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Dr Peepee

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side b is alright at least vs falcon because it can counter some approaches and falcon's OOS game isn't that good in general so Marth can get away with it more vs him.

I'm really unsure of usage vs fox/falco/marth/puff/ICs though. Killing potential is there, but at neutral CC'ing sucks but it arguably doesn't do much when you could pick "better" options like Umbreon says. Ken's style of swinging a lot and speeding up the tempo vs his big disjoint character is pretty neat regardless so side b works pretty well for him.

I kinda wanna play with it like he does just to see what it's like. That kind of individuality in play is pretty interesting.
 

CyberZixx

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I got a rather basic question, but it's something I need to know. I know Marth is great vs opponents whom are above him but, especially on platfroms, but I fail to capalize on this most of the time. Not sure what I should be doing to cover options here and getting clean hits. Stuff like, when should I up air someone in the air, i'm unsure of. When I throw someone on a platform nothing really comes from it.
 
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I got a rather basic question, but it's something I need to know. I know Marth is great vs opponents whom are above him but, especially on platfroms, but I fail to capalize on this most of the time. Not sure what I should be doing to cover options here and getting clean hits. Stuff like, when should I up air someone in the air, i'm unsure of. When I throw someone on a platform nothing really comes from it.
marth is great against opponents who are above him, especially without platforms. platforms give the opponent options by giving them a method to stabilize when they otherwise wouldn't have one, and those options can be then used to leverage some kind of defense/advantage against marth. capitalizing on platforms is best done by actively denying an aerial opponent proper usage of the platform. that's a vague way of summarizing a ton of traps, techniques, and finesse into one horrible generalization, but that's what you're going for.
 

CyberZixx

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Is there a guide somewhere about those traps, techniques and finesse because that is where I fail. Knowing someone is disadvantaged is not all that useful if I fail to capitalize on that situation.
 
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try the monkey-see-monkey-do approach of watching kevin's marth on youtube for a while to get a feel for it. almost all of those situations require a trained eye for detail that i can't give to you quickly within a few posts.
 
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Scar vs Ken was some of the funniest stuff I have seen in awhile. I had literally no idea what the hell was going on most of the time.

"Oh, Ken why would keep DBing with the 3rd & 4th one Scar just teched after the 2nd one. Ah, **** scar you tech rolled into DB4."
 

ChivalRuse

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One thing that is nice about side b is that the first hit comes out pretty fast. It's kind of like Sheik f-tilt for swatting people out of the air from the ground. But there's the issue of it not really leading into anything good usually.
 

Bones0

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Scar vs Ken was some of the funniest stuff I have seen in awhile. I had literally no idea what the hell was going on most of the time.

"Oh, Ken why would keep DBing with the 3rd & 4th one Scar just teched after the 2nd one. Ah, **** scar you tech rolled into DB4."
I think you can cover all the tech options as long as you react quickly and end it early for tech rolls behind, honestly.
 

Construct

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Secret technology is the third hit aiming downwards of side-b, it's one of the few grounded meteors and sets up ultra free techchases because nobody sees it coming. Useful at lower-mid percents when you won't be able to follow up with side-side-side or whatever.
 

MookieRah

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you could argue that you can catch people in the air like roy can before landing, but honestly marth is better off taking a free grab/fair/fair > grab into dial-a-combo because he can actually carry someone into a **** position and keep them there until killing them or just kill them outright.
I agree, for the most part, but who has actually tried to see what potential dancing blade has in the past 5 years? A lot of what we are basing this on is old data. There may be something to dancing blade that Ken has noticed, because I don't recall him spamming it in his prime nearly as much as he does now. Of course, Ken could be wrong, and is just using a sub-optimal "trick" well, but he might be on to something too. It's worth taking a new look at it at least. In general, I do think there has to be some uses for the dancing blade that we haven't discovered yet that could up Marth's meta.

Secret technology is the third hit aiming downwards of side-b, it's one of the few grounded meteors and sets up ultra free techchases because nobody sees it coming.
This was all the rage with Roy back in 2004, except for him it was third hit up. Good times, but alas, this is 2013. I'm with Umbreon on this, why create a mixup situation with a tech chase when you can have a more guaranteed throw setup? It would only be good if, A: you catch them in the air when you couldn't have grabbed in the first place, or B: they are at a percent where a grab wouldn't lead to anything. So it's situational at best. I will say that if you are committed to dancing blade then 3rd hit down is a very good decision because it will counter your opponents crouch cancels.

Speaking of crouch canceling, at what percents (on average) can people not CC dancing blade? If we are to try and use this move again, this would be good information to know.
 

Construct

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Well obviously grab is better in general, but you can't grab falcon out of a nair. It's a niche thing, but it's still nice to know. Side-b is situational; that goes without saying. But so is pretty much everything. I don't think I should have to preface everything with "Well usually grab or d-tilt is better, but...", because in most situations they are better and everyone already knows that. That doesn't mean they're the best thing in all situations. Plus, this directly leads into a grab 95% of the time if you're even mediocre at techchasing.
 
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I agree, for the most part, but who has actually tried to see what potential dancing blade has in the past 5 years? A lot of what we are basing this on is old data. There may be something to dancing blade that Ken has noticed, because I don't recall him spamming it in his prime nearly as much as he does now. Of course, Ken could be wrong, and is just using a sub-optimal "trick" well, but he might be on to something too. It's worth taking a new look at it at least. In general, I do think there has to be some uses for the dancing blade that we haven't discovered yet that could up Marth's meta.
Dancing blade can be crouched for a long time, it's easy to DI, and more importantly it's almost always a blind swing from neutral. However, the first hit does have a respectable use for stuffing aerial approaches without needing the dedication to jump because it covers a fairly large range and starts in a good high place to catch an aerial opponent. This is also useful because it can give your opponent the stun of the attack + the fall time to the ground + landing lag, and you may be able to reset the neutral game during this time. Of course, this is more of a roy trick because roy has no interested in jumping to respond to an aerial opponent, while marth minds much less. I can speculate why Ken is doing this a lot, but I don't think it matters here since we can already quantify when the move has its best utility and when other superior options are available.

Grabs can always lead to something, that's one of many reasons why they're so good.
 

Tarv

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I've noticed that sometimes when I try to go for a grab, throw there's a bit of lag. I notice top level Marths can grab and then throw the opponent immediately afterwards. Is this a side-effect of not JCing properly? Im trying to eliminate that pause so my play is more fluid. How do I correct this error?

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.
 

Dr Peepee

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Max, thoughts on side B'ing beyond first hit if you use the first hit on shield already? I do believe using the first hit on shield is pretty good sometimes.

I generally like hitting people with moves or grabbing at roughly any percent. Hitting with a move makes grabs more likely, and vice versa. Getting so dependent on grabs is not good and does not lend to full understanding of Marth's arsenal/abilities as a character imo.

I'm not attacking you Max and I don't think you disagree, I'm just providing a disclaimer haha.
 
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I generally like hitting people with moves or grabbing at roughly any percent. Hitting with a move makes grabs more likely, and vice versa. Getting so dependent on grabs is not good and does not lend to full understanding of Marth's arsenal/abilities as a character imo.
This is just not true. Grabbing and hitting are contingent upon each other only for situations where one leads to the other, but this is not always the case. Very basic example, connecting with Falco's fsmash does not really make you landing a grab more likely afterwards. I'm all about seeing the rule over the exception, but I think your statement has too many exceptions to accept as a general statement. Of course this is where I give my shameless plug that both hitting and grabbing are fully contingent upon the neutral game, but no one wants to hear that kind of content for the Nth iteration.

Side B does have utility on shield but it breaks down into a dichotomy between you and your opponent. For example, if you expect a jump out of shield or you expect the opponent to correctly DI the first hit, you can choose to do the second hit quickly even before you know if the first hit is successful. Of course, if the opponent does neither, the 3rd hit with no direction is good too. The problem with the 3rd hit is that marth/roy dedicate into the move more than the others by moving forward with the swing, which is typically solved by covering it with the 4th hit down for both characters.

I would argue that it is better to try to react to the earlier swings on side B if you intend to use it, and that you should seek superior alternatives before ever using it to begin with. the reasoning is that the prior outlined dichotomy with your opponent does give them margin that can be used to leverage an advantage on you. For a classic example, imagine marth using side B against a crouching falco mashing for the crouch shine. this is not a good place for the marth to be even if he's hitting with the move because the risk for a conversion from falco is so immediately evident.

roy's side b is much better for that character in a relative sense because he does not have any better alternatives. subsequently, roy's entire neutral game when played correctly is movement in and out of grab, dtilt, and side B. marth has better options by default simply because it's so much riskier to jump at marth than it is to jump at roy. next time you play against a roy on FD, replace your ledge game with the laggy full jump from the edge ("the tournament winner") and you'll realize how little he can leverage you against doing it.

The analysis has nothing to do with being dependent on anything, nor does it have to do with a lack of character understanding. you are simply using what you know to be the best option at the time, at least until your knowledge broadens. for marth, that's pretty much just grabbing under the assumption that the opponent doesn't sacrifice themselves to you by jumping at you. using grabs correctly and often is good because it leads to a massive increase in win ratio over the long term, and this is a trend that tends to hold pretty well across the better characters in the game. marth's grabs are just particularly devastating compared to even the other top characters because the advantage they give is so strong.
 

Dr Peepee

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This is just not true. Grabbing and hitting are contingent upon each other only for situations where one leads to the other, but this is not always the case. Very basic example, connecting with Falco's fsmash does not really make you landing a grab more likely afterwards. I'm all about seeing the rule over the exception, but I think your statement has too many exceptions to accept as a general statement. Of course this is where I give my shameless plug that both hitting and grabbing are fully contingent upon the neutral game, but no one wants to hear that kind of content for the Nth iteration.

Side B does have utility on shield but it breaks down into a dichotomy between you and your opponent. For example, if you expect a jump out of shield or you expect the opponent to correctly DI the first hit, you can choose to do the second hit quickly even before you know if the first hit is successful. Of course, if the opponent does neither, the 3rd hit with no direction is good too. The problem with the 3rd hit is that marth/roy dedicate into the move more than the others by moving forward with the swing, which is typically solved by covering it with the 4th hit down for both characters.

I would argue that it is better to try to react to the earlier swings on side B if you intend to use it, and that you should seek superior alternatives before ever using it to begin with. the reasoning is that the prior outlined dichotomy with your opponent does give them margin that can be used to leverage an advantage on you. For a classic example, imagine marth using side B against a crouching falco mashing for the crouch shine. this is not a good place for the marth to be even if he's hitting with the move because the risk for a conversion from falco is so immediately evident.

roy's side b is much better for that character in a relative sense because he does not have any better alternatives. subsequently, roy's entire neutral game when played correctly is movement in and out of grab, dtilt, and side B. marth has better options by default simply because it's so much riskier to jump at marth than it is to jump at roy. next time you play against a roy on FD, replace your ledge game with the laggy full jump from the edge ("the tournament winner") and you'll realize how little he can leverage you against doing it.

The analysis has nothing to do with being dependent on anything, nor does it have to do with a lack of character understanding. you are simply using what you know to be the best option at the time, at least until your knowledge broadens. for marth, that's pretty much just grabbing under the assumption that the opponent doesn't sacrifice themselves to you by jumping around a lot. using grabs correctly and often is good because it leads to a massive increase in win ratio over the long term, and this is a trend that tends to hold pretty well across the better characters in the game. marth's grabs are just particularly devastating compared to even the other top characters because the advantage they give is so strong.
I never said that moves and grabs were necessarily interchangeable, but they both need solid representation in Marth's game in order to see success. Consider a Falco jumping at Marth with Nair but gets Fair'd out of his move(Marth could not pivot grab either due to being boxed in on the edge or wanted to counter the laser if Falco did either option late aka he was primed to Fair and figured the Falco would attack.) The next time Falco has Marth pinned at the edge, he may hesitate. This gives Marth all the opening he needs to move in and grab Falco or take stage that eventually leads to a grab. The hit did not LEAD to a grab per se, but it allows for conditioning to open up grab possibilities down the road. If someone were only looking for grabs then they would feel much more suffocated in the aforementioned situation(which is relatively common in that matchup imo.)

Additionally, when characters are at higher percents, any move that connects really will force the opponent into a bad position(grounded, airborne, offstage) just like a grab would....for roughly similar percent. Since high percents occur pretty frequently(as they should), this does not seem to be much of an exception.

But, more importantly than all of this, is the fact that being overly focused on grabs is a problem. You make yourself, as a player, predictable for it. Now, I think you mention something related to neutral in your first paragraph to address this concern, but I'm not sure.

Either way, if we're saying roughly the same thing, which is that grabs are amazing but moves are not THAT much worse than them and even sometimes "better" because of conditioning or other matchup-specific variables, then this was just a fun writing exercise. I'm always not really sure how you factor in neutral to your points you give other people, and I tend to focus more on neutral and playing the player in my discussions while you want to teach the hard fundamentals of characters people don't often get. I think both of our perspectives are pretty important, and ultimately I recognize that Marth grabs are busted in general ESPECIALLY at lower percents.


Oh and about side B....

Yeah I mostly meant this on shield or hitting an airborne opponent because grounded opponents I don't like using side B on them very much unless their percent is quite high and it can lead to a kill move haha. Marth is so funny when he puts people in shield because he has some amazing pressure but none of it is like the silly Fox and Falco button-mashing stuff...it's more mini-zoning and letting them understand they can be death grabbed or counterattacked if they get too afraid of the sword/anything to move. It's pretty poetic and other flowery words because I love Marth lol.
 

oukd

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pp, are you trying to say that the more you rely on grab, the more the opponent expects and watches for the grab (and in consequence watches less for attacks) and vice versa? like, the more you open with attacks the more opportunities you can get to grab later wow i got extremely ninja'd nvm

on the subject of side b...i never use it unless for offstage purposes
or random pivot 1-hit taps because theyre funny
 

Xyzz

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I've noticed that sometimes when I try to go for a grab, throw there's a bit of lag. I notice top level Marths can grab and then throw the opponent immediately afterwards. Is this a side-effect of not JCing properly? Im trying to eliminate that pause so my play is more fluid. How do I correct this error?

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.
If you completely mess up the JC and get a running grab you'll have grabbed the opponent on frame 10 or sth instead of 7. Or if you lose frames to jumpsquat instead of JCing on the first frame of it, you'll hold him that much later as well. Both of these can indeed mess up your timing.
Well, to correct those do practice to get the JCs right every time. Or if you're feeling lazy you could also practice to not throw him instantly but rather 3 frames later than you could. That'd be barely noticable and would have the game register the throw input every time ;)
I'd recommend learning to waste no frames on jumpsquat though, because the frames you lose there might as well be the ones your opponent can use to evade your grab in the first place.
 

MookieRah

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@PP
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I think Umbreon meant that if you have a guaranteed grab, you shouldn't sacrifice it for a side B combo. Not so much that you should overly emphasize just grabs.

I do think all this discussion on optimal play is getting muddy, and depending on how you view it, then it can quickly become a semantic argument.
I'm always not really sure how you factor in neutral to your points you give other people, and I tend to focus more on neutral and playing the player in my discussions while you want to teach the hard fundamentals of characters people don't often get.
This. Mow is more focussed on getting forum members to work on fundamentals and optimal play and not on vague concepts such as mindgames and the like. I do think the idea of only partaking in a mix-up if you have to is a good thing, especially if there is an option to make it so. This is a big departure in the older way of thinking, in which mind games were the king and the most important thing ever. Obviously both are, you need to play the matchup, and the player.

Notes on Ken's Usage of Dancing Blade from Scar Exhibition Set:
Ken actually went for side B grab attempts. Every time I saw him do this so far it has been from a max range side B.

If you notice, Ken oftentimes will only do a full dancing blade when his spacing is such that his opponent is on top of him. He uses the side B to put pressure on his opponents shield, and it moves him forward enough to actually cross up his opponent. I'm not sure, but I think if his opponent tries to react to this after the third hit (where the step forward takes place) I think 4th hit up would still hit them. On BF, he does this in the center of the stage and after 4th hit up Scar attempts to attack him but he up B's out of it, hitting Scar and allowing Ken to land out of his reach on the top platform.
 
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kevin i think you know my stance on conditioning in smash well enough by now.

edit: i wish my article was required reading for this thread.
 

MookieRah

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kevin i think you know my stance on conditioning in smash well enough by now.
I'm going to assume you are against conditioning then? I stand behind your mindset of being optimal in any given moment, but at the end of the day you are playing against other human beings. Manipulating them in clever ways, conditioning them for certain setups... that stuff really works and is a fairly low risk for quite a good reward. Not to mention that conditioning is a staple in several other competitive e-sports. I'm also pretty certain it exists in competitive martial arts and sports where applicable.
 

CyberZixx

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I`m with MookieRah here. To do the optimal stuff is smart, but every now and again, mix it up so they know you are willing to do something else and get them second guessing what they know of your play. Now, i`m not advocating mix up with something random and dumb, just a smart yet lesser option.
Edit: If they have not caught onto what you are doing, no reason to mix it up. Just it`s smart they are figuring out how to stop your stuff.
 

ShroudedOne

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If they've caught on to what you're doing, but it's optimal, then does it matter if they know or not? They shouldn't be able to do anything about it either way.

That's a bit vague but I can't think of an example. Maybe just things like following your optimal combo string, as opposed to going for a hit that "might" kill them if they aren't expecting it/are unprepared for it, even if it also combos.
 

CyberZixx

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Optimal does not mean un-exploitable. But I suppose it depends on the situation. Ideally what you are doing is just so good, they can`t react to it in a meaningful way.
 

Tee ay eye

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Tai is so cool it causes me physical pain

That Yoshi's story recovery stuff is out of this world, definitely going to work on plagiarizing that.

How are you so consistent with walljumptech bair? Did you actively train it against motion sensor bombs (or some other training method), or did you just work on it in matches?

edit: That set against PPU was absolutely insane
i just worked on walltech bair in matches

practicing techs with motion sensor bombs doesn't work well with marth because his sword makes the bombs go off prematurely
 
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andrew

you my nigga

clearly you should test this with tony, i think he'd be interested as well
 
D

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test what?
the bair wall jump tech and subsequent movement angles. i mean, i know i've never done that and i recall marth's wall jump tech kinda sucking.

edit: ok maybe "test" isn't the right word. i can english good.
 

Devil Ray

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question on low percent gimps:

i've always loved gimping spacies or characters in general through cheap kills, but nowadays i find it really hard to gimp characters at low percent with back throw. Would love a m2k answer/perspective on this, but can't the spacies just air-dodge like crazy and hope to get on a platform even if you b-throw them continuously? At high percents, they go farther and if they DI in, you can tilt but i find people airdodging back onto the stage works really well. any ways to adjust to that?
 

clowsui

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druggedfox stop playing akuma that character is ****ing wack dawg. ur magnus looked nice at FR but i wish you had tighter confirms

tai whenever you read this you need to improve your reaction to shield + adjustment time. you got punished for 1000000000 fairs on shield because pewpewu knew you wouldn't grab EVER so he could just safely block no fear. you would pin him then he would just block poorly spaced aerials and shield grab. also stop going for high damage punish 24/7 and go for punishes that don't let him play
 

Bones0

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You should be dthrowing, not bthrowing, if you are trying to gimp them. If you dtilt and they airdodge, you still have plenty of time to DD regrab. Just pay close attention to which side of you they land on, since the only way to really avoid the grab is for them to fake you out. They might also try to airdodge onto the platform, but the only way they can land on it is to DJ above the ledge, so your dtilt should have hit them.
 
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