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Character Competitive Impressions

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ChronoPenguin

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F-air is good, N-air while being our typical B&B, has a progressive hitbox, which makes it unusable in quite a few situations given it starts down and makes it way up (and its rather piss offstage).
Thing is Shulks hitboxes are also the reverse of Marth, Shulk capitalizes *most* on you being up close but obviously he has to ignore his sweetspots generally for the purpose of safety.

On paper he's average and I don't mean relative to the cast. The stances are to put you into extremes. He's not exceptional at anything, and stance switches to be an extremity in an aspect. Which is why he can beat (almost) everyone.
 
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Mr. Johan

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:4diddy: :4sheik: :rosalina: :4zss: :4greninja: :4yoshi: :4sonic: :4lucario:

Taking a look at those eight characters, I can't imagine anyone else taking the top 10 spots other than :4peach: and :4falcon:, with :4fox: taking 11th, and Robin having to fight :4pikachu:, :4ness:, :4marth:, :4palutena:, :4littlemac: and :4pit: for the 12th spot (I'm just going to keep adding characters until I'm satisfied :p). It's not that Robin can't beat those nine in the MU, but that they just have an easier time going against the top characters.

Robin's saving grace is that he really doesn't give a damn about what :rosalina: may try to pull and can keep things in his favor against :4lucario: with one Arcfire confirm into Uair. But that's about it, and that former boon may not mean much with her potential nerfs incoming.
 
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Conda

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Getting the kill seems to be a lot of Pit's shortfall in theory, but in practise those kill moves are so massive in size and generally pretty great start up that Pit can just keep playing neutral until an opportunity for them arises
Great post about Pit, but I have to comment on this point specifically. A lot of the characters I play have issues killing at low-moderate percentages, or issues setting up kills. I feel it's not too big an issue in general, but this weakness/quirk DOES mean something of value and weight against characters who can land KOs from neutral at 90-100% ranges. This tends to mean you have bad matchups against them, as you have to outplay and outdamage them quite a bit to meet your KO range. Playing in neutral for this length of time is dangerous when your opponent can land an earlier KO within it than you can.

But yeah otherwise, it's not the worst weakness to have. Characters with kill power require you to play much more carefully with any character, but much moreso when you play a character that generally requires building up higher %s to KO, and/or has a tough time landing KO moves. Racking up damage safely in neutral while not getting hit by your opponent's killmoves is a very good skill to build up if you main a character like this, and a very challenging thing to get good at.

My point is basically that the characters who can land their KO moves easier than you and earlier than you within neutral may end up being your bad matchups. The characters that tend to have trouble killing have strengths elsewhere, and you really need to get skilled at utilizing them to make up for the fact that you'll have to outplay characters like this to deal 150% when they only need to deal 100%. A very character-dependant thing, but such is the story with matchups.
 
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popsofctown

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Yeah, I know why Diddy's u-air is deadly. The reason I ask is because although Diddy does less % for sure, he'll be much higher up when he lands a u-air compared to Robin, so it's probably pretty comparable.

I really, really wish you could Levin n-air btw.
In Brawl there's a bug/feature that lets you nair with the c-stick if you set the c-stick to tilts and hit diagonally.

If things are coded in the certain wrong ways MAYBE you can get a levin damage multiplier, probably with no animation, if you smack the stick hard. Dream hard!
 

ChronoPenguin

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I dont feel a problem killing with Pit.
His exceptional recovery distance is to gimp off-stage so thats what ya do. If you're successful you'll kill at the same %'s in practice as everyone else. Granted he has extra work for it but he's also better suited to do that work then most. Also a Fresh upperdash arm works perfectly.

Now if Pit didn't kill on stage and didn't have a great off-stage presence + disjoints that would be something.
 
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PK Gaming

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Pit doesn't have a problem killing on the ground because Fsmash is bananas. Range, power, speed, active frames... this move kind of has it all.

KOing in the air is another story. You're limited to gimps (which aren't that hard, admittedly) because back air and fair's launching power were gutted.
 

ChronoPenguin

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You could, y'know, explain why Bowser wouldn't be top ten and a potential top fifteen.
Why would he be top 10? Dash grab?
Mans slow, and a big target, lends himself to a ton of combos. He's hard to knock out, but his recovery isnt hard to gimp either.
Lot of people find they get in on bowser do a bunch of damage he can't really stop because of his large hitboxes, and he gets caught out.
 

Ffamran

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Why would he be top 10? Dash grab?
Mans slow, and a big target, lends himself to a ton of combos. He's hard to knock out, but his recovery isnt hard to gimp either.
Lot of people find they get in on bowser do a bunch of damage he can't really stop because of his large hitboxes, and he gets caught out.
Well, I was asking the other guy to explain his reasoning, but whatever.

It's best to have detail instead of just giving vague answers like "no" to Character X being Y tier. If someone asked if Zelda was high tier and someone else just said "no" without any further explanation, it leaves a question of why. Why would this character not be high tier? Why wouldn't they be low tier? It's like going to a restaurant and the waiter asking if you'd like to order and you just say "yes" and nothing else.
 

Conda

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Well, I was asking the other guy to explain his reasoning, but whatever.

It's best to have detail instead of just giving vague answers like "no" to Character X being Y tier. If someone asked if Zelda was high tier and someone else just said "no" without any further explanation, it leaves a question of why. Why would this character not be high tier? Why wouldn't they be low tier? It's like going to a restaurant and the waiter asking if you'd like to order and you just say "yes" and nothing else.
Now now, at least he answered. We've had posters post great posts about G&W and Duck Hunt, only to not even be replied to. :p

Bowser is a very polarized character design-wise. He's faster now sure, but he's still huge, slow from certain angles, and centered around constantly sending you far away with high knockback. After each attack, he gives you breathing room, so some characters aren't really bothered by how powerful he is with his knockback. Characters who use projectiles, for example, generally have an alright un-stressful time against him, as do combo-heavy characters due to Bowser's generous size (even if you DI out of some combos, you'll still be big enough and easy enough to hit to have the chain continue).

He's much better though, and if Bowser had a chance to be competitively viable with a dedicated player maining him and focusing 100% on him, it's this game. Gimpy could only go so far with Melee Bowser, for example.
 
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popsofctown

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I
Also neutral air cross over on shield on dedede? If you read it, before you shield just turn around first (and depending on whatever you can buffer a turn around out of shield and possibly punish him anyway).
If I turn around because I know he's about to jump onto me and nair, he has the entire duration of the nair to realize i've turned around and drift to the other side of me and land there.
I'm 95% sure Dedede doesn't have enough frame advantage to drop shield, turn around, then use his slow jab to punish Pit. At best it's frame parity with Pit having obtained the close spacing he prefers against D3.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I'm 95% sure Dedede doesn't have enough frame advantage to drop shield, turn around, then use his slow jab to punish Pit. At best it's frame parity with Pit having obtained the close spacing he prefers against D3.
Why jab when I can f-tilt, brah? Or, if I'm really feeling ballsy, just straight up grab you OoS?

Smooth Criminal
 
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Shaya

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If I turn around because I know he's about to jump onto me and nair, he has the entire duration of the nair to realize i've turned around and drift to the other side of me and land there.
I'm 95% sure Dedede doesn't have enough frame advantage to drop shield, turn around, then use his slow jab to punish Pit. At best it's frame parity with Pit having obtained the close spacing he prefers against D3.
Turn around into shield, it's broken. Then he has to grab. You can deal with reading someone's grab right?
 

SonicZeroX

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Shulk feels lot like the new Marth. Nair has huge range and no landing lag just like Marth's old fair.

His fair slashes in the same arc as Marth's and has the same offstage edgeguarding power especially when you add in Jump Monado which lets you go way off screen for kills.

Also like old Marth, he loses to people who rush him down and get in his face, but with good spacing he can keep them at bay with his huge range, which is probably the best in the game?
 

popsofctown

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If someone lands behind you, you have to wait for your shield drop frames to do anything. That's why landing behind people is really good if they don't have and Up B, Upsmash, or fast aerial that hits behind them. D3 has none of these things. I don't know why it's hard to understand. D3 might win the matchup by shorthopping backairs or whatever but he does have a very real blind spot behind his shield.

Yeah, you can turn around and play rock-paper-scissors with Pit, I've conceded that, but you are doing it his preferred spacing, which is why it was a good move on his part to do the nair. It's not broken it's just good.
 
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Shaya

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I'm telling you how people deal with that blind spot that so so many characters have. Shield drop to [turn around] shield is 8/9 frames.
I really doubt pit's neutral air on shield is -7 or better, especially as he doesn't have any options that are probably faster than 3/4 frames.

If you're facing the right direction with shield up at a neutral frame advantage (which you are capable of doing), then chances are, you're actually in the positional advantage.

It's literally an option select scenario on just about all shield pressure situations in this game (as well as Brawl; Melee had legit frame advantages and longer shield drops). Drop shield and hold shield again straight away after having your shield hit, add some tech skill maybe +1 frame extra which you can buffer to it and you're facing the right direction to grab them, what have they gained by crossing you over?

It's a mid level or so barrier to Smash. And one of those things impossible to pull off on wifi 100% of the time and is why I hate it so much; roll roll roll your boat :<
 
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popsofctown

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I understand that D3 has some effective neutral options with someone who lands so close, I just feel like D3 is weaker if he is frequently playing rock-paper-scissors with enemies that are at such a close range. Maybe that's just me being bad at D3, maybe point blank is fine for him, and maybe i'm too use to Brawl D3.

It was a final straw for me with d3
 

Shaya

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D3's lack of speedy options definitely sucks there, but I'm pretty sure with confidence in inputs and confidence in knowing they're going to cross you over, you'll probably be getting grab punishes a lot and it'll really change how they play if you're consistent with it.

Like instead of Pit just nairing through you and buffering a jab, he now has to think "maybe I have to backroll", "maybe i should wait for a spot dodge, maybe I should spot dodge the grab!" etc etc

Facing the right direction unclutters a lot of shield pressure situations to a general more neutral state between most characters and it really is just an 8 frame OoS option, just like any other options you have OoS; it's very fast and very effective, if you power shield something due to people trying to immediately attack you'll probably get forward tilt or jab, or down tilt, or something.

The power of this option has been toned down a bit this game though, due to being forced to hold shield for 11 frames rather than 7 (this is negated if your shield is ever hit by anything fyi), so if they read the reshield they have a fair amount of time to do whatever as you can otherwise only roll/spot dodge/jump.

Shield was a god tier option in Brawl for a reason.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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D3's lack of speedy options definitely sucks there, but I'm pretty sure with confidence in inputs and confidence in knowing they're going to cross you over, you'll probably be getting grab punishes a lot and it'll really change how they play if you're consistent with it.

Like instead of Pit just nairing through you and buffering a jab, he now has to think "maybe I have to backroll", "maybe i should wait for a spot dodge, maybe I should spot dodge the grab!" etc etc

Facing the right direction unclutters a lot of shield pressure situations to a general more neutral state between most characters.
:v Look man, do you play D3 or Marth? Answer us honestly now.

Pops, I can't deny your observation about D3's up close and personal game. It's only...okay. In theory, there are tons of characters that can outstrip him in that department. However, he shines at denying people the chance to get in his grill because his attacks are just so freaking meaty, particularly f-tilt and jab1/jab2.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Ffamran

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Haha... D3. Sounds like a rapper, pop star, or band name. Well, he already has a pimp coat so... Ahem... continue on with your discussion on King Dedede.
 

Emblem Lord

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Shulk feels lot like the new Marth. Nair has huge range and no landing lag just like Marth's old fair.

His fair slashes in the same arc as Marth's and has the same offstage edgeguarding power especially when you add in Jump Monado which lets you go way off screen for kills.

Also like old Marth, he loses to people who rush him down and get in his face, but with good spacing he can keep them at bay with his huge range, which is probably the best in the game?
Marth lost to people that could penetrate his zone easily but also had risk v reward in their favor, the latter being the biggest factor in his losing matches since he was even introduced as a character in the series.

I will say though for every single footsie/mid ranged spacing character it feels like Namco/Nintendo took Marth and slightly altered him for each character that he shares that niche with.

Pit
Dark Pit
ZSS
Lucina (duh)
Lucario
Donkey Kong (He was in before Marth but now they play an extremely similar game)
Shulk
Ike

I see shades of the Hero-King in all of these characters.

Maybe he was the standard for which they tried to balance all mid range types around.
 

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:v Look man, do you play D3 or Marth? Answer us honestly now.

Pops, I can't deny your observation about D3's up close and personal game. It's only...okay. In theory, there are tons of characters that can outstrip him in that department. However, he shines at denying people the chance to get in his grill because his attacks are just so freaking meaty, particularly f-tilt and jab1/jab2.

Smooth Criminal
D3 was a very hard match up in Brawl and I obviously have to learn the options of all characters I have issues with. Turn around reshield or just shield drop reshield was BALLS to deal with on a fat **** like Dedede with man handling mittens the size of swords.
I also played D3 in Brawl a lot earlier on (my first singles tournament victory had me just D3ing the GFs because uber tired and it was against Pokemon trainer :p) and even during mid years; often as a counterpick to like ROB on frigate or halberd. He was also my main in Project M, which was just a super Brawl version of D3.

Power shielding techniques/mid to high level shield usage is universal, you can apply that stuff to all characters bar yoshi. And seeing as D3 doesn't have that many fast OoS options, you use the one that's fastest/best, right?
 
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Conda

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Some characters depend on customs more than others. Basically the ones with kind-of-crappy default specials that are lucky enough to have better alternatives as customs.

Supporting my previous worries in this thread regarding general perception of customs, after DaPuffster's showing at Smash4Ever:

http://clashtournaments.com/no-customs-at-ktar-xi-but-dont-freak-out/

I'll post the relevant pieces:

it was confirmed via a post by tournament host, Rich “Keitaro” King, that custom moves would not be allowed at his upcoming regional tournament KTAR XI.

“Due to a multitude of factors mainly including Wii U’s limited functionality with custom moves, the common rulesets from other regions, and also the ability to have equipment on while still showing a clear circle ‘not many know about this exploit’, we have decided to not allow custom moves for this event or future events at this time.”
The post goes onto clearly state that Palutena, as well as all 3 Mii Fighters will be allowed, but will be restricted to their “1” option for each special move, forming a standard, default set.

But why the sudden change? A month ago, it had seemed that things were all clear for custom moves being usable in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U at KTAR. Some saw this as too hasty a decision, assuming this was an over-reaction to DaPuffster’s performance, and others a deliberate attempt to shut certain characters out from competing at all. This, however, is not the case.
“While I think some customs are a tad wacky,” Keitaro started, when asked to elaborate about his feelings on the custom move ban, “I personally wish they can be legal for tournaments. I might try them out at the next KTAR, but it’s also dependent on how customs can work on the Wii U. “

Earlier in this thread I stated that Mii Brawler's janky and buggy One Inch Punch would cause people to be worried about custom legalization, and understandably (and probably correctly) reinforce the worries of those who were already on the fence.

I advised that we consider taking a common sense "temporarily ban bugged customs if they are metagame-impacting due to said bugginess, until the bug is patched" approach to the situation. This would prevent customs from being banned as a result of buggy/broken moves like this, and restrict the ban to those which are clearly not working as intended until they are patched.

This is only my position because I support legal custom moves at tournaments, and if buggy customs will cause them all to be banned, then I'd rather have the buggy ones temp-banned instead of all of them. A much more common sense solution, rather than banning them all.


Customs are going to be banned at many tournaments in the first couple months, including KTAR XI, for other reasons mainly. They are not unlocked from the start and, as far as we know, very difficult to unlock fully for the whole cast. It'll take some time until it's reasonable to expect all tournament setups to have all customs unlocked.

But don't worry! The community generally agrees that customs are on track to be legal at most tournaments in a few months everywhere, once they are unlocked.

When that time comes, though, is when we'll really be deciding if we really should allow customs. And it is very clear that a bunch of people are on the fence on the matter. Smash4Ever certainly didn't help public perception of customs. Many people believe there are potential balance issues within them, and many more people are on the fence after seeing what happened.

After that tournament, it's much harder to argue that customs are balanced across the board and that there aren't any broken ones. I am a VERY strong supporter for customs, but I have to be unbiased (not unbias) and admit that there are prominent bugs apparent in at least one so far.

Patches will hopefully help, and quickly if I'm being super hopeful. But we still do not know if customs will be patched - we have no idea if the development team treats custom moves as equal canon parts of each character's moveset.
 
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by buggy customs are they referring to the yoshi jump glitch one, or the fact that Mii Brawler can just about KO at 0% if the first his of his custom up-B hits? Cuz I don't honestly see Mii Brawlers Up-b That polarizing enough to warrant EVERY custom move being banned(even if this is temporary). There are plenty of moves that people are probably unaware of that can KO at 0 that aren't custom moves. Things like MK, Ness and Fox's Fair. As well as many other hard hitting multi-hit moves. The way multi-hit moves in this game work are completely different compared to all past iterations of smash as based on what I've done/seen they all seem to having a variable trajectory and Base knock back depending on the direction your traveling while using the multi-hit and the speed at which your moving. Many multi-hits also this time around are given set knock back values to ensure they can connect consistently. The fact that Mii Brawler can land those OHKO up-bs is also dependent of how you vector.
 

Conda

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by buggy customs are they referring to the yoshi jump glitch one, or the fact that Mii Brawler can just about KO at 0% if the first his of his custom up-B hits? Cuz I don't honestly see Mii Brawlers Up-b That polarizing enough to warrant EVERY custom move being banned(even if this is temporary). There are plenty of moves that people are probably unaware of that can KO at 0 that aren't custom moves. Things like MK, Ness and Fox's Fair. As well as many other hard hitting multi-hit moves. The way multi-hit moves in this game work are completely different compared to all past iterations of smash as based on what I've done/seen they all seem to having a variable trajectory and Base knock back depending on the direction your traveling while using the multi-hit and the speed at which your moving. Many multi-hits also this time around are given set knock back values to ensure they can connect consistently. The fact that Mii Brawler can land those OHKO up-bs is also dependent of how you vector.
The tricky part (aside from trying to read your post with that font color :p ) is that banning one move is apparently much more difficult and problematic morals-wise than banning the entire feature itself.

If balance issues become an apparent issue, we will resort to banning customs across the board much quicker than we will ever resort to banning one specific custom move, even if that one broken custom move is the reason for the wide ban. I obviously disagree with that line of thinking - if we can remove items for logical reasons, we can remove one obviously buggy move temporarily until it is patched, especially if that means customs will be legal for everyone else as a result.

And 'is it escapable or that problematic?' is not the point at all. The point is that a custom move has a clear bug that can win stocks against top-level players, due to how it functions. Yes, you can play around it, but that already provides the character utilizing the buggy move a huge advantage and threat level. It's meta-shifting.

It's not Wario getting goofy movement in the air or Yoshi teleporting around, it's a KO-granting bug, and at the least it's a huge threat level increase (biggest in the game so far, I'd say). If it happens even once, it's an issue because it is not an intended function of the move. This is also very different from some multi-hits spiking if you end them before the last hit. But again, other players should not be required to deal with a KO-granting buggy custom move, as that would be a crappy meta. There are more important and long-lasting developments that could be happening instead in this early baby period of our meta, it does NOT need to revolve in part around a buggy custom move that we know is buggy.

The fact that it will also likely (hopefully) be patched - and at the very least we all can see it clearly needs to be patched out - means that we will be knowingly developing a meta for a time period that is sure to crumble once said patch hits.

This would be incredibly shortsighted and irresponsible for a competitive community to do, especially during the precious early stages of our meta. Which is why I advise we temporarily remove this buggy move from our early meta while it is broken.

Edit:

We have spectators and viewers to excite and inspire to get on board with our awesome competitive scene. The next few months are incredibly important. Lets not make things that we know are bugs that will likely get fixed in due time be part of our defining first few months, just because we're too lazy or stubborn to ban such obviously okay-to-ban things. It's also super easy to enforce this specific ban.

Something like this would be removed in 1 week if it was LoL or Starcraft. Nintendo is obviously going to be slower, so we have to be OKAY with beating them to the punch and banning obviously broken things if we need to.
It would be different if we were not getting any balance/bugfix patches - then I'd say DEAL WITH IT and we'd get used to the game being broken for 7 years. But the fact that bugs will be patched out in Smash 4 means we cannot afford to revolve a portion our meta around a KO-granting bug so early on.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Curious to see read peoples thoughts on marth.

If you had to buff him, how would you do it and why? Would you nerf him? How and why?
Most of the changes I would suggest to Marth are nerfs.

*I would reduce the hitbox on Marth's F-air to encourage crouching under it.
*Pummel DPS reduced to discourage grab release mixups
*throw damage increased universally, slightly lower angle on F-throw and B-throw. Net change is a slight buff to Marth's grab game at low percents and ability to set up edgeguards.
*Removal of hitlag modifiers on Marth's tipper/sourspot mechanics, instead differentiate the hits with just sound effects
*Increased damage on tipper tilts, but slightly less overall knockback growth.
*Tipper DA is a horizontal KO move. Non tipper DA has less damage but hits people more vertically, putting people in front of Marth in the air for combos at mid percents. Slightly reduced ending lag. This move is still risky, but when spaced well should be worth it. Non tipper DA while weaker should instead lead to trap situations on hit instead at certain percent ranges.
*reduced damage on non-tipper Smashes but keep knockback close to the same. A tipper tilt should be more rewarding than a non-tipper Smash, but your Smashes are KO moves.

Overall this narrows the purposes and uses of Marth's moves, and tries to give a purpose to all of Marth's moves with more specific strengths.

When Marth is changed like this, this is how we can alternatively make Lucina different (her frame data and hitboxes will still be identical to Marth's).

*F-throw and D-throw have lower base knockback than Marth's, allowing better early combo setups.
*Honestly, I don't know what would be most satisfying for Lucina's DA. There's a lot of things that could be considered. At the very least it should probably be a high damage punish on the entire blade, and the angle at which it sends people at is something that should be thought about.
*Change Lucina's D-air spike into an angled spike away from her not unlike Captain Falcon's chest spike in Melee, which prevents cases of things like stage teching and also makes the move more dangerous from on stage.
*1 more damage on U-tilt, F-smash, and both hits of D-smash. Knockback unchanged.

With this design, Lucina is unique by having clearly better combo throws and Smashes, while Marth still is rewarded for tipper hits hugely while other changes further push his focus to edgeguarding.
 
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:4greninja::4sheik::4diddy: :4sonic::4fox::4zss:

All of the above characters have the mobility and tools to get past Robin's attempts to keep them off him. They have a much easier time doing this too, due to their superior mobility to run circles around him before getting in on him.

I'm not saying that Robin is a bad a character: I think he's one of the best in this game. I can see him being top 10, quite possibly top 5 after reading the above arguments. I still think though, that top 3 is a bit far fetched. I can't imagine why he would be a top 3 char when he has problem matchups against the above.
Two major points here.

First, Robin's projectile game negates the speed advantage that these characters might have enjoyed against other swordsman-type characters like Marth and Ike. If all that they're doing is "running circles around" Robin, then Robin can just use side-b or charge up a neutral-b at no risk to herself. Her opponents have to actually apply pressure using hitboxes to threaten Robin since she has projectiles: they can't just run around (they can projectile-camp, but I'll get to that later). To approach, Greninja has to dash, Diddy has to grab, Sonic has to spindash, etc. And once they go for these options, they have to deal with Robin's own jab and disjointed tilts. Again, Robin's attack speed isn't slow, it's just her ground movement speed that is.

She doesn't have to approach most other characters if she doesn't want to. It's a catch-22 for them: stay away from Robin but let her charge Thoron and spam Elfires on your shield, or get in and face her disjointed attacks (which do a lot of damage for someone who kills so early, by the way--the risk-reward really isn't in their favor at all). It's kind of like facing DK or Bowser but if DK and Bowser were slow and had projectiles instead of speed, and were also not big targets. Can you imagine a half-sized but slightly slower Donkey Kong whirling barrels and coconuts toward you? It's like Brawl- DK! Just the thought is terrifying.

Second, minus Sonic, the characters on this list share one important trait: they don't improve much with customs. Their game with customs is about the same as it is without, but that's not true for Robin. Nope, I'm not talking about Thoron+. I'm talking about Fire Wall and Speed Thunder. While Thoron+ is indeed a great option in basically all matchups, Fire Wall and Speed Thunder improve these particular matchups by much more. Speed Thunder is good as an anticamp option, and Fire Wall is both a landing option and a quick anti-CQC move that conveniently also negates projectiles.

Now, with all this in mind, to dig into the matchups a bit:

:4sheik: I'd say that this is in Robin's favor. Sheik's needles don't do that much damage, so just take Speed Thunder in case she spams needles very quickly, and you're set against the camping. When it comes to approaching, Robin's huge disjointed Levin f-air beats Sheik's aerial options all the time, even if they are non-commit (Robin is like, "I'll MAKE you commit" and tips the scales over). Heck, even Robin's n-air beats Sheik's options due to the disjoint. On the ground, your dash attack beats Sheik's, and your jab and tilts beat hers cleanly too. Sheik's d-throw/f-air/bouncing fish/f-tilt combos seem scary until you realize that they're doing laughable damage, kind of like her needles, and that she needs to get you up to a fairly decent percent before killing you (130 to 160). Meanwhile, Elwind jab can do up to 14-16% (lol), and Robin is killing closer to the 100 ballpark. Sheik is not scary at all, imo.

:4greninja: I'd call this a 50-50 matchup. Greninja is significantly heavier than Sheik (almost as heavy as Robin!), and fast shurikens are quite annoying, even more so than needles despite inferior range. Thankfully, Electric type > Water type: Speed Thunder is great here (regular Thunder/Thunder+ loses to Shurikens). Greninja's low profile means that you won't be short hop aerialing against him, but why are you short hopping as Robin anyway? Shame on you, you heinous monster. Yeah, Robin's short hop is bad. Full hop aerials still beat out Greninja's aerial approaches though, and on the ground your tilts and jabs have more disjoints than his tilts and jabs. Generally Robin is doing more damage than Greninja (3-4%) and also kills just a bit earlier with up-air or d-smash (both variants of jab kill too). They can both gimp each other (n-air or Elwind from Robin; Hydro Pump from Greninja...it's interesting that their best gimps on each other are their recovery moves, heh; also, Gliding Elwind is probably a bit better here, for what it's worth). In Greninja's court is that sick up-smash: it kills early, is disjointed as all get out, and DACUS with it is going to be absolutely monstrous (though Robin's DACUS will be a good tool as well aganist Greninja). Greninja's roll is very good from what I can tell, so crossing up is a bit of a problem in this matchup; just use d-smash smartly, pivot f-tilt, and Fire Wall! (Fire Walling behind you isn't always legitimate, but it looks cool).

Huh. You know, I actually think that Greninja as a character is better than Sheik. Go figure. But that's an argument for another time.

:4diddy: Now, I play a lot of Diddy, and I know that people think that Diddy wins this hands down, but I actually think this is one of his more even match-ups. Diddy loves to shield, and to shield grab, and Robin's shield pressure loves characters who try to shield a lot. Diddy's bananas get eaten up by projectiles, as does his Monkey Flip (at least for grounded Monkey Flip...for aerial Monkey Flip, use an aerial if you can read it coming, otherwise use retreating pivot f-tilt just in case he uses it: you give up a bit of stage control but it's almost always worth not taking 14% damage). You can't go wrong with retreating Levin f-air.

Fire Wall vs. Elfire is a close call here: Elfire + Nosferatu will give Diddy's shield a lot of trouble, but Fire Wall will eat through his Monkey Flip and banana game like no tomorrow. Speed Thunder vs. Thunder+ is also a close call. I would take Speed Thunder to further pressure Diddy's shield, but unlike the two characters above Diddy has tons and tons of kill options that you have to watch out for; your additional KO power won't really matter that much here, nor will your damage racking, so Thunder+ to seal the deal in terms of KO'ing him first is not such a bad idea. You can Thoron+ his side-b recovery (it's very easy to see coming, and if he recovers high you can up-air him), and if he tries to up-b you can catch him with a spike. He has a harder time gimping your recovery, though if you pick a stage with a wall that he can jump up, he can use that massive f-air to make you a very sad tactician indeed.

The most important thing to remember about this match-up is to not get grabbed. Do not get grabbed under any circumstances. Retreating options are your best bet, and I would shy away from Battlefield overall because it's so easy to get grabbed on that stage, and so hard to retreat. Any Omega stage or FD will serve you well; Yoshi's Island isn't bad either, though it does have that unfortunate wall. To get out of d-throw > up-air if you do get grabbed, though, just VI into Diddy, and then use b-reverse Thoron charges or Elfire/Fire Wall to land safely.

:4zss: This is kind of like a mirror battle. You both have bad grabs, though Robin's is worse; you both focus on shield pressure, though Robin's is better. I think this is in Robin's favor. ZSS isn't very good up close against you, and doesn't have great damage options unless she gets you in the air: Elfire+Thoron > paralyzer, especially since you're doing more damage than she is off of confirms. Once she gets you in the air, her up-air is pretty good, but the main thing here is that you kill earlier than she does. You can't really gimp her, unfortunately, and her mobility makes it difficult to land an up-air on her, so I could see this being an even match-up (her n-air is disjointed and SH n-air is strong against Robin...though I've never tried out Fire Wall against it; does that beat it? if so, that'd be pretty important). ZSS' mobility doesn't really matter that much offensively, though. If she rushes in, you can jump or spotdodge because spotdodging the grab is very rewarding (though the grab eats through spotdodges in this game; you have to time it, or else you can roll behind her, since doesn't have a d-smash that catches rolls behind), and her other major option is dash anyway, which also loses to spotdodge/jump/roll behind.

:4fox: Fox seems really hard because of lasers and reflector, and to an extent he is, but I want to point out that Fox isn't a tough matchup because he rushes Robin down; he's a tough matchup because he forces Robin to approach thanks to laser+reflector, and then he's very good at running away once she does approach. He'll build up damage on you really fast (avoid FD like the plague, or else this will happen even faster), and try to run away and shoot lasers as often as you can because you have problems getting in on him with your low ground mobility. However, Fox does lack in a reliable way to kill you or even to set you up for a kill via his throws: be wary of his up-smash, and although you'll be at like 150% or something, Fox will die to your attacks at 90% because he's super light (even lighter than Sheik!). As in every game, he's a fast-faller, so d-throw to up-air will be a very nice way to kill him (he can't really shine-stall as much as he could in previous iterations, either). Your attacks out-disjoint his in the air and the ground and you win up close, assuming that you do get in. 50:50, though, is what I'm going to call it, because while lasers and reflectors are really strong, the damage-racking is about on par with your early KO options.

:4sonic: Sonic does improve with customs, because Hammer Spin Dash is absurd, and unfortunately for Robin, this match-up is pretty bad as a result. Shield is a strong tool vs. Sonic in general, but Robin as a character isn't so strong when she's hiding in her shield. Both Thoron+ and Speed Thunder are good here, but Hammer Spin Dash will jump right over both of them. Sonic's pivot f-tilt and f-smash are so, so, so good. Meh, Sonic might just be the best character in the game after all, rather than Palutena or Robin. The more I think about his tools the less counteroptions I can think of. He's absurdly good.

You left out :4pikachu:, another really fast character, but I think that this match is in Robin's favor for many of the same reasons that it was in Marth's favor in Brawl. Robin can wall Pikachu out with retreating pivot options (f-smash, f-tilt, grab sometimes) or f-air. The only reason that I might call this even is because Pikachu can edgeguard Robin pretty well. It's pretty disgusting how well Pikachu edgeguards. Still, I don't think that Robin loses this at the very least: if Pikachu messes up his b-air edgeguard he gets spiked. Robin also kills Pikachu very early (Pikachu is as light as Fox).

You also left out :4falcon:, whom I think is a big threat because he's got the best u-air in the game, even better than Robin's own because of how little it lags (6 frames of landing lag I think? absurd). It's so fast, and Robin doesn't have tons and tons of landing options. Also, he can grab you so fast out of a dash that projectile-camping him isn't always the best idea. Falcon is also kind of heavy, unlike most of the other characters on this list. Still, he falls pretty fast, so landing f-airs and u-airs on him is easier, he has a bunch of dead attacks like Falcon Punch, and he doesn't have an easy time edgeguarding her (whereas she can spike him; take Gliding Elwind imo, it spikes at a better angle for me, but your mileage may vary). I would take Fire Wall here because it covers all his options out of a dash up to you: shield, spotdodge, grab, and jab. I would also take Speed Thunder because he won't give you the breathing room to charge Thoron+. 50:50 at worst, though.

The reason that I think that Robin is among the best is because, in addition to not really struggling against these speedy characters, she has arguably very positive matchups against the likes of Rosalina, Jigglypuff, and Peach, who are top-tier threats. The matchups I'd be really concerned about as Robin are custom Ike and custom DK: when Robin is outranged AND outmaneuvered AND outpowered, we have a problem. DK's custom up-b and Ike's custom side-b, which goes through projectiles, are both very problematic for Robin to overcome because, unlike the generic ground mobility that you guys are talking about with regard to these other characters, Ike and DK (and Palutena, actually, and Sonic to an extent as discussed above) have quick dashing attacks that move them across the stage as they attack: Robin can't punish these very easily because she can't run fast enough to catch them at the end of the animation. Not being able to punish attacks that go through you is indeed a weakness of low ground mobility, but I don't think that "rushdown" is really a problem for Robin at all.

But I still think that because of DK's size and Ike's own slowness (punishing Robin's projectiles is difficult), those two matchups are probably close to even. Palutena and Sonic are probably her worst match-ups; everything else in my mind is either even or slightly tilted in one direction, or heavily in Robin's favor. Seems top 5 to me, but time will tell, as with everything else.
 
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Shaya

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Most of the changes I would suggest to Marth are nerfs.

*I would reduce the hitbox on Marth's F-air to encourage crouching under it.
This would kill Marth for no reason, you're already encouraged to spot dodge it or roll through it, and characters can already crouch it into shield, which is a very reliable power shield option select. It's laggy to land with and there is otherwise no way for an opponent to not have an inherent frame advantage over Marth when just mildly reading it with a spot dodge.
There's enough counter play to Marth's forward air. Taking away his ability to have similar attacks to grounded pokes/tools in the air is Marth's niche. The way Sakurai's made his landings laggy and lack of auto cancels accentuates that his aerials are just basically ground tilts but done in the air.

*Pummel DPS reduced to discourage grab release mixups
Why is grab release mix ups bad? The ability to grab release is there for everybody, and Marth's throws aren't that great in damage or position (they aren't combo throws), mashing pummels until they release forces bad DI/buffered actions which then make fast uses of certain throws get better follow ups. You're taking away a purely mental aspect of this game that doesn't advantage one character over the other for no reason. Ground and air release animations are actually a better positional advantage sometimes.

*Removal of hitlag modifiers on Marth's tipper/sourspot mechanics, instead differentiate the hits with just sound effects
You don't like this mechanic personally but give no reason for disliking it other than how it differentiates him and Lucina. Why not get rid of Falcon's Knee hit lag? It would actually be a huge buff to him. If anything, remove the hit lag modifier on untippered hits so he isn't artificially safer; still, a design intention given to him by Sakurai for three games straight. He would likely need his damage toned down if his tippers had hit lag increases removed because of how much safer they would be on shield, he is already awarded enough for spacing well.

Overall this narrows the purposes and uses of Marth's moves, and tries to give a purpose to all of Marth's moves with more specific strengths.
With this design, Lucina is unique by having clearly better combo throws and Smashes, while Marth still is rewarded for tipper hits hugely while other changes further push his focus to edgeguarding.
I'm pretty sure I have a purpose for every single one of Marth's moves in this game except... dash attack, and I can go in depth about the specific strengths of them all. Melee Dash attack would be nice-ish. But he doesn't need it and it otherwise has a small niche for it's high damage, and very low angling of it rising upwards (pseudo-anti air). He already is a god at edge guarding and doesn't need to be made any stronger at it.

I know you have this overarching emphasis on making Marth/Lucina different, but such significant design changes are unlikely to happen. Lucina is by all observations a purposely dumbed down version of Marth; "boo hoo I hate clones", but likely the main reason she exists in this game is because of her ease of implementation.
 
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Z'zgashi

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Am I the only one who thinks Robin is nothing special and is probably just a mid tier, maybe high tier?
 

Mr. Johan

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You're Smash 4 Yoshi. Nothing is special compared to him.

I'm still waiting for the patch that strips him of his ability to jump OoS. He already can't be shieldpoked, did he really need a feature that makes his shield objectively superior to all other shields in the game as a result? :p
 
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ChronoPenguin

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Shulk feels lot like the new Marth. Nair has huge range and no landing lag just like Marth's old fair.

His fair slashes in the same arc as Marth's and has the same offstage edgeguarding power especially when you add in Jump Monado which lets you go way off screen for kills.

Also like old Marth, he loses to people who rush him down and get in his face, but with good spacing he can keep them at bay with his huge range, which is probably the best in the game?
While Nair auto cancels getting the full hotbox takes some time and if you just ShFf it then like Shulks top half goes uncovered.
I always got more of the Ike vibe.

Am I the only one who thinks Robin is nothing special and is probably just a mid tier, maybe high tier?
I'm not a huge fan of Robin or Ness though Robin is a matchup I have difficulty with. I doubt Robin forces longer Zoners to approach him. Dhd, villager, samus, gunner probably comfortably out range him to force him to approach is what I expect and I know from experience you can rush him. Granted no one is great at *everything*. I don't know about mid or high idgaf about tiers right now. He is a solid char.
 
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A2ZOMG

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This would kill Marth for no reason, you're already encouraged to spot dodge it or roll through it, and short characters can already crouch it into shield, which is a very reliable power shield option select. It's laggy to land with and there is otherwise no way for an opponent to not have an inherent frame advantage over Marth when just mildly reading it with a spot dodge.
There's enough counter play to Marth's forward air. Taking away his ability to have similar abilities to grounded pokes/tools in the air is Marth's niche. The way Sakurai's made his landings laggy and lack of auto cancels accentuates that his aerials are just basically ground tilts but done in the air.


Why is grab release mix ups bad? The ability to grab release is there for everybody, and Marth's throws aren't that great in damage or position (they aren't combo throws), mashing pummels until they release forces bad DI/buffered actions which then make fast uses of certain throws get better follow ups. You're taking away a purely mental aspect of this game that doesn't advantage one character over the other for no reason. Ground and air release animations are actually a better positional advantage sometimes.


You don't like this mechanic personally but give no reason for disliking it other than how it differentiates him and Lucina. Why not get rid of Falcon's Knee hit lag? It would actually be a huge buff to him. If anything, remove the hit lag modifier on untippered hits so he isn't artificially safer; still, a design intention given to him by Sakurai for three games straight. He would likely need his damage toned down if his tippers had hit lag increases removed because of how much safer they would be on shield, he is already awarded enough for spacing well.



I'm pretty sure I have a purpose for every single one of Marth's moves in this game except... dash attack, and I can go in depth about the specific strengths of them all. Melee Dash attack would be nice-ish. But he doesn't need it and it otherwise has a small niche for it's high damage, and very low angling of it rising upwards (pseudo-anti air). He already is a god at edge guarding and doesn't need to be made any stronger at it.

I know you have this overarching emphasis on making Marth/Lucina different, but such significant design changes are unlikely to happen. Lucina is by all observations a purposely dumbed down version of Marth; "boo hoo I hate clones", but likely the main reason she exists in this game is because of her ease of implementation.
Here's a serious question. You believe Marth isn't top 15?

When factoring things like Marth's high mobility and insane KO power (on top of the fact he's resistant to traps), he legitimately still has room to be toned down. And I thought having air tilts was supposed to be Bowser's or Charizard's niche. Marth's niche is having a fast sword that does a lot of damage at maximum range. That type of design should have blind spots, especially when you compare what OTHER characters have available. Look at Ike for instance and how strict his F-air spacing is in this game (so he uses N-air more, which is good but also can be outranged by quite a few moves, especially by someone like Marth, which frankly doesn't make sense).

Counterplay to Marth's F-air? I believe that if your name is Sheik, Diddy, or Fox. Didn't you try to prove not long ago how SILLY fullhop F-air is still in this game? You stay in a great position if your opponent rolls or spotdodges, and they generally have limited options to pursue you if they didn't commit previously. Yes, I concede that Marth lost one area of dishonesty with super low lag SHFF F-airs, but I don't get why you choose now to downplay how effective he is currently.

Grab release mixups are generally bad when they result in character specific shenanigans. Marth or Lucina grab releasing you is toxic by virtue of unintended positional advantage. It's an unnecessary hidden strength that's dishonest and doesn't add to the game and just makes the recieving end feel unnecessarily bad. Also Marth's throws are fine for getting people offstage, and that's how Marth's strengths should be emphasized. Grab releasing in this game outside of ledge situations should fundamentally put you back in neutral. That's the way the game was designed, and even if you can argue that this is minor in the grand scheme of things, it's still an area where Marth is noticeably dishonest.

I probably should have stated this, but removing hitlag modifiers is mostly about consistency and honesty. As you said yourself, Marth shouldn't be artificially safer on the basis of a hidden mechanic like hitlag modifiers. I don't see it as a problem on tipper hits for the most part because even now, you're not seriously punishing them on block. Marth shouldn't be balanced around things that are dishonest and overloaded.

Also, I wasn't saying that Marth's moves didn't all mostly have purposes. The idea is focusing the situations in which each of his moves are optimal. This type of design makes options more interesting. And sure, you're probably right that Lucina is mostly meant to be inferior Marth. That doesn't mean that there aren't actually simple solutions to differentiating her and making her more viable that don't go drastically against original design goals.
 
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Shaya

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Re: Robin

I don't think they're broken, they just have more options than every other character, while their 'limited'/skill based choices are probably too low risk (levin sword respawns so fast it isn't even really a contention) for just massive massive rewards. I think Robin is pretty much perfectly tuned in this game between their complete lack of real weaknesses and the rewards they get, just Lebin Sword is literally the bee's knees and isn't so skillful as is probably intended, but at top level that's a nuisance not a "omg meta centralised".

Don't think they're top 5, top 10 is a safe-ish guess. If they never get changed, this character will always be good and likely won't suffer any truly poor match ups.
 
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NairWizard

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Not having poor matchups is probably the best way to be top 5 in this game. I can't think of many characters who can claim not to have poor matchups. Yoshi, maybe? Who beats Yoshi? This is a legitimate question directed at Yoshi mains. Is there a single match-up in which Yoshi does worse than even?
 
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Shaya

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Here's a serious question. You believe Marth isn't top 15?

When factoring things like Marth's high mobility and insane KO power, he legitimately still has room to be toned down. And I thought having air tilts was supposed to be Bowser's or Charizard's niche.
I don't know. I think Marth has no unassailable weaknesses and he is challenging to achieve that (I find Robin the same thus far, <3 them now). This is the type of character I play in every game (I could argue PM 2.5 Dedede was this, I loved him a lot). I want options, choices, and I want to be able to identify what I could've done better.

He's probably in my top 15 impressions for the game. But Marth is going to be good as long as his rewards are rewarding and he has safety in his kit used optimally. Look at Marth in Project M? He's the same as in Melee but horrendous, every character's rewards are better, every character's **** is safe on shield as well, and marth only gets rewards for tippering that are mildly comparable to what the mid tier characters or better get for free. I can't stand him in that game because I'm working significantly harder than my opponent to only have it all undone by getting grabbed once into everyone's free/easy cookie cutter ****.

His forward, up and back air act much like his grounded tilts (or jab). Neutral air is somewhat like down tilt. ?
Your design/understanding scope of Marth is completely different to mine, someone who doesn't play Marth nor has the claim of beating him consistently (which hint: most top players in all three smash game he's appeared in thus far usually have strong tournament records against Marth / outright claim he's terrible on a consistent basis). Marth is a character of fundamentals, spacing and reacting; when you play as Marth or against Marth, the player who wins is going to be the guy who's "better" at Marth, his match ups are not skewed with anyone or anything that isn't inherently bad already.

Marth's niche is having a fast sword that does a lot of damage at maximum range. That type of design should have blind spots, especially when you compare what OTHER characters have available. Look at Ike for instance and how strict his F-air spacing is in this game (so he uses N-air more, which is good but also can be outranged by quite a few moves, especially by someone like Marth, which frankly doesn't make sense).
All of Marth's attacks are arcs, with specific horizontal strikes in a very small few moves. He has tippers to accentuate what arcing hitboxes achieve (differences in horizontal or vertical positioning 'guaranteeing' tippers).

Counterplay to Marth's F-air? I believe that if your name is Sheik, Diddy, or Fox. Didn't you try to prove not long ago how SILLY fullhop F-air is still in this game? You stay in a great position if your opponent rolls or spotdodges, and they generally have limited options to pursue you if they didn't commit previously.
Okay, fair comes out, no matter what, the next time he can do anything is 25-30+ frames later. I proclaim Marth's full hop fair is enough of a bread and butter option to base his neutral off of it. I have to hit with fair to be effective, on shield or on themselves proper, if my opponent is good enough to avoid forward air at all, I'm likely losing the match. If Marth's forward air was 2 frames start up with a cool down of 13 frames, I'd say that **** is counterplayless. But it's ONLY SAFE ON HITTING SOMETHING. In this game I can only rising forward air or landing/fast fall forward air to be safe/effective, that's about a 35 frame window in Marth's floaty jump where he doesn't have optimal usage of this "no counter play" move. Knowing those are the two scenarios which are most optimal, what can an opponent do? A hell of a lot, and I just don't think you understand that/smash enough to get it.


Grab release mixups are bad when they result in character specific shenanigans. Marth or Lucina grab releasing you is toxic by virtue of unintended positional advantage. It's an unnecessary hidden strength that's dishonest and doesn't add to the game and just makes the recieving end feel unnecessarily bad. Also Marth's throws are fine for getting people offstage, and that's how Marth's strengths should be emphasized. Grab releasing in this game outside of ledge situations should fundamentally put you back in neutral. That's the way the game was designed, and even if you can argue that this is minor in the grand scheme of things, it's still an area where Marth is noticeably dishonest.
This doesn't exist in Smash 4. Where is the dishonesty at a +1 frame advantage? Seriously. Ughhhhh.

I probably should have stated this, but removing hitlag modifiers is mostly about consistency and honesty. As you said yourself, Marth shouldn't be artificially safer on the basis of a hidden mechanic like hitlag modifiers. I don't see it as a problem on tipper hits for the most part because even now, you're not seriously punishing them on block.

I wasn't saying that Marth's moves didn't all mostly have purposes. The idea is focusing the situations in which each of his moves are optimal. This type of design makes options more interesting. And sure, you're probably right that Lucina is mostly meant to be inferior Marth. That doesn't mean that there aren't actually simple solutions to differentiating her that don't go drastically against original design goals.
I didn't say he should or shouldn't be artificially safer. It does make him a bit of a stinker to Lucina, but considering there are ways to space with his attacks that are at really good ranges but are still untippered, I respect it (Up tilt/fair in this game mostly, Brawl this was more pronounced).

Marth's entire kit is mostly honest, there is rarely if ever anything that you see from him that's unexpected. You do not understand Marth at the same level as any tournament going Marth, and it's obvious by your complaints about him; his OPTIMAL USAGES ARE GOOD, his non-optimal usages are pretty mediocre in this game and the ability to use things optimally in Marth is in relation to how capable your opponent is at Smash.

Do you know how many hours I've spent only losing and getting 2-3 stocked playing as Marth against someone like Tyrant's anything (Captain Falcon in Brawl [and up], over and over)? He's a significantly better Marth player than I am in Brawl, likely one of the best in the world yet he doesn't pull it out in tournament. He power shields reliably, rolls appropriately, and abuses his blind spots disgustingly. Him and Mew2King are known as Marth slayers, they haven't dropped sets to them in tournament for like, HALF A DECADE+ (neither has Nairo, but he wasn't around long enough in the Brawl era to get the reputation, although he definitely is one). Do you think any of the other countless top level players I've played that cannot beat me without their main/top tier in comparison? Those top players I still lose to end up just bulldozing me, hard punishing me for habitually relying on going for 'only optimal usages' and do so primarily off of power shielding my forward air.

Seems like a pretty consistent ticket to ****ing up Marth "oh he's in the air? He's either forward airing on the rise, so spot dodge, or fairing on the landing, so shield it!" Voila.
- Practically straight from the horses mouth (Mew2King)
 
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Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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On @ Shaya Shaya 's points -- Marth has a high skill ceiling due to reward from tippers. Nerfing his unique characteristics can easily result in requiring players to play him optimally to get borderline normal results with him, which you can get by playing other characters without tipper mechanics. He's very finely balanced, and Sakurai made small changes while keeping his design intact, retaining the careful pie of yumminess that is Marth.

You cannot change/nerf Marth too much so that he performs at normal "balanced" power levels when played optimally, as playing him optimally has a higher ceiling than most other characters as they don't have a 'master spacing to get proper rewards' requirement. That's a skill requirement, and something you can try to counterplay against as an opponent versus Marth.

Part of that skill is responding to how your opponents tries to destabilize your ability to space properly. It balances itself.

This is why it's fair. It would be unfair if Marth had a different skill ceiling-raising mechanic, such as random critical hits or whatnot. But a spacing-based skill ceiling is a fair one, and Marth's moveset makes it so you have to be very accurate - you slice, and you wait, and you slice, and you wait. He doesn't have multihits except for nair, and you have to be precise. He's a fencer.


While @ Shaya Shaya can sound like he's putting you down when making his point, he's right on this one. I'm sure we all respect each other enough to understand this aspect of our conversations.
Marth is a good design for a fighting game, as he makes you not only want to get better with him, but you NEED to get better with him. If you land an fsmash punish untippered, you're not getting optimal reward - you gotta space properly. So every time YOU screw up, your opponent gets to breathe a sigh of relief.

So you don't want to screw up, but your opponent can still try to avoid your perfect spacing, or try to make you land untippered hits, or play safer, or more aggressive, etc etc. There's good counterplay in Marth's mechanics, and I see no reason to really change much about him (which sakurai really hasn't done THAT much since melee compared to some other characters). The other characters in the game which make me golf clap at the elegance of design have similar fairness built in.
 
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Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
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ZzgashiZzShy
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You're Smash 4 Yoshi. Nothing is special compared to him.
Yoshi isnt top tier... Well maybe bottom of it, Im still not sure, but yeah, he's not top 5, there are actually quite a few things special compared to him. Also, I play a **** ton of characters, so its not like Im going solo Yoshi and have a mind set centered around him. I literally have been co-maining Yoshi, Wario, Bowser, D3, MK, Samus, WFT, Zard, Shulk, and Mario in roughly that order lol.

But regardless, that wasnt the point at all, all I was saying is I think people are really overrating Robin. I feel like (for the most part) its more a case of people seeing Nairo wreck with Robin and thinking it means Robin is really good, when its Nairo being a really good player. Now, Im not saying Robin is bad, but I dont see Robin being anywhere near top 10, or even top 20 (not 100% sure on this one, but I have a feeling he's not top 20).
 
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Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Joined
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I feel like (for the most part) its more a case of people seeing Nairo wreck with Robin and thinking it means Robin is really good, when its Nairo being a really good player.
There's truth, at least, in the apparentness that if some of these top players played other characters for a couple weeks each and got really good at them, that we'd see how good the other characters can be. But that's what metagame development is and why community growth is important. :)

Gotta let the competitive community grow so we can see where other great players take this cast of characters (assuming they too don't gravitate to the popular characters and leave us with 35-40 underused and underdeveloped fighters :( ).
 
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PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
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Two major points here.
First off, hats for supporting your argument with that extensive write up.

While I agree with you on some points (Sonic is pretty miserable matchup...) I can't cosign on some of your other assessments. Sheik for instance, is difficult due to her ability to anti-zone Robin with needles and dominate him/her in the neutral game. The fact that you're essentially forced to bring Speed Thunder is a huge detriment, because it means you've already lost your best KO option. Despite her lightness, she's actually somewhat difficult to KO, because getting her offstage is difficult due to your mediocre grab. You won't KO her by fishing with Smash Attacks (she won't let you), so you're looking for an aerial KO, Arcfire/ArcThunder + Uair, or solid reads on the ground. Needless to say, KOing her is rather difficult. Another thing that's worth mentioning about Sheik is that she's incredible safe on offense; she only has to react to Robin to mitigate his/her options. Thunder charge is stopped by needles, she can effortless weave through Arcfire, and she straight up beats a lot of your up close options with a combination of shield grab.

Similarly, Pikachu is pretty bad due to it's ability to anti-zone you with Thunder Jolt, beat you in neutral and tack on like 40 extra % (if not outright KO) by spamming Thunder Jolt while you're desperately trying to recover with Elwind. I also think Diddy is a proven bad matchup, though Nairo's steadily improving the matchup and has claimed that he's done much better against Diddy as of late.
 
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