Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[aeghrur]

What are the most important basic skills needed to play marth decently?
Like, not the fancy stuff, just basics such as:
L-canceling
WD OoS
and stuff.

 

[Tomacawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfxV1jFWI8&fmt=18
falco ***** me
help? :/
also watch the fox video as well, and let me know which you think I should stick with vs falco
(note, my marth normally does better, but obv. was not the case that night)

 

[DtJ Jungle]

What are the most important basic skills needed to play marth decently?
Like, not the fancy stuff, just basics such as:
L-canceling
WD OoS
and stuff.

l cancelling
wd OoS
wavehogging
cg spacies
learning all the cool little edgehog tricks (takes experimentation)
dealing with falco lazers

and of course

KEN COMBOOOO

 

[Binx]

Learn everything, marth doesn't have any useless techs.

Also guys thank you for the Ditto advice I beat my friend with his own character hurray.

 

[I.B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfxV1jFWI8&fmt=18
falco ***** me
help? :/
also watch the fox video as well, and let me know which you think I should stick with vs falco
(note, my marth normally does better, but obv. was not the case that night)

w/ Marth

- Work on making your edge game more absolute. Watch how he recovers and time(and space) dtilts/jabs accordingly. Try to keep this in mind - "when falco is off the stage = he loses a stock"

- CC more. There were alot of times where he would get in your space then jab you. that jab can get you a free grab, then a free stock. Captalize on nairs, jabs, etc.

- Establish a bubble: yes, this sounds pretty weird, but it is what it is. It has everything to do with spacing your aerials and stuff, and spacing yourself accordingly to where Falco is and where his lasers are. For more, read the "Advanced Laser Theory" section of Mogwai's Falco thread on the Falco boards

Overall: work towards being absolute. Grab = stock, edgeguard = stock, tech chase = stock.

w/ Fox

Didn't have much to say for this one, other than: more shines and better edgeguarding.

Hope that helped!

 

[Tomacawk]

w/ Marth

- Work on making your edge game more absolute. Watch how he recovers and time(and space) dtilts/jabs accordingly. Try to keep this in mind - "when falco is off the stage = he loses a stock"

- CC more. There were alot of times where he would get in your space then jab you. that jab can get you a free grab, then a free stock. Captalize on nairs, jabs, etc.

- Establish a bubble: yes, this sounds pretty weird, but it is what it is. It has everything to do with spacing your aerials and stuff, and spacing yourself accordingly to where Falco is and where his lasers are. For more, read the "Advanced Laser Theory" section of Mogwai's Falco thread on the Falco boards

Overall: work towards being absolute. Grab = stock, edgeguard = stock, tech chase = stock.

w/ Fox

Didn't have much to say for this one, other than: more shines and better edgeguarding.

Hope that helped!

let me summarize your advice
play more marf, play more marf, play more marf
:/ lol
thanks, I guess I will have to play more marf if I want a better vs falco
I've read mogwai's guide on lasers
thanks as always for the advice
Team titans ****ing pulls through on critiques

 

[I.B]

well matchup-wise, it'd be better to go with marth. but if you feel more comfortable playing fox, then go for it. you're at a slight disadvantage with fox against falco at most.

 

[aeghrur]

Learn everything, marth doesn't have any useless techs.

Also guys thank you for the Ditto advice I beat my friend with his own character hurray.

I don't know what everything is. T_T
I also don't have the time to learn everything, lol.
Although, I should search that up.

 

[I.B]

everything would consist of things like: wd, l cancel, ff, sh, wd oos, waveland from edge, knowing how to change aerial timing and spacing, learning to react asap out of everything, etc.

Stuff like that.

 

[Binx]

First off learn everything in these videos

Advanced how to Play Part 1 it will have links to the other videos in the series.

So to cover
Shffling and all its individual parts
+teching
+tech chasing (predicting other peoples techs to extend combos)
+reading DI (predicting your opponents direction influence to extend combos or lead to early deaths)
+reading jumps (predicting opponents attempts to avoid your attacks with a double jump and hitting them, extending combos and leading to edgeguards)
+advanced wavelanding (not as useful for Marth but can land you some fairs or bairs you wouldn't normally get so its worth learning.)
+Advanced edgeguarding (bread and butter Marth edgeguards like dtilt and fsmash no longer work on most people/characters because of better sweetspotting and teching, most edgeguarding in professional matches now takes place off the ledge and is done with fairs reverse up b's rising dairs to the stage, all with calculated timing and prediction of your opponents desired actions.)
+Simple edgeguarding (when someone misses a sweetspot just fsmash them or grab them depending on percents and toss them back off, its free percent and a chance at early leads, it doesn't always have to be difficult to be effective. Never underestimate wavedash back ledgehog with a simple roll.)

 

[Master WGS]

This is probably a n00b/commonly asked question/answered somewhere in this gigantic thread/forum, but I feel like I'm at the end of my rope.

My bro plays a pretty good Fox and soundly beats me roughly 80% of the time. I also commonly get kicked out of tournaments by the spacies, so definitively: WHICH stage is the best to counterpick them, and what're (in your opinion, Cactuar) some of the best approaches on the spacies in general?

 

[I.B]

Stages vs Fox: FD, Battlefield

Stages vs Falco: Yoshi's Story

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dreamland can help you survive against Fox for a long time.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Yea but your going to be chasing Fox forever. I personally hate DL64 because Fox has so much room to run around. Makes it easier to camp platforms and spam lasers. Also it doesnt help that Marth sword wnt go through the platform unless its at the very tip.

I f*cking hate Dreamland

 

[KevinM]

I love dreamland vs Marth.

*begins laser camp*

 

[Brookman]

dreamland is my fav stage vs marth, and just about everyone else.. so big, such fine platforms

 

[Aesir]

I just go falco on dreamland. =)

 

[KevinM]

I love Falco on Dreamland as well, such fine platforms to **** him on.

 

[Prince Of Fire]

Question:

Good places to take Peach? I've heard any neutral aside from Dreamland (obviously, Marth is horrible there.)

but what about for non neutrals? Peach is obviously good on Mute City but what about Green Greens? Rainbow? etc?

 

[Tero.]

Marth sucks on non neutral stages.
Go for YS/PS/BF

 

[DtJ Jungle]

seriously any neutral.

 

[Prince Of Fire]

Yeah, this I know but I fgind Marth is good on Mute City against certain characters. (not peach or jigs obviously)

I think on Mute City he does well agaisnt Fox because its a good 10X easier to **** Fox on that level when hes recovering. All Marth has to do is control the center of the stage and Fox gets *****. Same with Falco....

He does the same on NEU's but because they cant sweetspot...he ***** them. Does anyone else agree that Marth ***** YL and Link on non neutrals? No hookshot.......Against Samus though she can just bomb jump and be gay.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^You have to remember that on the flipside, Marth's recovery is terrible, and he doesn't do well under pressure (especially when confinied to small areas). Marth always ***** character's recoveries, but now they get to **** his almost as hard (remember you you edgeguard Shiek? Well, now they do that to Marth)

You have to be really carefull when you pick non neutral stages.

Against Peach if you really want to go with a non neutral stage, I'd go with Corneria. Green Greens lets you kill Peach faster, but you'll find it's an extremely cramped stage and makes spacing properly very difficult (due to the small side areas and the two platforms in the middle section)

 

[Aesir]

I hate coreria =\

 

[I.B]

just take Peach to FD, honestly.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I hate coreria =\

Are you sure that you don't just hate Fox on Corneria?

 

[forward]

why do i miss cactuar so much?

 

[KirbyKaze]

because nobody ever ****ed you with such intensity while not moving

 

[Cactuar]

That response was incredibly vulgar and surprisingly funny.

<3 Forward. (I'm gonna see you at genesis!!!)

 

[PK Webb]

When i l canel without hitting someone i never miss an l cancel but when i hit someone and air cancel i miss the l cancel about 30% of the time is there a different timing between l cancel if you hit someone compared to if you dont?

 

[Taj278]

<3 Cactuar, we need to do more 2 handed Smash. :D

 

[Tomacawk]

When i l canel without hitting someone i never miss an l cancel but when i hit someone and air cancel i miss the l cancel about 30% of the time is there a different timing between l cancel if you hit someone compared to if you dont?

yes. you have to l cancel later. the same lag happens when waveshining/hitting a shield

 

[PK Webb]

Another question i have is when an enemy is on top if a platform or above you in general is up air a better option than up tilt or is it situational????? SilentWolf seems to use up air alot so i was just wondering

 

[Brookman]

Yeah, this I know but I fgind Marth is good on Mute City against certain characters. (not peach or jigs obviously)

I think on Mute City he does well agaisnt Fox because its a good 10X easier to **** Fox on that level when hes recovering. All Marth has to do is control the center of the stage and Fox gets *****. Same with Falco....

He does the same on NEU's but because they cant sweetspot...he ***** them. Does anyone else agree that Marth ***** YL and Link on non neutrals? No hookshot.......Against Samus though she can just bomb jump and be gay.

*shines your marth off the stage* now what are you going to do? Oh yea, die

 

[Proverbs]

Was just thinking of ways to be really annoying and was curious is anyone already does this:

When you're near the edge of the stage and manage to get a grab on a fastfaller (facing away from the edge) down-throw if you're the correct distance away and watch the tech. If they tech in place, tech away, or don't tech at all (teching away and teching in place would be the same thing since they're right at the edge) you can forward smash and edgeguard from there. If they tech toward you, they'll tend to go in front of you (at higher percents they'll go right behind you, at which point you could f-smash anyway or think of something else). So, if they end up in front of you, just grab and down-throw again and repeat until they stop teching in front of you, meaning they'd need to tech in place, away, or just not tech at all, at which point you can still f-smash and then edgeguard. Anyone does this already?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^They can simply DI away from the stage and slide off after not teching. It use to work, but now people are getting better at sliding off of edges to cancel all sorts of lag (sliding off after techs, platform canceling aerials, holding shield at the edge so they can do stuff after getting pushed off, ect.)

 

[IrArby]

^^^Yea whenever I find myself doing that without concious thought I'm always really impressed with myself. Being an umimpressive smasher, this in itself, is impressive.

 

[Proverbs]

^^They can simply DI away from the stage and slide off after not teching. It use to work, but now people are getting better at sliding off of edges to cancel all sorts of lag (sliding off after techs, platform canceling aerials, holding shield at the edge so they can do stuff after getting pushed off, ect.)

So? In the time they'll be sliding, they're not invincible. The f-smash can still reach them. Just time it. I'm not sure if I completely get what you're saying, but if I understand you correctly, you'd still be within range of an f-smash if you just time it right.

Edit: That and I don't think every smasher is going to slide off all the time. And if they do slide off and don't grab the edge, I believe an f-tilt will dip right below the edge from that distance and knock them back if they try to double jump and grab it, too.

 

[Sleepy]

cactuar your suggestions on fighting sheik and falcon?

Seems like I jump I run into a lot of dash attacks. I mean also to do with shiek's dthrow how do people di it to avoid the mock chaingrab and other utilt/ftilt antics at low %? I heard people say wait for shiek to dodge then uthrow and keep her in the air as much as possible. It just seems like if I don't shuffle fair and land I always get caught with dumb stuff before I hit the floor. I don't even bother trying to nair shiek anymore, it just seems so hard to get it to work out.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So? In the time they'll be sliding, they're not invincible. The f-smash can still reach them. Just time it. I'm not sure if I completely get what you're saying, but if I understand you correctly, you'd still be within range of an f-smash if you just time it right.

Edit: That and I don't think every smasher is going to slide off all the time. And if they do slide off and don't grab the edge, I believe an f-tilt will dip right below the edge from that distance and knock them back if they try to double jump and grab it, too.

I mean it works, but it's not the guaranteed situation that you're making it out to be. The sliding off is much faster than you think. It's much faster than teching. By the time your throw lag is over, they're already off the stage and about to grab the ledge (none of your attacks are actually fast enough to prevent this).

So use d-throw with caution, and only use it sparingly if their within range to do this (against players that know how to do it anyway).

I can't believe you haven't seen this yet? It literally has no lag (it functions the same way as an edge cancel) so no, you can't get them with the f-smash, or even an f-tilt or d-tilt for that matter. It straight up interrupts their bounce off the floor animation only one or two frames after the green sparks come out.