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[knightpraetor]

our hero pewpewu uses nair more than any prior marth ever did. maybe nair is underrated?

though i wouldn't phrase it that way..more like fair is overrated. anyway, i think nair is far safer vs ICs and results in taking space and pushing them back far faster on the platform stages. Not to mention it sometimes splits and in the right percent range can be used to combo into tipper on AWAY DI. but it's all based on percent range really. ICs are kind of CC heavy though, so nair is pretty good

 

[Bones0]

I want to experiment with using the back side of nair to wall instead of the front. In my head, the theory plays out that if you're playing a character like Sheik who has a pretty high SH, she will get hit by the nair if she tries to just space aerials on you, and while the back side of nair leaves your bottom open, you can just DD if she comes in with a dash attack or something from the ground anyway. It might also be useful vs. Foxes who like to spam FH nair/bair or any character trying to approach from a platform waveland.

Or more likely, it is an awful idea and I am losing my mind after brainstorming random Melee theory in my head 24/7 for 3 days straight...

 

[Deleted member]

last night i asked chu what he thought about marth vs ice climbers and he just said he hates the match and i said "you jus mad cuz i play like a fagbot" and we laughed about it for a while.

why would sheik ever jump at marth from neutral? like, actually, why? ever?

 

[Bones0]

Idk how Sheik works (obviously).

 

[Deleted member]

she throws needles at you and wavedashes back until you do something stupid like jump at her and then she ***** you because it's ****ing sheik. marth using the back side of nair to defend himself against sheik makes no sense because A sheik can just wait for nair and slaughter you and B sheik has no business jumping at marth in the first place even if she wanted to attack for some reason. even if the sheik is ass-terrible and you nair her, you can't convert into any real punishment.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair is slow and Sheik likes da ground

unless it's a farther spacing then there's neat bait-y things there that Marth's Nair can't cover anyway

lemme see soma dese ***bots

 

[Deleted member]

usually when i'm in full blown asshole mode i pick link against chu and dsmash spam because he has to predict me using it and SH fair to beat it which is really terrible if he's wrong.

needless to say we haven't played that MU in a long time LOL

 

[knightpraetor]

sheik can jump at marth when he's dashing back relatively safely at times..but i would never jump at a marth that isn't dashdancing..even when they are dashdancing usually i just jump at marth from a safe range hoping he will try to dash sh fair me when he shouldn't. i've seen tope at times be willing to trade the risk of eating a fair combo from marth in order to land the fair/pin that will lead to a kill, but it's definitely risky. I think like most aerial approaches that it's best done when they are low on room

also nair only sucks against grounded opponents if they are close if you have space you can obviously get nair out. even against fox you can find lots of places where you have the space to nair and i find it tends to work better than the fair would have at super low percents and at higher percents (above 70) . In between i find that fair tends to get me more stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

i disagree with everything you just posted.

edit: kevin i hate u and ur marth is buns

 

[PGH Carroll]

Im back and im playing marth again. Sup homies

 

[ChivalRuse]

How exactly is spamming Link's d-smash even remotely good against ICs? I understand that it has low recovery time, but ICs can certainly wavedash out of shield punish it, or even just bait it and punish easily ...

 

[Deleted member]

How exactly is spamming Link's d-smash even remotely good against ICs? I understand that it has low recovery time, but ICs can certainly wavedash out of shield punish it, or even just bait it and punish easily ...

because i live with chu and i know his **** and i'm a really smart player. and it's legitimately better than it looks. link's dsmash in general is much better than it looks, try it before you knock it. it's kind of like sheik's WD back + needle spam, where you can make anyone look bad no matter how much better they are than you simply because those 2 things together are surprisingly hard to exploit, it's like that.

it's not like i win them all the time, but it's still demoralizing to lose like half of them for the opponent. putting opponents on tilt makes the later matches easier.

 

[oukd]

joe i can try it vs your ics next time we play.
on a somewhat related note, swedish delight was spamming link dsmash at zenith in friendlies and it was surprisingly effective...i just chalked it up to him being a lot better than me haha but i guess umbreon agrees with this technique too

BUUTTTTT this is the marth board not the link board so...uh...marth nair was the last topic <_<
i actually really like nair but i only use it to quickly set up edgeguards or zone with a long duration hitbox when im not feeling confident #notamarthmain

 

[ChivalRuse]

I won a recent small charity tourney today going all Marth, and I must say, I'm liking Marth's nair more and more. It has the un-crouch-cancellable property at low percents and the hitbox is nice for catching people on Battlefield-height platforms and out of the air in general without having to worry as much about spacing as with, say, fair.

@ Umbreon: Yeah I guess I understand how it could work. I mean, if you know how to abuse Chu's patterns then I'm sure you have okay results.

 

[knightpraetor]

if you've played with a link main you would realize that link's dsmash is very much spammable. I don't think it's enough to win against chu, but it's probably as spammable against WD heavy char like IC/luigi about as much as sheik's dash attack is spammable vs marth, by which I mean you can't really spam it, but you can certainly use it a lot cause it's really really good

also i love the non-CCability of marth's nair, and best of all people intending to CC often think you will be in range with enough stuff and try to CC into something when they shouldn't. It's worse than marth's other options for covering platforms in my opinion, but it can combo really well, even into tipper if you catch a waveland correctly. However, if they are just sitting on the platform the high start up means that you can get baited easier than if you just use fair/upair

 

[CyberZixx]

I had no idea Nair was not CCable. I am going to mix that in when people are CCing my fair. That will teach em.

 

[knightpraetor]

second hit only. and it's still CCable, just harder..increased knockback puts them out of range. It's definitely safer if you use it properly though

 

[Dr Peepee]

So weird.....this may be the first time I've ever seen the Marth boards promote Nair. Interesting trend.

To offer an alternative Nair perspective:

Nair is easy to exploit because the first hit is pretty worthless and the second hit takes a while to come out AND is only a small hitbox. Getting on Marth's head or under Marth beats Nair handily, and it means that Marth moving forward with Nair at all leaves him quite vulnerable. M2K wrecked Ken with Fox by waiting for the Nair and then DD grabbing him over and over. It's actually really funny to watch LOL.

Who would attempt to CC Marth in general? I don't see much exploitation of CC'ing like I used to(except with Sami or Peaches lol).

 

[Construct]

I love nair, but I'm not very good so I keep it to myself. Nair in place or out of a DD with slight adjustments of fading back has worked out really well against Fox and Falcon for me. You catch people coming in with it really well, and if you AC it or fade back well enough it can be hard to punish. You definitely can't rely on it too much though or people will bait it out. I feel like it's one of those really useful mixups, sort of like run up shield. In general, I don't think it's very good for approaching at all. It seems really bad against some characters (read: Sheik) but I'm not sure exactly why, I just notice that I usually get wrecked for nairing. I think it's a nice tool that isn't as horrible as people make it out to be, as long as you don't pretend that it's a Fox or Falcon nair.

 

[BTmoney]

So weird.....this may be the first time I've ever seen the Marth boards promote Nair. Interesting trend.

To offer an alternative Nair perspective:

Nair is easy to exploit because the first hit is pretty worthless and the second hit takes a while to come out AND is only a small hitbox. Getting on Marth's head or under Marth beats Nair handily, and it means that Marth moving forward with Nair at all leaves him quite vulnerable. M2K wrecked Ken with Fox by waiting for the Nair and then DD grabbing him over and over. It's actually really funny to watch LOL.

Who would attempt to CC Marth in general? I don't see much exploitation of CC'ing like I used to(except with Sami or Peaches lol).

Falcon maybe?

I also am a fan of nair. When I go Marth it's one of my crutches. This is poorly articulated and opinion with hardly any basis but I like nair as of right now. I am having a hard time describing its use.

 

[Deleted member]

here's another perspective on marth's nair:

cut it from your game play entirely, don't miss it.

 

[Construct]

here's another perspective on marth's nair:

cut it from your game play entirely, don't miss it.

Why do you say this? While it is without a doubt misused and overused, I don't think it should be completely removed from Marth's arsenal. Just minimzed.
edit: "Don't nair" is the mantra I keep in my head, but I still slip it in now and again, and it usually works out quite nicely

 

[clowsui]

nair is only good in exceptional cases

learn the rules not the exceptions

 

[Bones0]

Nair is great as long as there is no risk of you hitting a grounded opponent with the first hit, which unfortunately is the large majority of situations that would be considered neutral. Even with airborne opponents, uair is so much better that nair is usually just slightly worse. If you ever hit a grounded opponent with the first hit, they can easily ASDI down and buffer shield before the second hit. If you only hit with the second hit, it's basically a fair that ACs. I use it vs. people in the air all the time though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Majority of neutral actually wouldn't involve hitting them with the first hit of Nair.

I'd rather Fair people that are already airborne unless they give me lots of time to react to them and they're in lag. Picking my punish option is nice when it's convenient.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do you say this? While it is without a doubt misused and overused, I don't think it should be completely removed from Marth's arsenal. Just minimzed.
edit: "Don't nair" is the mantra I keep in my head, but I still slip it in now and again, and it usually works out quite nicely

that's good. you're on the correct path. i just generalize for a general audience.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Nair sucks except if you know how to use it. The utility that I think it brings to a player of my somewhat low caliber is that it's a strong hitbox close to Marth's body, which means you can utilize it kind of like a sex kick. Using it to cross up people is the biggest use that I've been seeing for it in my own style of play at least.

Edit: Since the hitbox is out longer than his other aerials, this also lends itself to being useful for crossing up.

 

[Bones0]

Majority of neutral actually wouldn't involve hitting them with the first hit of Nair.

I'd rather Fair people that are already airborne unless they give me lots of time to react to them and they're in lag. Picking my punish option is nice when it's convenient.

How do you space/time your nairs to avoid hitting people with the first hit?

Nair sucks except if you know how to use it. The utility that I think it brings to a player of my somewhat low caliber is that it's a strong hitbox close to Marth's body, which means you can utilize it kind of like a sex kick. Using it to cross up people is the biggest use that I've been seeing for it in my own style of play at least.

Edit: Since the hitbox is out longer than his other aerials, this also lends itself to being useful for crossing up.

Crossups are weird with Marth. Aside from a quick cross up grab, I don't really see how crossing up even helps. You'll usually end up turning your back to them, and playing Marth facing away from your opponent is just awful. The advantages other characters get from crossups is they can avoid shield grabs and other OoS options, but Marth has so much range that it hardly seems necessary. I'd rather be in front of my opponent spaced at tipper fair range than behind my opponent where he could attack OoS and hit me.

 

[BTmoney]

nair is only good in exceptional cases

learn the rules not the exceptions

learn the rules and the exceptions

that's good. you're on the correct path. i just generalize for a general audience.

these are the marth boards, melee discussion is general audience

we are, like, pg-13

 

[Dr Peepee]

I do the Nairs at a:

-space that gives me fairly wide berth on the opponent and allows the second hit time to come out

-time in which the opponent is unlikely to attack right away OR giving myself enough time to fade with it so they will attack into me and be hit by the second hit.

*all matchup-dependent as Marth dittos actually can use Nair in some situations among other matchups*

Oh I forgot the most important time/space to Nair:

When I'm not trying to hit my opponent and merely force respect for the move. Zoninggggg

 

[Bones0]

Okay, thanks, that actually makes a lot more sense. You're not really attacking with nair, just controlling space.

Off topic: Could you draw any parallels to how Falco would do something like this (if he even can)? Your description of when to do it reminded me of lasers, but lasers usually lead to shielding/jumping whereas Marth's nair just seems to lead to random hits when they run in or just scaring them from running in at all.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I like nair a bit more whenever the opponent is cornered under a platform and can't go around it as comfortably

 

[clowsui]

i'd like to note that brawl teaches you how to Nair properly

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay, thanks, that actually makes a lot more sense. You're not really attacking with nair, just controlling space.

Off topic: Could you draw any parallels to how Falco would do something like this (if he even can)? Your description of when to do it reminded me of lasers, but lasers usually lead to shielding/jumping whereas Marth's nair just seems to lead to random hits when they run in or just scaring them from running in at all.

Right, zoning.

Eh, I'm hesitant to draw parallels for the two moves, but if I had to...

-establish threat of stopping-type move and later using it to approach/take stage

-establishing flow/momentum by "doing" something.....this is a little weirder to say but I believe it so I'm putting it here

 

[strawhats]

Im back and im playing marth again. Sup homies

welcome back

 

[knightpraetor]

is dashdance > nair? I definitely zone a lot with marth's nair, but I always wonder when facing fox whether i should just dashdance better. Theoretically that seems better in all cases than trying to zone with aerials when marth and fox both have room to dodge.

but then in a tourney setting, you can't assume that all foxes are going to play perfectly and adapt properly to AC nair thrown in.. Realistically I always get free stocks from zoning with nair because people in this game overrate how easy it is to punish 4 frames of lag. Perfect dashdancing seems better on paper, but it's a lot easier to just clip foxes with nair a couple times and then use the respect they give you to get your grabs later.

anyway i think nair is so good when you aren't up against fox/sheik's ground game that a marth misses out if he doesn't try it a bit. It takes a bit of getting used to and will never be good if the marth is not smart enough to be willing to approach after the 4 frames of lag. Biggest problem I see when I watch marth's nair is that they think that because they missed they have to run away every time..and then they get caught really easily cause the fox learns and adapts to the fact that the marth is always dashing back after his whiffed nair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair in place def forces Foxes to respect you. M2K has shown us that.

DD'ing =/= moves

DD leads to moves so if you mean waiting > Nair then that's situational but sure? Not really able to respond beyond this point.

 

[Bones0]

is dashdance > nair? I definitely zone a lot with marth's nair, but I always wonder when facing fox whether i should just dashdance better. Theoretically that seems better in all cases than trying to zone with aerials when marth and fox both have room to dodge.

but then in a tourney setting, you can't assume that all foxes are going to play perfectly and adapt properly to AC nair thrown in.. Realistically I always get free stocks from zoning with nair because people in this game overrate how easy it is to punish 4 frames of lag. Perfect dashdancing seems better on paper, but it's a lot easier to just clip foxes with nair a couple times and then use the respect they give you to get your grabs later.

anyway i think nair is so good when you aren't up against fox/sheik's ground game that a marth misses out if he doesn't try it a bit. It takes a bit of getting used to and will never be good if the marth is not smart enough to be willing to approach after the 4 frames of lag. Biggest problem I see when I watch marth's nair is that they think that because they missed they have to run away every time..and then they get caught really easily cause the fox learns and adapts to the fact that the marth is always dashing back after his whiffed nair.

When I'm playing Fox vs. Marth, I really like abusing running shine, so against a Marth that sparingly zones with nair would definitely deter some of that. If you only DD, it's way too easy to just run at you, and Marth is basically forced to constantly predict either running shine vs. SHFFL.

What do you do besides dash away after whiffed nairs? I can definitely see how that's too predictable and punishable, but I usually feel like they can grab my landing no matter what I do afterwards. Maybe jab/utilt could keep me safe sometimes, but other times that would surely lead to a guaranteed punish if they were patient enough. Dtilt could also be helpful as it beats out any grounded approach (which includes grabs, which is amazing), but then it leaves me vulnerable to SHFFLs over the dtilt. Sometimes it seems like this game is just a ridiculous system of RPS, but I don't like the idea of subjecting myself to obeying that sort of system because that basically means there is a chance of losing if I'm basing my overall strategy around an encyclopedia of mixups...

 

[Theftz22]

Nair is interesting because it's marth's only move which has a prolonged hitbox. When I play as luigi vs marth, one tactic I like is WD towards marth and sidestep any swing. The only move marth has that can punish that is nair, since the second hitbox will catch. Another use of this effect is techcasing on platforms. If I'm below an opponent who's knocked down on a platform, I can use nair to cover all options.

Another use I find for nair is Uthrow->nair at higher percents (past when you can Uthrow->fsmash). Second hit has knockback better than fair or nair, so I use it to get opponents offstage. Both hits also just do more damage than anything else. Nair can be a good combo ender.

 

[Bones0]

Nair is interesting because it's marth's only move which has a prolonged hitbox.

I WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS MISINFORMATION!

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