Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[outofphase]

to be clear, dsmash doesnt have as much true ko power as fox's usmash, just knockback. the angle is a fairly decent 10 degrees from fox's at 80 to marth's at 70. i used the formula on the smash wiki, using sheik's weight. all data was drawn from master hand program. they are comparably strong at around 115-120%, i misspoke earlier about it being stronger. is is stronger until just above 105 i believe. marth's unstale tipper dsmash on sheik results in a knockback rating of 241.85 if landed at 100% (116% after hit). fox's unstale usmash on sheik at 100% (118% after dmage) comes out as 244.92. im sure there arent too many great setups for it, but how many people have really tried to find any? obviously dsmash isnt going to become a staple of marth's game, but its a possibly untapped resource. marth struggles to get stray kills, everyone knows this. 5 frames is practically unblockable on reaction, and i dont think its too much of a stretch to say that you could make a good read and land something with the speed of a fox ftilt if you need to pull something out. its not like people ever see it, and its not like youll be using it often enough for them to be present minded about it.

oh and i meant non tipper should be safe on hit at kill percents.

 

[Battlecow]

I mean that was a really freaking close GF's, at or above the level that M2K usually does against PP's falco

If m2k was playing that badly and was a game away from taking the whole thing, does that mean PP's marth would normally get ultra-bodied by the sheik?

or was just his marth bad

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Or Sheik vs Marth is just annoying no matter what.

 

[Battlecow]

yeah I mean PP has mentioned discomfort with that MU before

 

[Kadano]

im sure there arent too many great setups for it, but how many people have really tried to find any? obviously dsmash isnt going to become a staple of marth's game, but its a possibly untapped resource. marth struggles to get stray kills, everyone knows this. 5 frames is practically unblockable on reaction, and i dont think its too much of a stretch to say that you could make a good read and land something with the speed of a fox ftilt if you need to pull something out. its not like people ever see it, and its not like youll be using it often enough for them to be present minded about it.

I just remembered a scenario I thought up some time ago that might be useful. If a floaty is at killing % and sitting in her shield or an uncomfortable spot (near the ledge) and you are dashdancing, you can run near her to make her think you are going for a grab. If you call her going for a spot dodge, grab or quick attack (jab, dsmash), you can dash back a little bit and then do a pivot dsmash.
It’s no reliable setup, but if your call is correct, it’s a much better punishment than anything else you could do.

Also, fun fact: While it is true that dsmash comes out on the 5th frame, it is impossible to tipper with it on this frame. It does have a tipper hitbubble, but it’s placed in a position where it can never overlap with any characters hurtbubble. So if we’re only using it for tippering, it’s more accurate to think of it as coming out on the 6th frame.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thank ya Max, glad ya noticed =)

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Common times I use it are to shield poke, wake-up attack from the edge or a get-up, or to tech chase. Not necessarily tech chase to cover both options(tech in place or tech-roll behind me) although it can be used for that, but tech-chase in the sense that they are tech-rolling or get-up rolling away from my dashing Marth, so I don't have enough frames to fsmash before the shield comes up, so I will crouch-cancel the dash into a downsmash.
Anyone know if tipper dsmash has just as much knockback as a tipper fsmash?

to be clear, dsmash doesnt have as much true ko power as fox's usmash, just knockback. the angle is a fairly decent 10 degrees from fox's at 80 to marth's at 70. i used the formula on the smash wiki, using sheik's weight. all data was drawn from master hand program. they are comparably strong at around 115-120%, i misspoke earlier about it being stronger. is is stronger until just above 105 i believe. marth's unstale tipper dsmash on sheik results in a knockback rating of 241.85 if landed at 100% (116% after hit). fox's unstale usmash on sheik at 100% (118% after dmage) comes out as 244.92. im sure there arent too many great setups for it, but how many people have really tried to find any? obviously dsmash isnt going to become a staple of marth's game, but its a possibly untapped resource. marth struggles to get stray kills, everyone knows this. 5 frames is practically unblockable on reaction, and i dont think its too much of a stretch to say that you could make a good read and land something with the speed of a fox ftilt if you need to pull something out. its not like people ever see it, and its not like youll be using it often enough for them to be present minded about it.

oh and i meant non tipper should be safe on hit at kill percents.

 

[Kadano]

Anyone know if tipper dsmash has just as much knockback as a tipper fsmash?

No, there is a difference. Fsmash has a higher total knockback if the victim has less than 33% before hit. On higher %, dsmash always has more knockback.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Interesting. Looks like I'll be switching to dsmash more for kills.

 

[Strong Badam]

That's relevant only if a character has the same resistance to vertical KOs as they do horizontal KOs. A variety of factors determines that, including falling speed, weight, stage and recovery.

 

[Bones0]

That's relevant only if a character has the same resistance to vertical KOs as they do horizontal KOs. A variety of factors determines that, including falling speed, weight, stage and recovery.

Just to add to the factors list, DI. The difference between a well DIed fsmash and poorly DIed dsmash is a lot bigger than good or bad DI on either. If you're expecting them to DI away mid-combo, a fsmash would probably serve you better than a dsmash. Similarly, if they are landing from a laggy recovery or something and are ready to DI an fsmash, a dsmash will make their upward DI useless.

 

[strawhats]

for those asking about the PPU (marth) vs Shroomed (sheik/doc) sets here ya go: http://www.twitch.tv/meleepacwest/b/370717783. First set starts at 1:45:59. Second set between them starts at 3:04:18

 

[PCwizCube]

for those asking about the PPU (marth) vs Shroomed (sheik/doc) sets here ya go: http://www.twitch.tv/meleepacwest/b/370717783. First set starts at 1:45:59. Second set between them starts at 3:04:18

2nd set, 2nd game, 3 of the 4 stocks, PPU gets ken combos :O so goood

 

[Tee ay eye]

There is no realistic setup for tipper-dsmash that doesn't allow tipper-fsmash too. Fsmash has a larger sweetspot and also slightly larger range. The only viable applcation where it might be better than fsmash is for techchasing certain characters whose techroll length and invincibility duration allow for both the first hit to cover neutral tech and for the second hit to cover a tech roll behind you. I don't know if there is a character that would get tippered in both cases, has anyone here run tests for this yet?

dsmash starts at the bottom and it comes out several frames sooner than fsmash (compounded with the fact that f-smash starts at the top and swings down)

 

[Kadano]

I know, but that was not the point. As strong as the dsmash tipper hurtbubble may be, Marth has no setup for it. If you’re playing a Peach who has about 110%, sure, getting a dsmash would be very nice. But unless you call a spotdodge or a similar move that leaves her in lag on the ground for a few frames, that’s not gonna happen.

 

[BTmoney]

http://youtu.be/RdARTdAhQJQ?t=38s

lol up throw dolphin slash to kill off the top? I've literally never seen that. The up throw was even DI'd away (but of course this won't work against floaties)

 

[EbAgItachi]

Hey PP, I noticed you were using D-tilt super effectively. Do you have any tips for how the best ways/moments to use it are? I can use it perfectly well when edge-guarding, but when it comes to implementing it into my DD and movement mixups I struggle a lot to get the results I want (basically what you were doing, DD --> Dtilt --> DD/Grab). There was one moment where you did something like Dash into D-tilt immediately followed by another dash into D-tilt, you just made it look maaaad smooth, almost like Marth never stopped advancing forward. When I try it, I notice I'll either dash attack or down smash. Whenever I DO manage to get a DD -->d-tilt, my Marth will get stuck there and my attempt to initiate another DD fails misreably

It's his only move that I have a lot of trouble using while maintaing my movement and stage control (unless I'm edge-guarding), and it's very frustrating to lose positional advantage because something as silly as an accidental Dsmash or Dash Attack. Any suggestions as to what I should be doing differently or what you did to get your d-tilts as smooth as you've gotten them?

 

[Bones0]

You can't dtilt during your dash animation. You would have to stop your movement by run cancelling (holding down) before you can do standing moves like dtilt. What you're probably seeing PP do is WDing into the dtilt. Be sure to dtilt out of all of the possible WDs. WD forward, backward, in place, and all the small distances in between. The better you are at controlling your WD, the easier it will be to maintain the best spacing when you want to dtilt.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

dtilt ***** shiek at kill %s wen u hav her off stage and she recovers above u so u can get up from ledge and clip her. Probably quickest option

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, I noticed you were using D-tilt super effectively. Do you have any tips for how the best ways/moments to use it are? I can use it perfectly well when edge-guarding, but when it comes to implementing it into my DD and movement mixups I struggle a lot to get the results I want (basically what you were doing, DD --> Dtilt --> DD/Grab). There was one moment where you did something like Dash into D-tilt immediately followed by another dash into D-tilt, you just made it look maaaad smooth, almost like Marth never stopped advancing forward. When I try it, I notice I'll either dash attack or down smash. Whenever I DO manage to get a DD -->d-tilt, my Marth will get stuck there and my attempt to initiate another DD fails misreably

It's his only move that I have a lot of trouble using while maintaing my movement and stage control (unless I'm edge-guarding), and it's very frustrating to lose positional advantage because something as silly as an accidental Dsmash or Dash Attack. Any suggestions as to what I should be doing differently or what you did to get your d-tilts as smooth as you've gotten them?

Use it from dash cancels ASAP and from WDs mainly, and use it when they aren't expecting it. Good ways to catch someone off guard are to switch methods of Dtilt'ing or act like you want to Dtilt then see what their reaction is and punish that.

Show me the timestamp of what I did and you'll tell you exactly how I did it. =)

You get Dsmashes because you mash the stick down instead of pressing it down more lightly, and you dash attack because you push down too late or too early or you can't Dtilt yet because you didn't dash long enough. Test out on your own how quickly you can Dtilt and try to move off of it as smoothly as possible. It's what I did. =)

 

[EbAgItachi]

You can't dtilt during your dash animation. You would have to stop your movement by run cancelling (holding down) before you can do standing moves like dtilt. What you're probably seeing PP do is WDing into the dtilt. Be sure to dtilt out of all of the possible WDs. WD forward, backward, in place, and all the small distances in between. The better you are at controlling your WD, the easier it will be to maintain the best spacing when you want to dtilt.

Well...**** lol. I just realized that maybe my issue is I can't really tell the difference between his pure DD --> Dtilts vs his DD --> WD --Dtilts. In most cases there's so much movement smoke that I can't see anything that would let me know, and I can't rely on the gameplay audio because the commentater audio is so much louder -_-.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M

So at 25:44, that Dtilt that gives M2k 9%, did PP WD into that or was that purely a DD into a CC Dtilt? Now I feel like a scrub for having to ask whether or not someone WDd. Jesus I'm bad lol.

Use it from dash cancels ASAP and from WDs mainly, and use it when they aren't expecting it. Good ways to catch someone off guard are to switch methods of Dtilt'ing or act like you want to Dtilt then see what their reaction is and punish that.

Show me the timestamp of what I did and you'll tell you exactly how I did it. =)

You get Dsmashes because you mash the stick down instead of pressing it down more lightly, and you dash attack because you push down too late or too early or you can't Dtilt yet because you didn't dash long enough. Test out on your own how quickly you can Dtilt and try to move off of it as smoothly as possible. It's what I did. =)

25:47 - 25:52 .....So it turns out I either saw that sequence incorrectly or remembered it incorrectly, regarldess it's not EXACTLY what I mentioned, but it's somewhat similar. I honestly can't even follow some of your movements in the early stages of that first stock of that match. You're DDs and pivoting in general are just so crisp, crazy stuff. I hope I'm not annoying you by asking for elaborations on these hella specific spurts of movement, I just really envy how refined it is.

Another question though. There are a bunch of times where you'll narrowly avoid all of M2k's attempts of disrupting your movement (mainly his tilts/grabs/SH bair & fair) , but in most cases you just seem to quick for him. How do you maintain such a high speed of evasion without getting clipped at all? Sometimes I can get away with that when I'm really in the zone, but most of the time I get punished for moving around so much. Is that the type of thing that solely depends on how good my opponent is playing, how good my evasion is, both, or what?

My favorite examples are in the last game:
33:16
33:50 - 33:56

My brain melted a bit watching that on the live stream.

 

[Kadano]

25:44 seemed like a foxtrot dtilt to me. See how PP is standing still for a few frames after his dash and before his dtilt animation?
If I can't tell what's happening, I usually download the video and watch the scene with a media player (I use Potplayer, great program) frame by frame.

 

[Dr Peepee]

25:47 - 25:52 .....So it turns out I either saw that sequence incorrectly or remembered it incorrectly, regarldess it's not EXACTLY what I mentioned, but it's somewhat similar. I honestly can't even follow some of your movements in the early stages of that first stock of that match. You're DDs and pivoting in general are just so crisp, crazy stuff. I hope I'm not annoying you by asking for elaborations on these hella specific spurts of movement, I just really envy how refined it is.

Another question though. There are a bunch of times where you'll narrowly avoid all of M2k's attempts of disrupting your movement (mainly his tilts/grabs/SH bair & fair) , but in most cases you just seem to quick for him. How do you maintain such a high speed of evasion without getting clipped at all? Sometimes I can get away with that when I'm really in the zone, but most of the time I get punished for moving around so much. Is that the type of thing that solely depends on how good my opponent is playing, how good my evasion is, both, or what?

My favorite examples are in the last game:
33:16
33:50 - 33:56

My brain melted a bit watching that on the live stream.

Oh nice the videos are online!

As for my movement, I do a long dash in, short dash away, long dash in that I dash cancel Dtilt out of. I use the IASA frames to dash away after I whiff. M2K starts following me and I use very short dashes back in to renew my dash away because I thought he was going to attack and most people don't overcommit that far but he did so I got hit. I was also holding down in case of dash attack at that point which is why the Dsmash happened the way it did lol(unless I tried to pivot shield idk.)

Well Marth is already faster than Sheik so that's something that helps. Aside from that, I know the effective ranges(moves+movement within my reaction time zone) of whatever Sheik+M2K are likely to do. Then, it's simply a matter of getting my moves into those zones before he attacks me or acting like I will attack while staying just out of his effective range or going into it then retreating immediately to avoid his attack.

It's a complicated process lol so I recommend learning effective ranges to start doing what I'm doing. =)

 

[Bones0]

Please call it run cancelling PP. You are spreading misinformation.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

for those asking about the PPU (marth) vs Shroomed (sheik/doc) sets here ya go: http://www.twitch.tv/meleepacwest/b/370717783. First set starts at 1:45:59. Second set between them starts at 3:04:18

good lord thats a beautiful marth

 

[EbAgItachi]

I see. I'll definitely look into that and mess around to figure out what i need to do. Thanks y'all.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Please call it run cancelling PP. You are spreading misinformation.

you're doing a bones thing

 

[Bones0]

You're really going to pigeonhole me like that Dr. Pidgey?

 

[Kadano]

M2K starts following me and I use very short dashes back in to renew my dash away because I thought he was going to attack and most people don't overcommit that far but he did so I got hit.

That was one of rather few times he got you with an overshot attack, though. Incredible job! I love how often you were able to bait him with a close-range dash dance into a dash attack where you still had backing grounds to punish him.

In your first match against his Sheik at 13:48, you dash danced around his dash attack perfectly. However, I believe it was mostly a bad choice on his side that led to your grab. If he had overshot his dash attack so far that he had got you even if you were standing really close to the ledge, your options would have been far more limited. This situation happens at 14:12. Now you have shown us very effective ways to avoid such a situation (best example: 26:18 where you keep foxtrotting to quickly turn directions when you call him committing to an approach. You didn't get to punish him, but it's a very impressive way to deal with approaching Sheiks), but what are good options when you're already stuck near the ledge?
My personal guess: (a) If he's going for a dash attack: sh bair out of retreating dash. Bair instead of fair because the hitbox comes out sooner where you want it, and it doesn't put Marth's feet hurtbubbles in such a terrible spot.
(b) If he does a run canceled dsmash: If your shield is still fresh, I say shieldgrab, but if not, I don't know. Shielding always has the risk of being pushed down to the ledge, though, and Marth doesn't have the easiest time getting back up on the stage safely.
If he jumps into the air to later come down with a fair: I think this situation needs further differentiation. (c) In case he is already coming down, I really have no idea. Shielding makes you vulnerable to fair -> jabs, which can easily poke your shield, leading to her getting a fair at medium-high %. Even if you try to buffer a roll, her jab will hit you before you become invincible.
(d) If he is still in the rising motion of his jump, I think quickly dashing behind him and hitting him with a fair or bair is the best option.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Random thoughts from the Crimson Blur:

Side B is incredible and we're all terrible

For as much as we talk about the meta evolving, a lot has been lost with time.

Focus on fundamentals.

If you don't know how to press left, and then right, or alternatively right, then left, you should probably play a different character

Melee tournaments are often a test of who is the least bad, not the most good.

A poorly thought-out gameplan will lead to poorly executed gameplay. Think through everything, even if it seems impractical.

Practice in your room you lazy *******

PP's marth is a slap in the face to every active Marth main. Thats a good thing, though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That was one of rather few times he got you with an overshot attack, though. Incredible job! I love how often you were able to bait him with a close-range dash dance into a dash attack where you still had backing grounds to punish him.

In your first match against his Sheik at 13:48, you dash danced around his dash attack perfectly. However, I believe it was mostly a bad choice on his side that led to your grab. If he had overshot his dash attack so far that he had got you even if you were standing really close to the ledge, your options would have been far more limited. This situation happens at 14:12. Now you have shown us very effective ways to avoid such a situation (best example: 26:18 where you keep foxtrotting to quickly turn directions when you call him committing to an approach. You didn't get to punish him, but it's a very impressive way to deal with approaching Sheiks), but what are good options when you're already stuck near the ledge?
My personal guess: (a) If he's going for a dash attack: sh bair out of retreating dash. Bair instead of fair because the hitbox comes out sooner where you want it, and it doesn't put Marth's feet hurtbubbles in such a terrible spot.
(b) If he does a run canceled dsmash: If your shield is still fresh, I say shieldgrab, but if not, I don't know. Shielding always has the risk of being pushed down to the ledge, though, and Marth doesn't have the easiest time getting back up on the stage safely.
If he jumps into the air to later come down with a fair: I think this situation needs further differentiation. (c) In case he is already coming down, I really have no idea. Shielding makes you vulnerable to fair -> jabs, which can easily poke your shield, leading to her getting a fair at medium-high %. Even if you try to buffer a roll, her jab will hit you before you become invincible.
(d) If he is still in the rising motion of his jump, I think quickly dashing behind him and hitting him with a fair or bair is the best option.

If I'm near the edge, I like WD'ing or doing very tight DDs more because both can be pretty explosive and allow you to change position quickly and basically surprise your opponent. You have to take risks like that because you can't dash away very far. Playing slower can be cool too since Sheik still has a really difficult time challenging Marth's range on approach. If I'm already running away, then I may WD into Sheik sometimes and I'll be holding down to beat dash attack and hopefully go past SHs or grabs. If my percent is too high for that, then ideally I'd pivot shield to handle dash attack and Dsmash, which loses to grab and kinda to SH Fair(though I guess I should WD OOS if I see Sheik jump or maybe Fair idk I haven't experimented with the situation much I usually froze up lol.....freaking Fair timing mixups.)

This is part will depend on percent, momentum, stage(I could use platforms,) and just how close to the edge I am(positioning.) I elaborated on percent and stage a little in my post because I felt they were most relevant.

 

[PB&J]

Follow me on twitch http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23

Im going to be streaming PM and Melee pretty often

thanks in advance

 

[Deleted member]

Random thoughts from the Crimson Blur:

Side B is incredible and we're all terrible

For as much as we talk about the meta evolving, a lot has been lost with time.

Focus on fundamentals.

If you don't know how to press left, and then right, or alternatively right, then left, you should probably play a different character

Melee tournaments are often a test of who is the least bad, not the most good.

A poorly thought-out gameplan will lead to poorly executed gameplay. Think through everything, even if it seems impractical.

Practice in your room you lazy *******

PP's marth is a slap in the face to every active Marth main. Thats a good thing, though.

hey the first post in like 4 months that i enjoyed.

too bad no one will learn from it though.

 

[Anand]

LOL, my first reaction upon seeing that post was "ugh, that almost looks like another Umbreon post" (no offense).

 

[Deleted member]

i usually see people being offended at my posts as an indicator for one's ability to respond favorably to criticism. i rarely see anyone meaningfully disagree with the content of my ideas.


i also see the ability to respond favorably to criticism as an indicator of intelligence, so most of the time i phrase my ideas with loaded emotional text so i can goldfish the audience to gauge them.

i'm not even subtle about it really.

 

[Dr Peepee]

max why do you disagree with mr sirlin

edit: go to bed

 

[Anand]

Oh, I was actually mostly referring to "left, and then right" and "least bad" in particular; not because they were offensive but because those phrases seemed like things you would say.

What does it mean to "goldfish the audience"?

 

[Deleted member]

max why do you disagree with mr sirlin

edit: go to bed

you're bad.

sirlin is bad.

playing to win tells you "it's okay to forego learning for this occasion" and then sirlin says "it's always okay to forego learning". terrible advice.

i'm glad you lost that second set to armada as marth. you obviously learned more by not trying your hardest once you knew you could beat him if you wanted to. the lesson was worth the difference in prize money imo

play to learn. hell, play to lose before you play to win.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMAO I love the way you write.

Playing to learn is indeed amazing! I also agree being able to accept losses is good for tournament success, so your play to lose advice is strong too.

Just like in the arguments of old, playing to win always helps train one for tournament environments and that's important, but I'd think all types of training are best for success.

 

[Deleted member]

you're just mad that i can explain the discrepancy between you and your brother in terms of ability.

although that might also borderline on abuse too.

i'm pretty sure you need a sincere desire to make people suffer to play falco though.