Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[AceDudeyeah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKM4B6MKJ4#t=9m58s

Wait what? Jumping backwards with Marth to get more grab-edge-height-range is a thing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

falco- PS and don't hold shield too much

fox- don't swing too much and nair in place some

falcon- rarely swing(first) and dtilt

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Anyone ever think that the it is odd that non-clones are put in charges of the clones in the imperial army in the star wars universe?

 

[clowsui]

if there's one phrase/idea that describes the falcon matchup, it's "pin him down"

falcon vs marth is a dumb matchup because while falcon autocombos marth, if marth camps the balls off falcon and plays to his advantages at neutral the falcon (FOR THE MOST PART) relies on baiting marth as his lack of effective range sucks massive balls vs your disjoints and your ability to control the terms of engagement. your strategy should principally be based on controlling his movement and jump points with changes in your own movement (mostly DD, mix in WDs and dash cancels to change the starting point/) combined with dtilt.

so then you're going to say "well, falcon can jump over dtilt!"

and then i tell you that you're a marth player and you should know what happens when people jump at you: you destroy them.

the matchup of course isn't this linear as falcon can play baiting game and also take risks that have a decent risk/reward ratio but this is at the very least how the neutral game should go, which comprises about 50-60% of the best falcon vs marth matches. it's actually a boring matchup when it comes down to it.

if you're struggling in the neutral, go back to marth's basic aggressive movement without committing to anything, although use more WD back out of your DD than you normally would, this will let you effectively DD camp while facing him as much as possible, which is stronger for reaction-based play than usual in this match. you don't want to face away from falcon like you would against other characters because his ground speed is so much better than yours so the ability to protect your back is more important than the raw projected amount of stage you can cover with your own ground control. the reason for facing forward is to both protect yourself and that you want to be able to stuff out his nair pokes with your own fair to grab.

the ability to wait for a nair and to attack his attack with superior range and priority is going to shut out one of his main two approaches from neutral in this match, the other being grab. it's pretty important that you wait and react with your fair to grab on his nair because he can grab you when you land in fair if you don't react. there's a point where human error exists and i can understand getting faked out here so when you land in fair, you should l cancel and buffer it directly into a dash to make the grab whiff and then maybe you can DD grab his grab on your fair. layering your defenses from neutral will go a long way to weakening his approaches on you.

if the falcon player is trying to react to you with a grab, it's okay to overextend after him to cover his dash away on the DD for the same reasons he can do it back to you, except falcon's WD back coverage isn't nearly as good. if you go this way, when you run extra far to catch his dash away, do dtilt. the idea isn't to lead into an advantage, but merely to disrupt his movement well enough that you can go back to a reactionary stance. whether your dtilt hits or not, you should still focus on reaction and treat the situation like an extension of the neutral game. you should also absolutely get the IASA off of the dtilt to cover yourself defensively, once again layering defenses in neutral. what you cancel into for the IASA is your choice, but i'd recommend against jumping just to minimize the risk of trades because marth hates trades. if you're not sure what to do, WD back is a pretty-idiot proof bet but you're going to miss a lot of chances to react to falcon if you do that from the space you're forfeiting by moving back. you can try a shortened WD back out of the dtilt for a compromise but the spacing is a finesse thing and you're just going to have to practice and use your best judgment to retain your ability to work with anything the falcon player gives you.

this match is won in the neutral game, and IMO marth has the advantage however slightly because of fair on his moves (usually nair), a better WD back, and the ability to disrupt him better if you're both movement camping. keep in mind that his punishment options are better than yours and that any time he can upair all day you're basically going to lose.

Austin i remember you making a post about falcon after these two posts had appeared but no one answered you so you're making a point to make an inquiry again. so here you go, these posts answer your falcon question pretty well.

 

[Chroma]

Rock waveshines, specifically not drillshines. Abuse your superior ground speed to avoid being grabbed. A serious issue for Fox is marth's long WD (backwards) length which gets compounded by Fox's deceptively low horizontal ariel mobility which is compounded by Marth's superior range in the first place. He can retreat away from so many aerials and punish failed approaches stupidly well.

I'll get into some specific stuff I think later but it involves hit lag calculations so I'm not doing that right now.

Be okay with going slower, and doing longer dashes. Be okay with Bair'ing. Play all of neutral instead of always trying to go in. Fox's command of neutral is absurd lol.

Foxes need to be comfortable shooting Marth sometimes and CC'ing him more and throw him offstage more. In other words, SH Nair is and has been the bad staple tactic since 2008(when it became more common) but people kept doing it anyway and now maybe they will stop doing it so much lol. Getting Marth to swing or even come in and then making him hurt for it is pretty good but making Marth afraid to swing in general is better than anything.

Thanks guys! I'll try these out in my game and see what I can successfully implement.

 

[Kadano]

How do you deal with overshot nairs by Fox? I always get hit by it out of my dashdance.

 

[FrootLoop]

dashdance better

 

[knightpraetor]

best ways i've found to deal with overshot nairs.

A. actually go in and grab them. first, more likely they will see you turn back and swing early.. you just have to learn to vary your dashdance better.

B. dash under it (good for when you're cornered)

C. SH at a timing such that if they come in you can swing you can fastfall fair them and then if they dash away you still can catch them. They will most likely shield it if they aren't able to dodge, but then you have them pinned and should wreck them for being in shield

D. play peach. peach has a hundred problems with fox, but overshot nair is not one of them

 

[Bones0]

If you actually have room to keep moving back, WD and then pivot grab instead of just one or the other. M2K does this stuff constantly and it makes it really annoying to overshoot vs. him because you feel like you're on top of him by the time you're jumping. I'm not too good at these options so I could be wrong in recommending them, but a few alternatives that I've seen people use are crossing them up with a dash of your own so that you are behind them, and also just dtilting/utilting them as they run through you (expecting you to dash away). Puffs do that WD under aerials to cross up their opponents all the time, but her hurtbox is also a lot smaller than Marth's (though Marth's is still pretty nice during the WD because of how he crouches down). I'm not really sure how much of this is reading vs. reacting or how risky they are in any given situation.

 

[Kadano]

Thank you, knightpraetor and Bones. I will give my best to internalise these options. I feel that when fighting against Fox, I have to react much faster than against most other characters so I base my decisions more on (bad) habits I developed while playing inferior opponents than on proactive thinking.

 

[MT_]

Rolls using sparingly when you realized they are overshooting a little too late for dimpling grabbing them early or running past them works really well and is an easy maneuver. It will give you the positioning advantage if they aren't expecting it (use sparingly) and will make them more hesitant to overshoot in future neutral encounters. M2K does these when he realizes he didn't read the overshoot and will roll before the nair can even hit his shield.

And yea, what KP and Bones said are good too.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

dashdance better

Marth ditto. Advance on their dash back, and poke feet. Proceed to do stuff.

 

[BTmoney]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gycABjchqqE&playnext_from=TL&videos=sh1I2essHkQ

 

[Oasys17]

PP, for a really ambiguous question, could you explain how and why you use sideb>uptilt? Is it percent/spacing/DI based? Or is it just a quick setup for an easy kill at high percents? Both? o:

 

[Bones0]

If you want to know why someone uses something, you should just look at the results of what is being done and compare it to the alternatives. If someone is DDing and side-B, utilts out of it immediately for a KO, you can figure out on your own how and why it was used. How is pretty simple. You just space it with a DD. Why you do something is a matter of figuring out how side-B, utilt furthers your advantage in the match. If you can't figure out a concrete reason as to how a specific tactic gets you closer to victory, it's probably unnecessary, useless, dangerous, or any combination of the three. If you're looking to PP vs. Armada from Apex as an example, side-B, utilt gave PP a great tool to interrupt Armada on reaction out of DD, a great tool for continuing momentum when a combo would have normally been ended prematurely, and, arguably the most important, it led to a safe and reliable kill setup. Like everything in the game, it is very percent/spacing/DI dependent. I am unable to think of anything in Melee that isn't.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The best way to punish overshot nairs is to run up and grab Fox as he's dashing forward in order to get the extra distance needed to actually overshoot. KP more or less said this, but I felt like elaborating. You can also crouch cancel grab them at low percents.

Or you can alternatively react well with your huge hitboxes.

 

[Oasys17]

The reason I asked was because literally every time I saw him Side B, he'd hit an uptilt after wards. I can't seem to do so unless they're at a pretty high percentage :/ And I wasn't referencing a specific video.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth's side-b isn't very useful at the low-to-mid percent range. At high percent, Marth's throws can't really combo into KO moves on floaties, so side-b is one of the best fast and relatively safe moves in the neutral that can lead to that u-tilt KO. But excluding the situation where you face a high percentage floaty, side-b is not really worth it for the most part. Marth usually has far better options.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, for a really ambiguous question, could you explain how and why you use sideb>uptilt? Is it percent/spacing/DI based? Or is it just a quick setup for an easy kill at high percents? Both? o:

If I'm unsure but want to use a quick move, I side B.

If I want to establish threat, I side B.

If I want to catch someone OOS, I side B.

If I want to catch someone higher in the air but am running, I side B.

I mostly use it at higher percents to set kills up.

 

[S l o X]

fruitloop how you doing with marth lately?

 

[FrootLoop]

Every tourney I play noticeably better. Still getting messed hard up by lasers, and I keep losing to trail's ice climbers (what is that matchup even about?), but other than that I like my play/improvements. You're toast next time slox!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I thought I knew how to play Marth/ICs, but it really is a silly matchup. Dunno how Marth is supposed to interact with iceblocks without putting himself in bad positions...

Umbreon, do you have any light to shed on it? I know you played with Chu some.

Or anyone else really.

 

[Deleted member]

fair very, very cautiously. i never have an ice block problem, but then again i'm a fairly aggressive marth player.

 

[Bones0]

Advice?
Bones (Marth) vs. PB&J (Fox) ft. pokemongeof with a frame perfect sneeze
Bones (Marth) vs. PB&J (Fox) (ends at 13 mins)

OBVIOUSLY, I'm ******** for getting shine spiked the same way 20 times, so no one needs to mention that. -_-
I know I'm not supposed to DJ/fair/side-B like that, so the fact that I couldn't change it up in between games, let alone mid-game, frustrates and worries me...

 

[ChivalRuse]

As an ICs main and a Marth secondary, I can give a few tips on the matchup.

1. Try to get Popo into the air. U-throw achieves this well.
2. D-tilt works wonders. Spaced fair on shield to d-tilt is a killer.
3. Nair sucks.
4. F-smash whenever you know it will hit.
5. Edgeguard offstage when Popo is recovering from far.
6. Bait wavedashes and punish maximally (usually an f-smash is the best you can do to synced ICs).

 

[Vivec]

I'm not too sure how to approach Doc, any tips?

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think nair's actually like

really good against ICs

and robbles agrees and says it's a bull**** move against ICs

 

[Bones0]

I'm not too sure how to approach Doc, any tips?

The Mario Bros. all rely pretty heavily on their WD game (Doc players will occasionally DA), which means dtilt is a ***** for them to deal with. Once they start heading to the air, then you just fair or DD grab. Things only get complicated once they start using pills or fireballs, and fireballs are awful anyway. Idk anything specific on dealing with Doc's pills. I've seen some Marths swat at them for a minute before finding an opening, but I prefer to just play around them (which often means ignoring them completely once they bounce over you) and punish Doc's lag. I think I got pretty lucky as far as being able to intuitively navigate projectile walls go, so it may be harder for others to mentally keep track of their trajectories while simultaneously pushing into their space without some conscious focus/practice.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Tai. Nair isn't bad in itself against ICs. But it's bad by comparison to fair. Nair has limited uses, but fair is generally safer and opens up the opportunities you need far more reliably.

 

[Vivec]

Also I was curious if there was any way to punish the double-laser ledge return tactic (I'm also not sure what the proper term is). My friend usually retreats and uses this to get the upper hand and he is getting fairly proficient at it.

 

[genkaku]

definitely having to read some posts twice to see if they really are talking about wavedashes.
aw, smashboards stopped doing it. What kind of april fools lasts all of an hour?

 

[MT_]

Also I was curious if there was any way to punish the double-laser ledge return tactic (I'm also not sure what the proper term is). My friend usually retreats and uses this to get the upper hand and he is getting fairly proficient at it.

There was a bit of discussion on this a few pages back. The proper term is LHDL meaning ledgehop double laser.

Here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-303#post-15378263

 

[Vivec]

There was a bit of discussion on this a few pages back. The proper term is LHDL meaning ledgehop double laser.

Here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-303#post-15378263

This was incredibly informative. I actually tried grabbing after the second laser and got the same effect that you did against mango, so this might be an interesting punishing tactic that I will try and work on. Thanks a lot!

 

[Construct]

If anyone is still looking for marth ICs stuff, this is a fantastic with thread Taj dropping all kinds of wisdom http://smashboards.com/threads/ics.320118/#post-14243811

 

[FrootLoop]

see I knew I saw that thread like a year ago, but couldn't find it.
Thanks

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah that's a good post by Taj. Every mediocre Marth that I play think they can spam f-smash against ICs and I punish the living daylights out of them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I thought I knew how to play Marth/ICs, but it really is a silly matchup. Dunno how Marth is supposed to interact with iceblocks without putting himself in bad positions...

Umbreon, do you have any light to shed on it? I know you played with Chu some.

Or anyone else really.

Ice blocks are alright. You just get around their WD range and they can't really do them anymore without risking getting hit.

Nair, Fair, and Dtilt all seem to have varying levels of effectiveness. As long as you have more stage and are within Dtilt range you can mostly do what you want, but locking ICs down can be kind of hard due to their WD and ice blocks.

I have limited experience in this matchup but one day I will invent a plan for this and just say that instead of what I kind of know lol.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...egtK1O-ucgU&feature=player_detailpage#t=1049s

A cool little marth combo I did against my friend the other day aha. Thought you guys might find it interesting. Ends in an aerial shieldbreaker to ken combo

 

[Deleted member]

nice grab spam in that match lol

 

[Strong Badam]

grabbing is pretty good