Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Binx]

I think I'm gonna go back to Marth as my main secondary and I was wondering what the most effective ways to handle the ditto are. My friends and I are pretty close in the dittos we were doing, and I know I am missing some easy gimps.

Some links to good Marth dittos would be the most helpful, I couldn't find any. obviously I know fthrow fthrow uthrow > whatever, and dthrow tech chases. also fthrow forward smash if they don't DI fast enough. And obviously I hit the easy edgeguards if they go to low I can bair them out pretty easy, and such, whats a good way to punish airdoges back onto the stage?

 

[puckgood]

I need to get Seanson's thing... got a download link?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Airdodges back onto the stage can be punished by edgeguarding with smaller attacks so that you still have time to act even after the airdodge. Or if you know it's coming, charge a Shield Breaker or fsmash.

Marth dittos are really all about grabs and spacing. Grabs control the game. Also, position yourself so that it's more easy for you to be in an edgeguarding position, rather than an edgeguarded one. Use fairs to beat nair spam.

If you can, try not to fsmash to finish your combos unless you're close enough to the edge so that you can get it quickly. Marth can be fairly difficult to edgeguard from on the stage itself.

Best Marth ditto, I think, is Ken vs Azen.

The hitbox system. It's a RAR file, though, so make sure you have the right program to unzip it.

 

[Binx]

anyways I've been watching some dittos, and I think my main issue is just decision making, I wasn't using the correct moves in certain situations and I feel like I can handle it better the next time, I definitely need to dtilt more and DI better while being fair'd

 

[Tero.]

Is fthrow uthrow utilt guaranteed if you do that at 0 %?

 

[Binx]

@ Tero not vs Marth, he can DI the throw and jump out, but you should be able to see the DI and follow with an uair.

 

[Tero.]

@ Tero not vs Marth, he can DI the throw and jump out, but you should be able to see the DI and follow with an uair.

Sorry I didn't mention against who, but yeah i meant against Marth.

Anyway i was asking this question because i don't see why everyone goes for fthrow uthrow utilt (and misses) instead of fthrow fthrow anything (like tipper fair or regrab again).

 

[Binx]

because if it doesn't miss you have started a really good combo, if it does miss you can still chase their double jump, its just a different guessing game, best case scenario you utilt and combo, worst case scenario you predict a fair from them and get a free grab again, or you predict anything else and you fair them, if you are wrong you get hit with a fair and neutral position is basically reset.

Most Marths will try and fair you, because if they get fair'd w/o a double jump they are one nair from being off the ledge without a jump, odds are they can sweetspot the up b for a guaranteed recovery, if they miss the sweetspot you kill them with a dtilt, if they do sweetspot they still have to get back on stage against you. So its usually safe to go for the regrab.

 

[Brookman]

talk is just so cheap.

 

[Binx]

Brookman, if I am wrong correct me, I'm assuming thats why. I know thats why i use it. I guess it can get a little bit more complicated if they forward B to change the timing on your fair. Then you have to predict where and if they will use it.

 

[IrArby]

I assume some people do this already but I play pretty much zero dittos so; will bthrowing or fthrowing a Marth who DIs up (expecting an upthrow) put them in position to either be Fsmash backwards or chasing tipper fair? I don't know if people do this commonly as a DI mixup like say Cactuar would do against a Fox. Any ideas? Or is it just generally better to stick with more perscribed throw combinations?

 

[Binx]

Umm, depends on percents, at a low percent f throw will tipper a fsmash. Backthrow at higher percents they can DI up and jump without being hit, at lower percents if they try to jump they get smashed out of their jump, or if they have ground under them I think they can tech before a fsmash can hit them, but I'm not 100% sure. The rare times I backthrow I have time to think because of the stun time, so I do whatever based on reaction.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

You know what's fun? Fthrowing people and then dashing forward and pivoting an fsmash forward. Extends the %range at which fthrow fsmash works. ^_^

Ooooohh, I finally managed to find a way to consistently pivot dtilts and it is **** for shield pressure, let me tell you.

 

[outRAGEous]

i just wanted to see what you all think, ignore everything else except my most recent post with the title(you will taste of my divine ambrosia).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6746611#post6746611

 

[MexicanBJ]

lol sounds interesting, now why would this be more useful than the "normal bair"?

 

[outRAGEous]

lol sounds interesting, now why would this be more useful than the "normal bair"?

because when you normally it doesn't result in certain-death. loook it. if you were to use f-smash, the player can smash di, tech, etc. same with most other attacks, but with dair it's near impossible to recover. the back air especially, have you ever seen that video with ken and chu. ken plays doc, chu is marth, and chu keeps b-airing, even though ken is dead for sure, then he misspaces and falls lol. and characters with grapple can recovery easy with bair ledgeguard. but with dair its inta-death. because you are spacing it away from the stage, they cannot tech.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Why wouldn't you just ledgehop dair?

 

[outRAGEous]

Why wouldn't you just ledgehop dair?

when you ledgehop d-air, you can't turn around so sometimes you hit them into the stage giving them the chance to tech. also it's alot harder to time against things like spacie phantasms

 

[choknater]

It's definitely easier to time those against the spacies' up-B's, which there are better ways to edge guard anyway. Ledgehop dair is if you're really just trying to put 'em away immediately.

 

[outRAGEous]

It's definitely easier to time those against the spacies' up-B's, which there are better ways to edge guard anyway. Ledgehop dair is if you're really just trying to put 'em away immediately.

that's just because you are not used to doing it, it is easier to drop side b.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno, seems like it's not really a combo and can be broken out of rather easily by just like... dropping down after the Dancing Blade hit.

 

[outRAGEous]

it's so quick, if you do it right. almost as quick as the ken combo. im so used to it, it results in death almost ever time, and i just l-cancel to taunt lol.

 

[KosukeKGA]

nevermind.

 

[outRAGEous]

that's so hard to do right, and nearly impossible vs phantasms. it works against firefox if they are under you. you can't do it from the ledge, unless you run off forward, or waveland drop.

edit: well it looks like he editted it above.

 

[Dark Sonic]

They can fast fall after getting hit by the side B to avoid the dair. They can also airdodge, jump, or just plain attack you before you're even able to attack again. They won't do it at first, but with a little practice these escapes are pretty easy to do on reaction.

Bair is just better over all.

 

[outRAGEous]

you have no clue what you're talking about. in the situations that you would do it, the opponent rarely has a jump left in the first place. if they can airdodge, then how come people don't air dodge out of the ken combo? because of hitstun. they might be a able to get a quick neutral off if it is fast enough. but they definitely wouldn't fastfall because they wouldn't have any jumps to recover. unless its someone with a grapple. but it still very hard. and even if they did attack, chances are hits would trade, in which case they would hit you towards the stage, will they plummet

 

[Strong Badam]

side-b has too much ending lag to be able to dair fast enough, and its hitstun isn't exactly amazing either.

 

[outRAGEous]

not if you do it right lmfao

 

[Strong Badam]

okay you do side-b to dair combo with the opponent having double smash DI upwards

record it kthx

 

[Cactuar]

If they are under the stage and you are on the ledge, just bair them.
If they are under the stage and you are on the stage, counter/dtilt/fsmash their recovery.
If you are on the ledge and they are above the stage, you are doing it wrong.
If you are on stage and they are above the ledge, stand there and wait for a forward b so you can jab it, then immediately run off and kill them.

If you aren't fast enough to react to fb with jab, just shield when they jump up to forward b level and immediately wavedash backwards out of shield after they pass through you. Then grab or smash them. You have time.

I think I covered everything?

Also, fb to dair is generally useless. Don't use it unless your opponent is bad and you are just trying to show off. People with good DI will be way out of your dair range unless its like a space animal way off stage without their jump. Even then, you are really just dairing them as they upb while recovering from your fb, not comboing fb to dair.

 

[outRAGEous]

their only option is to up b at that point. not that its an insta-combo. so you would be spiking their up b recovery(firefox), especially with peach her parachute hits the sword.

 

[bolt.]

How do you do a spike while rising to the stage after holding onto the edge with Marth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMP5ASeUX8k&annotation_id=annotation_439742&feature=iv

M2K did it for his first kill in this video, incase I wasn't clear.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

you mean a ledgehop dair.

first you have to be on the ledge
tap down with control stick
jump with any of the jump buttons
hold towards stage
do a down air

 

[outRAGEous]

How do you do a spike while rising to the stage after holding onto the edge with Marth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMP5ASeUX8k&annotation_id=annotation_439742&feature=iv

M2K did it for his first kill in this video, incase I wasn't clear.

what im talking about is looks like the exact opposite of what m2k did there, but just as slick.

 

[Strong Badam]

it either wouldn't work, be pointless, or risk death.

 

[outRAGEous]

it either wouldn't work, be pointless, or risk death.

good point.

 

[bolt.]

Thanks so much, thats been killing me, and yeah that move is extremely slick.

Another question... how do you make sure that you get to the point where marth is always waving his sword around really fast at the end of a dancing blade?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Thanks so much, thats been killing me, and yeah that move is extremely slick.

Another question... how do you make sure that you get to the point where marth is always waving his sword around really fast at the end of a dancing blade?

Aim his blade downwards on the last hit

 

[bolt.]

I got it, thanks. I guess I have a tendency to hold it on the upside all the time. Never noticed that before.

 

[Dark Sonic]

if they can airdodge, then how come people don't air dodge out of the ken combo?

Because the fair has enough hitstun to combo into dair (ironically you can DI out of the Ken combo in most situations). Side B does not.

because of hitstun.

The first hit of Side B doesn't have enough hitstun to legitimately combo into anything (other than the subsequent hits of side B).

they might be a able to get a quick neutral off if it is fast enough.

Or a quick fair, or an airdodge.

but they definitely wouldn't fastfall because they wouldn't have any jumps to recover. unless its someone with a grapple. but it still very hard. and even if they did attack, chances are hits would trade, in which case they would hit you towards the stage, will they plummet

1. They can fast fall and then up B. Most up Bs are not completely terrible at recovering you know.

2. It is not hard. People fast fall to avoid hits all the time.

3. The hits wouldn't trade because their hit would come out first.

This is really not that great of an edgeguard, and the simpler options really are better. Nice try though. And don't tell people that they don't know what they're talking about. There's a reason that people don't do this (they do it to spacies sometimes, but only to be flashy).