Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Devil Ray]

I don't think there's any guaranteed way to convert a backthrow on a low percent spacie into a sure kill. It's basically some RPS thingy. If you know they're going to airdodge and don't feel like you can get them before, you can wait that out and put them back offstage.
E.g. here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wE0q5Npa44&feature=player_detailpage#t=76s

i feel like the moment the spacey uses a double jump WITHOUT an air dodge it's over. jab, tilt, it's just death for the spacey. if i was spacey, i'd just air dodge and hope i don't get grabbed again.

@bones: my larger point is, marth seems to be great at getting gimps at low %. but since the spacey wouldn't go that far from a b-throw or a d-throw, it seems entirely possible to get back. at least a 1 out 3 situation. but air dodge mixups seem to be really useful for the spacey IMO. and using the shine as a stall or something makes it even harder.

 

[Bones0]

i feel like the moment the spacey uses a double jump WITHOUT an air dodge it's over. jab, tilt, it's just death for the spacey. if i was spacey, i'd just air dodge and hope i don't get grabbed again.

@bones: my larger point is, marth seems to be great at getting gimps at low %. but since the spacey wouldn't go that far from a b-throw or a d-throw, it seems entirely possible to get back. at least a 1 out 3 situation. but air dodge mixups seem to be really useful for the spacey IMO. and using the shine as a stall or something makes it even harder.

I agree airdodge mixups are good to use as a spacie, but only because all of the alternatives are so awful. Marth will get a regrab if he's gimping properly, so the spacie will only take <10%, and he can attempt to fake out the Marth 2-3 times without any real repercussions. Still, you don't want to just get regrabbed over and over, so you'll usually go for a DJ back side-B or something else. I usually prefer to try to avoid the dtilt with a shine stall mixup and just DJ dair back on. It certainly is more threatening than the airdodge, and the success rate isn't that much lower. It definitely isn't a 1 in 3 chance of them getting back though. Marth can cover a ridiculous number of options as long as you are reacting to their DI and DJ properly.

 

[Devil Ray]

yea that's why i think m2k's gimps are deceptive actually. cuz after a few regrabs and dtilts, it racks up like 30-50% damage. so the spacey would keep on going farther and farther, forcing them to firefox. at that point, it's more in marth's favor to get an easy edgeguard.

@bones: why don't you think it's a one in three chance?

 

[t-iceman]

yea that's why i think m2k's gimps are deceptive actually. cuz after a few regrabs and dtilts, it racks up like 30-50% damage. so the spacey would keep on going farther and farther, forcing them to firefox. at that point, it's more in marth's favor to get an easy edgeguard.

@bones: why don't you think it's a one in three chance?

it's not a one in 3 chance because fox has many different options to get back not all of which can be covered. Let's say you get a down throw on fox at zero sending him off stage, you have several good options that you can use that will cover certain recoveries but you will not cover every single option. if you stay on stage and try to predict an airdodge or a missed jump you will not be able to cover fox if he simply sweetspots his jump. another solid option is wavedash back and grab the ledge which takes away the ability to sweetspot and grab the ledge but leaves you more succeptible to airdodge recoveries as well as getting messed up by shine stall dair. If you know that your opponent is going to try to jump sweet spot the ledge you can try to wavedash off fair and the fair will usually reverse and if they are at low percent it will put them in a terrible position. If you think that your opponent is going to throw out a move counter almost guarantees you a kill but it is very punishable if you don't get it. Anyway i could talk more about this but talking about this game doesnt really do it justice you have to play and play until you really understand some of this. Maybe im just lucky that i get to get ***** by otto all the time.

 

[Deleted member]

lol guru chi, looking like a pro.

i forgot how good jman was when he was playing a lot. beautiful fox play.

 

[Bones0]

yea that's why i think m2k's gimps are deceptive actually. cuz after a few regrabs and dtilts, it racks up like 30-50% damage. so the spacey would keep on going farther and farther, forcing them to firefox. at that point, it's more in marth's favor to get an easy edgeguard.

@bones: why don't you think it's a one in three chance?

it's not a one in 3 chance because fox has many different options to get back not all of which can be covered. Let's say you get a down throw on fox at zero sending him off stage, you have several good options that you can use that will cover certain recoveries but you will not cover every single option. if you stay on stage and try to predict an airdodge or a missed jump you will not be able to cover fox if he simply sweetspots his jump. another solid option is wavedash back and grab the ledge which takes away the ability to sweetspot and grab the ledge but leaves you more succeptible to airdodge recoveries as well as getting messed up by shine stall dair. If you know that your opponent is going to try to jump sweet spot the ledge you can try to wavedash off fair and the fair will usually reverse and if they are at low percent it will put them in a terrible position. If you think that your opponent is going to throw out a move counter almost guarantees you a kill but it is very punishable if you don't get it. Anyway i could talk more about this but talking about this game doesnt really do it justice you have to play and play until you really understand some of this. Maybe im just lucky that i get to get ***** by otto all the time.

I think it's more like a 1 in 10 chance of them not getting gimped, actually. I'm probably a little biased because I play Falco. Fox tends to be able to get back a lot more often, honestly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

it's still worth pointing out max!

 

[Tee ay eye]

druggedfox stop playing akuma that character is ****ing wack dawg. ur magnus looked nice at FR but i wish you had tighter confirms

tai whenever you read this you need to improve your reaction to shield + adjustment time. you got punished for 1000000000 fairs on shield because pewpewu knew you wouldn't grab EVER so he could just safely block no fear. you would pin him then he would just block poorly spaced aerials and shield grab. also stop going for high damage punish 24/7 and go for punishes that don't let him play

do you mind elaborating (the whole thing, but especially the "don't let him play" part)

i know what you mean, and i don't disagree with you, but i'd love a more in-depth answer

i want to be able to play a more tight and efficient game, and i sorta get the idea behind it, but i have a LOT of trouble trying to do it in practice, so i'd like to read specific cases to reinforce the lesson as much as possible.

 

[AustinRC]

Have any Marth players played againts people whom are proficient in shield dropping off platforms? People in the area are beginning to pick it up and are very good at using it. I'm thinking while on the ground just side b'ing to prevent them from getting down when they try and drop through but idk. There is obviously just dash dance and wait but I'd like to have just a little more options in that situation.

 

[OliClutch117]

What exactly is Shield dropping and how does it work. I'm not sure if anyone in my area uses it or not.

 

[AustinRC]

Shield dropping is a technique where you fall of the platform out of your shield. I believe it's done by pressing slightly left or right and then down. There is a certain angle on the joy stick that counts for two directions "I believe so don't quote me" so you'll drop almost immediately.

 

[t-iceman]

Have any Marth players played againts people whom are proficient in shield dropping off platforms? People in the area are beginning to pick it up and are very good at using it. I'm thinking while on the ground just side b'ing to prevent them from getting down when they try and drop through but idk. There is obviously just dash dance and wait but I'd like to have just a little more options in that situation.

Yes eggz uses shield dropping more than anyone else i've seen and honestly its just about anticipating when they are going to fall off and punishing with an up air or other move that will lead into follow ups. Honestly its not that strong vs marth because of the risk reward for the person staying on the platform is usually much greater than the risk of you eating a bair vs fox/falco for instance. If you can read their movement and not get baited into doing a wiffed up tilt or some other easily punishable move you should be ok. Depending on the stage shffling up airs is pretty safe against them staying on platforms but the real key to dealing with it is finding their movement patterns and punishing accordingly.

 

[Deleted member]

I never said that moves and grabs were necessarily interchangeable, but they both need solid representation in Marth's game in order to see success. Consider a Falco jumping at Marth with Nair but gets Fair'd out of his move(Marth could not pivot grab either due to being boxed in on the edge or wanted to counter the laser if Falco did either option late aka he was primed to Fair and figured the Falco would attack.) The next time Falco has Marth pinned at the edge, he may hesitate. This gives Marth all the opening he needs to move in and grab Falco or take stage that eventually leads to a grab. The hit did not LEAD to a grab per se, but it allows for conditioning to open up grab possibilities down the road. If someone were only looking for grabs then they would feel much more suffocated in the aforementioned situation(which is relatively common in that matchup imo.)

Additionally, when characters are at higher percents, any move that connects really will force the opponent into a bad position(grounded, airborne, offstage) just like a grab would....for roughly similar percent. Since high percents occur pretty frequently(as they should), this does not seem to be much of an exception.

But, more importantly than all of this, is the fact that being overly focused on grabs is a problem. You make yourself, as a player, predictable for it. Now, I think you mention something related to neutral in your first paragraph to address this concern, but I'm not sure.

Either way, if we're saying roughly the same thing, which is that grabs are amazing but moves are not THAT much worse than them and even sometimes "better" because of conditioning or other matchup-specific variables, then this was just a fun writing exercise. I'm always not really sure how you factor in neutral to your points you give other people, and I tend to focus more on neutral and playing the player in my discussions while you want to teach the hard fundamentals of characters people don't often get. I think both of our perspectives are pretty important, and ultimately I recognize that Marth grabs are busted in general ESPECIALLY at lower percents.

We're not talking about grabs and hits being interchangeable. I was under the impression that you said that they lend to each other. They do, but the relationship is coincidental and indirect. You said that "hitting with a move makes grabs more likely, and vice versa", and this is true for but not for the reason that you're projecting. For a comparison, consider ice cream consumption and violence. I can tell you that ice cream consumption makes violence more likely, and vice versa, and you could investigate that claim and find it to be true. But they are not related, both of those occurrences are based on seasonal fluctuations, a third variable that was not mentioned in the initial statement. In my viewpoint, the chances of hitting with either a move or a grab are contingent on positioning, at least much more so that any other factor. At that point, the move you choose to use is on you, but you should still use your superior positional advantage to maximize your output at the point of the conversion regardless of what it is. This is not to provide you with something to debate, and I don't like using what is effectively a straw-man argument to do so. It is simply an easy method for me to verbalize the concept to you. It is something to consider.

Being overly-focused on always choosing your best option is not problematic. It's actually desirable. Choosing grab vs attack does not matter, you simply choose whatever is best for the situation. For Marth, a lot of the time that means grabbing, but not always, but that's not important. The important part is choosing the superior option over the inferior one. I dislike your philosophy on conditioning and playing to the player because those are fallible strategies that are dependent upon your opponent to be successful. When you say that you're conditioning your opponent or trying to make them hesitate, what you're actually saying is "I'm going to encourage my opponent to play poorly." And often, your opponent will play poorly and this will be a successful way to gain margin in the match. Playing to the player is the same, where you form an expectation on how your opponent will behave when that is not necessarily the case. However, you have no reason to expect your opponent to play poorly in every situation. You are effectively giving your opponent the option to not play to your expectations, and this is damaging to you because it gives your opponent a way to gain margin back on you.

The good news is, you can simply just choose not to do this, effectively negating that margin that the opponent can favorably interact with you when your expectations are defied. By playing to the hard fundamentals of the game, your opponent is no longer handed a way to gain margin on you in those interactions if you're wrong say 10% of the time. Let's go one step further and say you're willing to risk that margin to gain margin on your opponent though. Let's say that for every 10% you're wrong and get punished, you are right 80% of the time and punish them back harder, and the other 10% of the time nothing happens. The numbers don't really matter, only the idea matters. By going into a situation with risk willingly, you're essentially saying that you expect to come out advantageous more often than you plan to come out disadvantageous, i.e. you already consider yourself better than the opponent. You would certainly not want to engage in this risky behavior willingly against a player that you consider your equal or better than you. If your strategy is only fruitful against players you should already be beating, why use it? You can simply beat them normally without the risk. Why would you ever play to the player or try to condition a player that is your equal or better than you knowing that you will only go even at best and can potentially do much worse? This is not a good strategy to win against any caliber of player.

In the same way, there is nothing wrong with predictability. When you are predictable, you are accepting that you will play to your best option every time to maximize your win rate. You may even be giving your opponent some margin with which to beat you, but it is still less than the margin you would be losing to your opponent by playing to the player, assuming that you are actually playing optimally. So back to my example, if you are predictable and get exploited for it 5% of the time, you are still a net 5% gain by choosing it over playing to the player. Now my example looks rigged, right? What happens if predictability gets you exploited 15% of the time and you are at a net loss for 5%? Then you stop and you re-evaluate your game decisions. There should not be a point in your game play when your unreliable strategies are more strategically sound than strategies that are hard-bound to the operations of the game itself, in the long run.

We can keep going on this but I think it's better if I stop here. I decided to sit on your post for a few days to consider it before replying. If you want to pursue this topic further in public or in private, that's fine. If not, that's fine too.

 

[Bones0]

Have any Marth players played againts people whom are proficient in shield dropping off platforms? People in the area are beginning to pick it up and are very good at using it. I'm thinking while on the ground just side b'ing to prevent them from getting down when they try and drop through but idk. There is obviously just dash dance and wait but I'd like to have just a little more options in that situation.

Do a SH late uair, and space it so you can DD grab them. Nairing is also good as they will often shield drop into the second hit.

 

[clowsui]

do you mind elaborating (the whole thing, but especially the "don't let him play" part)

i know what you mean, and i don't disagree with you, but i'd love a more in-depth answer

i want to be able to play a more tight and efficient game, and i sorta get the idea behind it, but i have a LOT of trouble trying to do it in practice, so i'd like to read specific cases to reinforce the lesson as much as possible.

don't let him play.

put him in situations where he only gets to decide between "bad" and "worse" defensive options.

I know in my original post I had talked about inefficient punishes but I don't want to take the time to look for examples + I think those situations were overall too specific/won't lead to too much improvement. instead I want to focus on situations where you had the opportunity to punish and you didn't: where you didn't convert.

why is this important? quite frankly from the beginning i thought you were going to lose right out on all levels. as the set progressed i came to realize that you weren't going to lose in terms of opportunities but in terms of conversions. PPU is actually kinda bad at the ditto based on this video (dunno how much he was ****ing around against you but it would've been a **** move if he did LMAO), but what makes him a high level Marth player and what puts you at the precipice is his greater ability to react to and maximize advantageous situations.

anyways, more to the specifics.

http://youtu.be/ZSSxy7W0jkA

8:34ish he's up there, clearly DI'ing out. the hitstun at this percentage is long enough such that his subsequent position should be easy to account for: he's either going to have to double jump, land from an awkward angle onto the platform + do nothing, or drift back to the edge. you can react to all of those options if you just land from the fair and walk forward a little bit, but instead you pre-emptively FJ forward and he gets away for free. not only that, but he DOUBLE JUMPED to get out of it. you are good enough to know what happens when you have the opportunity to punish a double jump. why did you let him play? he should have died.

look at the ledge situation immediately following. PPU does not let you play. he delays fairs and is ready to dtilt you from far far away, abusing his positional advantage from the slope because he knows you have no options. you escape because he gets greedy and also forgets you are a Randall Wizard (tm).

another GREAT example of your poor efficiency is almost immediately following. at 9:07 you're coming down from the platform. he dashes away as a response (wow kevin toy please don't do that LOL you gave up stage). this is great for you. you can stand there and PPU is immediately ****ting his pants because he does not get to play. he either jumps or shields, both of which are terrible because at that point he is pinned with his back to the ledge. instead, you dash into him, and once you noticed that he has picked shield, you realize you messed up.

from there, rather than continuing the dash through him and initiating a DD (which would give you pressure to disguise the error you made), you do the NEXT worst thing: you jump back* and dash forward again, initiating a short DD that does not allow you to cover the stupid thing that PPU does in response. if you had just done a long DD from the jump back, you could have easily reacted to the stupid that he did in response to your stpuid.

there's a few more examples of these throughout the set but I think I want to give you the ability to look on your own and ask questions about it. the key though, at your level of play, is not only to ask "what could I have done better in that specific moment", but also to be sure of when you can reasonably say "I should have known that it did not need to get that far". for example, dashing into him with your invincibility at 9:07ish. yes, i said that you could initiate a DD after realizing you messed up. but you could also just not let it get that far in the first place. you could have avoided messing up from the very beginning, thereby maximizing your reward. too often mid-high level players look too closely to options in specific scenarios, without questioning whether or not the specific scenario emerged as a deficiency in situational awareness.

so, to reiterate: stop letting him play. grab does not let him play. positional death traps do not let him play. good macro does not let the opponent play. reliance on the efficient option does not let the opponent play. greater situational awareness leads to better conversions, which leads to more wins, and more learning in important areas.

(if you wanted me to talk about punishes find me on a different day I have diff EQ hw and I hate watching people do unnecessary dairs when I'm in a bad mood AKA now)

*what might even be worse about this situation is that you're still invincible and you still choose to not aerial. i say might even be, however, because I like grab over hit here. put him on the ledge with fthrow/dthrow = he doesn't get to play, hit him at mid percent and fumble w positional advantage like you did through much of this set = he gets to play

 

[Bones0]

There should not be a point in your game play when your unreliable strategies are more strategically sound than strategies that are hard-bound to the operations of the game itself, in the long run.

This claim seems to be the focal point of the whole disagreement. You seem to be assuming that reliable strategies are always better when that's clearly not always the case. If your opponent is up 3 stocks, I think most people would accept that you can't just make the right decisions and expect to win in that situation. You have to take weird risks and go for unorthodox gimps because the chance of your reliable strategy taking all 4 of their stocks in a row is less than the chance of you catching them off guard for 1 or 2 stocks and outplaying them with reliable strategies for the rest of the stocks. If the most reliable strategies aren't necessarily the best choice when you're in a deficit, what's stopping them from being suboptimal to less reliable play in any other situation?

 

[Deleted member]

andrew your set with ppu is godlike.

i think it has a lot more to do with ppu being "bad at the ditto" though.

 

[clowsui]

@bones me and max are tired so the collective response from us is

"if you're a bad player, and a lot of your gameplay is based on mixup, then everything is risky, and taking different risks just makes you a different kind of bad player."

alternatively: If you made reliable decisions, you wouldn't be down three stocks in the first place. More risky strategies don't bring you back into the game.

 

[t-iceman]

andrew your set with ppu is godlike.

i think it has a lot more to do with ppu being "bad at the ditto" though.

pretty sure ppu has beaten jason in dittos LOL

 

[Deleted member]

i mean, i have too lol.

much chips and salsa was had in celebration.

 

[t-iceman]

I think it's more like a 1 in 10 chance of them not getting gimped, actually. I'm probably a little biased because I play Falco. Fox tends to be able to get back a lot more often, honestly.

even falco has solid options it is not 1 in 10 lol. there is enough mixups that you are not going to die 9 out of 10 times from going off stage with a jump. try shinestalling its super good

 

[BTmoney]

More falcos should shorten their illusion imo, really good option and it just happens to work well in a position where you can still choose other options

 

[Druggedfox]

@austinrc

As much as I hate marth's nair, it's actually really good at punishin shield drops.

The reason for this being that when people shield drop, they buffer it during the shieldstun of whatever move you're doing; because your nair isn't a "blockstring" and the first hit has such little blockstun, they'll end up buffering a shield drop directly into the second hit of the nair.

There are lots of other ways but that's a more specific one I doubt anyone will bring up *except bones because its ****ing bones* /edit

@Clowsui

Tatsu is godlike, I played like **** at FR though I appreciate that you liked anything you saw, everyone sucks at marvel

 

[clowsui]

I agree but ChrisG is smart as ****. That being said it's too bad flocker does not know anything about resource management, he had the first set won on more than a few counts lmao but then he just blew his meter on useless garbage.

Also tatsu is a good assist lol but I dunno. I mean it's w/e cuz the other good lockdown assists don't necessarily fit well w magneto/wesker

 

[Bones0]

even falco has solid options it is not 1 in 10 lol. there is enough mixups that you are not going to die 9 out of 10 times from going off stage with a jump. try shinestalling its super good

I do shine stall. It doesn't really do anything if they react to your DJ instead of just assuming you will DJ right away. I've spent so much time playing vs. Marth and getting dthrown off stage that I know every mixup in the book. Marth can cover almost all of them as long as he doesn't mess up.

 

[Druggedfox]

If theres even a single option that isnt possible to cover while accounting for other options then cant you always force a 50/50? Thats 5 out of 10 =P

Im talking about general situations moreso than that specific one, though this still applies

 

[MT_]

People suggesting nair against shield drop: the person in question has hit me out of my nair with a shield drop bair after the first hit and before the second hit lol. But that was just friendlies; he's not dumb and is way more likely to just wait until after the second hit of nair.

Austin my suggestion is to just space so that you aren't directly below him. Obviously you won't be able to cover as much but shield dropping can't just be overlooked and it has to be respected as a very real option in the new meta game. But as long as it isn't Dreamland, you should still have a reasonable advantage with him on the platform while you are spaced away. I think anyway.

Now when he learns to shield drop laser, we're all ****ed.

 

[MT_]

Also, the most common method for shield dropping involved some form of shield angling prior to the actual drop. This leaves vulnerability in some part of their shield and you can look for that and aim for a shield poke, especially if they are waiting for you to hit their shield as an action to react to for the shield drop.

 

[Bones0]

If theres even a single option that isnt possible to cover while accounting for other options then cant you always force a 50/50? Thats 5 out of 10 =P

Im talking about general situations moreso than that specific one, though this still applies

If there is 1 option that isn't possible for them to recover, but there are 9 possible options they are able to cover, then that's a 1 in 10. If any action from the Marth covered either 9 options or 1 option, then that would be a 50-50, but that's not really how covering recovery options works. There's different combinations of coverage the player uses because they cover different options at different times. So Marth could dthrow, immediately turn around and dtilt, then jab a Phantasm, or he could dthrow, immediately turn around and dtilt, then drop down and hit them out of up-B. So it's more like it's a bunch of 50-50 situations, but if you are wrong for even one of them, you will get gimped. So as the edgeguard progresses, your odds of making it back decrease as you try to avoid their coverage. So if Marth does 3 actions to cover your options throughout a gimp, all with a 50-50 or 1/2 chance of killing you, by the time the edgeguard is over you're looking at 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/8 survival rate. That's how I view it anyway. *shrug*

 

[Deleted member]

So if Marth does 3 actions to cover your options throughout a gimp, all with a 50-50 or 1/2 chance of killing you, by the time the edgeguard is over you're looking at 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/8 survival rate. That's how I view it anyway. *shrug*

Even with an excellent frame trap, you're still only doing 1 action at a time. If your opponent does nothing about your play, then yes you're right. Most opponents won't flop around while you kill them, and some may even try to stop you. For every 50/50 you give your opponent, you have a 50% chance to lose your advantage, either by resetting to neutral or being put into a disadvantageous position yourself. If you give your opponent 3 of them, you're looking at failing 7/8ths of the time. You can simply not do this and choose strategies that always work because those strategies are bound by the mechanics of the game.

i might review tai vs ppu later since the set reinforces all of the theory so well both ways.

 

[Bones0]

Even with an excellent frame trap, you're still only doing 1 action at a time. If your opponent does nothing about your play, then yes you're right. Most opponents won't flop around while you kill them, and some may even try to stop you. For every 50/50 you give your opponent, you have a 50% chance to lose your advantage, either by resetting to neutral or being put into a disadvantageous position yourself. If you give your opponent 3 of them, you're looking at failing 7/8ths of the time. You can simply not do this and choose strategies that always work because those strategies are bound by the mechanics of the game.

i might review tai vs ppu later since the set reinforces all of the theory so well both ways.

Idk if you knew, but I was speaking specifically about an off-stage Falco. If we are talking about neutral, then sure, engaging in a 50-50 multiple times just means you have a bunch of opportunities to lose any advantage you might have. When we're talking about gimps however, Marth can cover an option without giving up any immediate advantages. For instance, he can dthrow Falco off and simply wait to DD grab a DJ dair onto the stage. If Marth is wrong about Falco doing this, he can still react to plenty of other options. Of course you don't WANT to guess wrong because you give up an opportunity to solidify the gimp, but there are very few ways a Falco that's been thrown off can capitalize on 50-50 coverage. The 50-50 is usually a 50% chance you die, or a 50% chance you get to advance to the next 50-50 of the edgeguard.

 

[MookieRah]

I think the main flaw in the argument of perfect play is that it's impossible. Another caveat is that you can only cover so many options with any particular thing, while Max claims smash isn't a mixup game, I beg to differ. There are several situations where there are multiple routes players can go in a rock/paper/scissors fashion, it's just that they are several small decisions that happen all the time. The optimal strategy merely covers more of the opponents options, but not all of them. If your opponent catches on to the fact that you are always using the "optimal" move and is knowledgeable enough in the matchup, he can simply use a different alternative that it doesn't cover.

Also, regardless of whether or not you try to play optimal, you still have to read them, you still have to adjust. This is where conditioning and other things come into play. You still have to play the player even if you are playing the matchup. I think one should strive to play optimally as much as possible, to play it safe and not take unnecessary risks and to be patient, but playing like a level 10 comp isn't the way.

 

[t-iceman]

Idk if you knew, but I was speaking specifically about an off-stage Falco. If we are talking about neutral, then sure, engaging in a 50-50 multiple times just means you have a bunch of opportunities to lose any advantage you might have. When we're talking about gimps however, Marth can cover an option without giving up any immediate advantages. For instance, he can dthrow Falco off and simply wait to DD grab a DJ dair onto the stage. If Marth is wrong about Falco doing this, he can still react to plenty of other options. Of course you don't WANT to guess wrong because you give up an opportunity to solidify the gimp, but there are very few ways a Falco that's been thrown off can capitalize on 50-50 coverage. The 50-50 is usually a 50% chance you die, or a 50% chance you get to advance to the next 50-50 of the edgeguard.

alright let me rephrase my statement, what do you think the safest/best option is for falco in this situation? I d-throw you off the stage at zero, what do you do without any knowledge of my play style

 

[Bones0]

alright let me rephrase my statement, what do you think the safest/best option is for falco in this situation? I d-throw you off the stage at zero, what do you do without any knowledge of my play style

It depends on what stage it is and where I'm getting dthrown from. Just speaking generally, I'd try to DI to slide onto the ledge. Otherwise, I'd DI up and away so I don't get immediately hit by a dtilt or fsmash, then from there it depends on what you do. I'd almost surely stick with Phantasm since I'm at 0%, and Firebird is an unnecessary risk (unless you, for some reason, play super deep into the stage and I have time to just Firebird to the ledge). I actually just made a huge post about avoiding gimps in the Falco Discussion Thread if you just want to look at that. I break down each part of Falco's recovery, so you should be able to look at that and imagine how it'd interact with Marth's edgeguarding.

 

[t-iceman]

It depends on what stage it is and where I'm getting dthrown from. Just speaking generally, I'd try to DI to slide onto the ledge. Otherwise, I'd DI up and away so I don't get immediately hit by a dtilt or fsmash, then from there it depends on what you do. I'd almost surely stick with Phantasm since I'm at 0%, and Firebird is an unnecessary risk (unless you, for some reason, play super deep into the stage and I have time to just Firebird to the ledge). I actually just made a huge post about avoiding gimps in the Falco Discussion Thread if you just want to look at that. I break down each part of Falco's recovery, so you should be able to look at that and imagine how it'd interact with Marth's edgeguarding.

idk why you wouldnt just sweetspot your jump, thats the easiest way to recover at zero imo as long as you are sure that marth is going to stay on the stage. If hes going off stage just airdodge past and you are k. phantasm at marths head level is a solid option as well but if marth is crouching thats a free regrab so i dont think its that great

 

[Tee ay eye]

thank you, chi <3

i'll try to spend a bunch of time reviewing all my KoC2 games sometime in the next week or two, but you helped point me in the right direction

and thanks for the flattering words, max

i thought my movement wasn't bad this set despite me doing a bunch of other things horribly wrong lol

i'd personally find it cool if you reviewed me vs ppu, but i doubt that will have much bearing on whether or not you actually do it

 

[Bones0]

idk why you wouldnt just sweetspot your jump, thats the easiest way to recover at zero imo as long as you are sure that marth is going to stay on the stage. If hes going off stage just airdodge past and you are k. phantasm at marths head level is a solid option as well but if marth is crouching thats a free regrab so i dont think its that great

Falco can't sweetspot the ledge as well other characters like Marth and Falcon. You'll just get dtilted if you try to DJ to the ledge. If they are too far back I may go for the DJ into Firebird ledge grab because it grabs the ledge from further away, but even that's unnecessarily risky when you're only at 0%.

 

[MT_]

Falco can't sweetspot the ledge as well other characters like Marth and Falcon. You'll just get dtilted if you try to DJ to the ledge. If they are too far back I may go for the DJ into Firebird ledge grab because it grabs the ledge from further away, but even that's unnecessarily risky when you're only at 0%.

Falco DJ sweetspotting the ledge against Marth's dtilt while (clearly) more difficult than other characters is definitely possible and if you become proficient at it then your chances of recovering against Marth's dthrow off the stage will go up dramatically. You'll have to start working from the ledge from there but Falco has pretty solid options after gaining ledge invincibility vs Marth than most other characters.

I'd argue that Falco DJ sweetspotting the ledge is as necessary a skill for Falco as chaingrabbing is for Marth.

 

[Bones0]

Falco DJ sweetspotting the ledge against Marth's dtilt while (clearly) more difficult than other characters is definitely possible and if you become proficient at it then your chances of recovering against Marth's dthrow off the stage will go up dramatically. You'll have to start working from the ledge from there but Falco has pretty solid options after gaining ledge invincibility vs Marth than most other characters.

I'd argue that Falco DJ sweetspotting the ledge is as necessary a skill for Falco as chaingrabbing is for Marth.

I've tried it a million times. It doesn't work.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the main flaw in the argument of perfect play is that it's impossible. Another caveat is that you can only cover so many options with any particular thing, while Max claims smash isn't a mixup game, I beg to differ. There are several situations where there are multiple routes players can go in a rock/paper/scissors fashion, it's just that they are several small decisions that happen all the time. The optimal strategy merely covers more of the opponents options, but not all of them. If your opponent catches on to the fact that you are always using the "optimal" move and is knowledgeable enough in the matchup, he can simply use a different alternative that it doesn't cover.

Also, regardless of whether or not you try to play optimal, you still have to read them, you still have to adjust. This is where conditioning and other things come into play. You still have to play the player even if you are playing the matchup. I think one should strive to play optimally as much as possible, to play it safe and not take unnecessary risks and to be patient, but playing like a level 10 comp isn't the way.

You're on the right idea, but you're taking it too direct. Perfect play is not possible, and it's true that you can only cover so many options. Smash definitely is a game with mix-ups. That said, you want to minimize your mix-ups whenever possible in favor of strategies that are guaranteed to work. And whenever the opponent presents you a chance to play rock/paper/scissors, I'm saying that you should willingly choose to not play, but instead to reset to neutral and to try to vie for a positional advantage and to try again. The optimal strategy is NOT the one that covers the most options, but rather the one that gives you the most favorable weighted exchanges. Sometimes, that means you forego covering options, which is something that you have to calculate with your wonderful human brain. And you do have to adjust, but for the most part you do NOT have to read your opponent because of the positional nature of competitive gaming. In every competitive activity I've been able to think of there are positioning elements, to the point where I could say that "competitive games" are actually "positioning games". You should be actively adjusting as much as possible at all times, even if you're winning or mid-combo to ensure that you keep your positional advantage. If your opponent does not have effective positioning and you can leverage your opponent from gaining effective positioning, your opponent will not have the adequate methods to meaningfully threaten you and playing to the player strategies are no longer needed.

The idea is not to play perfect, the idea is to play as optimally as possible, and I'm telling you how to do it in a broad way so that you can learn how to extrapolate that information for your own character. For marth, I've been a little bit more specific. Even if you become predictable and your opponent exploits it, you can bask in the knowledge that your play is still going to yield a higher win ratio against a blind opponent than seeking an alternative will. This optimal play optimizes your win rate in the long term and maximizes your rate of learning.

edit: andrew, you certainly made some mistakes. they don't matter. when you were playing correctly during that set, you were a MUCH better player than you were this time a year ago. thats whats matters.