Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Purpletuce]

Yes you can with marth's fair and falco's bai. any auto cancelable aerial. But nobody does it. Except No Ca$h.

Wow, this post is gold. Answering a question that was already answered, answering it very wrong, and the lack of proofreading. More embarrassing then watching your Shiek try to techchase with B-throw.

 

[Divinokage]

almost never, unless you know how to double stick DI

Seriously, first off Rocket, master DI with your joystick only. From that point, then we can move on with the c-stick.. basics are FAR more important than anything else, no need to over-complicate your techniques.

Even then, I personally do not use the C-stick to DI, the joystick is enough.. learn about the trajectory of moves and where you need to be in order to avoid the following hit.

 

[Construct]

Well, I've spent a lot of time chewing over and implementing the advice PP gave me on movement, and my improvement has been, well, pretty incredible (or at least it feels that way). I sort of had an epiphany when I really understood what PP meant when he said that there needs to be a purpose behind DDing, as opposed to just sort of spastic movement. I've gotten better at analyzing how people react to my movement, and I think I'm getting a better feeling for what Umbreon was always talking about with aggressive movement. I've also definitely been using longer dashes as well and unsurprisingly enough, they fill the roles you said they would perfectly; beforehand, I had sort of limited myself to choppy short dashes and WDs. I feel a lot more comfortable in my character's skin now. Yaaay PP! Sorry that this is sort of a pointless post, but I felt pretty happy with my progress. Going to a monthly this weekend, I'll try to get something recorded.

tl;dr You're a good person Dr. PeePee

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I've spent a lot of time chewing over and implementing the advice PP gave me on movement, and my improvement has been, well, pretty incredible (or at least it feels that way). I sort of had an epiphany when I really understood what PP meant when he said that there needs to be a purpose behind DDing, as opposed to just sort of spastic movement. I've gotten better at analyzing how people react to my movement, and I think I'm getting a better feeling for what Umbreon was always talking about with aggressive movement. I've also definitely been using longer dashes as well and unsurprisingly enough, they fill the roles you said they would perfectly; beforehand, I had sort of limited myself to choppy short dashes and WDs. I feel a lot more comfortable in my character's skin now. Yaaay PP! Sorry that this is sort of a pointless post, but I felt pretty happy with my progress. Going to a monthly this weekend, I'll try to get something recorded.

tl;dr You're a good person Dr. PeePee

Wow Kevin you're so cool. You Abe Lincoln looking mother ******.

Marth's "aggressive movement" is a detailed and complex way to say that you basically pin them down and **** them until they die. The more you see your play lining up to this finished product, the more likely you're doing it right since doing anything else invariably gets you killed.

Marth is much like Fox and unlike most of the rest of the cast in that the more you're playing optimally, the easier the character feels to play. Once you truly "get it" for either of those 2 characters, your decision-making gets so much easier because the one correct choice is just so obvious compared to the many other incorrect options. Characters like Falco or Peach never seem to get this way. Either that or I just don't personally understand them as well.

 

[Anand]

Wow, this post is gold. Answering a question that was already answered, answering it very wrong, and the lack of proofreading. More embarrassing then watching your Shiek try to techchase with B-throw.

Wow, this post is bronze. Lack of proofreading.

 

[Purpletuce]

Whoa, we just outright skipped silver. Way to take the fun out of everything.

So, Marth stuff. . .

Lately I've found myself into positions where I'm up against the ledge and don't have enough room to move around. I usually either go for a shield if I think they're going to opt for something reckless, like a F-smash. If I'm feeling confident about when they're coming in I'll run off stage and land back on with a Bair. The only other option I ever do it grab the ledge and play with the invincibility (which I think is counterproductive).

Anybody want to advise me toward better options?

 

[MookieRah]

I would say that survival DI and teching DI is pretty easy to practice and you can do it with motion sensor bombs or the Falcon Punch thing I put in my guide.

I was more referring to both survival DI and combo DI (not so much combo DI but it's applicable really), but not as in learning the optimal way to DI against specific things, but more for teaching myself to be observant enough as to be ready for an attack and to input a DI if I were to be hit. Honestly I think it'd be a bit pointless to begin trying to find all of the optimal ways of DI'ing if I'm not able to react consistently enough : P.

I was already doing the motion sensor bomb thing, but I might try the Falcon Punch method soon as it might be less annoying to train under.

Current training regiment:
Spacing, spacing, spacing: Focusing on making sure I land my attacks in a safe and effective manner. I thought I knew what spacing was back in the day, but the level people have now is so precise that it makes my brain spin. Working on making it so that I hardly ever overextend myself while I'm in the middle of aerials and the like.

Continue working on wave landing on platforms: Tthis is becoming second nature now, I'm really sad I didn't devote time to this back in the day when ThomasTipman was the only one doing it, considering how easy it is in the grand scheme of things. I'm trying, as much as one can, to implement this in how I go on the offense as well.

Shield Dropping: I never started working on this. Occasionally I would pop back in on the scene and attend a tournament or to, but this has always slipped me by. I'm working on it at the moment, seems nifty.

DI and Smash DI ledge teching: Self explanatory.

Is there anything else I need to be working towards? I'm somewhat ignorant about a lot of the higher end tech stuff these days.

I sort of had an epiphany when I really understood what PP meant when he said that there needs to be a purpose behind DDing, as opposed to just sort of spastic movement

I remembered when I figured this out way back in the day. It's really quite a surreal once you realize this, and then you actually know what people mean when they say "mind games." Not only that it's way more fun to force your opponent to play your game. Ironically I discovered the idea of manipulating opponents through movement while just trying to be as annoying as possible. The simple change in mindset took me out of my typical, almost robotic reactive way of playing, and got me to really focus on my opponent and how they reacted to me.

I made a big gigantic guide on Playing to Learn years ago, and while there are some things that have been said better, I think a lot of it still holds up well. At the time nobody was talking about mental states, "the neutral position", or any other of the more cerebral aspects of competitive play. If you are interested here is a link.

 

[Kadano]

Is there anything else I need to be working towards? I'm somewhat ignorant about a lot of the higher end tech stuff these days.

Are you consistent at walljumptech-bair? Learning this is what improved my Marth's survivability most. Doing neutral techs to (fast fall to) sweetspot up-B is nice and all, but your opponent has so much time to throw another move at you that it doesn't really get you anywhere. With bair, you can grab the ledge without using up-B and hit most opponent trying to edgeguard you if you do it early enough.
Here is a .gif I made some time ago that shows the right button input timing.

Because the frame window for the jump input is rather large, I placed the jump button images both on the first frame you can trigger the walljumptech and on the last frame you can trigger it. Every frame between works too, of course.

 

[MookieRah]

That looks nifty, definitely something to work on.

Because the frame window for the jump input is rather large, I placed the jump button images both on the first frame you can trigger the walljumptech and on the last frame you can trigger it

I'm a bit confused with this, because when I did ledge-tech practice with Falco a year or so ago I found that all I had to do to initiate the wall jump frum the tech was simply hold up after the tech. Was this just because the window was so long that it accepted the input?

 

[Kadano]

I haven't done the most elaborate testing, but I just checked again and it seems that as long as there is a jump input on any of the first 4 teching frames. Doesn't matter if it's been held before or not.

 

[Bones0]

so cool story: bones double shield dropped me on some transformation of PS. shield drop into I guess maybe a shai drop? or something like that...

i got about 150% though in the first 2 stocks cause he was shield dropping every time and mahone had said bones was good at shield drop so i just assumed he would shield drop a lot.

but the double shield drop definitely threw me off and cost me a stock. Pretty cool

I didn't shai drop because there was no dash. I just shield dropped, landed on the next plat, and then shield drop daired. Not sure I've ever actually used that to any great effect though. lol I should probably just stop trying to shield drop constantly. I do so much better when I just let them come naturally...

An illusion. You shield drop through one platform, then fast fall through the next and pile drive your enemy from above.

False. I'm not even sure if this is possible because of how close together the plats are (on PS's jungle transformation). If it is possible, it's certainly ridiculously hard for humans because you have to release down and repress it to FF within like 3 frames...

Yes you can with marth's fair and falco's bai. any auto cancelable aerial. But nobody does it. Except No Ca$h.

I'm pretty sure every aerial can be autocanceled. Or at least the vast majority. What matters most is how fast the move comes out and how the move contorts your landing detection box.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, I've spent a lot of time chewing over and implementing the advice PP gave me on movement, and my improvement has been, well, pretty incredible (or at least it feels that way). I sort of had an epiphany when I really understood what PP meant when he said that there needs to be a purpose behind DDing, as opposed to just sort of spastic movement. I've gotten better at analyzing how people react to my movement, and I think I'm getting a better feeling for what Umbreon was always talking about with aggressive movement. I've also definitely been using longer dashes as well and unsurprisingly enough, they fill the roles you said they would perfectly; beforehand, I had sort of limited myself to choppy short dashes and WDs. I feel a lot more comfortable in my character's skin now. Yaaay PP! Sorry that this is sort of a pointless post, but I felt pretty happy with my progress. Going to a monthly this weekend, I'll try to get something recorded.

tl;dr You're a good person Dr. PeePee

YESSSSSSSS NICE DUDE!!!!!

I'm looking forward to your videos =)

Wow Kevin you're so cool. You Abe Lincoln looking mother ****er.

Marth's "aggressive movement" is a detailed and complex way to say that you basically pin them down and **** them until they die. The more you see your play lining up to this finished product, the more likely you're doing it right since doing anything else invariably gets you killed.

Marth is much like Fox and unlike most of the rest of the cast in that the more you're playing optimally, the easier the character feels to play. Once you truly "get it" for either of those 2 characters, your decision-making gets so much easier because the one correct choice is just so obvious compared to the many other incorrect options. Characters like Falco or Peach never seem to get this way. Either that or I just don't personally understand them as well.

Can I direct you to Peach's Fair?

Lately I've found myself into positions where I'm up against the ledge and don't have enough room to move around. I usually either go for a shield if I think they're going to opt for something reckless, like a F-smash. If I'm feeling confident about when they're coming in I'll run off stage and land back on with a Bair. The only other option I ever do it grab the ledge and play with the invincibility (which I think is counterproductive).

Anybody want to advise me toward better options?

Marth already incrementally takes stage, but usually he can do it with movement OR sword and that is why movement is so scary. When you lose more movement(retreating) options, you have to make best use of movement forward options and sword. It's hard, but doable to push yourself out of a bad space slowly or quickly depending on circumstances. Heck, sometimes you can just avoid all of that if you can trick your opponent into thinking you want out and then Dthrow lol them offstage.

I was more referring to both survival DI and combo DI (not so much combo DI but it's applicable really), but not as in learning the optimal way to DI against specific things, but more for teaching myself to be observant enough as to be ready for an attack and to input a DI if I were to be hit. Honestly I think it'd be a bit pointless to begin trying to find all of the optimal ways of DI'ing if I'm not able to react consistently enough : P.

I was already doing the motion sensor bomb thing, but I might try the Falcon Punch method soon as it might be less annoying to train under.

Current training regiment:
Spacing, spacing, spacing: Focusing on making sure I land my attacks in a safe and effective manner. I thought I knew what spacing was back in the day, but the level people have now is so precise that it makes my brain spin. Working on making it so that I hardly ever overextend myself while I'm in the middle of aerials and the like.

Continue working on wave landing on platforms: Tthis is becoming second nature now, I'm really sad I didn't devote time to this back in the day when ThomasTipman was the only one doing it, considering how easy it is in the grand scheme of things. I'm trying, as much as one can, to implement this in how I go on the offense as well.

Shield Dropping: I never started working on this. Occasionally I would pop back in on the scene and attend a tournament or to, but this has always slipped me by. I'm working on it at the moment, seems nifty.

DI and Smash DI ledge teching: Self explanatory.

Is there anything else I need to be working towards? I'm somewhat ignorant about a lot of the higher end tech stuff these days.



I remembered when I figured this out way back in the day. It's really quite a surreal once you realize this, and then you actually know what people mean when they say "mind games." Not only that it's way more fun to force your opponent to play your game. Ironically I discovered the idea of manipulating opponents through movement while just trying to be as annoying as possible. The simple change in mindset took me out of my typical, almost robotic reactive way of playing, and got me to really focus on my opponent and how they reacted to me.

I made a big gigantic guide on Playing to Learn years ago, and while there are some things that have been said better, I think a lot of it still holds up well. At the time nobody was talking about mental states, "the neutral position", or any other of the more cerebral aspects of competitive play. If you are interested here is a link.

I remember reading that thread when I started playing. I didn't fully get it at the time but man did it pay off anyway!

And if you're looking to REACT to hits....then perhaps picking different levels of CPU and reacting to their attacks when you jump or get close to them can help you. I suggest different levels because CPUs have a set range they will attack from, so doing different levels will expose you to different timings of attacks, even if those attacks do come in set spacings for each level.

I recommend you work on movement and setting up combos, but then again I recommend that to everyone lol.

Are you consistent at walljumptech-bair? Learning this is what improved my Marth's survivability most. Doing neutral techs to (fast fall to) sweetspot up-B is nice and all, but your opponent has so much time to throw another move at you that it doesn't really get you anywhere. With bair, you can grab the ledge without using up-B and hit most opponent trying to edgeguard you if you do it early enough.
Here is a .gif I made some time ago that shows the right button input timing.

Because the frame window for the jump input is rather large, I placed the jump button images both on the first frame you can trigger the walljumptech and on the last frame you can trigger it. Every frame between works too, of course.

FREAKING HATE TWITCH HE ALWAYS DOES THIS TO ME AND DOESN'T MAIN MARTH BOOOO

 

[knightpraetor]

i assume you are talking about marth dittos. fox/falco just naturally edgeguard in ways that can't be teched.

And yeah, currently in the marth ditto, marths tend to use fsmash and dtilt in quite a few spots to edgeguard when they think that nair /bair from the ledge won't actually kill (low percent), so it gets really annoying when your opponent starts tech bairing everything. Mahone used to do that way too much too

 

[ShroudedOne]

Can I direct you to Peach's Fair?

Haha, so much truth here. And yet, I sense some salt.

DK's fair is the one move I know of for sure that can not be autocancelled. I think the rest can.

 

[Strong Badam]

it's the only aerial in the entire game

 

[Deleted member]

Here is a .gif I made some time ago that shows the right button input timing.

Can you replace the bair with a waveland onto the stage into grab and show us what that would look like? is that even possible?

 

[Strong Badam]

would need to have a double jump still (he wouldn't in this case since he Up-B'd)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Looking back at that gif, I didn't know you could press R that early.

 

[Kadano]

Can you replace the bair with a waveland onto the stage into grab and show us what that would look like? is that even possible?

No, it's not possible because Marth's walljumptech moves him more away than upwards. You could only airdodge.

Edit: Here is a screenshot that shows the earliest frame Marth would be high enough to waveland:

However, he's clearly too far away from the stage.
Airdodging upwards on the first possible frame also leaves you with frame disadvantage.
Bair is the only good choice.

Looking back at that gif, I didn't know you could press R that early.

A sweetspotted up-B grabs the ledge on frame 23. Tech window is 20 frames. In the gif, I think I put the R-button on frame 6, which isn't even the earliest possible that would cover your entire vincibility near the ledge. I prefer teching early as you have more time to concentrate on SDI, jump and bair. Also, if (in teams) another recovering character hits you early during your up-B, you have free extra teching frames.

A bit unrelated but interesting nonetheless, at least to me:
If you're recovering against a Marth and still have a certain degree of mobility, you can actually space your up-B so the Marth on stage can't hit you with fsmash/dtilt if he's standing where he had to if you'd wallhug, like in the gif. He would need to move a bit closer to the ledge. However, if he does that and you actually wallhug, he can't hit you because you'll hit him first.

 

[Bones0]

I've been wanting to try these:
1. Tech (no jump), Side-B to grab the ledge
2. Tech (no jump), bair to hit the opponent away, up-B back to the ledge (repeat if necessary)

 

[MT_]

Really good info Kadano; it's been making me review my knowledge on teching.

I think the frame data on tech window frames and the ledge invincibility frame is pretty important; but did you count the frames of hit lag? It depends on the move you're getting hit by obviously, and in addition can be bypassed if you do actual SDI (not just rely on ASDI), but I think it's important to mention.

Assuming that you don't always do a perfect sweetspot, how many more frames does it take to grab the ledge if you're off by a little? Is there a sort of window of height that will allow you to snap to the ledge on frame 23? Or is it that if you're a single pixel too high that you'll be a frame later to the ledge or something like that? Is maybe 28-29 frames a more realistic expectation in an actual match?

Hmmmmmmmmm.

 

[MT_]

2. Tech (no jump), bair to hit the opponent away, up-B back to the ledge (repeat if necessary)

You die. Can't up-B in time. Ever since I've started adding actual smash DI (not just ASDI) to my teching, I've done a lot of neutral techs (no jump) and bair'd immediately because of my previous habits and then died since you can't up-B in time. I think anyway.

And often you won't even hit them

 

[Bones0]

You die. Can't up-B in time. Ever since I've started adding actual smash DI (not just ASDI) to my teching, I've done a lot of neutral techs (no jump) and bair'd immediately because of my previous habits and then died since you can't up-B in time. I think anyway.

And often you won't even hit them

Oh damn, you're right. I was thinking of DJing and bairing, but you wouldn't have a DJ at that point. derp

 

[Kadano]

I've been wanting to try these:
1. Tech (no jump), Side-B to grab the ledge

Possible, but of course you need to still have your side-B-jump and you only have a 2 frame window.

2. Tech (no jump), bair to hit the opponent away, up-B back to the ledge (repeat if necessary)

Even the earliest bair possible doesn't hit the opponent (at least not if he's an fsmashing Marth). Even on frame perfection, up B doesn't reach high enough to grab the ledge.

I think the frame data on tech window frames and the ledge invincibility frame is pretty important; but did you count the frames of hit lag?

Amount of hitlag doesn't really matter because as soon as you SDI into the wall, you enter the teching animation. You can do this on the first frame of hitlag.

It depends on the move you're getting hit by obviously, and in addition can be bypassed if you do actual SDI (not just rely on ASDI), but I think it's important to mention.

Using only ASDI and no SDI is a really bad idea anyway. SDI really isn't that hard for wallteching. Leaving it out will make your teching very unreliable.

Assuming that you don't always do a perfect sweetspot, how many more frames does it take to grab the ledge if you're off by a little? Is there a sort of window of height that will allow you to snap to the ledge on frame 23? Or is it that if you're a single pixel too high that you'll be a frame later to the ledge or something like that? Is maybe 28-29 frames a more realistic expectation in an actual match?

Good question. Look at the image in my last post. See the red and blue rectangles in front of and behind Marth's face? These are his ledge grab boxes. As long as his height derivative is negative (i.e. he is falling) and the corresponding box (on the left edge, the blue box) overlaps the edge while the other box (in this case, the red one; this fortunately never happens on FD¹) doesn't, Marth will grab the ledge.

If you sweetspot perfectly, you will grab the ledge on frame 23. Because of the large size of the ledgegrab box, that "perfect" window is actually pretty big. I just tried sweetspotting in real time and normal stage mode (so that it would play like a normal match) a few times and went to frame-by-frame mode as soon as I had pressed up-B. Every single time I grabbed the ledge on frame 23. While I'm not a noob at sweetspotting, I'm also definitely not perfect at it. So I think it's realistic to calculate with that.

¹On Battlefield, the walls don't push you a bit away if you're coming from below like they do on FD and most other stages. Thus, rather close sweetspot attempts will result in the wrong ledge grab box overlapping with the ledge. Here's a screenshot:

To grab it, the ledge had to be in the blue box instead of the red.

 

[MT_]

Good question. Look at the image in my last post. See the red and blue rectangles in front of and behind Marth's face? These are his ledge grab boxes. As long as his height derivative is negative (i.e. he is falling) and the corresponding box (on the left edge, the blue box) overlaps the edge while the other box (in this case, the red one; this fortunately never happens on FD) doesn't, Marth will grab the ledge.

If you sweetspot perfectly, you will grab the ledge on frame 23. Because of the large size of the ledgegrab box, that "perfect" window is actually pretty big. I just tried sweetspotting in real time and normal stage mode (so that it would play like a normal match) a few times and went to frame-by-frame mode as soon as I had pressed up-B. Every single time I grabbed the ledge on frame 23. While I'm not a noob at sweetspotting, I'm also definitely not perfect at it. So I think it's realistic to calculate with that.

Thanks a lot for testing this! It's really helpful information. I mentioned the SDI/hitlag in teching earlier because my first notions of ledge/wall-teching were not very good (I assumed you just pushed L and got lucky sometimes; I know now that I was just getting the tech via ASDI). For the level that I'm at, I'm actually really bad at SDI so this kind of info is pertinent to me but yeah you're right; SDI is way more reliable and should be the way that anybody techs.

Good stuff.

EDIT: Just reread your post about the red/blue boxes and got a random question; is the reason behind getting Battlefield'd is that the ledge is actually further out than you can physically go into the stage? Which would make it so that both red and blue boxes overlap the ledge...

 

[Kadano]

EDIT: Just reread your post about the red/blue boxes and got a random question; is the reason behind getting Battlefield'd is that the ledge is actually further out than you can physically go into the stage? Which would make it so that both red and blue boxes overlap the ledge...

I actually covered this with an edit in my last post, haha. Yes that's true, that's why Battlefield's ledges suck so much. Although I'm pretty sure that the ledge itself is an infinitesimally small object that can only collide with one of the two blue/red boxes at the same time. Probably depending on your state/direction, one of the boxes (or both, like in Captain Falcon's up-B peak) get a "can grab ledge" flag while the other one is simply inactive.
This is only my guess, I'm no software hacking pro like Magus420 so I hope I'm not spreading misinformation here, haha.

 

[MT_]

Nice lol. Thanks for explaining this stuff. It's pretty interesting to get a good look at the mechanics of the game.

 

[Deleted member]

for the air dodge, can you air dodge out of the fsmash and shield before marth recovers?

basically in the marth mirror whenever i tech an edge guard, i always air dodge up and into block. this forces the other marth to grab me and forward throw me, which i'm ready for and it's basically worthless and doesn't let him get the kill at all. i'm just not sure how tight the timing is, or if it works with the wall jump tech.

 

[MasterShake]

You die. Can't up-B in time.

Word. Hyprid was fsmash edgeguarding me in tourney recently. I did it so instantly and got the 13% on him, then I couldn't upB in time. I was pretty upset lol.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Wow, this post is gold. Answering a question that was already answered, answering it very wrong, and the lack of proofreading. More embarrassing then watching your Shiek try to techchase with B-throw.

thank you, for the critique, 10/10 would read, again, didn't notice that you answered back as I was on my fonedevice. I didn't answer, wrong.
I am sorry swf police

 

[Mahone]

for the air dodge, can you air dodge out of the fsmash and shield before marth recovers?

basically in the marth mirror whenever i tech an edge guard, i always air dodge up and into block. this forces the other marth to grab me and forward throw me, which i'm ready for and it's basically worthless and doesn't let him get the kill at all. i'm just not sure how tight the timing is, or if it works with the wall jump tech.

do you just mean at super low percents?

cuz i don't see why ud choose that over wall jump bair

 

[BTmoney]

thank you, for the critique, 10/10 would read, again, didn't notice that you answered back as I was on my fonedevice. I didn't answer, wrong.
I am sorry swf police

Hey man, I don't judge you. Where's the love swf?

I have a serious Q though, what is the window to input an ariel while dropping through a ledge and still being able to land on it? I do it with Falco and I must say it's sexy. I just can't get it at will.


@PP

Hey pal,

Would you consider going Marth against high level space animals with the intention of winning?
Just by looking at your tenacious gameplay and interviews I could see you doing that and having no johns about it.

What do you personally feel like Marth's current high level MU spread looks like, say Fox/Falco/Sheik/Peach (and puff if you want)?. I am trying to come up with a combination of two characters and the ability to play two characters that cover each other and are conducive to winning.
I am sort of ignoring Fox for a plethora of reasons but you can throw him in there if you want in your answer.
It's an interesting approach imo but I don't exactly intend on having a "main." I am more interested in playing match ups. I take that with a grain of salt already. It's more or less what M2k does.
I am thinking Falco/Sheik is actually a very solid combination but I'd like your interpretation of the metagame.

Also how is M2k's falco lmao?



I also appreciate the way you communicate with us

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP

Hey pal,

Would you consider going Marth against high level space animals with the intention of winning?
Just by looking at your tenacious gameplay and interviews I could see you doing that and having no johns about it.

What do you personally feel like Marth's current high level MU spread looks like, say Fox/Falco/Sheik/Peach (and puff if you want)?. I am trying to come up with a combination of two characters and the ability to play two characters that cover each other and are conducive to winning.
I am sort of ignoring Fox for a plethora of reasons but you can throw him in there if you want in your answer.
It's an interesting approach imo but I don't exactly intend on having a "main." I am more interested in playing match ups. I take that with a grain of salt already. It's more or less what M2k does.
I am thinking Falco/Sheik is actually a very solid combination but I'd like your interpretation of the metagame.

Also how is M2k's falco lmao?



I also appreciate the way you communicate with us

I hope your last part isn't sarcasm....I try to be pleasant and helpful with you guys haha.

And about your questions...

I could totally consider going Marth vs spacies to win, particularly Falco. Falco vs Fox those Foxes got mad catching up to do vs Falco and maybe Falco wins idk but that's just easier to do for now haha. The Falco ditto is still admittedly still a little awkward for me even if I have figured plenty out about it and Marth I know what I need to do it's just a matter of doing it and practicing the skills I need to do it. Granted, I think my Marth vs Fox matchup is very solid, but I don't see a point in doing that unless my Falco is off.

Oh boy matchups....

vs Fox- In this metagame, Marth wins. 55-45 to 60-40.

vs Falco- in this metagame, Marth loses. Closer to 60-40.

vs Sheik- in this metagame, Marth loses. 60-40.

vs Peach- in this metagame, Marth goes even? Or even loses lol.

vs Puff- in this metagame, Marth loses 55-45 maybe 60-40.



What I think Marth should be doing at top level with a fleshed out metagame:

fox: 50-50

falco: 55-45 (Marth)

sheik: 55-45(Sheik)

Peach: 60-40(Marth)

Puff: 55-45 maybe 60-40(Marth)


Falco/Sheik is a pretty solid metagame combination right now. Definitely don't think you could go wrong running that and both characters are solid enough at teams.

M2K picked multiple characters after he rose up with one. Mango and I did the same, as did Ken and others in his time. I think that's worth considering.

M2K's Falco is.....odd. It doesn't have the flow really required for Falco imo, but it has pretty unique punishment and laser ideas. Anyone looking for an intro to Falco should watch it since it's pretty straightforward and effective vs most players in most matchups. I guess I am somewhat easy to watch too so I would probably recommend M2K and myself for some straightforward Falco play. White dude Falcos lol.

 

[BTmoney]

Nah that's not sarcastic at all, you KK, and Umbreon are probably the most helpful people on the forum

 

[Deleted member]

i'm the forum ******.

 

[BTmoney]

More or less

 

[Kadano]

for the air dodge, can you air dodge out of the fsmash and shield before marth recovers?

No, you can't. If you do a rising air dodge on the first frame of your walljumptech, you have a frame disadvantage of 11 frames if done perfectly and with fast fall. If you do it later and do a 0° air dodge, the minimum frame disadvantage is 8. With both you basically rely on your opponent being bad at close range punishing. Most Marths will grab in this situation, but they can also bring out up-B.
Before those 11/8 frames, there is a long time where you're already air dodging, so your opponent has plenty of time to react. Walljumptech bair is the only good option and every Marth player should learn it.

 

[clowsui]

max i still haven't read through the other book yet cuz i'm a noob but things are going well

kevin are you going to ncr?

also sup marths

dtilt more

 

[knightpraetor]

surprising how much I agree with PP's matchup list. I think I agree with all of the current ones and even agree with PP's fleshed out metagame shift for marth vs sheik. Only problem is that list doesn't reflect how difficult it is to play marth vs sheik perfectly correct. But then I think marth jiggs is easy to play...so maybe if i just had 600-700 hrs of marth vs sheik practice I would think that was easy too

 

[Bones0]

ur mom was eazy