Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

what's an ncr

so no probably LMAO

 

[Bones0]

what's an ncr

so no probably LMAO

If you can't figure out what NCR stands for, here's a hint:

Spoiler

You know you smiled. Black people are cool. :D

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

vs Fox- In this metagame, Marth wins. 55-45 to 60-40.

vs Falco- in this metagame, Marth loses. Closer to 60-40.

vs Sheik- in this metagame, Marth loses. 60-40.

vs Peach- in this metagame, Marth goes even? Or even loses lol.

vs Puff- in this metagame, Marth loses 55-45 maybe 60-40.

What I think Marth should be doing at top level with a fleshed out metagame:

fox: 50-50

falco: 55-45 (Marth)

sheik: 55-45(Sheik)

Peach: 60-40(Marth)

Puff: 55-45 maybe 60-40(Marth)

Yeah, those are my numbers atm too.

Well, except I think Marth's advantage over Fox is not just metagame based, but very real and long-term. Still only like 55-45 though

Marths pretty good guys

 

[MookieRah]

And if you're looking to REACT to hits....then perhaps picking different levels of CPU and reacting to their attacks when you jump or get close to them can help you.

I recommend you work on movement and setting up combos, but then again I recommend that to everyone lol.

I'm pretty much doing both of those things at the same time as the main focus of my time. I'm plugging in top tier CPU chars and varying their CPU levels from 5-8 and working on movement options (wavelanding everything, shai dropping), spacing on everything, and combos. I'm constantly trying to focus on the CPU, with my own movements being secondary, so I'm constantly on the lookout for stray attacks out of nowhere so I can *possibly* DI them. Admittedly I'm still quite bad at that part. I am getting really good at DI'ing properly when I overextend a combo and lose my spacing, but this is just poor play that I'm working on weeding out, and since I'm in control of my **** up it's really easy to know when to DI so it's not much of an accomplishment : P.

On the issue of combos, I've had quite a shift of mentality on them. I think back in the day I was so geared towards those lovely 0-death combos you see that I didn't realize that, in most cases, people who are doing that are overextending like a ************, and that it's exceptionally rare to see those kinds of combos against the best of the best. While it's nice to be able to have the technical ability to pull that stuff off, my focus now is on not just comboing, but also learning when I should stop before overextending, and then trying to turn that disconnect into some kind of mix-up instead of losing momentum (if possible).

Also playing on PAL melee, so those delicious combos to dair spikes are no longer broke as ****. Indeed, Marth has less swagger in PAL.

I remember reading that thread when I started playing. I didn't fully get it at the time but man did it pay off anyway!

This made my yesterday reading this. Didn't expect you to respond to it, was more for the guy that just discovered the concept of manipulating his opponent through his actions. It's nice to know that I contributed something more to this community than a highly overrated Mewtwo and a few cool FC t-shirts XD.

I'm also going to chime in with agreement over PP's matchup list (no point in quoting it again). I was confused during the Mango era, when M2K dropped from being a part of the best of the best. It seemed that lots of people shelved Marth all of the sudden after that, or at least that is my perception of it. I wasn't really *active* then so my concept of what is going on was vague at best.

Also, I just read Umbreon's drastic improvement thread. Agree with most of it, and I think a lot of the stuff I don't agree with would likely end up mostly being semantic arguments over what a mindgame is xD. Well, that and the CP tactic, although if TO's are allowing it to happen it's their fault for not having good judgement.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, those are my numbers atm too.

Well, except I think Marth's advantage over Fox is not just metagame based, but very real and long-term. Still only like 55-45 though

Marths pretty good guys

Fox has so much more potential than he's shown lately imo.

I'm surprised people seem to agree with my list(s.) I figured there was still a pervading negative Marth mentality haha.

I'm pretty much doing both of those things at the same time as the main focus of my time. I'm plugging in top tier CPU chars and varying their CPU levels from 5-8 and working on movement options (wavelanding everything, shai dropping), spacing on everything, and combos. I'm constantly trying to focus on the CPU, with my own movements being secondary, so I'm constantly on the lookout for stray attacks out of nowhere so I can *possibly* DI them. Admittedly I'm still quite bad at that part. I am getting really good at DI'ing properly when I overextend a combo and lose my spacing, but this is just poor play that I'm working on weeding out, and since I'm in control of my **** up it's really easy to know when to DI so it's not much of an accomplishment : P.

On the issue of combos, I've had quite a shift of mentality on them. I think back in the day I was so geared towards those lovely 0-death combos you see that I didn't realize that, in most cases, people who are doing that are overextending like a mother****er, and that it's exceptionally rare to see those kinds of combos against the best of the best. While it's nice to be able to have the technical ability to pull that stuff off, my focus now is on not just comboing, but also learning when I should stop before overextending, and then trying to turn that disconnect into some kind of mix-up instead of losing momentum (if possible).

Also playing on PAL melee, so those delicious combos to dair spikes are no longer broke as ****. Indeed, Marth has less swagger in PAL.

This made my yesterday reading this. Didn't expect you to respond to it, was more for the guy that just discovered the concept of manipulating his opponent through his actions. It's nice to know that I contributed something more to this community than a highly overrated Mewtwo and a few cool FC t-shirts XD.

I'm also going to chime in with agreement over PP's matchup list (no point in quoting it again). I was confused during the Mango era, when M2K dropped from being a part of the best of the best. It seemed that lots of people shelved Marth all of the sudden after that, or at least that is my perception of it. I wasn't really *active* then so my concept of what is going on was vague at best.

Also, I just read Umbreon's drastic improvement thread. Agree with most of it, and I think a lot of the stuff I don't agree with would likely end up mostly being semantic arguments over what a mindgame is xD. Well, that and the CP tactic, although if TO's are allowing it to happen it's their fault for not having good judgement.

When I said movement, I mostly meant frame-tight WDs and DDs, and varied ways to use those 2 movement options(that alone will give you a very very long time to work out without the other options haha.) Granted, having strong technical control over all of the movement options is still really good so I'm not suggesting you stop that haha.

Most combos don't end up being 0-deaths, so it's important to include combo "steps" in which you get an easy followup if they DI well(eg. they're launched kinda close to you but they're by the edge so it's an edgeguard or kill combo depending on DI.)

And yeah Dair sucks in PAL LOL but when you Dair people onstage they can't DI away from you as far so tippers are SUPER easy to set up.

And yeah tight thread haha man we've been around a while LMAO

 

[MookieRah]

When I said movement, I mostly meant frame-tight WDs and DDs, and varied ways to use those 2 movement options(that alone will give you a very very long time to work out without the other options haha.) Granted, having strong technical control over all of the movement options is still really good so I'm not suggesting you stop that haha.

I really have so much stuff to work on that having frame perfect wavedashes is pretty far down on my list, but I'll definitely focus on that on day if I ever get there. I'm only playing right now cause there is a small local tournament (in which the last one only had one smashboarders that was new so I'm just dominating) coming up, and practicing tech skill is something I can do while I'm bouncing my son on his little baby sitter thing or playing with my bonusdaughter. Sadly, nobody much plays smash in northern sweden, it's all in the south. So aside from making a showing to this bi-annual gaming fest thing, there isn't any time or any one to really play.

And yeah tight thread haha man we've been around a while LMAO

Your telling me. When I first came to this site I was a kid, and now I have a family xD. **** gets real.

 

[Zoler]

Fox wins over every character. Every fox main suck.

 

[Tee ay eye]

max, do you mind giving a quick summary of how you think fox should be played? i'm curious.

 

[Construct]

Why do you guys think Fox Marth is so good for Marth? I have a much easier time against Falco. Also, is there any way to get out of drill->waveshine->grab?

Got a reverse Ken combo in tournament today, felt like I was a cool guy for a minute or two there.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

SDI or ASDI the Dair.

The only reason I was ever convinced about it being so bad for Fox is that both sort of have to abuse movement against each other which both are decent at, but one grab from Marth should be a death.

Falco just kills the momentum Marth gets from movement.

 

[Chroma]

PP (and anyone else who wants to jump in, feel free!): What should Fox mains be doing differently to achieve their character's potential? More specifically, what should they be doing in the fox-marth matchup (and fox-falco but this is a marth thread technically)?

 

[MookieRah]

Why do you guys think Fox Marth is so good for Marth?

I think a lot of people, when thinking of tiers and matchups, often leave out the human element. People often think more about the possibilities that one character has over another, but in reality these are all just theoretical. I think Marth has an advantage in this matchup for a simple reason. They both have a lot of crap they can do to each other, they can both gimp each other really well, but at the end of the day Fox players need to perform more tech, and therefore have a larger window for error.

 

[BTmoney]

PP (and anyone else who wants to jump in, feel free!): What should Fox mains be doing differently to achieve their character's potential? More specifically, what should they be doing in the fox-marth matchup (and fox-falco but this is a marth thread technically)?

Rock waveshines, specifically not drillshines. Abuse your superior ground speed to avoid being grabbed. A serious issue for Fox is marth's long WD (backwards) length which gets compounded by Fox's deceptively low horizontal ariel mobility which is compounded by Marth's superior range in the first place. He can retreat away from so many aerials and punish failed approaches stupidly well.

I'll get into some specific stuff I think later but it involves hit lag calculations so I'm not doing that right now.

 

[Stylez]

In a perfect world it would be more like 100-0 in Marth's favor. Sword > Infinite technical prowess.
In our cruel world, I think it's closer to even than 60-40 (Marth)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4WNpvxatCY#t=4m35s
lol

 

[Deleted member]

max, do you mind giving a quick summary of how you think fox should be played? i'm curious.

fox is a broken character because he can choose when to attack. his viability in a MU isn't determined by standard interaction, but rather by how well he can void action from the opposing character. if you are not doing this as fox, you are playing a worse version of pikachu.

the quick summary of how fox should be played is "make the match as unplayable as possible for the opponent". in any match that your opponent can interact with you favorably, ex. a character with a good neutral game and a chaingrab on you on FD being the most obvious example, you are suddenly playing a fair character and you should realize the strategic differences in your out-of-match decision-making (what stage you should strike, ban, or CP to, as well as the base question of whether you should be playing fox at all). fox is not a fair character and to play him like one is either an error or you're cutting your losses (you could switch character, but you think you'd be better off even with bad stages or by not switching).

this can get long and philosophical very quickly. if you really want to go down this road it'll take a couple weeks and i'd like some other people to join in.

 

[Ziodyne]

let's go on an adventure

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think MaxxyB is abstracting too much again.

 

[Chroma]

I'd like to hear a little more about this, if you don't mind.

 

[Deleted member]

basically my entire concept of the neutral game comes from fox play. essentially with fox you can get into these situations where you can convert from neutral into something obvious like grab or shine and then you can just...wait. just wait and see what happens and use fox's natural speed to cover options that allow the opponent to reset into neutral. marth's philosophy of "react and deny" doesn't work here because fox doesn't want to deny the opponent, and in most cases actually doesn't even have the tools to. so instead of stuffing moves like marth wants to, you simply wait for them and react to them.

this naturally sends the message that fox should end up camping in almost every situation. i don't want to put out that message, but it's at least a decent start until you know what you're going for on a strategic level. fox's character beautifully blends the ideas of offense and defense into being the same.

played correctly, fox is like marth in that he gets easier to play the more you make your play decisions linear, but unlike marth it can be much harder to tell what the "correct" decision is at any given point because the character offers so many solutions to any given problem. to me, this is fox's biggest disadvantage- it's too easy to make mistakes on a decision-making basis, not the technical spectrum.

someone add to or refute or question what i'm saying so far. i know this stuff innately but it's hard to transfer the idea into words without some interaction.

summon kirbykaze.

 

[Bones0]

So you're saying Fox is like a game of "Steal the Bacon", but your team has too many players.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

marth's philosophy of "react and deny" doesn't work here because fox doesn't want to deny the opponent, and in most cases actually doesn't even have the tools to. so instead of stuffing moves like marth wants to, you simply wait for them and react to them.

I see no difference in either philosophy for a character by what you are saying here. To react and deny as marth is the same as Fox. At the very least the first step is the same of reacting, but the 2nd step varies by tools. I suppose Marth has the ability to actually space an attack to hit someone out of another. For example, if Falcon Nairs after you, you can stop this with literally any sword move. Fox cannot actually do that, he has to avoid the move.

In the end, I do not see too much of a difference between these two approaches. Ultimately, you are saying Fox and Marth both have to react to what someone does. How they go about covering certain reactions is different, but that makes sense due to there difference in tools.

To be honest, I think Falco, Sheik, Marth, Fox, and Falcon all want to play this sort of game of react and punish because they can achieve that sort of thing. Although, someone like Peach, and Jiggs cannot do this very well, so I have absolutely no idea how to play them.

 

[Deleted member]

good job agreeing with me using a disagreement. it's like watching you come to the same conclusion on your own. or you're just rephrasing me with different words, but sure whatever.

 

[genkaku]

I see no difference in either philosophy for a character by what you are saying here. To react and deny as marth is the same as Fox. At the very least the first step is the same of reacting, but the 2nd step varies by tools. I suppose Marth has the ability to actually space an attack to hit someone out of another. For example, if Falcon Nairs after you, you can stop this with literally any sword move. Fox cannot actually do that, he has to avoid the move.

In the end, I do not see too much of a difference between these two approaches. Ultimately, you are saying Fox and Marth both have to react to what someone does. How they go about covering certain reactions is different, but that makes sense due to there difference in tools.

it's the how they have to go about covering actions that makes them play differently... That second step is a pretty radical one.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

To me, Umbreon is saying "react and deny" for marth is not the same as what Fox does. But to me they are exactly the same in strategy only different in execution and that's what I was not liking.
If Falcon Nairs after me as Marth, I'll deny by SideB, or as Fox I'll move out of the way. I'm still denying Falcon.

 

[BTmoney]

Eryx I picked up Peach last night and she is god like easy mode lmao. If you're not eating spacey dairs or tippers then you win every engagement under like 50%. That is half serious.
I'm probably going to add her to my list of viable characters because she is so good. I have no idea how to beat Marth with peach but yeah.

I don't think Marth likes the react and deny philosophy unless all you are doing is dash dancing aggressively. You can however argue that dash dancing really is Marth's neutral game. Marth really needs to fight on his own terms imo unlike Fox. Fox gets a lot of his "stuff" off by punishing mistakes and failed approaches. Marth gets his by punishing poor spacing or just flat out beating a character with range and priority. The way he goes about winning in neutral or starting an offensive sequence is much less safe.

When I play Marth I don't ever really feel safe. With fox I can say, I can come down with a late dair and shine to beat this option while fishing for offense at the same time and do so repeatedly without being punished.

 

[knightpraetor]

marth is never really safe in that sense. it's more like you make them respect your space using your dashdance so that they constantly have the threat of you grabbing them. If your grabs are ****ty as marth, then the opponent won't respect your space at all, and you had better start planning to dodge some nairs and get that grab. just standing there and dodging doesn't work as well as posturing with aggressive forward motion and then dodging. Also if the opponent isn't swinging when you enter range then you gain the option to just go in their and grab him or poke him until he starts moving more.

peach is pretty good, but I still haven't figured out how to beat high level marth yet either. I beat all the marth secondaries really easily, but vs ether i went 3-5 in friendlies or something. also, I know my peach would still lose to my marth. marth's dashdance is pretty good vs peach

 

[Mahone]

hey if ur in blacksburg u should skype me, i canceled my phone

 

[BTmoney]

marth is never really safe in that sense. it's more like you make them respect your space using your dashdance so that they constantly have the threat of you grabbing them. If your grabs are ****ty as marth, then the opponent won't respect your space at all, and you had better start planning to dodge some nairs and get that grab. just standing there and dodging doesn't work as well as posturing with aggressive forward motion and then dodging. Also if the opponent isn't swinging when you enter range then you gain the option to just go in their and grab him or poke him until he starts moving more.

peach is pretty good, but I still haven't figured out how to beat high level marth yet either. I beat all the marth secondaries really easily, but vs ether i went 3-5 in friendlies or something. also, I know my peach would still lose to my marth. marth's dashdance is pretty good vs peach

Yeah if peach had a decent F-tilt it would make the MU soooo much easier. She can't deal with his ground control and also loses in the air. I guess turnips are what makes it possible and in her alleged favor lol.

I like these Marth boards. The best minds on these boards congregate here.

 

[Deleted member]

max, do you mind giving a quick summary of how you think fox should be played? i'm curious.

let's make this as simple as possible with visuals so no one can possibly miss it. with a children's cartoon.

http://www.animeflavor.com/node/34578

 

[ShroudedOne]

Umbreon, I can't explain in enough words how much I love you for that link. What's more, it's pretty spot on.

 

[knightpraetor]

" She can't deal with his ground control and also loses in the air. I guess turnips are what makes it possible and in her alleged favor lol."

Yeah if peach had a decent F-tilt it would make the MU soooo much easier. She can't deal with his ground control and also loses in the air. I guess turnips are what makes it possible and in her alleged favor lol.

I like these Marth boards. The best minds on these boards congregate here.

This isn't quite as simple as you make it out too. The whole idea of zoning is to place hitboxes in the path of the opponent rather than swinging at them. Peach can easily win over marth's air game if she is placing her moves defensively. it's when she actually tries to approach that it gets complicated. However, turnips are not a very good answer to marth's ground game

ah well, maybe i will just start marth dittoing the marths. marth dittos are pretty fun anyway

 

[AustinRC]

Alright so I read somewhere that you can side b falcon out of his nair approach can anyone else confirm/ deny this? Also what's the neutral game vs falcon for Marth? What options does he have? I have a rough theory that its basically getting inside this certain distance against falcon that's right in between his oos short hop aerial range and his full momentum jump at you aerial. That puts pressure on them but it still loses to grab but yeah. Anyone more insightful on the matchup care to drop some knowledge on me?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Dash dance better than him. First one to approach loses.

 

[knightpraetor]

actually umbreon made a decent post on the basics a while back..you could go search for it.

only thing i would add to his description is that nair is better than he gives it credit, but it needs to be used in reaction to the falcon's movement rather than just approaching with it cause you feel like it.

 

[Deleted member]

marth's nair is a fine move, i just don't tell people to do it from neutral because if i have to tell you that, you don't know what you're doing so the nair will get you ***** anyway. if you know how to nair from neutral, you can just ignore me on it.

so basically if you're kevin or PPU and no one else lol

PPU: you played ****ing amazing in teams. oh my god @ the set vs mango/doh.

 

[BTmoney]

" She can't deal with his ground control and also loses in the air. I guess turnips are what makes it possible and in her alleged favor lol."


This isn't quite as simple as you make it out too. The whole idea of zoning is to place hitboxes in the path of the opponent rather than swinging at them. Peach can easily win over marth's air game if she is placing her moves defensively. it's when she actually tries to approach that it gets complicated. However, turnips are not a very good answer to marth's ground game

ah well, maybe i will just start marth dittoing the marths. marth dittos are pretty fun anyway

Don't take that as an all encompassing statement as it was not exactly written to be interpreted. At the core I do however believe that Marth has a sizable advantage in most situations on Peach. You could however expand on how Peach goes about placing her moves defensively, especially in situations that don't revolve around Marth playing badly.


There are so many questions I want to ask here, specifically, that aren't related to Marth at all. Lot's of sheik/peach/falco stuff.

 

[Metal Reeper]

PP (and anyone else who wants to jump in, feel free!): What should Fox mains be doing differently to achieve their character's potential? More specifically, what should they be doing in the fox-marth matchup (and fox-falco but this is a marth thread technically)?

Fox needs to not approach. Lasers are free. Uthrow Uair all day. Run in and shien. Wait til Marth messes up and **** him. Good Marth's will be patient not get baited by stupid things and usually only try and grab you. I personally think it's easy to edgeguard Marth. Fox vs Marth is sooooo fun after you land shine.

 

[MookieRah]

I find it funny that the style of defensive reaction-based play pretty much describes how I played Mewtwo back in the day. I'd never make a real approach, just wavedash around, poke a bit with dtilt, and wait for other people to commit and mostly shield grab dudes. Apparently I should have been playing fox. I remember Mow telling people around that time that you didn't even need much tech skill to be a "good Fox." Seemed absurd at the time, but considering the meta then, he was completely right. People made so many mistakes back in the day.

This also reminds me of that post PP made about Mango, in which he said that Mango claimed that Melee is actually best played defensively, but he opted to be aggressive just cause it made it more fun to him and the crowd. My first instinct after reading this was to take it with a grain of salt. Despite the fact he was clearly the best at the time, making a statement like that is akin to making a claim that he was so far above the meta that he reached into the meta ahead of him. But hell, he might have been right. This kind of play could have very well been what he was referring to.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP (and anyone else who wants to jump in, feel free!): What should Fox mains be doing differently to achieve their character's potential? More specifically, what should they be doing in the fox-marth matchup (and fox-falco but this is a marth thread technically)?

Be okay with going slower, and doing longer dashes. Be okay with Bair'ing. Play all of neutral instead of always trying to go in. Fox's command of neutral is absurd lol.

Foxes need to be comfortable shooting Marth sometimes and CC'ing him more and throw him offstage more. In other words, SH Nair is and has been the bad staple tactic since 2008(when it became more common) but people kept doing it anyway and now maybe they will stop doing it so much lol. Getting Marth to swing or even come in and then making him hurt for it is pretty good but making Marth afraid to swing in general is better than anything.

 

[Medz!]

Looking for general tips against falco, fox, and falcon. Going to a tourney this weekend and my major threats use those characters. I'm going to be training all Week for this weekend so any tips or advice is greatly appreciated. Anyone like dr. Peepee? Just some quick notes or something if u wouldn't mind.