Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Anand]

What does it mean to "goldfish the audience"?

Help me Umbreon, you're my only hope.

 

[Roche_CL]

Hey guys, what you think about this :0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vps-bLWcNM4&feature=share&list=FL9W-f3QQaT4BVxPi31inA5Q

 

[Tee ay eye]

pretty cute

 

[Bones0]

Deep down, everyone knows Falco players are trolls at heart.

The people who cause the suffering of others unintentionally are Puff mains.

 

[Deleted member]

it means that i'm constantly gauging other people based on their posts basically. because people are interesting to me and i like to observe them.

 

[Anand]

Oh, like observing a goldfish in a fishbowl?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

hey bones wen are u going to xanadu next i want to play and learn from ur falco.

 

[Bones0]

Hopefully next week as long as I don't have work/school stuff going on. I'll be at EEVOlution this weekend if you're going to that.

 

[pewpewyou]

PP what's your advice on how to beat Sheik? Feel free to get as in-depth as you want

 

[Dr Peepee]

Your mobility and disjoints are better than hers, so you want to abuse that. Swinging second(unless it's Dtilt) is ideal but difficult.

CC'ing her tilts beats them so she won't use those much unless you start jumping. That leaves her Fair, dash attack, and grab. Fair you can avoid usually but sometimes Fair her first(I tried Nair at one point on YS iirc when I called Fair for bigger payoff but got hit so just Fair imo) but it's what comes after the Fair that's important. Tilts, dashes, grabs, rejumps, and slight waits are what you usually see, but it depends on the Sheik. Tilts and jabs or dashes if it hits your shield. Dash attack is for when she wants out of the corner finally because you're DD'ing and trying to hit her or not back up enough. It can be CC'd but you still have to be careful. Grab is a mixup when you shield too much, the end.

The rest is movement and Dtilt mastery and Uthrow combo mastery imo.

 

[Stylez]

Hey guys, what you think about this :0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vps-bLWcNM4&feature=share&list=FL9W-f3QQaT4BVxPi31inA5Q

omggggggggg

nice

 

[Purpletuce]

Advice on pivot grabbing for CG at low %s, and how to do it/is it something I should try to learn, of would I be fine just going for U-tilt or F-throw/B-throw -> chase?

Also, any good, safe options to catch people trying to go low for sweetspots? (like lets say a Doc)

 

[Bones0]

I start pivot grabbing Fox after 16%. Don't worry too much about grabbing as soon as possible at first. Just focus on spacing your grab. A lot of the time I think it's just easier to surprise them with another throw and do one tech chase and then continue with uthrows. I typically bthrow jab reset because bthrow is so fast and most players don't anticipate having to tech after they've been uthrown 3-4 times. You can also do stuff like fthrow SH fair to regrab (or if they tech roll away, whiff the fair and immediately dash attack regrab).

Marth's deepest edgeguarding move is obviously dair, but neutral-B can often be a bit safer, and as long as the hitbox comes out while you're still airborne it goes really deep. Just FH neutral-B next time you play and pause when it gets to its lowest point. If you don't have as much time to set it up, you can also just fair. As long as you time it properly, fair goes pretty deep as well. It won't kill as well as neutral-B, but you can probably follow it up if it does hit.

 

[Construct]

If I know the person is going to shine out, I find it easiest to just throw in a u-tilt and pick up the easy tech-chase rather than go for the pivot grab. At 18% or whatever the window is just too small. After the techchase, I go back to chaingrabbing to my heart's content.

People going for low sweetspots? Just hold the ledge, maybe hop off and back air them if they're getting uppity. Don't over-complicate things.




PP, how can I work on making my dashdance less predictable? I feel like I fall into recognizable patterns too easily, and even my mixups seem expected. My movement/neutral game is definitely the weakest aspect in my gameplay, but I feel like it's a lot harder to improve at from watching what other people do and internalizing it than say punishment or edgeguarding. Like in your recent sets against M2K, I almost never knew when you were going to attack, but I wasn't able to really deconstruct why. Your movement is just sooo unpredictable, and, well, mine isn't. Loool

 

[Bones0]

You can't utilt at that low of a %...

 

[Construct]

You can't utilt at that low of a %...

If I know the person is going to shine out, I find it easiest to just throw in a u-tilt and pick up the easy tech-chase rather than go for the pivot grab.

You have time to u-tilt, M2K does this all the time. You don't have time to utilt regrab because it won't send them high enough, but it'll knock them down for a simple techchase (techchasing is easy, and people almost never tech this in the first place because they're focused on shining out) and it tacks on enough percent to make the chaingrab easy again.

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wE0...WuOjedpfCdQolQy2Oe0r-CucoMhtQzrMHEtPQ&t=1m42s


edit: This isn't necessarily better than pivot-grabbing, it's just much, MUCH easier than the pivot regrab at ~18%, something even PP messes up in tournament. I'm much more confident in my tech-chasing than in my ability to consistently pivot grab, so I opt for this. Also, the only time you should bother with this is when it's obvious they're going for a shine escape; if they're just DIing away or something keep chaingrabbing as normal.

 

[Bones0]

Fox wasn't even trying to shine out of the grab in that clip. He full DIed to the side...

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, how can I work on making my dashdance less predictable? I feel like I fall into recognizable patterns too easily, and even my mixups seem expected. My movement/neutral game is definitely the weakest aspect in my gameplay, but I feel like it's a lot harder to improve at from watching what other people do and internalizing it than say punishment or edgeguarding. Like in your recent sets against M2K, I almost never knew when you were going to attack, but I wasn't able to really deconstruct why. Your movement is just sooo unpredictable, and, well, mine isn't. Loool

Oh man.

Maybe I should write an intro to movement or something sometime...

Basically, you should consider each dash/WD as something like an attack or zoning tool. Think of it like how 2D fighters like using actual moves to zone. Dash forward is like an attack and dash backward is like a zoning tool, and you can move out of both quickly. Do all moves with a clear intention like feeling out their intentions instead of merely setting up your attack/bait. The more you use movement for outside of necessity or "because you thought you should," the better you will be.

 

[Divinokage]

That experience... making everything you do meaningful and not have wasteful movements, it comes with a lot of the game understanding.. understanding how moves work and how they interact with each other is directly related to DDing and also when you should WD.

 

[Diakonos]

Oh man.

Maybe I should write an intro to movement or something sometime...

Please do this for us. Or else you'll get tonnes of questions at all times. Your dashdancing is incredible, like a some sort of shark that could downtilt at any moment. (Perhaps the swordfish would be a better comparison.)

 

[Construct]

Fox wasn't even trying to shine out of the grab in that clip. He full DIed to the side...

Yeah I was trying to respond in the middle of class and just wanted to illustrate that you could u-tilt at that low of a percent ('cause that was the part you took issue with) and snag an easy tech-chase; I couldn't think of a clip and timestamp where that was done on no DI off the top of my head but it's the exact same principle lmao, no reason to be so pedantic

Oh man.

Maybe I should write an intro to movement or something sometime...

Basically, you should consider each dash/WD as something like an attack or zoning tool. Think of it like how 2D fighters like using actual moves to zone. Dash forward is like an attack and dash backward is like a zoning tool, and you can move out of both quickly. Do all moves with a clear intention like feeling out their intentions instead of merely setting up your attack/bait. The more you use movement for outside of necessity or "because you thought you should," the better you will be.

Yes, definitely, this would be wonderful. I'm pretty sure that "because you thought you should" sums up my movement game pretty accurately. That's an interesting look at dash forward/dash back, I'll think about that for awhile.


+1 Diakonos

edit: @ Kage: Yeah, I feel like I'll get better at this with experience and time, but I'm not a very patient person... Anything that helps me improve faster is better ! (this account is a year old, but I really haven't played all that much-playgroup johns)

 

[FrootLoop]

I think people should try longer dashes.

Is there a reliable counter against lasers from the ledge?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Longer dashes is indeed a very good start! Understanding the purpose of the long/short dash and everything in between is crucial for solid movement. Keeping it strictly to 2 terms, understanding both lengths of dash is important. They adjust your spacing and momentum very differently!

And there would be a reliable laser counter if lasers came up at the same height always or you could always get into the same position every time you wanted to, or......

PS'ing the first laser is probably pretty universally good LOL.

 

[D1]

Falco vs. Marth? On flat and platformed stages please. Lightshields ruin my opportunities for shine grab so I thought about throwing in cross up empty short hop grabs to remedy that, and the PSed lasers can be a pain but I do remember to shoot 'em low to allow myself to short hop over and keep applying pressure.

 

[MT_]

Is there a reliable counter against lasers from the ledge?

I don't know why people don't do this but just shield grab the first laser. The timing is easy and you will grab before the second laser comes out. Plus it's way less committal than something like counter.

(assuming you're talking about ledgehop double laser)

Otherwise yea PS is pretty good.

 

[Roche_CL]

omggggggggg

nice

thx n_n

 

[Bones0]

Yeah I was trying to respond in the middle of class and just wanted to illustrate that you could u-tilt at that low of a percent ('cause that was the part you took issue with) and snag an easy tech-chase; I couldn't think of a clip and timestamp where that was done on no DI off the top of my head but it's the exact same principle lmao, no reason to be so pedantic

It's not pedantic at all. When you DI away utilt hits way sooner because it starts in front of marth, not above him. You could also just look at the clip and see that if Fox had been at the same height before the utilt connected but right on top of Marth, he would have been able to shine out easily.

 

[Construct]

He can't shine out because he's in hitstun afaik, just tested it in training mode and it says it combos. Not trying to come off as a jerk, I'm just unconvinced that I'm wrong

Longer dashes is indeed a very good start! Understanding the purpose of the long/short dash and everything in between is crucial for solid movement. Keeping it strictly to 2 terms, understanding both lengths of dash is important. They adjust your spacing and momentum very differently!

And there would be a reliable laser counter if lasers came up at the same height always or you could always get into the same position every time you wanted to, or......

PS'ing the first laser is probably pretty universally good LOL.

So, how would you outline the differences between long and short dashes?

Ledgehop lasers are too fast for me to react to and powershield It's too hard for me to tell if he's just going to dair on or ledgedash grab or something instead. Can you CC the lasers into something? I don't deal well with ledgehop lasers either, haha. I'll try shieldgrabbing the first one like MT recommended.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I doubt this is legit, but I can sometimes tipper fsmash falco out of his LHDL if I have a read (with the timing being - as soon as I see him move, fsmash). I don't think this is a good strategy, but it's satisfying.

 

[MT_]

So LDHL as an option for Falco to return to the stage after grabbing the ledge is sort of interesting and can be good for Falco depending on certain spacings. I'll try to elaborate.

The time between lasers one and two is actually REALLY long and you can pretty much do anything in between them if you shield the first one and are close enough; if you're Fox, you can easily shine OOS and guarantee a kill after the first laser and you can definitely shieldgrab after the first laser (it's pretty a free punish if they opt to LHDL your shield and you're near the ledge). HOWEVER, most (good) Falcos will realize this and won't try to LHDL your shield at the ledge and instead will opt for things that will take advantage of your being in shield like ledge-hop delayed dair or rolling or even regular get-up -> shine etc.

BUT, you can still bait out LHDL with some consistency because LHDL is actually a pretty good option when you aren't right next to the ledge (or on the platform above the ledge etc) because it allows you to return to the stage while simultaneously establishing some control via making the opponent deal with lasers... but the thing is LHDL is actually pretty slow in starting up and because Marth is so fast he can easily move from a place far from the ledge (where LHDL would be safe) to a place near the ledge where he can get the punish. For example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7rsLL6ruc4#t=10m17s (I powershielded it on accident but it wouldn't have made a difference if I didn't get the powershield).

Funny side note to this: if you manage to let him get the second laser out right before you actually grab him, then the laser will break the grab and send Falco off at a sharp angle without his jump and he's screwed. Here it is happening in me vs Mango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpgVwvGwoU#t=9m52s


LHDL is a fairly specific nuance in the matchup IMO and learning how to deal with them isn't going to make you magically beat Falcos that you wouldn't otherwise, but if your opponent always returns from the ledge with LHDL even if you're up near the ledge then knowing the above information can prove very useful to you...



In other news, despite being regarded (in Texas) as being really good against Falco, I have come to realize that I don't know the matchup at all and just rely on powershields all day for openings... whoops.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, Umbreon, some time ago you put it into my mind to attempt a more commitment free marth. In doing so I am continually finding myself in a position with Marth against Falco and uncertain how to take advantage of it.

Typically, on stages that are small you might get-up with Fair/Nair and it hits Falco away low to the ground. Should he tech in place/roll towards you you can cover this by DD grab. Should he roll away you can only punish it before he can shine/spot dodge by making the read to dash in the direction fully. In some cases you cannot even accomplish this should they be hit far enough (say Ftilt from near the ledge and it hits falco to the other side of FD). Effectively, should Falco tech roll away and Marth is unable to get guaranteed punishes off the tech lag.

How should marth close this distance between Falco?

If you do nothing, then you are back in neutral setting with a ton of distance between Falco. By choosing to fully dash in the direction of Falco you lose all ability to dash dance. To get it back you have to stop and wavedash. By which time Falco has fully recovered and can start laser control or attempt to wild arm your approach with an aerial. Charging at Falco with a dash attack/aerial is also stupid because you are committing and this is evaded by him simply.

So in this situation, I do not see how Marth can maintain a strong advantage without committing. What do you see as a proper response? Sticking with an option that keeps your open I would opt for dash in-close, wavedash to a stop and observe from there. If this were any character other than Fox/Falco, I would say dashing into crouch dtilt would be justifiable as well.

Marth's advantage on the small stage stems from the new change in positioning where Falco is "trapped" near the edge. On a large stage, this is not the case (one of many reasons to avoid DL64 as Marth). Either way, when you use something like fair or nair or ftilt as a "get off me" option, you're mostly doing it to negate Falco's means to put you in a disadvantageous position, so resetting to neutral is still a minor victory of sorts, even if it doesn't feel like one.

Marth's goal for tech chasing is to match his macro goal of keeping the opponent in a bad position as the events play out. For you, the scary option Falco has is actually tech in place and shine since Marth's immediate cover options are very soft to it. You're either forced into another slow swing or you risk poorly spaced grabs and you can just get hit by shine. But that's not your question so we'll go back to that some other time maybe.

You want to close the distance such that when Falco comes out of invincibility from the roll, you're at a range where you can grab or reverse up B but not get shined. If you can do this reliably, it sets up either the option to just take the grab, or you at least have enough time to go for a dtilt instead if you can get that spacing. Once you get Falco to tech roll away from you, your end game is using that loss of stage for him to transition into another advantageous position. As with most tech chase situations, your job is to react as best as you can without over-extending. If you're not sure what to do, at least try to end up in my suggested positioning when Falco comes out, and simply react to what he does as best as you can. See if you can get a feel for how to leverage each situation, as tech chasing tends to be highly specific to each case and much less rigid than most choices for interaction.

That said, if your "flow chart" of sorts means that you tech chase into dtilt tip into easy edge position, good for you. If you have to go into a grab, remember that the damage generally doesn't matter here so you're just doing your best to keep Falco screwed long enough to kill him out of the grab. What that means for you is that you should choose your throws wisely based on where you need Falco to be to screw him over, and more specifically that you should not "forward throw him to the edge" or "upthrow and combo him" as either may be correct or incorrect at any given point. Just think through your actions basically. The only thing I can say for sure is that if you intend to disrespect him out of the tech roll to try to get something you don't deserve, don't give your opponent time to react to you. So don't pummel after a grab to give your opponent time to react and DI correctly. Same goes for tech chase into up B if you're feeling yourself.

From a neutral standpoint, Falco's lasers generally trump Marth's DD for stage control, so being close to him on wake-up is a good deal for you. Both of you are sacrificing your stage control, but his loss is slightly greater than yours. Additionally, you can set up many unfavorable situations for Falco where he's not truly at neutral, but rather pinned between the edge and Marth and something like react into shield DI on your part can really ruin him.

I'm aware that this isn't a classy answer, but translating play finesse into english is rarely ideal. Work out my suggested spacing and try to react and come back if you discover any new issues as they arise.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Alright, I'll see where it takes me.

The distance you seem to be proposing is a lot closer than I usually tend to think about when Falco comes out of tech lag in the situation I originally described. I have been usually waiting outside of his max SH range after a dash feeling not confident enough to react to his options after that. If I should be able to react to his SH options, then I suppose the only one to worry about is shine and to do so get closer than what I have been doing yet not close enough for shine to hit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco vs. Marth? On flat and platformed stages please. Lightshields ruin my opportunities for shine grab so I thought about throwing in cross up empty short hop grabs to remedy that, and the PSed lasers can be a pain but I do remember to shoot 'em low to allow myself to short hop over and keep applying pressure.

Lol my threads.

If lightshields are beating shine grab, then keep hitting their shield. They can literally stay stuck in stun and get pushed to the edge, which is a pretty solid position for you. The empty cross up grab is good too!

Also vary when you shoot and what spacings you shoot at. Do a little more dashing/WD'ing or jumping before shooting and do them at close and far spacings so the opponent can't PS so easily.

Flat stages....so FD: Focus on punishing hard here and forget about being afraid of grab. If it happens it happens and you can still break out. Dair shine Marth until you knock him offstage and then work your Bairs until Marth has to die.

Platforms: Retreating with FHs to platforms is great because you can come off of them with quicker lasers or slower ones as well as adjust how far you come off of them with SHs or Isai Drops......abuse platforms lol. Knocking Marth onto them with Utilts or Dairs is great because then you get easy tech chases(watch for edge cancels.) Go for edge cancels when you start getting hit.

General stuff: Don't jab not worth it. Maintain at least some stage control to stay a threat. Ftilt isn't really that good either.

So, how would you outline the differences between long and short dashes?

Ledgehop lasers are too fast for me to react to and powershield It's too hard for me to tell if he's just going to dair on or ledgedash grab or something instead. Can you CC the lasers into something? I don't deal well with ledgehop lasers either, haha. I'll try shieldgrabbing the first one like MT recommended.

Long dashes- deep lengthy strides that exaggerate my intentions and make them "obvious" to my opponent. Also used to slow the pacing of the match, among other things.

Short dashes- Quickens the pace of the match. Typically used to hide my intentions or adjust my spacing minutely if at all.

I'm either far away so they can't keep moving out of LHDL, close so I can punish after the first, or on a platform so I can fall down with Fair afterward.

So LDHL as an option for Falco to return to the stage after grabbing the ledge is sort of interesting and can be good for Falco depending on certain spacings. I'll try to elaborate.

The time between lasers one and two is actually REALLY long and you can pretty much do anything in between them if you shield the first one and are close enough; if you're Fox, you can easily shine OOS and guarantee a kill after the first laser and you can definitely shieldgrab after the first laser (it's pretty a free punish if they opt to LHDL your shield and you're near the ledge). HOWEVER, most (good) Falcos will realize this and won't try to LHDL your shield at the ledge and instead will opt for things that will take advantage of your being in shield like ledge-hop delayed dair or rolling or even regular get-up -> shine etc.

BUT, you can still bait out LHDL with some consistency because LHDL is actually a pretty good option when you aren't right next to the ledge (or on the platform above the ledge etc) because it allows you to return to the stage while simultaneously establishing some control via making the opponent deal with lasers... but the thing is LHDL is actually pretty slow in starting up and because Marth is so fast he can easily move from a place far from the ledge (where LHDL would be safe) to a place near the ledge where he can get the punish. For example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7rsLL6ruc4#t=10m17s (I powershielded it on accident but it wouldn't have made a difference if I didn't get the powershield).

Funny side note to this: if you manage to let him get the second laser out right before you actually grab him, then the laser will break the grab and send Falco off at a sharp angle without his jump and he's screwed. Here it is happening in me vs Mango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpgVwvGwoU#t=9m52s


LHDL is a fairly specific nuance in the matchup IMO and learning how to deal with them isn't going to make you magically beat Falcos that you wouldn't otherwise, but if your opponent always returns from the ledge with LHDL even if you're up near the ledge then knowing the above information can prove very useful to you...



In other news, despite being regarded (in Texas) as being really good against Falco, I have come to realize that I don't know the matchup at all and just rely on powershields all day for openings... whoops.

WHOA WTF

........

WOW

Lmfao I love Marth oh my GOSH

Good stuff!


And if you're great at PS'ing then shouldn't that help you get mad openings?

 

[MT_]

And if you're great at PS'ing then shouldn't that help you get mad openings?

It does actually lol. But if I ever have an off day for powershielding then I'm screwed pretty much (though lately my consistency day-to-day has been pretty good). But I don't think powershielding lasers is going to be reliable in the long run; Falco has things he can do to get around powershielding like being sure to shoot his lasers lower and then jumping over them into an approach which works great against my PS->wavedash forward approach. Falco can often also jab before Marth can do anything out of PS->wavedash forward if he reacts fast enough. It seems unrealistic but my training partner has sort of adapted to my consistent powershielding and stuffs about half of my PS->wavedash approaches with a reactionary jab or spotdodge or something like that. Of course it's up to me to make the next adaptation but I'm just mentioning that powershield lasers doesn't necessarily net free openings once the powershield isn't unexpected anymore.

Also it didn't really help me at all against you or Mango at Apex (I might have gotten a grab or two thanks to it, and granted you and Mango are both many many many levels above me) but it's really made me realize the gimmicky nature of relying on PS lasers and that my approach to the matchup in general is not based in any solid foundation at all lol. I think I tend to run away much too often and give up space very obviously and rely on both PS lasers and the opponent's mistakes (and gimmicky rolls) far too often to get openings/escape bad situations.

Stabbed on my Marth: http://smashboards.com/threads/help-vs-marth-please.332532/#post-15253015

So yeah. I think my current strategy in the matchup is effective up to the upper-middle level of play, but beyond that gets destroyed by simple solid play. I think I have to focus more on knowing how my spacing will affect Falco's tendency to choose either an aerial approach or to shoot a laser, and the options that I have to address both of these options at each specific spacing...

Meh. The more and more I play I feel my playstyle is just a big gimmick and I think most Marths are tbh. OH WELL. Just gotta keep working at it.

 

[Diakonos]

I rely on powershields... are you saying I'm a gimmick? :'(

 

[MT_]

Pretty much lol.

Though admittedly while I think power shielding for openings is ultimately a gimmick I'll concede that it's quite a powerful one haha.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PS'ing isn't a gimmick. It forces the Falco not to laser for free, or we could say he has to reconsider his laser patterns and strategy then. This usually means slowing down in some form to trick Marth or even speed up if he was slower before(usually not the case.) Since you can PS out of a dash, I like thinking of this as allowing Marth to get his dash back(which lasers are supposed to erase.) This makes life much easier for Marth.

PS'ing is not a gimmick, but relying on PS'ing without doing the necessary counter-adaptations to Falco is kinda whack though.

 

[knightpraetor]

so cool story: bones double shield dropped me on some transformation of PS. shield drop into I guess maybe a shai drop? or something like that...

i got about 150% though in the first 2 stocks cause he was shield dropping every time and mahone had said bones was good at shield drop so i just assumed he would shield drop a lot.

but the double shield drop definitely threw me off and cost me a stock. Pretty cool

 

[Purpletuce]

Shield dropping isn't really a thing that kills you, and I don't think a double shield drop would be useful in any situation. It would only be possible on the rock transformation (where you are safe in a hole), the windmill or the jungle transformation. . . In all of those situations, the shield drop probably didn't kill you, if anything he was being flashy and getting positioning, or just hitting you after you tried to poke his shield. . .

 

[Dr Peepee]

what the heck is a double shield drop

I'm old