Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Purpletuce]

He probably just shield dropped through a platform onto another platform and did it again, like the platfrorms on top of one another on the Rock/Earth transformations.

 

[strawhats]

He probably just shield dropped through a platform onto another platform and did it again, like the platfrorms on top of one another on the Rock/Earth transformations.

Ok that's when you know you've gone too far. People still breaking this game wtf?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

what the heck is a double shield drop

I'm old

An illusion. You shield drop through one platform, then fast fall through the next and pile drive your enemy from above.

 

[Divinokage]

I wonder if you can actually shield drop but not fall through the platform. Like shield drop -> instant bair but you stay on the platform.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I wonder if you can actually shield drop but not fall through the platform. Like shield drop -> instant bair but you stay on the platform.

I've done this before actually with Marth. Only it was with Uair instead of Bair. I could never get it work again except one other time.

 

[Purpletuce]

You definitely can, I do it often with Yoshi (it is particularly useful for him since he can't jump OoS), and have done it with Falco too. It is possible with every move that can be platform cancelled normally, although it is super hard for N-airs, like Shiek N-air, because it is hard to go back to neutral in time. . .

Even more useful is Shield drop -> Shine -> waveland on platform. It is like waveshining oos, about the same speed and easy (if you can shield drop) especially since you don't move the joystick much as all. . .

Note: When I say I do this, I'm not saying I've done it once, or I can do it if I'm trying that specifically against a lvl 1 cpu, I've actually made an attempt to implement this, and have done it in tourney, such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_dqJC8ke7tk#t=2256s. Being able to do something is 10x easier than implementing something

 

[MookieRah]

I have a big question:

What are/were your tech skill training methods when you are practicing solo?

Here is an example of the kind of answer I'm looking for:
I stopped playing smash competitively mostly in '06. We didn't have all the platform wavedashing stuff going on that much then, so to learn that on my own I've been playing a keep away game with a level 1 comp jumping and wavelanding on platforms. I do it with a comp so that it is varied and it isn't wrote memorization as I'm responding to an opponent. That translates into a practice that is also teaching me how to implement it into my game rather than just knowing how to do it.

I'm curious if there are any other things that I could do like that, or perhaps a better method of what I just said.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you look at my thread on the Falco boards in the OP, the last major post I wrote is about specifically how to train on your own. There are all kinds of good things to work on in there.

Whole-scale stage movement is good, but knowing how to apply that movement to opponents, particularly closer-range opponents, is best.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah he just did two in a row back to back really fast on a transformation it was kind of crazy. Thanks to them, I finally stopped being lazy and am now pretty consistent at shield dropping with falco

 

[DippnDots]

So Marth vs Falco, I feel like camping on platforms can be strong. Though I don't play falcos who can do the shine-auto-land on to the platform

 

[Purpletuce]

Marth thrives when his opponent is above him, if you platform camp and your opponent decides to run up there and commit to something long enough for you to get below him, go for it. Marth isn't as good as getting under characters as some other platform campers, like Fox, so it won't be too great of a tactic. I think it will only be useful if you play someone who doesn't know how to manage platform camping. . .

Related to both of the above posts, learning how to shield drop is super useful for Marth, especially against fastfallers, If you're on a platform, being able to drop down puts you in a position where you can super easily thech chase them with U-tilts and F-smashes etc, and usually leads into something. . . shield drop into immediate U-air -> positioning is one of my favorites. If they're below you, it isn't as useful though. . .

 

[Oasys17]

Watching a lot of high level marth's play, I see a good number of dash>Dtilts. How do you input that? I always seem to just get a delayed dash attack and then get my block rocked off :C

 

[BTmoney]

The only things you can do while in a foxtrot (a dash) are things that involve jumping or jump canceling, dash attacks, and grabs.

You cannot foxtrot->jump cancel->dtilt
Because the only things you can do out of a JC are jump, grab, and up smash
(And some B special moves I guess)

You have to run cancel meaning going past your initial dash then hold down so you crouch from your run then push A

Hopefully I explained that right

 

[Oasys17]

The only things you can do while in a foxtrot (a dash) are things that involve jumping or jump canceling, dash attacks, and grabs.

You cannot foxtrot->jump cancel->dtilt
Because the only things you can do out of a JC are jump, grab, and up smash
(And some B special moves I guess)

You have to run cancel meaning going past your initial dash then hold down so you crouch from your run then push A

Hopefully I explained that right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M ~33:00 Hmm... Maybe he's wavedashing? :X I can't really tell. I feel like I've seen him do it straight away from a dash dance though. But yeah the commentator mentions something about it around 33:23 or so

 

[Dr Peepee]

definitely a dash cancel then. I just know pretty much when I can and can't do it haha

 

[Oasys17]

Yeah How do you input it? I really wanna stop using dash attack, cuz it's awful, and dtilt seems like a much better option.

 

[Medz!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzCsu7w8m74&list=PLkXIsSB599ADBq-Z9qafI0YitqmQALvsi&index=3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQBQGpnp0NI&list=PLkXIsSB599ADBq-Z9qafI0YitqmQALvsi

would any of u mind critiquing my marth? i know i have a whole ways to go and i apologize for the mistakes since i was mad nervous lol, thanks in advance

 

[BTmoney]

definitely a dash cancel then. I just know pretty much when I can and can't do it haha

Isn't this what bones was talking about before with the whole "run canceling" thing lol?

Yeah How do you input it? I really wanna stop using dash attack, cuz it's awful, and dtilt seems like a much better option.

First, understand the difference between a dash and a run.

Okay. To do it like that all it is is crouching from your run and not your dash. While you are dashing, which once again is the initial burst, you cannot crouch to perform a dtilt.

You know you are running when you try to dash back the other way and you are slow to turn around. Dash dancing is making your foxtrot (initial dash) go back and forth.

If you can run and then crouch which is quite simple then you can do it.
It is as simple as:
dash long enough to transition from dashing to running->be in run->crouch (hold down)-> push a

You can also dtilt from wavedashes but keep in mind there are a few frames in a WD where you are in lag and can't perform anything.


If you are getting dash attacks then that means you are either still in your foxtrot (meaning you are also still inside the range where you can dash dance if that adds any clarity) or you did not hold down before you pushed a.


If you want to do it straight out of a dash dance, you have to perform a pivot. There is a frame while you are dashdacning when you have all options available to you because you are standing straight up and the game treats you as if you are not moving (because technically you are not). This probably isn't what you were looking for though. I haven't noticed any player with a substantial pivot game but I could be wrong. You can practice crouching out of your dash dance (somewhere in the middle). If you crouch in the middle then that means you got the pivot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9DTEt1I5u8


I mean if you can pivot at will then go for it because most people can't fully implement it. Pivoting is great but you only have 1 frame (1/60th of a second) to do what you want.

 

[Oasys17]

Thanks for being so thorough. I know a lot of terminology though(I come from a long background of fighters ), and I know the difference between dashing and running. I know you can crouch cancel a RUN by simply holding down. Marth's dash is exceptionally long though, and it isn't until he takes his SECOND step that you can crouch cancel. I feel like I've seen Marths do it from a DASH dance(Still the first step) and I'm unsure if they're wavedashing right before hand, or doing something else. Perhaps it's pivoting, like you were talking about? I'll have to try and test that in the lab... Thanks

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah if it is legitimately out of a dash dance it is either a pivot or a dash dance followed by a wave dash in place (so you dtilt where you are standing, or you can wave dash to wherever you want to dtilt etc.)

But yup those are the game mechanics and no problem :]

Edit:
Oh yeah, some people are really picky about terminology but I know what you meant though.

Dash canceling is a non existent thing that you can't do
(Unless you count specific things characters like fox and sheik can do)
Run canceling is holding down from a run into a crouch
Crouch canceling is holding down prior to getting hit to reduce knock back and hit stun while on the ground

 

[Dr Peepee]

dash canceling sounds cooler

 

[BTmoney]

tencharlol

edit:

dash canceling sounds cooler

This is so you get a notification. Lol /forumabuse
But anyways is there any merit to side B grab? I have seen you do that multiple times and you side B a lot in general. What are you looking for with them, when do you do them? If they do hit, what do you do with them other than uptilt (continue the dancing blade or what etc.)?

 

[Knut]

side b > SH shield breaker

 

[MookieRah]

Thx for the redirect to your Falco thread. Really great stuff, but I'm gonna bug you yet again.

In regards to training on your own, are there effective strategies for improving your DI? Currently I'm following some of my own old advice and making sure that my focus is always on my opponent, their positioning and options as a way to predict things before they happen. I'm curious as to how other people practice it though, especially people in the current meta where people simply make very few mistakes.

 

[BTmoney]

side b > SH shield breaker

That sounds very slow and I have literally never seen that

 

[Divinokage]

You definitely can, I do it often with Yoshi (it is particularly useful for him since he can't jump OoS), and have done it with Falco too. It is possible with every move that can be platform cancelled normally, although it is super hard for N-airs, like Shiek N-air, because it is hard to go back to neutral in time. . .

Even more useful is Shield drop -> Shine -> waveland on platform. It is like waveshining oos, about the same speed and easy (if you can shield drop) especially since you don't move the joystick much as all. . .

Note: When I say I do this, I'm not saying I've done it once, or I can do it if I'm trying that specifically against a lvl 1 cpu, I've actually made an attempt to implement this, and have done it in tourney, such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_dqJC8ke7tk#t=2256s. Being able to do something is 10x easier than implementing something

Damn.. the possibilities have increased! Cant imagine Ganon being fast enough to do an instant aerial but stay on the platform but I can see it being pretty useful for comboing and setups with other fast characters. Falco/Fox can do it.. ugh... =/

 

[Dr Peepee]

tencharlol

edit:

This is so you get a notification. Lol /forumabuse
But anyways is there any merit to side B grab? I have seen you do that multiple times and you side B a lot in general. What are you looking for with them, when do you do them? If they do hit, what do you do with them other than uptilt (continue the dancing blade or what etc.)?

Some of these questions are silly-hard and some aren't. Side B to grab is cool because you can keep going with it or go right into grab since side b is fast and doesn't have terrible cooldown. It's no regular jab LOL. I like to think of it as a fast jab like a spacie jab sometimes BUT WITH MORE DISJOINT AND STUPID.

I do side B if I think it will get an immediate reward(a kill or combo) or a future reward(conditioning now and later) and it's pretty safe on block/hit kinda. That's the very short version.

Thx for the redirect to your Falco thread. Really great stuff, but I'm gonna bug you yet again.

In regards to training on your own, are there effective strategies for improving your DI? Currently I'm following some of my own old advice and making sure that my focus is always on my opponent, their positioning and options as a way to predict things before they happen. I'm curious as to how other people practice it though, especially people in the current meta where people simply make very few mistakes.

People make tons of mistakes still I promise haha, but the overall level has certainly gone up!

I would say that survival DI and teching DI is pretty easy to practice and you can do it with motion sensor bombs or the Falcon Punch thing I put in my guide.

If you want to practice combo DI.....that one you have to set up with someone else afaik since CPUs can't really combo. The nice thing about combo DI is if you spend your time watching videos and learning good ways to combo and break combos then you can get some really good ideas to test out when you do get the chance to play other people and it won't take you so long to figure out how to DI as opposed to awkward trial-and-error stuff you could be doing on your own.

Perhaps you can adjust your percent and let CPUs hit you with aerials(you jump) or ground moves and you could try to react and DI in anticipation of future moves?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

ok ^^^ my di is pretty bad (particularly combo di) glad you brought it up but i know there is more depth to di than any other aspect in the game, its overwhelming and i need advice. Essentialy i am mind ****ed. someone be the hero and help me with all types of di. I can survive powerful blows, i can ledge tech and tech fsmashes and **** grounded. Just tell me all about smash di, automatic smash di, cstick di
i want to learn all those multiple inputs of di and all the good stuff. I read that doraki guide so plz dumb it down if thats possible but plz help me get better di PP or any body.

 

[Purpletuce]

You can shield drop -> platform cancel any move that can regularly platform cancel, which are:
• luigi's neutral air
• luigi's back air
• yoshi's up air
• falco's back air
• samus' neutral air
• sheik's neutral air
• link's neutral air
• link's up air
• young link's neutral air
• marth's forward air
• mario's neutral air
(from dphanna)

Although the time window is small enough that I don't think it is practical to reset to neutral in time to use a N-air, so the list of characters' moves who I think should be able to do it effectively is:
Luigi: B-air
Yoshi: U-air
Falco: B-air
Link: U-air
Marth: F-air

I've only actually done it with Yoshi and Falco. I don't ever play Shiek or Link, and I always shield drop -> U-air with Marth, I'll mess around with the F-air though.

So, no, Ganon can't do it.

 

[MT_]

Adding onto the side-B chat, keep in mind that it can be used easily out of a dash dance (you don't need to pivot to use it) which makes for a quick interrupt you can throw out out of dash dance.

 

[BTmoney]

Some of these questions are silly-hard and some aren't. Side B to grab is cool because you can keep going with it or go right into grab since side b is fast and doesn't have terrible cooldown. It's no regular jab LOL. I like to think of it as a fast jab like a spacie jab sometimes BUT WITH MORE DISJOINT AND STUPID.

I do side B if I think it will get an immediate reward(a kill or combo) or a future reward(conditioning now and later) and it's pretty safe on block/hit kinda. That's the very short version.

I asked the question simply because I wanted a complete answer, I did not want you to assume and predisposition that I had.
I was asking because I did not think that side B->grab really was legit at all lol also it looked to me like you were going for side-Bs in situations where you weren't looking for a uptilt or full dancing blade so I figured you were up to something else.

But thanks for the response :]

 

[Dr Peepee]

ok ^^^ my di is pretty bad (particularly combo di) glad you brought it up but i know there is more depth to di than any other aspect in the game, its overwhelming and i need advice. Essentialy i am mind ****ed. someone be the hero and help me with all types of di. I can survive powerful blows, i can ledge tech and tech fsmashes and **** grounded. Just tell me all about smash di, automatic smash di, cstick di
i want to learn all those multiple inputs of di and all the good stuff. I read that doraki guide so plz dumb it down if thats possible but plz help me get better di PP or any body.

ASDI= holding control stick OR using cstick
SDI= pushing control stick when you get hit before you fly away
So to get both you would press the control stick one direction(or multiple directions) while holding the c stick when you get hit.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I wonder if you can actually shield drop but not fall through the platform. Like shield drop -> instant bair but you stay on the platform.

Yes you can with marth's fair and falco's bai. any auto cancelable aerial. But nobody does it. Except No Ca$h.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

aight so i know its pissing u off but pp, or someone, cud u explain the thought process of di, like what to do with the control and cstick to avoid or break combos, and how do i get out of chaingrabs better. It wud make my game a lot better if i cud establish some good di. Also come to xanadu again so u can play a couple matches. Thanks dude really helpin out my falco

 

[Metal Reeper]

aight so i know its pissing u off but pp, or someone, cud u explain the thought process of di, like what to do with the control and cstick to avoid or break combos, and how do i get out of chaingrabs better. It wud make my game a lot better if i cud establish some good di. Also come to xanadu again so u can play a couple matches. Thanks dude really helpin out my falco

When getting combo'd you want to DI away from your opponent. When trying to survive you want to input a perpendicular angle to the original trajectory of your opponents move. I always send people this video when showing survival DI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SpjkhJzk-I

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

when shud i use cstick di in a combo and when shud i only use control stick
and what the hell is inputting several types of sdi into ur controller
so mind ****ed

 

[Metal Reeper]

You want to input multiple directions to get out of multi hit moves like fox's dair. You want to DI every indivisual hit.

 

[Tee ay eye]

when shud i use cstick di in a combo and when shud i only use control stick

almost never, unless you know how to double stick DI

 

[DippnDots]

Double stick DI isn't too hard once you get used to it, but the applications seem very situational to me :\ Unless I'm missing something obvious

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

oh so for things that have hitboxs, you shud input multiple dis to escape combos
so does that me i cant hold down the control stick cuz that will not hav any effect?
also where shud the cstick be held during all this
and ive been surviving with di fir sime time now but its the little quick stick movements that i need to learn cuz i feel like ****
and wtf is the deal with momentum canceling, after my hitlag shud i do a bair or uair like mango to gain momentum, this is a lot of noob questions but im ******** with di