MarthPwnzer-
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2008
- Messages
- 199
Space your fairs, if your spacing correctly your not going to be getting grabbed that much. And if you do tilt-di and all the shiek can do is tilt you, and if she does jump out.
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Master WGS
Smash Lord
Cactuar (and other Marth mainers/experts):
Do you think it'd be possible to get a really detailed and complete listing of Marth's matchups and how to play them in a single thread, and get it stickied? I think it'd be really useful, and it'd probably cut down some of the usual matchup questions.
I'd do it myself, but I'm not nearly experienced enough, so I'm asking for your help/advice... XD
Do you think it'd be possible to get a really detailed and complete listing of Marth's matchups and how to play them in a single thread, and get it stickied? I think it'd be really useful, and it'd probably cut down some of the usual matchup questions.
I'd do it myself, but I'm not nearly experienced enough, so I'm asking for your help/advice... XD
I once did a huge writeup of Marth's matchups, but it is on one of my older computers and probably lost forever. I'm not willing to spend another 20+ hours writing matchup guides. If you guys want to start compiling stuff, I'd be more than happy to tell you what's right or wrong, but I don't have the time to really start one from scratch again.
Sleepy
Smash Ace
it just seems like all shiek's know the trick if marth is in the air you can get as his feet easily with dash attacks. and if they see a shiek they'll probably grab, then after I'm pretty close to ****ed. If I'm on the ground it seems difficult unless I force a mistake.
soap
Smash Hero
just grab her
Sleepy
Smash Ace
maybe i should just avoid jumps unless he gives me the spacing to shuffle fair and pull marth's antics.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I might have the time to make 1 of these. I can probably bother you on AIM to edit it as I go along.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
i don't have strategies I just try to do grab combos and be smart
for the most part
for the most part
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Jason, can you post your guide/info on CG Fox and Falco. I'd like to compare it to what I go by.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
ok sure
These are the %s you don't have to move to do CGs with Marth vs Fox
0-16 Forward DI (sometimes 16 will miss though, but I think usually you will get them)
0-20 no DI (sometimes you will get them at 20 or 21 or so but the soonest you can miss is 20)
0-28 back DI
for up tilt vs Fox without needing to move
0-35 Forward DI (sometimes you will miss at 35 though, I've even had phantom hit bull**** before, but after 35 you need to walk forward no matter what. I think walk forward up tilt works to like 50 something?)
no DI the lowest you can up throw up tilt to knock them UP is like 23 I think that's unrelated though kinda, although honestly I usually do it at about 27/28+ (by the way vs Fox I usually do reverse up tilt because it seems better and it's harder to DI out of assuming they don't DI because you can still dash grab them even if they DI it, while if you did normal up tilt after not DIing up throw all the Fox has to do is DI behind Marth and he can land and tech before Marth can grab him)
0-50 back DI
for Falco
0-15??? (I know it's around like 13-16 or something idk, it's actually the same or less than Fox) Forward DI
0-25 no DI
0-31 back DI
for up tilt vs Falco
0-42 Forward DI
not sure for the no DI thing (unrelated thing see the Fox note above) I think it's like 30 something + but again this isn't exactly related to the "don't need to move" thing but more like a "don't need to move until it knocks them over on the ground instead of just completely missing" type of thing
0-54 back DI
up throw tipper F smash works on Fox at like low mid 40s + IIRC, and lasts up to as long as like 80% or so maybe even 90 if you don't DI. The easiest average % you are looking for vs Fox is 60%, although it works before and after that by about 15/20% obviously. Up throw take a baby step forward and then if they don't DI you reverse tipper F smash, then C stick if they decide to DI the up throw. The more you do this the better you will get at the timing and understanding, I just gave you a basic guideline. Falco is similar but add the %s a little higher by like 5 or 10% prolly closer to 5 (that's just a random guess) and there you have it.
Also you see my vid vs Shiz where I tried to do up throw Fair to Bair to F throw to Dair (that works I tested it on computers but I know a human would DI in the F throw lol, or I could just F smash tipper) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-diM94E8A&feature=channel_page at 1:02 it begins. Well, I made that up recently but my mistake was wavedashing before the grab - I should have just done a dash grab then F throw dair (or F throw F smash or F Throw down tilt to edge hog then bair).
ANOTHER Mistake at that vid at that same time is after he did the tech roll, I could have gotten him with a dash JC grab behind me before he would be able to shine or dodge, but I suck and got stuck in my turning around animation
These are the %s you don't have to move to do CGs with Marth vs Fox
0-16 Forward DI (sometimes 16 will miss though, but I think usually you will get them)
0-20 no DI (sometimes you will get them at 20 or 21 or so but the soonest you can miss is 20)
0-28 back DI
for up tilt vs Fox without needing to move
0-35 Forward DI (sometimes you will miss at 35 though, I've even had phantom hit bull**** before, but after 35 you need to walk forward no matter what. I think walk forward up tilt works to like 50 something?)
no DI the lowest you can up throw up tilt to knock them UP is like 23 I think that's unrelated though kinda, although honestly I usually do it at about 27/28+ (by the way vs Fox I usually do reverse up tilt because it seems better and it's harder to DI out of assuming they don't DI because you can still dash grab them even if they DI it, while if you did normal up tilt after not DIing up throw all the Fox has to do is DI behind Marth and he can land and tech before Marth can grab him)
0-50 back DI
for Falco
0-15??? (I know it's around like 13-16 or something idk, it's actually the same or less than Fox) Forward DI
0-25 no DI
0-31 back DI
for up tilt vs Falco
0-42 Forward DI
not sure for the no DI thing (unrelated thing see the Fox note above) I think it's like 30 something + but again this isn't exactly related to the "don't need to move" thing but more like a "don't need to move until it knocks them over on the ground instead of just completely missing" type of thing
0-54 back DI
up throw tipper F smash works on Fox at like low mid 40s + IIRC, and lasts up to as long as like 80% or so maybe even 90 if you don't DI. The easiest average % you are looking for vs Fox is 60%, although it works before and after that by about 15/20% obviously. Up throw take a baby step forward and then if they don't DI you reverse tipper F smash, then C stick if they decide to DI the up throw. The more you do this the better you will get at the timing and understanding, I just gave you a basic guideline. Falco is similar but add the %s a little higher by like 5 or 10% prolly closer to 5 (that's just a random guess) and there you have it.
Also you see my vid vs Shiz where I tried to do up throw Fair to Bair to F throw to Dair (that works I tested it on computers but I know a human would DI in the F throw lol, or I could just F smash tipper) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-diM94E8A&feature=channel_page at 1:02 it begins. Well, I made that up recently but my mistake was wavedashing before the grab - I should have just done a dash grab then F throw dair (or F throw F smash or F Throw down tilt to edge hog then bair).
ANOTHER Mistake at that vid at that same time is after he did the tech roll, I could have gotten him with a dash JC grab behind me before he would be able to shine or dodge, but I suck and got stuck in my turning around animation
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I didn't think you could throw Falco up until like 3 or 4 without him being able to escape.
Do you have any idea when Fox/Falco can jump before the tipper? I clock it somewhere around like 61.
Do you have anything on up-throw vs. Falcon? I usually just chuck him, chase him and poke him off but I don't really know what % I can f-smash him.
Edit: I remember you making a thread about the reverse f-air stuff. xD You could have just f-smashed. It still looks cool though. You could have probably gotten an up-air in place of the b-air and then done an up+b to look flashy lol
Do you have any idea when Fox/Falco can jump before the tipper? I clock it somewhere around like 61.
Do you have anything on up-throw vs. Falcon? I usually just chuck him, chase him and poke him off but I don't really know what % I can f-smash him.
Edit: I remember you making a thread about the reverse f-air stuff. xD You could have just f-smashed. It still looks cool though. You could have probably gotten an up-air in place of the b-air and then done an up+b to look flashy lol
Mew2King
King of the Mews
you can't up throw Falco at 0% if he DIs behind you. He will always land. On the flip side if he DIs forward you can get him at 0% with a standing regrab, but it's the opposite for Marth's forward throw. F Throw regrab works if he DIs in but with away DI Falco can escape. Lol it's kind of a guessing game. I usually down throw at 0, or whatever direction the edge is, then down tilt it.
with no DI they can't escape till like 80%+ lol. Probably more. Once they get to like 70% + just do SH uair a few times. At like 90 do up throw (let them DI) then go for Fair + Dair (if they are smart they will not DI the Fair or DI away)
also near the edge down throw to dash-off-stage Dair actually combos at mid/high % if they DI in xD
idk much about falcon ask cactuar. The higher tier the character the more I know about them pretty much >_>
with no DI they can't escape till like 80%+ lol. Probably more. Once they get to like 70% + just do SH uair a few times. At like 90 do up throw (let them DI) then go for Fair + Dair (if they are smart they will not DI the Fair or DI away)
also near the edge down throw to dash-off-stage Dair actually combos at mid/high % if they DI in xD
idk much about falcon ask cactuar. The higher tier the character the more I know about them pretty much >_>
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I think Falco can shine instead of landing if he DIs like that xD
Sleepy
Smash Ace
can you utilt sheik after fthrow uthrow or does she have to not dj? I know someone probably answered it earlier, but I don't feel like going all the way back through. I know m2k probably knows this
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
mew2king, help me find ridiculous gimps on space animals and assorted high tiers with link.
Sleepy
Smash Ace
actually I used to main link myself...
I'm not m2k but I may be able to give you some nice ones.
if you get them offstage runoff nair, any distance just upb near ledge. You could always try out the dash to the edge, momentum thing where link does upb and grabs the ledge, just don't press too hard otherwise link will fly off to his death. I dunno if you get marth off the stage he's not super hard to edgeguard with link provided you know when he's gonna go for the ledge with upb, and you can block him with just falling nairs and stuff or ftilt lol
I wouldn't try link vs sheik though, one grab and your life is gone, and link ain't exactly a mobile character
IrArby
Smash Ace
By combining this great advice with Isai's "Don't get hit" I have become unstoppable. MM anyone?
In all seriousness, I can't help but appreciate the dichotomy between players too inexperienced to understand and players too well versed to properly explain.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
up throw up tilt sheik usually around like ~10 to low 30s. After low 30s I just do Fair
Binx
Smash Master
I'm gonna MM a samus and I'm just wondering what I have thats inescapable, obviously fair through missiles, don't be in CC dsmash range, be careful of missiles off the ledge save my double jump to recover (duh)
Is dtilt vs samus a good option? also when i grab at low medium and high percents whats the best option I usually fthrow smash at very low percents, fthrow wait for a nair and regrab or fthrow fair if I don't think a nair is coming, at high percents I just throw towards a ledge and go for uairs when they get back or edeguards.
Is dtilt vs samus a good option? also when i grab at low medium and high percents whats the best option I usually fthrow smash at very low percents, fthrow wait for a nair and regrab or fthrow fair if I don't think a nair is coming, at high percents I just throw towards a ledge and go for uairs when they get back or edeguards.
Proverbs
Smash Lord
Huh, can you link me to a video to show me this? I guess I haven't heard about this at all o_o;;
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I do this all the time. It's fairly simple, if you dthrow near the edge you can just miss the tech and DI away and the initial bounce can take you over the edge, which usually just autograbs at that point. At higher percentages it doesn't work that well because I think you bounce a little higher if you miss the tech.
You can only Fsmash them if they miss the tech and land after the bounce. Any earlier and your still in your throw animation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=843AovFJg-I&feature=related
At 0:50 is a perfect example of this tactic.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
ALL you do vs samus is space/camp fair intelligently (and Bair between her bomb recovery). If you do it right she can't ever down smash you. If she missile camps don't even approach her. Double jump around them. Stall the entire time. I almost jv 5 stocked triad by just doing this. Waiting game, but Marth waits better. You should never get hit by missiles unless you're being careless.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Binx
Smash Master
Thanks M2K.
Nike.
Smash Hero
Question. When edgeguarding falcon, whats the best option when there under the stage and with their jump (as if you threw them off)
Would nair from edge be a good option? Vid has the marth player doing it ALOT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogVTC5qnUsA
or is it better to dtilt? I shy away from fsmash cuz they simply tech it and immediately upb onto the stage during the lag.
Would nair from edge be a good option? Vid has the marth player doing it ALOT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogVTC5qnUsA
or is it better to dtilt? I shy away from fsmash cuz they simply tech it and immediately upb onto the stage during the lag.
It is safer to just stand on the stage and dtilt. I don't really go for anything crazy off stage unless the risk is worth it (I'm at super ridiculous percent and I just threw them off at 0%). You have to weigh your decisions.
cykofox
Smash Ace
cactuar please tell me how you make your fox run around like a cockroach in between stocks.
Aesir
Smash Master
All he does is wavedash.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Cactuar, you make me feel better about this game. <3 Smash idol.
You're awesome, now teach me how to get to the ledge while Fox or Sheik stall it.
You're awesome, now teach me how to get to the ledge while Fox or Sheik stall it.
Prince Of Fire
Smash Lord
Questions-
Marth Dittos-I suck at them. Now I know I should probably be fairing and spacing yada yada in this matchup but I feel like if I approach with fairs the Marth is just going to sit back and be like, "LOL, eat a tipper fsmash." At low percents what should my grab setup be? I've heard two F throws to an u throw is nice on the third and do u tilt and stuff but I find that Marth can always get out of my combo regardless of if I tipper him, or not. Also, int his matchup I find myself always struggling to get that edge guard, or kill. Is d tilt the safer option? F smash more effective? Advice please.... Also, does anyone find Yoshis Story to be a BS marth ditto stage? LOL
Sheik-Sheik is my worst matchup, period. I lose to scrub sheiks, good sheiks....all kinds. I usually grab her and do u tilt crap and get her to a good 40-50% with ease and do a load of uairs on her....but the fact that she can combo marth so friggin easily aggrivates me to hell. She can also do the easiest crap from a grab and either re grab me, or do an usmash, uair, or fair with no effort at all. If the sheik d throws me near the stage and I suspect a fair i find if i DI it away she can just grab the ledge after missing that fair and bair me from a ledge hop. This match up is the dumbest in the game in my opinion. HELP.
Marth Dittos-I suck at them. Now I know I should probably be fairing and spacing yada yada in this matchup but I feel like if I approach with fairs the Marth is just going to sit back and be like, "LOL, eat a tipper fsmash." At low percents what should my grab setup be? I've heard two F throws to an u throw is nice on the third and do u tilt and stuff but I find that Marth can always get out of my combo regardless of if I tipper him, or not. Also, int his matchup I find myself always struggling to get that edge guard, or kill. Is d tilt the safer option? F smash more effective? Advice please.... Also, does anyone find Yoshis Story to be a BS marth ditto stage? LOL
Sheik-Sheik is my worst matchup, period. I lose to scrub sheiks, good sheiks....all kinds. I usually grab her and do u tilt crap and get her to a good 40-50% with ease and do a load of uairs on her....but the fact that she can combo marth so friggin easily aggrivates me to hell. She can also do the easiest crap from a grab and either re grab me, or do an usmash, uair, or fair with no effort at all. If the sheik d throws me near the stage and I suspect a fair i find if i DI it away she can just grab the ledge after missing that fair and bair me from a ledge hop. This match up is the dumbest in the game in my opinion. HELP.
Binx
Smash Master
Marth dittos are all about abusing grabs.
Running dtilt seems to work for me (stole this from m2k), with correct spacing they shouldn't be able to punish it very effectively, once you jump you are committed to something so be careful about when you choose to aerial. Your grab set up should be, either baiting any move except retreating fair (then you can dash attack if you time if right, make sure to tipper it)
If you grab at 0 percent I like fthrow fthrow uthrow wait out the forward b and utilt, or utilt if you don't think they will forward B, if you miss the utilt because they forward b you either can utilt again, or chase with a fair or bair depening on which way you expect them to double jump, just start it immediately after your utilt. You can be faired back during that however and if it tippers you could be looking at serious damage, so its up to you, thats my favorite option so far.
Any other grabs will probably be after your own fairs connect at low percents, or from tech chases and them missing when they are at higher percents.
Vs Sheik - DI the throw up and then Fair her, if they aren't good at the game that will catch them off guard then throw and fsmash them out of a tech chase, or get the off the ledge any other way. Once they are off the ledge you just need to guess if they are going for the stage or the ledge. M2K seems to cover both pretty effectively with auto canceled nairs from the ledge to the stage with a waveland back off. It creates a lot of motion that might throw off their timing or keep em guessing. Once they go on the stage, waveland past them and fsmash them back off, repeat about 30 times until they die.
About DIing the throw upwards, if you do this even good sheiks can really only forward tilt fair or nair afterwards, no extra grabs, if you get them used to this then sneak in a DI away every now and again and you can try to punish any openings they leave after their forward tilt.
I personally just make it my goal to get them off the edge and try to take advantage the same way you would vs any other character, I still don't have my gimps down in dittos and I'm not really sure what you should do.
Running dtilt seems to work for me (stole this from m2k), with correct spacing they shouldn't be able to punish it very effectively, once you jump you are committed to something so be careful about when you choose to aerial. Your grab set up should be, either baiting any move except retreating fair (then you can dash attack if you time if right, make sure to tipper it)
If you grab at 0 percent I like fthrow fthrow uthrow wait out the forward b and utilt, or utilt if you don't think they will forward B, if you miss the utilt because they forward b you either can utilt again, or chase with a fair or bair depening on which way you expect them to double jump, just start it immediately after your utilt. You can be faired back during that however and if it tippers you could be looking at serious damage, so its up to you, thats my favorite option so far.
Any other grabs will probably be after your own fairs connect at low percents, or from tech chases and them missing when they are at higher percents.
Vs Sheik - DI the throw up and then Fair her, if they aren't good at the game that will catch them off guard then throw and fsmash them out of a tech chase, or get the off the ledge any other way. Once they are off the ledge you just need to guess if they are going for the stage or the ledge. M2K seems to cover both pretty effectively with auto canceled nairs from the ledge to the stage with a waveland back off. It creates a lot of motion that might throw off their timing or keep em guessing. Once they go on the stage, waveland past them and fsmash them back off, repeat about 30 times until they die.
About DIing the throw upwards, if you do this even good sheiks can really only forward tilt fair or nair afterwards, no extra grabs, if you get them used to this then sneak in a DI away every now and again and you can try to punish any openings they leave after their forward tilt.
I personally just make it my goal to get them off the edge and try to take advantage the same way you would vs any other character, I still don't have my gimps down in dittos and I'm not really sure what you should do.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Marth dittos are my absolute favorite matches to play.
They are so much fun.
XD
They are so much fun.
XD
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Marth ditto - Dash attack is amazingly broken for breaking DD/space camping. Eventually (if they don't suck) they'll learn to cancel into shield to stop this. At that point you need a good mix up with grabs. F-smash when appropriate (hit them out of aerials, etc.) DI well, never try to jump out of a Marth's combos. Edgeguard without fail X.X This will mean a lot of b-air.
Vs. Sheik - LOL This match up is hard to impossible at any level. If you must do it... Learn to CC jabs/tilts/weak aerials to grabs. CC some stronger stuff to f-smash. WD out of shield really well to deal with pressure/needles. You have to kill from single hits which is bad because you can't really combo Sheik for balls if Sheik can DI. I guess u-air juggle and try to edge guard eventually. Most sheiks/players will spam side step which is like the worst defensive option at all times and is super punishable. Counter pick to Mute City or FD. Better yet, go Fox or do the Sheik Ditto.
Vs. Sheik - LOL This match up is hard to impossible at any level. If you must do it... Learn to CC jabs/tilts/weak aerials to grabs. CC some stronger stuff to f-smash. WD out of shield really well to deal with pressure/needles. You have to kill from single hits which is bad because you can't really combo Sheik for balls if Sheik can DI. I guess u-air juggle and try to edge guard eventually. Most sheiks/players will spam side step which is like the worst defensive option at all times and is super punishable. Counter pick to Mute City or FD. Better yet, go Fox or do the Sheik Ditto.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Euro***ia!!!
Scar
#HarveyDent
here ill summarize marth dittos for you - dash dance grab then do stuff
and 0% dash attack -> up tilts
F throw 0-6 up throw at 7+, up throw up tilt after this, at 20% up throw tipper fairs, at 40% up throw center hit fairs
i do more stuff so it's not boring, but that's the bread and butter
figured out by me, cuz im perfect
edit - this is m2k
OOPS
and 0% dash attack -> up tilts
F throw 0-6 up throw at 7+, up throw up tilt after this, at 20% up throw tipper fairs, at 40% up throw center hit fairs
i do more stuff so it's not boring, but that's the bread and butter
figured out by me, cuz im perfect
edit - this is m2k
OOPS
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Binx
Smash Master
luls yeah vs sheik its all about getting her off the ledge, if they crouch cancel a lot you can tipper fair into forward smash, most people don't tech it. The trick is to be just a little to close then short hop away fast fall and nail em with the end of the fair while they are trying to crouch cancel what they expect to be spaced poorly. I shouldn't have to tell anyone not to try and create this situation but if it comes up its a good option, even if you just tipper the shield its difficult to punish.
metashinryu
Smash Ace
got a question(REALLY n00bish i know but marth is my 3rd char so...) here does double fairs can be done with shorhop? i only get 1 fair like that...