his up-air vs. Diddy's (how much % does Diddy's up-air do again?) but I am at work and away from a 3DS at the moment.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Weird, Training had it at 12% a few times. Ah well.

The sheer utility of the Levin aerials is the reason I'm usually jumping with Robin if I'm at neutral. He's got an aerial for pretty much any situation. Uair and Bair for the quick kills, and Fair for just racking damage up - Levin Fair can chain into itself at low percents, and with it packing 11% a hit, that racks up quick.

Dair is pretty much the black sheep. 10% spikespot, 12% sourspot, 5% sexspot, long endlag, and Elwind's a safer spiking tool. No real reason to use it. It does have a quicker startup compared to pretty much every other spike aside from Ganon's though, at least.

I'd be curious to see his up-air vs. Diddy's (how much % does Diddy's up-air do again?) but I am at work and away from a 3DS at the moment.

8%, and it kills at 156 ground level. But Diddy's Uair's deadly because of the trappings Diddy can do from DThrow.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I'm looking at his tilts in the lab right now. His hitboxes are melee fighter range and his tilts aren't slow.

Lucario has melee fighter range, but in most of his kit he lacks the speed (either in mobility, or windup/cooldown/both) to do as other dedicated melee fighters would.

Lucario's Dtilt/Utilt aren't slow by any measure, and Utilt swings a nice arc around Luc (one of his better moves tbh). Dtilt has a teeny tiny hitbox just at his foot, but because of its speed, I can live with that. Ftilt is a little more problematic to use with its windup/cooldown. Luc's jab combo is particularly troublesome, since the end leaves him so wide open for punishment. It's actually a lot of Luc's aerials that are reeeally underwhelming. Lucario practically has to be standing on the opponent to land Dair at all. Nair lingers for a bit and has minimal landing lag, but landing it means getting right up against the opponent (Nair's hitboxes do not line up with the visuals at all), meaning easy shield-punishing, or easy spacing-punishing. Fair/Uair are... okay, not great, but okay, and can be used for follow-ups from other moves. Uair can be used as a KO vs. lighter chars in a pinch, if the opponent can be chased high and doesn't have great options for below them. Bair hurts, but is exceptionally tricky for Luc to land with very long windup and a hitbox that lasts all of 3 frames or so, which is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for that kind of firepower as far as I'm concerned.

Command grab?

It is substantially safer than rest though. If you whiff you still get a fairly decent attack.

Of course, by virtue of being a grab it also goes through shields, which never hurts.

Is Force Palm safer? Yes, but that's compared to Luc's smash attacks and Bair in the KO arsenal, which almost never land without excellent prediction/reads. It is punishable if whiffed, necessitates being nose-to-nose with the opponent to get the command grab (difficult vs. good spacing chars), but it is one of Luc's better kill options. I personally have had somewhat better results with Aura Sphere sniping after punting the opponent off-stage, but that's just me.

 

[NairWizard]

8%, and it kills at 156 ground level. But Diddy's Uair's deadly because of the trappings Diddy can do from DThrow.

Yeah, I know why Diddy's u-air is deadly. The reason I ask is because although Diddy does less % for sure, he'll be much higher up when he lands a u-air compared to Robin, so it's probably pretty comparable.

I really, really wish you could Levin n-air btw.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Yeah, I know why Diddy's u-air is deadly. The reason I ask is because although Diddy does less % for sure, he'll be much higher up when he lands a u-air compared to Robin, so it's probably pretty comparable.

Gotcha.

On Omega Battlefield, Diddy's guaranteed Dthrow -> Uair chain starts killing at 113, no Rage, no VI. Mario is sent a little ways above the left tree in the background from the Dthrow before the Uair hits.

Robin's Levin Uair kills at 100-105 at the same height, with some variance due to being imprecise.

So it's slightly stronger than the chain. Not too significantly, but noticeable.

I really, really wish you could Levin n-air btw.

That would probably ruin his gimping potential though.

 

[NairWizard]

Gotcha.

On Omega Battlefield, Diddy's guaranteed Dthrow -> Uair chain starts killing at 113, no Rage, no VI. Mario is sent a little ways above the left tree in the background from the Dthrow before the Uair hits.

Robin's Levin Uair kills at 100-105 at the same height, with some variance due to being imprecise.

So it's slightly stronger than the chain. Not too significantly, but noticeable.



That would probably ruin his gimping potential though.

Cool, thanks for that info.

Btw, d-throw > u-air isn't guaranteed. VI back into Diddy (toward his back, that is). At best he can get a f-air on you, but f-air won't kill.

 

[Mr. Johan]

For true comparison's sake, at 113%, Levin Uair reliably kills Mario from the apex of his full hop, which is about a head shorter from where Mario would be after Diddy's Dthrow, and will start killing with no VI and Rage at a little lower height. Levin Uair is pretty beastly.

I honestly have Robin down as top 12-15 due to having issues with rushdown characters and characters with low profiles while dashing (HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO FIGHT THAT FROG) that I personally don't see getting any better, but 15 out of 51 isn't bad at all.

 

[Ticker]

But this right here is the reason that I changed my mind and actually believe that Robin is top 3. The Levin Sword is so amazing: disjointed, strong, and swings in wide arcs. Against characters like Jigglypuff or Peach, you can just Levin f-air repeatedly to gain stage control, and very few can consistently resist your numerous kill moves (DACUS, d-smash, up-air...oh, and Thoron, but I'm talking about the Levin Sword here) even though you basically don't have a grab.

I find that roll-cancelled grabs have decent range on them. I also believe that while not top 3, once the Wii u version hits, he will be top 10. I'm really hopping that with the GameCube controller, it will be easier to utilize Robins foxtrot and perfect pivots to help out his game.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Damn mad as hell. My worst opposition on Shulk so far has legit always been a Robin,DDD, or god be damned Samus.
Sheik? Whatever. Yoshi? Pfft. Zero suit? Whos that. Ness? Smess. Falcon? Falcan't.
Throw a robin in my face though "oh meh gerd, I forgot how to edgeguard" and 3ds controls want to fight me everytime I want to shift my shield and go for a spot dodge. No I dont want to spot dodge arc thunder. lemme just shift shield downwards.

Never died to a U-air in my life bro. B-airs, goofing and trying to spot-dodge a Levin F-smash only for lingering hitbox to dispatch me to the side anyways for a potential gimp. Bad Shield drops into thoron and forcibly rolling because I can't shield shift on this 3ds for the life of me. 100% of this is my fault though...which is what makes me mad.

Robin top 3? I don't agree, I see the flaws in my game, they're just allowing that levin sword to put in work. Shulk can fight everyone.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I really underrated Robin when I first tried him/her due to the speed issues, but as pointed out above, I think he's top 10 in this game. I can't really see top 3 though: we can't ignore the problems he/she has against fighters who can rush him/her down effectively. I think his/her speed is ultimately what will keep Robin from being top 3, IMO, due to the problems he/she has against fast characters who can harass him/her before giving Robin a chance to do something.

Also, I gotta agree Palutena is insane with customs. Lightweight is a godsend for her (hehehe). I dunno about Palu being the best: maybe a perfect theoretical Palutena, but one has yet to make a significant win with her at a tourney to convince me.

And since he got brought up:

Damn, this guy's underrated by so many and I don't know why. He's tough to get used to, but Shulk has got to have the best range in the game, + a ton of versatility with his Monado arts, and probably one of the best edeguarding games among the cast with Jump, Smash, and massive air game disjoints. I think he's among the top 20 of the cast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Robin is cool. Not top 3. Maybe top ten.

 

[Shaya]

I like Pit, he's a stepping stone before you play Marth. His strengths over Marth are ease of use, a good projectile and amazing grab game. Getting the kill seems to be a lot of Pit's shortfall in theory, but in practise those kill moves are so massive in size and generally pretty great start up that Pit can just keep playing neutral until an opportunity for them arises, forward throw is will eventually clinch it too. All of his aerials auto cancel through short hops, has a good down air (not many do), forward tilt is a great powerful tool; reminds me of Wolf's from Brawl except without the horrendous lag.

Point blank arrows gets you combos, arrows are still good/easy to control, he can gimp/harass off stage really really easily, he's probably up there with Pikachu, a solid Pit playing near the ledge while you're recovering should be a lot of damage or a stock.

He also has a rush down dash attack, except without the extended hitbox frames (compared to most dash attacks, not really good enough to beat rolls/spot dodges reliably), which gives him basically the best punishing tool in the series given to characters that always end up mid tier or better but harder to use.

Overall, really solid I'm sure. I think his hitboxes are what may let him down in a few match ups, I think he is a spacing character, but really only around his jab/tilts and advantageous position aerials.

Also neutral air cross over on shield on dedede? If you read it, before you shield just turn around first (and depending on whatever you can buffer a turn around out of shield and possibly punish him anyway).



~~~~~

Robin's is such an overloaded kit, it's crazy. Robin is Marth with projectiles, with less mobility. Her levin sword is just ludicrous really, and then they have their great projectiles that make Samus upset (she'd trade it all for a Levin Arm Cannon).
Down Throw is one of the best combo throws in the game. Back Throw isn't much of a kill move as I thought, but it's huge distance + good damage gives you a free thoron charge all the time.
With Rosalina potentially getting pegged down a bit, it's possible that Robin will take the spot as the most powerful long-range zoner in the game. This character really doesn't have solid weaknesses, just a balance of less potent options to god-like ones.

 

[NairWizard]

Slow mobility doesn't translate to problems vs. rushdown. Slow *attack speed* translates to problems vs. rushdown. To get a character off of you, you aren't going to try to run away (unless that's your gameplan in general; it's not a bad gameplan when you're Robin), you're going to hit him away. Robin doesn't need to keep characters away even though charging Thoron+ or Thoron is so good. Rapid jab and gentleman jab are both not only fast but also completely disjointed. Elwind jab also has a hitbox behind Robin; crossing up this character between jab and d-smash is very difficult. Even spacing tilts against him/her is very difficult--her tilts are all disjointed as well and fairly fast (d-tilt is what? frame 6? according to the Robin boards). Robin has no problems facing rushdown characters; if you're encountering problems vs. rushdown you definitely should be using more of your tilts and your jab. Pivot f-tilt is fantastic on Robin, and n-air and retreating levin f-air (very hard on the 3ds) are extremely strong tools against rushdown as well.

What slow mobility actually does affect is ability to get in, but Robin doesn't need to get in unless she's facing a character with a reflector, and even then it doesn't really matter because of the angle at which Elfire is reflected. Thunder+ vs. reflector is a scary battle of reaction time. Anyway, getting in when you have the long-range that Robin does is trivial, because you can get in at your own pace. None of the characters without reflectors gain anything by keeping Robin out. They want to get in, but once they're in, there aren't any major weaknesses in Robin's game to exploit except for her grab.

The grab *is* a legitimate weakness, I'll grant that. It's just that the rest of Robin's kit is so good that she doesn't need a good grab. When she does get a grab the reward from her grab is actually ridiculous because charging Thoron or Thoron+ is ridiculous by itself, so any positional advantage that she secures from throwing someone away from her translates directly to a buff in the tools that she has available.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Robin's is such an overloaded kit, it's crazy. Robin is Marth with projectiles, with less mobility. Her levin sword is just ludicrous really, and then they have their great projectiles that make Samus upset (she'd trade it all for a Levin Arm Cannon).
Down Throw is one of the best combo throws in the game. Back Throw isn't much of a kill move as I thought, but it's huge distance + good damage gives you a free thoron charge all the time.
With Rosalina potentially getting pegged down a bit, it's possible that Robin will take the spot as the most powerful long-range zoner in the game. This character really doesn't have solid weaknesses, just a balance of less potent options to god-like ones.

Robin's grab game is noticeably below average. Slow startup grab, and his throws are not very rewarding. D-throw is at best a mixup, doesn't actually lead to much of anything guaranteed. None of his throws are serious KO moves either.

Robin is very vulnerable to both juggles and edgeguards, and without Arcfire is pretty bad in footsies outside of having a reasonably good D-tilt and B-air. Rest of his moves are not exactly super fast or safe in midrange.

Not totally sure I agree with your assessment overall.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Curious to see read peoples thoughts on marth.

If you had to buff him, how would you do it and why? Would you nerf him? How and why?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Robins footsies are El/Arc Thunder. Dat move is serious.

 

[Bowserlick]

So is Bowser top ten? Fifteen?

Can't wait to play him on the Wii U.

 

[LancerStaff]

Curious to see read peoples thoughts on marth.

If you had to buff him, how would you do it and why? Would you nerf him? How and why?

I'd keep him the same for quite awhile. I mean, he's nowhere near as good as before, but still very workable and has much more emphasis on his unique aspects in Shield Breaker and the tipper mechanic. There's tons of other characters that should be buffed before him.

 

[ChikoLad]

From what I've heard in the Competitive Character Discussion topic, Marth actually might be really good in time. He seemingly out ranges a lot of characters, among other things (like the obvious tipper).

 

[Shaya]

Robin's grab game is noticeably below average. Slow startup grab, and his throws are not very rewarding. D-throw is at best a mixup, doesn't actually lead to much of anything guaranteed. None of his throws are serious KO moves either.

Robin is very vulnerable to both juggles and edgeguards, and without Arcfire is pretty bad in footsies outside of having a reasonably good D-tilt and B-air. Rest of his moves are not exactly super fast or safe in midrange.

Not totally sure I agree with your assessment overall.

I feel like you haven't played them much at all after reading this ;\
Dash grab is 8 frames, it's quite big; I consider power shields in my play/analysis of characters which are probably going to get focused on at high/top level. Down throw is getting so many easy up/forward airs all the time that I don't know what you're smoking. All I know is that most characters at 80% down throw end up right at where robin full hops from, with a move that kills people off the top at 90%

Jab is 4 frames, the 1-2 is safe on hit (and on shield for a lot of characters) and you can mix in 3 or punish their shield/roll.
Side B out of a dash. Broken.
Neutral air - very fast and big.
Juggle traps are cool and I agree landing is probably the only weakness that seems problematic. Up-B's start up is faster than reaction speed though and the amount of free fall momentum they have is pretty big, kinda a gambit; but I see it work for myself and others (Thanks @Raziek for the tip, life's been grander using them ever since).

 

[BBC7]

In a vacuum, there are a lot of true combos in this game. jab1-jab2-multijab-finisher is a true combo. If someone were to list all the true combos in the game, you'd tell them to stop midway through.

I think what you're reaching for here is a comparative statement.

@ Emblem Lord - Honestly, I think shield breaker is too good. Comparatively, DK's headbutt is harder to land and does 90% shield damage while you can charge yours for a slight second and break every shield. I would nerf its shield damage slightly so that you need to charge it a little more to break 100% shields.

Yes, I was reaching for a comparative statement.

As for Marth, I think the Shield Breaker name is just a little too literal of a name. As Locke 06 said, the move does crazy shield damage and isn't even difficult to land or easily punishable. I think that Marth should sacrifice Shield Breaker's shield breaking power for longer range. Even though it sounds a little too much like Marth from Melee or Brawl, when has that ever been a bad thing?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulks range is deceptive, outside of back-air,D-smash and F-smash his range isn't *that* long relative to some other combatants. Play shulk more and you'll start to realize "hey if I don't space this perfectly...his thing is long enough to hit me" then you'll start seeing "if I space this perfectly but whiff? (spot dodge/shield) that move can hit me from where he stands". Shulks is always on that see-saw with his opposition. Now Back-air is long, and Im still surprised at the hits it gets that I didn't even expect to get. Thing is like a ZSS whip.

Arc fire is the second pain outside of the levin Sword. The thunder chain is a pain but arc fire hurts your rush-down/Approach. You can cancel thunder/elthunder with respectable aerials. Now if im in Monado speed? Lol caught him before he even finished the animation but fml otherwise. Arc Fire/Thunder support his grab game.

Robins kit is bloated but thats exactly why the useage system is there.
Shaya said it straight up, Robin *really* makes you want to approach but he doesn't care if you do unlike DHD and I'd say Villager. He is similar to Link in that respect but Robin commands more authority on stage.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If you can Down tilt, you should Jab anyway. Thing's crazy fast for its range and Fire Jab has such a good knockback that he can go right back to zoning.

When I mentioned rushdown, I was referring to Robin's Air->Ground approaches, which are ok at best in my experience. If someone can consistently stay in Robin's face and pop him up, it then becomes quite a bit hard to get back some space. Arcfire's constant 35 degree angle and a terrible Down Air mean all Robin's got to help him down are Fair and Nair, which can be blocked if predicted, Nosferatu, which is slow, and Elwind, which is a gamble. It's why Sheik, Greninja, and Diddy are a mess of a matchup.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Robin doesn't have trashy horizontal movement though so he's not really worried about making an Air-> Ground blunder.
If you mispredict Elwind you lose and Robin gets his reset.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shieldbreaker only does like 2 frames of shieldstun. Its extremely punishable. Just an FYI.

 

[BBC7]

Shieldbreaker only does like 2 frames of shieldstun. Its extremely punishable. Just an FYI.

Extremely punishable when it doesn't break shield, that is. The point is, it breaks shields way too often.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol I broke a shield today with Kirbys stone except my reward was a fully charged Hammer flip which Kills at 30%. Shield breaker is fine, it's got a considerable telegraph, the KB isn't outrageous and the recovery is long enough to punish.

If you're getting shield broken too much you've gotta chalk that up to your playstyle.

Lucina tried to mess with my Kirby, she has 2x my range, faster ground and run speed.
I still don't need to turtle in my Shield.

 

[LancerStaff]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't powershielding prevent shields from breaking?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shields still take damage if you powershield they take significantly less though. You can power shield SB to eat it, but you can't repeatedly take it in even if you PS them all.

 

[DarkKiru]

Been a while since I've seen Marth fight. How quickly does shield breaker come out? I'd imagine you could punish it pretty easily by just spotdodging it.

How much of a charge does it need to shatter your average shield at full health anyway? (when I say average of course I mean most light to midweights, since heavyweights like Bowser and MShield Shulk tend to have ENORMOUS shields)

Edit: Power shielding works as well, forgot about that; shield recovery is only marginally slower than brawls so i don't foresee it becoming a huge issue.

 

[NairWizard]

Shaya said it straight up, Robin *really* makes you want to approach but he doesn't care if you do unlike DHD and I'd say Villager. He is similar to Link in that respect but Robin commands more authority on stage.

Wait, I thought I said that.

edit: checked, and I did, but you're forgiven. I am secretly Shaya's evil twin after all

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shield breaker uncharged does like 75-80% of a shield and ramps up to 100 quick.
Wizard kick does like 60%, same with DK headbutt.
I think pound is 50%ish.
Stone is 40% or something like that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel like you haven't played them much at all after reading this ;\
Dash grab is 8 frames, it's quite big; I consider power shields in my play/analysis of characters which are probably going to get focused on at high/top level. Down throw is getting so many easy up/forward airs all the time that I don't know what you're smoking. All I know is that most characters at 80% down throw end up right at where robin full hops from, with a move that kills people off the top at 90%

Jab is 4 frames, the 1-2 is safe on hit (and on shield for a lot of characters) and you can mix in 3 or punish their shield/roll.
Side B out of a dash. Broken.
Neutral air - very fast and big.
Juggle traps are cool and I agree landing is probably the only weakness that seems problematic. Up-B's start up is faster than reaction speed though and the amount of free fall momentum they have is pretty big, kinda a gambit; but I see it work for myself and others (Thanks @Raziek for the tip, life's been grander using them ever since).

I am just going off what I observed and see from other players. Sure, you can call me out for not playing the character.

Robin may have an okay dashgrab, but remember, he is one of the slowest runners in the game. His Dash Attack is also noticeably riskier than most. Sure, I'm aware you can safely throw out dashgrabs when people shield projectiles, but most people aren't simply going to sit and shield as you trod up.

Okay so cool, you have an okay D-throw trap setup at specific percents, though I'm not certain you factored DI. Is that what you're trying to tell me?

I'm not sold on Robin being top 10 because his weaknesses are very clear. Very low mobility, not very good against juggles or edgeguards (like, throw out ANYTHING when Robin recovers. He doesn't have a lot of options to protect himself offstage), throws are mostly unremarkable, and he relies on very specific pokes in midrange that only cover so many options. Other than that he relies on Elthunder and Arcfire to prevent people from playing footsies with him, because without those tools, his normals by themselves aren't great in midrange. Thoron demands a lot of respect if you don't have a good reflector, yes. I still see the character as noticeably more exploitable than others we've been arguing as scary.

 

[Big O]

I think Robin is easily up there in the top 15. Ranged, safe of block, hitconfirmable combo starters are pretty good. That's all that really needs to be said about him.

I suppose disjointed and lingering hitboxes with generous damage and knockback are nice too. Only real drawback I can think of is having a poor shield grab.

 

[DavemanCozy]

All of the above characters have the mobility and tools to get past Robin's attempts to keep them off him. They have a much easier time doing this too, due to their superior mobility to run circles around him before getting in on him.

I'm not saying that Robin is a bad a character: I think he's one of the best in this game. I can see him being top 10, quite possibly top 5 after reading the above arguments. I still think though, that top 3 is a bit far fetched. I can't imagine why he would be a top 3 char when he has problem matchups against the above.

Shulks range is deceptive, outside of back-air,D-smash and F-smash his range isn't *that* long relative to some other combatants. Play shulk more and you'll start to realize "hey if I don't space this perfectly...his thing is long enough to hit me" then you'll start seeing "if I space this perfectly but whiff? (spot dodge/shield) that move can hit me from where he stands". Shulks is always on that see-saw with his opposition. Now Back-air is long, and Im still surprised at the hits it gets that I didn't even expect to get. Thing is like a ZSS whip.

N-air and F-air are insane too, not just in range but also on how much space they cover. And although Shulk has a sourspot in the beam hitbox, it's still got decent damage and knock-back, not at all like a Melee Roy-bad sourspot.

Shulk's F-air is especially scary: it's basically a Marth F-air with more range. Thing's insanely good for edge-guarding, specially when combined with Jump. N-air is insane too: very little landing lag, covers a very large circle around Shulk, and can be followed up with an F-tilt / U-tilt / D-tilt upon landing.

It is true, you have to space carefully with Shulk to really get the most out of his range. On paper, he's also pretty mediocre: if you all you look at are his default attributes, he seems lackluster. As soon as you take into account the wonderful Monado Art Stances, however, he suddenly becomes one of the most versatile and adaptable characters.