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[Fortress | Sveet]

falco's dair can't be CCed very well

 

[Zephynazo]

He was refering to the DD thing. He said u can't DD against falco's dair.

So why can't u? =)

 

[TresChikon]

Shine maybe? Iunno, please tell us.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

He's probably referring to Falco's laser game or something. Grab definitely outranges the shine.

 

[RestInPeace]

New to Marth. Tech chase tips? What should I be aiming to do when I tech chase? What moves would I generally be using?

I mainly want to know about Fox/Marth for now.

 

[TresChikon]

Grab them pretty much.

 

[Tee ay eye]

probably because Falco's dair is deceptively giant and hard to get away from

also, isn't one of the purposes of the FH aerial to make it so that it hits you out of your DD grab

or are you supposed to DD grab the opposite way or something

 

[Europhoria]

What Falcos are you playing that approach with full hop anything and why can't I get that kind of advantage? It's only Fox that approaches full hop anything and that's pretty much just as bad for them lol. DD grab against Falco is largely in effective because laser > movement. If you feel you can't move out of the way of the aerial from the full hop for whatever reason and if it's also a d-air (but this is also good against other aerials) then put up your shield and go from there lol You could probably also just let them run into an up-tilt or something but yeah... shield = good

Also, If you see them try and cross up over you and they use your double jump go straight for the up-air, because they're dead now.

Full hop aerials >_> I guess they could possibly throw off DD timings. You could just shield or pivot into grab based on how they've spaced if this comes up though.

If they're approaching you off platforms which would be a full hop height, it's a different story

 

[KirbyKaze]

He was refering to the DD thing. He said u can't DD against falco's dair.

So why can't u? =)

I was talking about the CC grab thing.

I wasn't referring to DD at all.

 

[Dynamism?]

well DD got an answer anyway.

Sheilding is probably the best weapon against Falco. It's seems to be used more than any other move when the marth comes out with the win against a good one ;D

Full hop aerials = ok with Marth?

Just like what's that guy does...kfc I think? Aggressive fly around style. Precise FHF***e

Legit (?) :/

 

[I.B]

sounds really punishable

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I was talking about the CC grab thing.

I wasn't referring to DD at all.

i'm glad i knew what you were talking about lol

shielding is bad against falco, unless you know exactly what you're doing to punish him.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well against a full hop aerial, you could try shield shifting upwards so you get an easier time on the grab.

 

[Dark Sonic]

i'm glad i knew what you were talking about lol

shielding is bad against falco, unless you know exactly what you're doing to punish him.

Correction. STAYING in your shield is bad against Falco. Shielding in general is actually pretty good for dealing with his pressure game, provided that you know how to get out once there. If he was approaching with a laser, you can typically get away with shielding the laser and then SHing backwards and fairing him (or you can take the laser airborne and then uair or fair right after). If he got your shield with a dair you should wavedash out after he shines (or rather, at the timing where Falco would normally do a shine, that way if he goes for a grab you're still okay). All he can really do about this is jab or go back to pressuring with lasers (key point, HE HASN'T DONE DAMAGE YET).

Easier said than done, but very effective.

 

[HiIH]

Correction. STAYING in your shield is bad against Falco. Shielding in general is actually pretty good for dealing with his pressure game, provided that you know how to get out once there. If he was approaching with a laser, you can typically get away with shielding the laser and then SHing backwards and fairing him (or you can take the laser airborne and then uair or fair right after). If he got your shield with a dair you should wavedash out after he shines (or rather, at the timing where Falco would normally do a shine, that way if he goes for a grab you're still okay). All he can really do about this is jab or go back to pressuring with lasers (key point, HE HASN'T DONE DAMAGE YET).

Easier said than done, but very effective.

I was pretty sure that if you wavedash after the shine because of the "shield stun" you would then get hit with the dair.

If the falco misses his JC then maybe... but then you're probably not playing a very good Falco.

 

[4% APR]

DS lives in florida, he's playing good falcos

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Correction. STAYING in your shield is bad against Falco. Shielding in general is actually pretty good for dealing with his pressure game, provided that you know how to get out once there. If he was approaching with a laser, you can typically get away with shielding the laser and then SHing backwards and fairing him (or you can take the laser airborne and then uair or fair right after). If he got your shield with a dair you should wavedash out after he shines (or rather, at the timing where Falco would normally do a shine, that way if he goes for a grab you're still okay). All he can really do about this is jab or go back to pressuring with lasers (key point, HE HASN'T DONE DAMAGE YET).

Easier said than done, but very effective.

Correction, you only WD out of shield after the shine if they do a late aerial then shine. WDing out before the shine is preferable when possible.

Also, i just WD around through the lasers; i find being in the air to be a negative thing vs falco.

 

[Nintendork 64]

Quick question about sweetspotting. Is it easier or harder to sweetspot with Marth compared with Roy? I've actually seen some people say Marth, but I ended up getting flamed at the Gamefaqs board when I reiterated what those same people said.

 

[Dynamism?]

This falls under the "stuff" part of the title
Not so much Marth

Cactuar - What would somebody mean when they say "Goes ask Cactuar how to use stage hazards to your advantage" ???

Is that something specific or general you do or a generally broad concept that would need an entire book to cover?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Quick question about sweetspotting. Is it easier or harder to sweetspot with Marth compared with Roy? I've actually seen some people say Marth, but I ended up getting flamed at the Gamefaqs board when I reiterated what those same people said.

IMO marth. Its a bigger distance and more speed and its more vertical.

but a sweet spot is just judging the up B hight/distance with how far the ledge is so often there is not right answer. This is jus my exp/skill compared to yours and unless somebody has some frame data or something there isnt a definative answer.

Roy vs marth is irrelevant. nobody would ever tell you to play roy over marth cuz he feels more comfortable.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If the falco misses his JC then maybe... but then you're probably not playing a very good Falco.

Do Lambchops and Dashizwiz count as good Falcos? If they immediately dair from the shine then they risk getting shield grabbed (hint, it doesn't have enough stun to cover his own air time). That's a risk no good Falco will be taking any time soon.

Also...like 4% said, Florida is a breeding ground for tech savy space animals. Even the average ones here are mad technical.


@Sveet....I was under the impression that most Falcos do late dairs anyway. And being in the air isn't so bad if you're comfortable with reacting to getting hit by lasers. Wavedashing around is pretty legit though (powershielding while wavedashing around is MORE legit )

 

[Mr Physych]

hey so one of my friends has been helping me out with falco matchups, right now its my least favorite matchup because i dont know what to do against the shield pressure, specificly the shine.
He tends to full hop then come down and dair out of a shine and i was wondering what a good counter against this kind of tactic is.

 

[Cactuar]

Cactuar - What would somebody mean when they say "Goes ask Cactuar how to use stage hazards to your advantage" ???

Is that something specific or general you do or a generally broad concept that would need an entire book to cover?

Yeah, I saw Vanz post that and figured it was only a matter of time before someone asked me.

I generally know the right strategies and such to be using on any given stage with any given top/high tier character, regardless of whether I actually follow those strategies.


That's the kind of thing that people would benefit more from having actual conversations with me rather than me just telling them specific things. It's much better to discuss and come to your own understanding of theory than to take something at face value.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cactuar, you're pretty.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...how the heck...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@Sveet....I was under the impression that most Falcos do late dairs anyway. And being in the air isn't so bad if you're comfortable with reacting to getting hit by lasers. Wavedashing around is pretty legit though (powershielding while wavedashing around is MORE legit )

Yes powershielding and WDing is too good

So is there no hitstun from lasers or is it just very small?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Okay this tektek things needs to stop -_-

 

[Zephynazo]

What is good counterpick stages for a Marth vs Fox? (Note: the fox loves small stage's as well, and bans FD - usually)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Battlefield makes your edgeguarding a lot easier. Dreamland and Yoshi's Story are a matter of preference.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

top: FD YS
high: BF FoD
mid: DL64 PS

 

[Zephynazo]

I see, thanks guys.

When it comes to counter picking non neutral stages, what would u guys suggest? (even tho i know neutral's is prolly best to stick to, right?)

Mute city a good choice? I always liked that stage.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Really Mute City is the only place people go. I mean I guess you could try DK64 for the... edgeguarding and... stuff, but I'm really not a fan of the angles. And the two platforms on the sides are sooo high up.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dk64 is for spacies when vs marth. platforms will help them escape any combos you start and they will use them for recovery and camping.

mute city is iffy. you can CG and combo, but vs fox if you get shined you fall off the stage and are in really bad position. stick to neutrals.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

stick to neutrals.

Basically.

 

[Zephynazo]

Thanks, i'll take that into consideration

 

[Dynamism?]

Yeah, I saw Vanz post that and figured it was only a matter of time before someone asked me.

I generally know the right strategies and such to be using on any given stage with any given top/high tier character, regardless of whether I actually follow those strategies.


That's the kind of thing that people would benefit more from having actual conversations with me rather than me just telling them specific things. It's much better to discuss and come to your own understanding of theory than to take something at face value.

I figured as much and know exactly what you're saying. I was mainly curious about some story behind someone saying that really.
You can expect to see me and have some questions asked within the next year.

Cactuar, you're pretty.

Your writing is pretty.



The only time I ever see good Marth players lose to players they shouldn't lose to is on strange stages when they're too stubborn to change characters.
Stay neutral unless you're certain of a win somehow.

 

[Rubyiris]

Jungle Japes seems awesome for Marth.

To elaborate:

High Ceiling/Close Blast Zones = perfect for marth. This will allow Marth to live 10/20% longer against characters that KO him over the top, whilst still retaining most of his killing power (utilt gets nerfed by that same 10/20%) This makes it a viable choice versus most of the high/top tier characters.

Because of the water, edgeguarding seems like it could possibly be easier. Especially against fast fallers. Additionally, since Marth is light, and floaty, The water should ideally affect Marth less than, and even possibly help with recovery mind games by going to the other edges.

Marth has enough range to deal with side camping spacies without having to commit himself fully to chasing them.

Probably some other things, but these come to mind.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

japes is bad for marth. anyone with a projectile will camp you. if you didnt notice, there is a gap between the middle and the sides that makes it really hard for marth to simply swat them.

and assume somehow you stop them from camping and get them in a combo in the middle platfrom, you think you can do that? nah, your sword can't cover the whole thing so they can just DI full one way and then tech out of your range.

and since when does marth like tall ceilings? two of marth's kill moves are upward kill moves.

 

[JBM falcon08]

I concur With Sveet.

I'm actually surprised more peaches don't use japes against marth.

 

[Ndot]

Japes is horrible for Marth lol. You get camped like a *****. Versus Falco and Fox on that stage? OMG get ***** lol.